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Author Topic: Creating Dominion  (Read 99645 times)

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pst

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2016, 12:23:45 pm »
+7

Yet, I worry that subscriptions will scare the more casual players away, unless a decent free option is left for those who only play a few games once in a while. (limiting number of games, or creating a free ghetto with fewer cards available, or who knows)
Also, I'm afraid that asking for money up front will also make it hard to get new players.

I also worry about that, but I hope they already have thought along the same lines. The original post talked about cost per expansion saying nothing about Base , so presumably Base will still be free, which I think is a good idea for getting new players. I also really hope that the model where the union of cards owned by participanting players are used is followed. That is most like real cards and can also get new clients (who when their friend who taught them to play aren't there might get interesting in buying some cards of their own).

I think I would make individual cards free for limited time as well, as teasers. So one week Conspirator might be the "card of the week" being available even for those who don't own it. In the matches where it appears there will be info about it: "This card is available for free only this week. It is available in Dominion Intrigue. [Buy here]" The double purpose is to get people to want to buy that card (of course) *and* to make it even more fun being a freeloader. It has to be fun even to be a freeloader.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 12:39:08 pm by pst »
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jsh357

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2016, 12:24:25 pm »
0

Oh. Oh. I read this as offline mode being free.

There's no way I'll make the switch.
Sorry guys.

If you already own the cards now, then you can choose to get the offline version for free.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2016, 12:30:58 pm »
0

Back in September I had to decide whether to dive in and pay for the expansions, I was wary of exactly this kind of thing.  It was something like $90 to get them all, which is not exactly cheap.  But once I had them I had them, great.  A good investment.  And Making Fun, despite the way the majority of this community loves to crap on them every chance they get, it works.  They address bugs fairly quickly.  So at this point, there's a working product that I've already paid for, so I'm not going to be thrilled by any decision that changes this.  Still, I came to expect this back when the decision was announced. 

I'm not exactly thrilled about the new pricing model, but I get it.  It's hard to expect people to work for free.  If I'm understanding my choices correctly I can either

A) Get the first year of Dominion Online for free (a $36 value) and never play offline again.  No campaigns or AI games. 
B) Transfer my expansions to Dominion Offline (I don't know, a $55ish value), and start paying the online fee immediately.

I guess I'm stuck with Option B; I do enjoy the campaigns and do play offline sometimes. 

Here's my real fear with this whole process:

I paid $90.  I got 16 months of online and offline Dominion.  (Actually, by the time I've purchased Adventures, and I still plan to, it will more like $100ish dollars).  Once 2017 rolls around, I will keep my offline expansions and then will have to pay $36 through the year.  But what happens if after a year or two, it's decided that this implementation isn't right either, and it gets switched *again* to another developer.  And the new guys say "hey, here's our new pricing model, y'all got to pay for all the expansions *again*.  And the cycle continues.  From what I've seen Making Fun has done an excellent job of honouring player's past purchases; this may not be a financially viable position for the new developers to take, but there it is. 

I really hope that the decision-makers have made the right decision this time and we don't have to make another switch.  I understand that they feel their previous choice (MF) was the wrong one, and they may be right, but ultimately that decision is going to cost me a bit of money.  I am optimistic the new developers know what they're doing and can deliver a good product.  The previous product worked just fine, so the onus will be on them to deliver a better one.

It literally states that you can play against AI with the online model
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Awaclus

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2016, 12:34:32 pm »
0

I also really hope that the model where the union of cards owned by participanting players are used is followed. That is most like real cards and can also get new clients (who when their friend who taught them to play aren't there might get interesting in buying some cards of their own).

Most importantly, the people who pay the monthly subscription still probably want to get matched in a reasonably short time, instead of waiting for 3 hours until another player who happens to have the exact same expansions shows up.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2016, 12:36:54 pm »
+8

Stef/SCSCN

Wanted to share some thoughts. You have two player bases with Dominion. You have the hardcore gamers such as us, and, well, yourselves. And, then, you have the very casual gamer. I think there needs to be a free version both online and offline for the former category. If it is just Base Set for free, fine. But, there needs to be an option, otherwise, capturing new potential subscribers will be hard.

I think Offline should be on tablets. I believe a lot of casual people would love to play on the tablet offline and paying per expansion for this model makes sense.

And, one question, let's say I have every expansion up to Adventures on MF, but I want to play with Empires, will everyone pretty much have to pay $3/month from the get go? Will each expansion roughly equate a month of free service perhaps, so maybe 9 free months? I'm counting Cornucopia/Guilds/Alchemy as half expansions. I know you said 1-year free for the expansions you own.

With that said, I have a feeling you guys will create a kick-ass system. I'm more of visual person who likes the log at the side like the current version, so I hope we still have that.

