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Author Topic: Creating Dominion  (Read 207086 times)

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yed

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #375 on: April 26, 2016, 02:01:42 am »
+1

Did you move to London? :-)
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« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 02:03:41 am by yed »
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ackmondual

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #376 on: April 26, 2016, 02:39:01 am »
0

Anyway, as I said, cautious optimism. Everything promised sounds cool, I like the pricing model (seriously I don't have to worry about paying anything for almost 20 months from now, and after that it's less than the price of a tube of Pringles per month). I just worry about how quickly and how well it will be made by two guys.

FWIW, more isn't always better for these sorts of things.  Larger studios can be quite expensive... perhaps beyond the budgets of those involved.  Folks online who claim to be in the know have said working in teams larger than 2 people can get exponentially more expensive. 
Larger studios move slower, and collaboration in larger settings can be cumbersome.  If your software is an OS or like Open Office where we're at millions of lines of code, or some enterprise/multi-million $ projects that span hundreds of thousands of lines of code, then it's a tall order for 2 people.  Otherwise, while Dominion isn't trivial, it should still be a project that can be tackled within due time.  AFAIK, the 2 have at least until Jan. of 2017?  That's still 7 months.  Perhaps longer.  And they did mention they're doing this FT for the time being.
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Awaclus

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #377 on: April 26, 2016, 05:59:47 am »
+2

my latest productions have been quite well-received internationally and I have some experience in making music specifically for video games as well.

Links?  I mean, I'm interested for myself, not for SCSN and Stef.  But they might be interested too.

Both of the games that I've made music for are still works in progress (actually I'm not sure if either one is ever going to get finished; they're not commercial projects) so I can't link to those. The point of mentioning that wasn't so much "I've made all this amazing video game music" but mostly just that I am familiar with some of the concepts you have to take into account when making music for games. My band's latest album (which you can download for free) is linked in my signature. We're not super famous, but the few reviews we've gotten have been great (and totally unexpected), including a 9/10 from Folkmetalmagazine, a "This year's most distinctive a pioneer of experimental folk metal works" (Google translated from Chinese, also you have to scroll down a bit) from 西陆孤楼, and  this review from Frecuancias en el Espacio which doesn't have a rating or a convenient bottom line to quote, but it's pretty positive overall. It's also being played on Radio Pogo.

There's also my YouTube channel, which is also linked in my signature, where I make other genres of music in addition to a lot of metal as well, as a solo project.
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singletee

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #378 on: April 26, 2016, 07:19:08 pm »
+3

I have a feature request: being able to see your own hand when Possessing someone.

Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #379 on: April 26, 2016, 07:23:33 pm »
0

I have a feature request: being able to see your own hand when Possessing someone.

But then we'll lose the thrill of receiving that information via subliminal message!
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SCSN

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #380 on: April 26, 2016, 07:25:33 pm »
+3

So, here's a question that's been eating at me. Who's creating the art assets for the "pretty" version? Is either of you an artist? Do you have some sort of seed money that you can use to contract a third party? In order for this version to succeed with anybody but diehard fans, I think it needs to have good production values. MakingFun's version has stability issues and lacks features we wish it had, but I have to admit it looks good. What's your plan there?

EDIT: Likewise, who's doing the sound/music?

From what I understood, this isn't just SCSN and Stef working, but that they founded a company that has some other people working. I'm not sure where I got this but that is what I understood

Well uh certainly that's possible, but I've heard nothing of the sort. Founding a company doesn't mean they hired more workers. Hell I'm an incorporated company myself, from the period where I was doing freelance consulting. And hiring or contracting others would require significant capital.

We don't have employees but we won't be doing every single task ourselves either. And while I have some experience with an industry standard professional design suite*, it's conceivable that we'll bring in a graphical artist/designer at some point as well.

*Having to correct basic misconceptions about Java quickly teaches you the great virtues of empty words.
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SCSN

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #381 on: April 26, 2016, 07:29:28 pm »
+9

I have a feature request: being able to see your own hand when Possessing someone.

Don't push it.
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ackmondual

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #382 on: April 27, 2016, 02:51:26 am »
0

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.
And what steep price would that be?  Still $90?  Not to rub salt in the wounds, but MF didn't last long enough for that to pay off.


I honestly think RG is setting themselves up for s class action lawsuit.

....

