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Author Topic: Creating Dominion  (Read 207014 times)

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Accatitippi

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #325 on: April 23, 2016, 06:14:06 am »
0

As a slowish player, I beg you not to enforce timed games on everybody (unless the time limit is pretty generous).
I understand those people that want their plays to move along fast, but playing fast extremely reduces my enjoyment of Dominion. Adding a preference for the time limit (fast vs slow) in a way similar to how vp counters work now would keep everybody happy, I guess, but at the cost of slower matchups.

As a player that likes to take his time to make a play I am interested what you consider slowish?
There are some morons that start insulting you, if you take 10 seconds to look at the board and other people that take forever for some reason.
Imho a player should time out a lot faster, if he does not perform any action whatsoever and is clearly not present. I am perfectly fine with people taking their time, but some people are clearly doing something else, besides playing the game. In fact in a particular slow game I decided to start cooking and coming back every 5 or even more minutes was not a problem at all, which really should not be possible.
As it is you can very much make the other player resign, if you so desire. I did this to a player, which starting insulting me after the mentioned 10 seconds. If you want to you can take a really really long time for each of your turns without timing out.

I too have played with a few people who jerkishly make remarks about how slow I allegedly am. I never leave the pc while playing (except the occasional brb), and I never play deliberately slow to make people resign. (and I think there are no excuses for such behaviors, not even the other player insulting you.)  :)

I have no idea about how slow I am, due to lack of information about how slow the rest of the world is.

OTOH, I have hardly ever thought that another player was slow, except those cases you described of people being deliberately annoying. This might mean that I'm the slowest of the bunch, or that I'm more tolerant than average, who knows.
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SCSN

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #326 on: April 23, 2016, 06:49:56 am »
+18

As a slowish player, I beg you not to enforce timed games on everybody (unless the time limit is pretty generous).

Stef mentioned timed games in the context of user-created tournaments. If you want to make, say, a 16-player single-game knock-out tournament last at most 2 hours, you have to enforce some maximum game length on the individual rounds (say, 30 minutes). What these limits are and whether there are limits at all is entirely up to the creator of the tournament, and it's then up to individual players to only join tournaments with time limits that appeal to them.

It's out of the question that we'll apply such time limits to ordinary Dominion games.

What we will do is take an active stance against abusive stallers, starting with giving their opponent the option to make them resign (like iso had) but also by introducing a report function that will flag a time-stamped game + chat log for manual inspection. If we agree there was indeed abusive stalling these users will get warned, and repeat offenders could either be subjected to a personal clock or maybe even have their ability to play against humans temporarily revoked. We want to create a fun environment and people who take two minutes for each Copper play or sprout profanities in chat are not a part of that idea.
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SCSN

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #327 on: April 23, 2016, 06:55:00 am »
+2

What language/framework are you using?  Unity, Java, magnetized needle?

So far we've been using Java, Clojure, JavaScript and HTML5/CSS3.
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Kirian

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #328 on: April 23, 2016, 04:03:16 pm »
0

What language/framework are you using?  Unity, Java, magnetized needle?

So far we've been using Java, Clojure, JavaScript and HTML5/CSS3.


So is it going back to browser then?  Is mobile play going to be affected?
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SCSN

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #329 on: April 23, 2016, 04:10:24 pm »
+3

There will be both desktop, browser and mobile clients.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #330 on: April 24, 2016, 08:42:29 am »
0

There will be both desktop, browser and mobile clients.

