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Author Topic: Creating Dominion  (Read 85087 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #100 on: April 13, 2016, 05:35:52 pm »
0

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?
I suspect "both," as it makes the game cheaper for the actual customers.

Sorry, why is that?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #101 on: April 13, 2016, 05:37:55 pm »
0

Since people are sharing; I don't have too big of an issue with this.  I only really like to play 'offline' anyway, so I'm happy enough to have it carryover.  I'm not sure I'd pay for online, even though it's cheap.  Just because, I feel like it's rare that I'd ever use it. 
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #102 on: April 13, 2016, 05:42:35 pm »
+1

I think I would make individual cards free for limited time as well, as teasers. So one week Conspirator might be the "card of the week" being available even for those who don't own it. In the matches where it appears there will be info about it: "This card is available for free only this week. It is available in Dominion Intrigue. [Buy here]" The double purpose is to get people to want to buy that card (of course) *and* to make it even more fun being a freeloader. It has to be fun even to be a freeloader.
It sounds reasonable to me to have things like card-of-the-week; I don't know if anything like that will happen.

Anyone who wasn't going to buy some entertainment thing anyway, who gets it for free, is probably a net benefit to the people who make the entertainment thing. That's what I think. If you weren't going to buy that album but listen to it on youtube, that may push you slightly towards buying someday, towards seeing a concert, towards recommending the band to a friend who buys the album. You know.

But any deals here had to be acceptable to everyone involved and at the start anyway I don't imagine there will be a lot of freeloading.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2016, 05:45:12 pm »
+2

And, one question, let's say I have every expansion up to Adventures on MF, but I want to play with Empires, will everyone pretty much have to pay $3/month from the get go?
To get everything including Empires you would just have to pay the difference between the cost-per-month for what you have and the cost-per-month for everything.
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Seprix

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2016, 05:47:10 pm »
0

And, one question, let's say I have every expansion up to Adventures on MF, but I want to play with Empires, will everyone pretty much have to pay $3/month from the get go?
To get everything including Empires you would just have to pay the difference between the cost-per-month for what you have and the cost-per-month for everything.

So I'm only paying cents on the dollar for Empires first year, because I owned everything else?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 05:48:32 pm by Seprix »
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JW

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #105 on: April 13, 2016, 05:49:28 pm »
+3

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?

I suspect "both," as it makes the game cheaper for the actual customers.

This would be the "you can only play with the intersection of cards owned by the two players" approach.

That would be worse than the "you can play with the union of cards owned by the two players" approach or the "you can play with either players' cards at at time, your choice of whose" approach. The intersection approach means that I can't play with the expansions with a friend who only plays a few games a year, and it means that those who have purchased the expansions won't want to play with those who don't have all the cards.

To me, union for any cards randomly added in kingdoms (the entire kingdom for full random) + the ability to chose specific Kingdom cards only from one person's cards is the way to go.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #106 on: April 13, 2016, 05:49:40 pm »
0

For sure we understand that there has to be a way to try the system for free. For offline play there will be levels you can try, like a campaign. I'm not sure what we do for online play but obv. we have to have some way to try it for free.

Nice, that's great news!
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #107 on: April 13, 2016, 05:50:49 pm »
+3

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?
I suspect "both," as it makes the game cheaper for the actual customers.

It also makes the matching time unreasonably long for the actual customers unless the new version suddenly has way more actual customers than the current version does.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #108 on: April 13, 2016, 05:55:51 pm »
+27

It's actually happening! Philip (SCSN) and I are building the new version of Dominion Online that will go online on the first of January 2017.

How can you be so sure about that, more than eight months in advance? What makes you sure that you'll have a working client by January that includes the intended features?
For example, they could both die in a car crash tomorrow.

So, at best he's just making a guess based on the available information.