What they are doing now counts on a court saying that all liability lies with MakingFun. It's possible but I wouldn't count on that if I was Jay.

Are you... serious?  Like, actually serious?  There aren't enough people to form a large class, there isn't a lawyer in the country who would take a class action suit with a maximum payout under a million dollars, and MF's terms, as noted by drsteelhammer, are pretty clear that nothing of the sort was promised, and any lawyer will laugh in your face if even if they were willing to take a very small class action to court.

Sure, I'm not actually a lawyer, but I bet theory will back me up on this assessment of how CA suits work...

And all this to get back $60 per person.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #383 on: April 28, 2016, 04:45:17 pm »
0

Just wanted to say that I'm very excited about this news.  My only concern, which was voiced above, is that 2 very dedicated Dominion players may not understand the casual player, and I hope that person will be kept in mind.  But I think it's great that two people who love the game are going to be working on it and can't wait for the first day of a real implementation.
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ackmondual

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #384 on: April 30, 2016, 04:49:55 pm »
0

Just wanted to say that I'm very excited about this news.  My only concern, which was voiced above, is that 2 very dedicated Dominion players may not understand the casual player, and I hope that person will be kept in mind.  But I think it's great that two people who love the game are going to be working on it and can't wait for the first day of a real implementation.
To be fair, does anybody really understand the casual player?  I'm not sure anybody here (on a site called Dominion Strategy) would classify as "casual", but if there were, I'd reckon there wouldn't be that many such folks.

AFAIK, they play a free version online or offline.  If they never want to bother paying for anything, they either get bored and move on to something else, or continue playing the base game.  I presume the server costs for such folks wouldn't go up by THAT much.  I do wonder how many folks will end up converting to paid models, to get access to expansions.  It sounds like some of these casual gamers aren't even "real board gamers", so that's another layer to get through.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #385 on: April 30, 2016, 09:37:36 pm »
+1

wow....

It's kind of like everything coming full circle.

This is so weird, but good weird.
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popsofctown

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #386 on: April 30, 2016, 09:38:04 pm »
+1

It's not april first or something is it?
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Skandrino

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #387 on: May 01, 2016, 01:46:03 am »
+1

So I paid $90 for all the expansions 1 month ago. The value of 1 year of online plus all the expansions offline under the new model will be $36+around $50 = approximately $90. Then surely those of us who have bought everything could at least get both 1 year of online and permanent offline? Why would we only get one of those?

If you buy any computer game in the shop with online mode then you can't expect to be able to play it online forever, but at least you will get to play it offline forever and online for at least 2 years. I can't imagine that any title will have been online for less than 2 years and invite everyone to think of an example. I can even still play my FIFA 12 online. If a game would go offline that soon then normally you would be offered a refund.

So even if we get a year of online and permanent offline (the very minimum which is reasonable I think) then we would get less than what we could normally have expected when buying the game, but I could live with that.
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Skandrino

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #388 on: May 01, 2016, 02:04:12 am »
0

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.

The thing about subscriptions is, you don't have to pay every month!  Shit hit the fan IRL?  Cancel for the next few months, bam, done.  You could request/suggest that the free year be allowed to be taken as 12 months, I suppose.

And yes, you could argue that a donation model might work.  But how many people will donate to server costs?  Would they need a yearly donation drive like BGG or Wikipedia?  How quickly would that start to hurt?  I personally would rather have a sustainable service, and $3 a month is an incredible price point.

Both groups have a point.

MakingFun's model was a bad one. But that didn't stop Rio Grand from making the deal with them. So there is some responsibility there.

The "contract" MF made with players was "buy this product and get to use it online forever". Note that the price they charged was VERY VERY high. Normal online games are nowhere close to $90 for the "full service". Also note that server costs are low and getting cheaper everyday. Most costs for an online service are one-time fixed costs. So the one time charge is less crazy than it sounds (more bad from a revenue perspective than due to cost structure)

I think people who paid $90 for a specific thing are right to be pissed off that those contracts are being thrown away and replaced with a vastly weaker product: Either less than half the functionality or only one year of service (and still less functionality).

I honestly think RG is setting themselves up for s class action lawsuit.

I think there best options at this point are:

1- Offer full refunds to original buyers
2- Offer free lifetime service to original buyers (expansions purchased)

If they were willing to take more risks they could offer the $90 as credit on the new platform (likely after getting people to sign a contract promising not to sue). But even that is a little risky.