Will all those clients use the same back-end code and just be different front-ends?
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Accatitippi

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #331 on: April 24, 2016, 10:01:58 am »
+3

I didn't see any trace of this on bgg, so I wrote this thread:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22489541#22489541
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #332 on: April 24, 2016, 03:58:50 pm »
+7

I didn't see any trace of this on bgg, so I wrote this thread:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22489541#22489541

I posted on BGG. They moved it to the video game forum which doesn't link to the main Dominion forum. I emailed the moderator that moved it, telling him that it was an important thread and needed to be in the main Dominion thread, but he never responded.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #333 on: April 24, 2016, 06:22:50 pm »
+3

I've just seen this thread now, and having skimmed most of the thread I think that my feelings are the same as a lot of users here - cautious optimism. With two renowned Dominion players at the helm I'm sure that features we here want will be well implemented... but I do have to wonder how well the other side will be. How well do you two know what the casual audience is actually after? How will you attract enough casual players to subscribe? There's also the logistical side of things. From what I can see you're suggesting a lot of different clients/variations - a high image one, a low image one, an offline version, a web browser one, an Android one, an iPhone one. That's quite a lot for two people to manage. I'm sure you've thought it through to some degree and know what you're doing but still, it worries me that maybe you're biting off more than you can chew. Then again, I don't know just how experienced you two are as programmers, especially for online gaming.

Anyway, as I said, cautious optimism. Everything promised sounds cool, I like the pricing model (seriously I don't have to worry about paying anything for almost 20 months from now, and after that it's less than the price of a tube of Pringles per month). I just worry about how quickly and how well it will be made by two guys.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Kirian

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #334 on: April 24, 2016, 09:03:58 pm »
+1

Anyway, as I said, cautious optimism. Everything promised sounds cool, I like the pricing model (seriously I don't have to worry about paying anything for almost 20 months from now, and after that it's less than the price of a tube of Pringles per month).

Pringles may be perhaps the least appealing "give this up once a month" suggestion I've heard.

Quote
I just worry about how quickly and how well it will be made by two guys.

Well, they already have at least one working client and a working backend, and presumably it already plays over the internet because I'm guessing they didn't fly from the Netherlands to Arizona just to show it to Jay.  That took them two months.  So, if they spend another two months on each other client... they'll still have quite a few done in December.
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iamsparticus

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #335 on: April 25, 2016, 12:54:59 am »
+1

I'm not a huge fan of the subscription, but offering people a free year to make up for the implied promise of having bought everything forever is reasonable enough so I won't beat the horse to death. I really like the idea of purchasing a lifelong (well implementation long) subscription, at the least I'd hope for the ability to have year long subscriptions ($30 a year vs $3 a month?).

I'm sure you will have all of the cards implemented and good autoplay features so I have no problems there. Dominion shouldn't be the hardest thing to program, and you did a great job on the patches, so I have no doubt that the finished product will play very smoothly.

Other areas of feedback

1. I strongly hope for a return to a forum based system. Being able to lay my own game down and only play with the type of people I wanted to play (of similar ranking, playing by the same VP settings) was tremendous. This also allows for tournaments / league play to be far more organized. At the very least I hope that if everyone draws from the same play-pool that I will have the ability to play people who are good/similarly ranked. None of this within 1000 points nonsense.
2. Please no global chat, it's terrible. I haven't seen a single useful comment on it, and I don't want to see it.
3. Events. For the standard game I don't want events to be included all of the time. I view them like colony/platinum or ruins, they shouldn't be present for every game.
4. The game logs sound excellent. I hope there will also be good isotropish like rankings and the ability to search for game logs. Not sure if this is something that would be hosted by your client, but hopefully it will at least be compatible for it.
5. I'm not a huge fan of different tiers. If it really ends up only being $3 a month, or maybe $4-5 a month when all cards are released, either you'll pay that amount or you'll be at the free tier. I can't imagine too many people paying $2 for only an expansion or two. I think free players are brought into the game by having the base set, and being able to play with all of the other cards their opponent has. If they really like the game, they'll then pay for it. This also allows paid users to have more opponents. I also need the option to play a game online with more than base set cards if I stand a chance of convincing friends to join online, additionally I consider it one of the best features of being a member that I can play with my friends online whether they want to subscribe or not. Other ways could certainly work, but I think this is one of the few areas that the other online implementations had right.
6. There are a lot of people who seem like they will take the offline version, and never play online. Would it make sense to give a free month online with the offline service so that people at least give the subscription model a shot?
7. If you don't make animations sparkle enough, it will ruin the game for casual users.
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JW

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #336 on: April 25, 2016, 01:16:51 am »
+1

3. Events. For the standard game I don't want events to be included all of the time. I view them like colony/platinum or ruins, they shouldn't be present for every game.