* We will never be late on releasing new expansions.
What does that mean? Will there be no new expansions? Will your platform be used for playtesting of new expansions?
Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #109 on: April 13, 2016, 05:56:56 pm »
+3

I just don't see pass-and-play as being remotely feasible as a dominion option.  Reaction cards are going to be logistically almost unmanageable.
You could have a reduced card list used for it, that didn't include problematic reactions.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #110 on: April 13, 2016, 06:01:39 pm »
+2

Is it (financially) unreasonable to have previous purchases from Goko/MF carryover to both the offline version and a year of subscription, instead of requiring the choice?
Well at this point it would require an addendum to the contract. We did not consider it at the time.

The idea wasn't to make people choose; it was to best handle what actual customers wanted. Currently no-one has offline play; it is not a feature of the MF version. So by default the move was to give people however much time we could of online play in the new version. But we recognize that some people may simply not want to play against people online, and the offline option will be better for them; they actually get their expansions in the new program without paying for them.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #111 on: April 13, 2016, 06:06:33 pm »
+3

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?
I suspect "both," as it makes the game cheaper for the actual customers.

Sorry, why is that?
Suppose only one person on the planet would pay if only they couldn't share the expansions. We can charge less per person to the tune of the amount they pay divided by the number of people, and make the same amount of money.

So, let's try this again. To make whatever level of income, some prices are chosen. Those prices can be lower to get to the same level of income if we don't have the sharing. If we do have the sharing, the prices have to be higher to get the same level of income.

This is not true for the case where the people sharing would never possibly buy anything.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #112 on: April 13, 2016, 06:07:43 pm »
+5

So I'm only paying cents on the dollar for Empires first year, because I owned everything else?
Yes. We haven't announced specific pricing but obv. each expansion can't add up to much.
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werothegreat

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #113 on: April 13, 2016, 06:18:09 pm »
0

Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.

Does Stef's Inheritance actually work properly with Reserves?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #114 on: April 13, 2016, 06:48:27 pm »
+1

who wants to edit the dominion wikipedia page? wero? there is a part where it talks about the online implementation and the current situation would be a good excercise of prose.

it is perhaps worthwhile to remind ourselves why such a section has a smaller word count than the average page about an unsuccessful sports guy or mineral that doesn't do anything: online dominion is not really a commercial thing. i think it is a thing that somebody said that board games are expensive because they are a niche product, and the past online implementations of dominion have just been bad because there isn't an intrinsic motivation to make a good one. it seems like, from salvager data, that there would be ~4000 people (and this is of course a thing that i am not sure of) that would pay the $3/mo, which amounts to $144,000 yearly, and then minus some significant amount because of the other things that have to happen (see previous parenthetical), and then you get a sum of money that seems about appropriate for two guys working part time(ish) for a year without having this revenue and then maintaining the everything for another while.

the worst thing that happens is you don't get to have dominion online; being worried is just a thing that belongs on a different project.

but what do i know.
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Seprix

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #115 on: April 13, 2016, 06:50:36 pm »
0

who wants to edit the dominion wikipedia page? wero? there is a part where it talks about the online implementation and the current situation would be a good excercise of prose.

Why don't you do it?
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Burning Skull

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #116 on: April 13, 2016, 06:54:03 pm »
+9

who wants to edit the dominion wikipedia page? wero? there is a part where it talks about the online implementation and the current situation would be a good excercise of prose.

Why don't you do it?

Because Wero runs wiki on his own obviously

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #117 on: April 13, 2016, 07:01:01 pm »
+5

So, let's try this again. To make whatever level of income, some prices are chosen. Those prices can be lower to get to the same level of income if we don't have the sharing. If we do have the sharing, the prices have to be higher to get the same level of income.

It seems like this reasoning assumes that the number of "real buyers" is fixed, and then the issue is to get as many of the others (who would just use other people's cards if it's possible) to also buy. But the number of "real buyers" isn't fixed. They look at what it costs and what they get. Getting cards that you can use in matches against your friends and cards you can use in matches against lots of unknown people (so you can get quick and good matchups) is worth a lot more than cards you can only use against other customers.

My view is:

Paying customers should get good matchups (matching their criteria whatever they are) quickly, and then of course they should get to use all their cards in those matchups.
Sometimes it will be possible to match them with other paying customers. Then do. Sometimes it won't. Then even the players who never will pay a cent is a resource. They are like prop players you don't have to pay! When they aren't needed those can be matched against each other and play all Base Set games.