What they are doing now counts on a court saying that all liability lies with MakingFun. It's possible but I wouldn't count on that if I was Jay.

Ed

Here is the Mf policy:

Virtual Currencies and Goods

The Service may include a virtual, in-game currency (“Virtual Currency”) including, but not limited to coins, cash, or points that may be purchased for actual money if you are a legal adult in your country of residence. Examples of Virtual Currency include, but are not limited to, “Ducats” in Dominion, “Tickets” in Hidden Express, “Gems” in Mage and Minions, and “Gold” in BloodRealm. The Service may also include virtual, in-game digital items (“Virtual Goods”) that may be purchased from Making Fun for actual money or for Virtual Currency. Regardless of the terminology used, Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods may never be redeemed for actual money, goods or other items of monetary value from Making Fun or any other party.

Other than a limited, personal, revocable, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable and non-exclusive license to use the Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency within the Service, you have no right or title in or to any such Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency appearing or originating within the Service, or any other attributes associated with use of the Service or stored within the Service.

Making Fun has the absolute right, but not the obligation, to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and Making Fun shall have no liability to you or any third party for the exercise of such rights.

Transfers of Virtual Currencies and Virtual Goods are strictly prohibited except where explicitly authorized within the Service. Outside of the game, you may not buy or sell any Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods for “real world” money or other items of value. Any attempt to do so is in violation of these Terms and may result in a lifetime ban from the Service and possible legal action.

You agree that all sales of Virtual Goods and Virtual Currencies are final. No refunds will be given, except in our sole and absolute discretion. All Virtual Goods and Virtual Currencies are forfeited if your Account is terminated or suspended for any reason, in Making Fun’s sole and absolute discretion, or if Making Fun discontinues providing the Service or the Game where the Virtual Goods or Virtual Currencies were obtained.


I am no lawyer, but this looks pretty clear to me. They never promised you anything of that sort, and you're not even entitled to the first year of online Dominion.

Wow I have never seen such ridiculous terms of service. "You buy virtual goods for $90, but we have the right to 'eliminate' them at our sole discretion without refund"? That's like iTunes saying "We may delete any music you have bought whenever we want". These terms are clearly invalid under unfair contract term laws.
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ackmondual

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #389 on: May 01, 2016, 03:28:18 am »
0

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.

The thing about subscriptions is, you don't have to pay every month!  Shit hit the fan IRL?  Cancel for the next few months, bam, done.  You could request/suggest that the free year be allowed to be taken as 12 months, I suppose.

And yes, you could argue that a donation model might work.  But how many people will donate to server costs?  Would they need a yearly donation drive like BGG or Wikipedia?  How quickly would that start to hurt?  I personally would rather have a sustainable service, and $3 a month is an incredible price point.

Both groups have a point.

MakingFun's model was a bad one. But that didn't stop Rio Grand from making the deal with them. So there is some responsibility there.

The "contract" MF made with players was "buy this product and get to use it online forever". Note that the price they charged was VERY VERY high. Normal online games are nowhere close to $90 for the "full service". Also note that server costs are low and getting cheaper everyday. Most costs for an online service are one-time fixed costs. So the one time charge is less crazy than it sounds (more bad from a revenue perspective than due to cost structure)

I think people who paid $90 for a specific thing are right to be pissed off that those contracts are being thrown away and replaced with a vastly weaker product: Either less than half the functionality or only one year of service (and still less functionality).

I honestly think RG is setting themselves up for s class action lawsuit.

I think there best options at this point are:

1- Offer full refunds to original buyers
2- Offer free lifetime service to original buyers (expansions purchased)

If they were willing to take more risks they could offer the $90 as credit on the new platform (likely after getting people to sign a contract promising not to sue). But even that is a little risky.

What they are doing now counts on a court saying that all liability lies with MakingFun. It's possible but I wouldn't count on that if I was Jay.

Ed

Here is the Mf policy:

Virtual Currencies and Goods

The Service may include a virtual, in-game currency (“Virtual Currency”) including, but not limited to coins, cash, or points that may be purchased for actual money if you are a legal adult in your country of residence. Examples of Virtual Currency include, but are not limited to, “Ducats” in Dominion, “Tickets” in Hidden Express, “Gems” in Mage and Minions, and “Gold” in BloodRealm. The Service may also include virtual, in-game digital items (“Virtual Goods”) that may be purchased from Making Fun for actual money or for Virtual Currency. Regardless of the terminology used, Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods may never be redeemed for actual money, goods or other items of monetary value from Making Fun or any other party.