If you have all Kingdom cards, a little over half of random games will have at least one event. See the below numbers which predate Summon as a 21st event.

I assume in "full random" it will be: add events randomly along with kingdom cards until there are 10 Kingdom cards, perhaps to a maximum of 2 events.

Using negative binomial approximation (Excel has no built in negative hypergeometric distribution? Appalling!), and the above method, the chance of more than 2 events (with 235 kingdom cards and 20 events) is only 6.2%.

I should have actually used negative hyper geometric instead of a naive binomial in my last post. Real probabilities are (for all cards):

0 events: 43.5%
1 event: 35.5%
2+ events: 21.0%
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RevanFan

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #337 on: April 25, 2016, 01:21:23 am »
0

Two questions.

1. Will we be able to modify the likelihood of more events, say two or three, being pulled?

2. Will you include an option for the fancy base cards? I much prefer the artwork on the fancy base cards to the plain ones.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #338 on: April 25, 2016, 02:13:13 am »
0

7. If you don't make animations sparkle enough, it will ruin the game for casual users.

I highly doubt that.
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Mavy2k

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #339 on: April 25, 2016, 02:56:31 am »
0

7. If you don't make animations sparkle enough, it will ruin the game for casual users.

I highly doubt that.

Your averall post seems solid, so I just asume you´re trying to troll us with the last statement.
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iamsparticus

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #340 on: April 25, 2016, 05:23:13 am »
0

Your averall post seems solid, so I just asume you´re trying to troll us with the last statement.
[/quote]

Yes, and to point out the mistakes they won't be making. Also I apprently don't know how to quote properly, oh well.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 05:24:17 am by iamsparticus »
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Joseph2302

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #341 on: April 25, 2016, 08:19:30 am »
0

Fantastic news, finally Dominion Online is being run with people 100% committed to Dominion (which we haven't had since Isotropic).

One minor question: will there be a way to pay not in $? Because if I pay in $, my bank charges me like a 3% currency conversion fee.
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pst

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #342 on: April 25, 2016, 08:58:37 am »
+2

5. I'm not a huge fan of different tiers. If it really ends up only being $3 a month, or maybe $4-5 a month when all cards are released, either you'll pay that amount or you'll be at the free tier. I can't imagine too many people paying $2 for only an expansion or two.

I can. Especially if it's not easy to avoid playing with all the cards you own. "We" want to play with all the cards, but I think many players would like to limit themselves so there are at most a couple of "new" cards in a game. Making fun has a setting to allow cards you don't own or not. I wonder how many has that turned off.

Not owning everything is one way to keep it simpler. Preferrably there should be better ways. I think that ideally the game should keep track of what cards each player is supposed to know (maybe has played with a couple of times) and make sure to not overwhelm a player who hasn't said "give me the works!" with too much new stuff at the same time.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #343 on: April 25, 2016, 11:01:37 am »
+1

5. I'm not a huge fan of different tiers. If it really ends up only being $3 a month, or maybe $4-5 a month when all cards are released, either you'll pay that amount or you'll be at the free tier. I can't imagine too many people paying $2 for only an expansion or two.

I can. Especially if it's not easy to avoid playing with all the cards you own. "We" want to play with all the cards, but I think many players would like to limit themselves so there are at most a couple of "new" cards in a game. Making fun has a setting to allow cards you don't own or not. I wonder how many has that turned off.