The main reason is to make what is good for paying customers. If there were a freeloader being one of the top players that player would probably often get to play with all cards anyway. That is not because we want to reward the player for being good, it is just because there probably are paying customers who would like to be matched against that player.


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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #118 on: April 13, 2016, 08:05:42 pm »
+1

It seems like this reasoning assumes that the number of "real buyers" is fixed, and then the issue is to get as many of the others (who would just use other people's cards if it's possible) to also buy. But the number of "real buyers" isn't fixed. They look at what it costs and what they get. Getting cards that you can use in matches against your friends and cards you can use in matches against lots of unknown people (so you can get quick and good matchups) is worth a lot more than cards you can only use against other customers.
Feel free to argue about this stuff with your pals on f.ds, or people whose job it is. It's not my job to argue about this stuff and man it's not something I want to do as a hobby.

My view is:

Paying customers should get good matchups (matching their criteria whatever they are) quickly, and then of course they should get to use all their cards in those matchups.
No argument there.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #119 on: April 13, 2016, 08:07:33 pm »
0

Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.

Does Stef's Inheritance actually work properly with Reserves?
I don't remember, and am not checking, but note that he had the advantage of starting the project knowing about the existence of all of the trickiest Dominion cards.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #120 on: April 13, 2016, 08:10:02 pm »
+3

Just wanted to chime in to say how exciting this is. Can't wait to see how it progresses. Congrats on landing the deal, Stef and SCSN.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #121 on: April 13, 2016, 08:33:59 pm »
+10

* We will never be late on releasing new expansions.
What does that mean? Will there be no new expansions? Will your platform be used for playtesting of new expansions?
Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.

I'm so glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that.

Anyway, that clinches it for me.  I didn't have many doubts anyway, but right now it seems the worst case scenario is we have something that works and already includes Adventures.  And they still have 7.5 months to go.

As long as they don't both die, I'm entirely unworried.  So, you know, don't go driving around in the same car guys.
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Seprix

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #122 on: April 13, 2016, 08:49:30 pm »
+1

I'm so glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that.

Anyway, that clinches it for me.  I didn't have many doubts anyway, but right now it seems the worst case scenario is we have something that works and already includes Adventures.  And they still have 7.5 months to go.

As long as they don't both die, I'm entirely unworried.  So, you know, don't go driving around in the same car guys.

And don't stare at the sun, either. You can't code if you can't see.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #123 on: April 14, 2016, 01:01:49 am »
+15

@ -Stef- and SCSN:
Congratulations! And thank you. I am so glad that two people who really care about Dominion have stepped up and taken responsibility for giving this great game the online implemtation it deserves. Here's to a brighter Dominion future.

Side note: I am saddened by the tone of a lot of the comments in this thread. I honestly thought we were a bit better than this. IMO we should be offering support and encouragement instead of quibbling over pricing structures before they are even properly up and running. This is two of our own with long track records of positive contributions to the community.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #124 on: April 14, 2016, 02:31:43 am »
+25

@ -Stef- and SCSN:
Congratulations! And thank you. I am so glad that two people who really care about Dominion have stepped up and taken responsibility for giving this great game the online implemtation it deserves. Here's to a brighter Dominion future.

Thanks to you and to everyone posting comments of a similar spirit.

Quote
Side note: I am saddened by the tone of a lot of the comments in this thread. I honestly thought we were a bit better than this. IMO we should be offering support and encouragement instead of quibbling over pricing structures before they are even properly up and running. This is two of our own with long track records of positive contributions to the community.

It's not a problem, I expected the discussion to be mostly about pricing. It's understandable that people are going to get mad when they discover they got the Goko implementation of eternity rather than the real thing. The upside is that these people don't have to pay anything for a year, and we're confident that by the time they would have to start paying again, the positive change they've seen far outweighs the fact that someone else promised them eternity and didn't deliver. And if not that means we've done a poor job and simply don't deserve their further payment.

Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.

Does Stef's Inheritance actually work properly with Reserves?

It does.
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