Other than a limited, personal, revocable, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable and non-exclusive license to use the Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency within the Service, you have no right or title in or to any such Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency appearing or originating within the Service, or any other attributes associated with use of the Service or stored within the Service.

Making Fun has the absolute right, but not the obligation, to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and Making Fun shall have no liability to you or any third party for the exercise of such rights.

Transfers of Virtual Currencies and Virtual Goods are strictly prohibited except where explicitly authorized within the Service. Outside of the game, you may not buy or sell any Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods for “real world” money or other items of value. Any attempt to do so is in violation of these Terms and may result in a lifetime ban from the Service and possible legal action.

You agree that all sales of Virtual Goods and Virtual Currencies are final. No refunds will be given, except in our sole and absolute discretion. All Virtual Goods and Virtual Currencies are forfeited if your Account is terminated or suspended for any reason, in Making Fun’s sole and absolute discretion, or if Making Fun discontinues providing the Service or the Game where the Virtual Goods or Virtual Currencies were obtained.


I am no lawyer, but this looks pretty clear to me. They never promised you anything of that sort, and you're not even entitled to the first year of online Dominion.

Wow I have never seen such ridiculous terms of service. "You buy virtual goods for $90, but we have the right to 'eliminate' them at our sole discretion without refund"? That's like iTunes saying "We may delete any music you have bought whenever we want". These terms are clearly invalid under unfair contract term laws.
I believe that's already the deal with apps... if the developer closes shop, Apple pulls their apps from the iOS AppStore.  If you didn't keep a backup copy of it, then you won't ever be able to DL it again... even if you spent $$ to buy it in the first place.
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Titandrake

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #390 on: May 01, 2016, 03:44:18 am »
+1

Quote
A huge quote pyramid I don't want to keep re-quoting

Wow I have never seen such ridiculous terms of service. "You buy virtual goods for $90, but we have the right to 'eliminate' them at our sole discretion without refund"? That's like iTunes saying "We may delete any music you have bought whenever we want". These terms are clearly invalid under unfair contract term laws.

By my understanding, iTunes (and other stores) essentially have this power already. Valve is allowed to delete games from your Steam library without your permission. iTunes is allowed to delete songs you've bought. They don't, because the customer backlash would be insane, but they reserve the option, and you've agreed to it.

If I'm wrong, link me the portion of the EULA that disproves me. I'm genuinely curious to hear if things have swung the other way on digital ownership.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #391 on: May 01, 2016, 04:38:17 am »
+2

I don't think I've ever seen an EULA for any comparable service that doesn't grant the company the right to completely screw their paying customers in every imaginable way.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #392 on: May 01, 2016, 04:51:12 am »
+10

So I paid $90 for all the expansions 1 month ago. The value of 1 year of online plus all the expansions offline under the new model will be $36+around $50 = approximately $90. Then surely those of us who have bought everything could at least get both 1 year of online and permanent offline? Why would we only get one of those?

I think the reason is that SCSN and Stef have to eat.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #393 on: May 01, 2016, 05:13:51 am »
+8

So I paid $90 for all the expansions 1 month ago. The value of 1 year of online plus all the expansions offline under the new model will be $36+around $50 = approximately $90. Then surely those of us who have bought everything could at least get both 1 year of online and permanent offline? Why would we only get one of those?

If you buy any computer game in the shop with online mode then you can't expect to be able to play it online forever, but at least you will get to play it offline forever and online for at least 2 years. I can't imagine that any title will have been online for less than 2 years and invite everyone to think of an example. I can even still play my FIFA 12 online. If a game would go offline that soon then normally you would be offered a refund.

So even if we get a year of online and permanent offline (the very minimum which is reasonable I think) then we would get less than what we could normally have expected when buying the game, but I could live with that.
You're implicitly counting 9 months on the current system as worth $0. I understand the feeling but I mean as long as you're doing the math, I would include that term.