Not owning everything is one way to keep it simpler. Preferrably there should be better ways. I think that ideally the game should keep track of what cards each player is supposed to know (maybe has played with a couple of times) and make sure to not overwhelm a player who hasn't said "give me the works!" with too much new stuff at the same time.

MF allows you to bias expansions, but I don't think you can just choose not to use an expansion that you own.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #344 on: April 25, 2016, 11:14:54 am »
0

5. I'm not a huge fan of different tiers. If it really ends up only being $3 a month, or maybe $4-5 a month when all cards are released, either you'll pay that amount or you'll be at the free tier. I can't imagine too many people paying $2 for only an expansion or two.

I can. Especially if it's not easy to avoid playing with all the cards you own. "We" want to play with all the cards, but I think many players would like to limit themselves so there are at most a couple of "new" cards in a game. Making fun has a setting to allow cards you don't own or not. I wonder how many has that turned off.

Not owning everything is one way to keep it simpler. Preferrably there should be better ways. I think that ideally the game should keep track of what cards each player is supposed to know (maybe has played with a couple of times) and make sure to not overwhelm a player who hasn't said "give me the works!" with too much new stuff at the same time.

MF allows you to bias expansions, but I don't think you can just choose not to use an expansion that you own.

However, you can choose to not use expansions that you don't own.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #345 on: April 25, 2016, 11:17:12 am »
0

On the events discussion, I hope that a limit of 2 events is only an optional rule, as it is just a suggestion in the rulebook. The official game rules allow for a Kingdom with 21 events, so I hope that the online implementation does as well.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #346 on: April 25, 2016, 11:36:28 am »
0

As a slowish player, I beg you not to enforce timed games on everybody (unless the time limit is pretty generous).

Stef mentioned timed games in the context of user-created tournaments. If you want to make, say, a 16-player single-game knock-out tournament last at most 2 hours, you have to enforce some maximum game length on the individual rounds (say, 30 minutes). What these limits are and whether there are limits at all is entirely up to the creator of the tournament, and it's then up to individual players to only join tournaments with time limits that appeal to them.

It's out of the question that we'll apply such time limits to ordinary Dominion games.

What we will do is take an active stance against abusive stallers, starting with giving their opponent the option to make them resign (like iso had) but also by introducing a report function that will flag a time-stamped game + chat log for manual inspection. If we agree there was indeed abusive stalling these users will get warned, and repeat offenders could either be subjected to a personal clock or maybe even have their ability to play against humans temporarily revoked. We want to create a fun environment and people who take two minutes for each Copper play or sprout profanities in chat are not a part of that idea.

What do you think of Netflix-style "Are you still here?" messages? Possibly with captchas included? I know I said that before but I want to know if it's an idea you're considering.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #347 on: April 25, 2016, 11:37:37 am »
0

What do you think of Netflix-style "Are you still here?" messages? Possibly with captchas included? I know I said that before but I want to know if it's an idea you're considering.

What are the captchas for?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #348 on: April 25, 2016, 11:48:12 am »
0

What do you think of Netflix-style "Are you still here?" messages? Possibly with captchas included? I know I said that before but I want to know if it's an idea you're considering.

What are the captchas for?

Make people put in more work to stay in the game? It's pretty unlikely that they'd get bot accounts but... Still, it would prevent people from just clicking in the same place over and over. I dunno, just a thought.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #349 on: April 25, 2016, 12:04:12 pm »
+2

Personally, I am in favor of timers. A well-designed timer should be fine even for  players who need a lot of time to think; they earn time back if they actually play the game.

Pokemon Showdown uses a good compromise, I think. You can request to turn a battle timer on at any point, and before that there's no timer. I don't think you can turn the timer back off once you choose to turn it on, so that avoids the situation where a troll turns it on then turns it back off on their own turns. This way if you're playing someone in a tournament, you're probably a jerk if you turn the timer on (unless the rules required it), but for casual play it's completely understandable to turn it on at the very start of a game to ward off slow play.
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