We did not anticipate that there would be much demand for having both offline and online play. Currently there is no offline play at all; thus initially there was not going to be an option to get offline sets instead of a year online (someone promised you online play; no-one promised you offline play). The option is there to try to be friendlier to the people who just want to play against bots.

We hoped to do better for existing customers; the huge disparity between money-taken-in and money-that-made-it-to-us made that plan flee-to-south-america bad. Jay and I will already be out more money than we've ever made from online Dominion, to get existing customers what they're getting. The deal with supporting existing customers is contractual; we can't just change it. For sure we will not negotiate a worse deal for ourselves to give existing customers more. That sounds so evil. Did I mention we will already be out more money than we've ever made from online Dominion? In order to provide the portion we can of a promise that someone else made to our fans.

We can't stop MF from continuing to sell the program this year; it's just something we have to live with.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #394 on: May 01, 2016, 02:57:57 pm »
+5

Wow I have never seen such ridiculous terms of service. "You buy virtual goods for $90, but we have the right to 'eliminate' them at our sole discretion without refund"? That's like iTunes saying "We may delete any music you have bought whenever we want". These terms are clearly invalid under unfair contract term laws.

Um... this sort of thing is common in every online game I've ever played.  Botting in Hearthstone?  Banned, all your stuff is gone.  Selling gold in WOW (or similar currency in other MMOs)?  Banned, all your stuff is gone.  Being such a complete asshole in DOTA that you get reported multiple times per game?  Banned, all your stuff is gone.

If you buy any computer game in the shop with online mode then you can't expect to be able to play it online forever, but at least you will get to play it offline forever and online for at least 2 years. I can't imagine that any title will have been online for less than 2 years and invite everyone to think of an example. I can even still play my FIFA 12 online. If a game would go offline that soon then normally you would be offered a refund.

As any person in the American south would say, "Well, bless your heart."  This is the sort of naivete I would only expect from a teenager, or maybe a young twentysomething not yet finished with college.

And hey, maybe you fit one of those descriptions, there are a lot of people in that age range on the forums.  In which case, excellent! You have learned a lesson about the real world.
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ackmondual

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #395 on: May 01, 2016, 06:02:33 pm »
0

So I paid $90 for all the expansions 1 month ago. The value of 1 year of online plus all the expansions offline under the new model will be $36+around $50 = approximately $90. Then surely those of us who have bought everything could at least get both 1 year of online and permanent offline? Why would we only get one of those?

I think the reason is that SCSN and Stef have to eat.
Frankly, I was surprised that they even offered that much to begin with to the MF customers, as giving away even that much seems to be a strain on their operations (remember that we'd like this to be a sustainable one?).  Any $$ users paid to MF sure as heck isn't going to SCCN and Stef.  Nor Donald X, nor RGG.
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blueblimp

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #396 on: May 01, 2016, 07:32:05 pm »
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I gotta admit that I am surprised that RGG & Donald X are stuck with not only footing the bill for purchase transfers but actually end up spending more on that than whatever they got as a licensing fee. Rough deal.
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ConMan

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #397 on: May 01, 2016, 07:39:56 pm »
0

Wow I have never seen such ridiculous terms of service. "You buy virtual goods for $90, but we have the right to 'eliminate' them at our sole discretion without refund"? That's like iTunes saying "We may delete any music you have bought whenever we want". These terms are clearly invalid under unfair contract term laws.

Um... this sort of thing is common in every online game I've ever played.  Botting in Hearthstone?  Banned, all your stuff is gone.  Selling gold in WOW (or similar currency in other MMOs)?  Banned, all your stuff is gone.  Being such a complete asshole in DOTA that you get reported multiple times per game?  Banned, all your stuff is gone.
Not to mention the occasions where Amazon removed ebooks from people's Kindles, in one instance because they discovered that the person selling 1984 didn't actually have an appropriate licence for it, and in another when they claimed the person's account was somehow associated with an abuse of their rules so they wiped everything.
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Rabid

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #398 on: May 01, 2016, 07:42:36 pm »
+6

Will it be possible to not take either transfer option and save RGG some money?
As I have had the sets for years I would be happy to pay again.
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Watno

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #399 on: May 01, 2016, 07:51:08 pm »
0

Being such a complete asshole in DOTA that you get reported multiple times per game?  Banned, all your stuff is gone.

Actually, that's not how it works. You just lose the ability to chat and only get matched up with other asshats. You can still wear your hats though.
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