Also, expect a lot of complaints, especially from casual gamers. $3/month will likely be a huge turnoff for people who only play once or twice a month. Hmm...You know, I have an idea, maybe allow users to play the first five games free per month, or allow players a 1-month free trial, and then they can play Base only. I don't know. Just throwing ideas out there.

More than anything, I want Dominion Online to be successful. To me, a success means both maintaining the current player base and also growing it. I hope this new model can achieve both.
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amoffett11

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2016, 12:37:28 pm »
+1

It literally states that you can play against AI with the online model

It's more the campaigns that I enjoy.  Keeping the offline expansions seems the wiser move to me, your free year is gone after a year, and now you have nothing.  And if there's another developer switch, will users who opted for the free year be left standing empty-handed, while I will still be able to transfer my kept expansions along?  This is all hypothetical I know, but it seems wiser in the long run to me to hang onto the expansions.  And hey, that way you're paying the new developers immediately, if that's your concern.  But once you let the expansions go, it's an expensive proposition to pay for them a second time. 
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2016, 12:50:42 pm »
+3

Also, SCSN/Stef, you are probably aware, but here is the reddit link which right now already has 51 replies https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/4elhxm/info_on_the_new_online_dominion_client_for_2017/

I do not see a discussion on BGG though.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2016, 12:53:06 pm »
+1

There's a reason most persistent services charge monthly fees (or have ads). There are recurring costs for using that service. However I'm less sure it works for something like online dominion where there's bound to be huge disparities in usage between more or less casual players. For many people who post here $3 a month is basically nothing for how much they'll get out. But for many who play infrequently it's an annoying barrier to turn on and off the service. So I'm a little skeptical of the business model here. I would gladly pay $3 if I was playing as much as I did on ISO. I probably still will because it's such a small amount. But I think people disagreeing have a reasonable argument.

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

To give prospective players a trial run, maybe it could allow free games using a limited pool for random kingdoms
  Base set only was the original Dominion Online plan, but it might be cool to include a few expansion cards, rotating  on a weekly basis so that those players can get a taste.  But I'm just throwing ideas out there.  No doubt Stef and SCSN will be thinking hard about how to attract new players.

Congrats on getting the contact!
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Ankenaut

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2016, 01:17:39 pm »
0

From somebody who loves Dominion and plays IRL all the time and only occasionally online, I like the idea of an inexpensive monthly subscription. I don't play enough online to justify the current cost of online expansions, but I wouldn't mind chipping in a few dollars a month to play casually online.

I do agree with others that it might be nice to be able to play a small number of games per month for free. I think that could help pull in potential new subscribers.
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Sten-Åke

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2016, 01:29:16 pm »
0

For now, consider me... wary.  When this was first announced, I guess I was expecting an actual company with infrastructure and a team of programmers, rather than... two guys.  I realize dougz did a lot for one guy, but let's be honest, isotropic was pretty small scale, and not really something you could reasonably mass-market.  So besides the fact that this is now the third digital Dominion implementation we'll have gotten, I'm leery of official Dominion being in the hands of two forumers with a high chance of being partisan.
...

I also have that concern. I sure hope you guys has contingency plans. Things can and do happen in life.
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noon

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2016, 01:30:59 pm »
+2

oh cool! Congrats!

* We intend to have different clients for different people. One will look as pretty as we can make it, one will be sober, with minimal images and mostly text. These clients will run on Windows, Mac and Linux, or any other platform that supports running Java. We will also make a client that runs in a web browser. Finally phones and tablets will probably be running a different client. If you play online you can play against any other client.

Are you guys experienced programmers? What projects have you worked to completion in the past that were cross-platform to this degree?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2016, 01:37:54 pm »
+6

I think the idea of a small number of free plays with all the cards per month would be a pretty good promotional idea.

I also like the idea of having a small number of sample cards that are cycled into the free pool could work well. (a la League of Legends for anyone who is familiar).

Another related idea that I thought of would be a "kingdom of the day" that anyone can play.

Sten-Åke

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2016, 01:57:13 pm »
0

Beyond Awesome, two player bases, seriously? That is rather broad. I would rather use half-dozen (ux) personas. Take myself for example. I'm casual who mainly play versus bots to relax after work. That's still a big difference vs a kid playing 4p games in a social setting.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2016, 02:02:05 pm »
+1

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?
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Seprix

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2016, 02:05:08 pm »
+13

$3/month ($36 a year, probably cheaper if you buy in bulk) online doesn't sound that bad to me. Why are so many people complaining?

On PS4, I have to pay freaking $50 bucks a year and buy all the $60 dollar games which have less content than ever before and then all the expansions that are like $25 bucks each which have nothing, but nobody complains about that, that's 'normal'. But $3 a month is somehow cruel and horrible for an actual good game.

Free isn't sustainable. How does nobody see this? I'm willing to pay $3 a month for Dominion.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 02:10:11 pm by Seprix »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2016, 02:05:37 pm »
+18

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?

Yeah, I think a pay-per-turn model is what is really needed here.

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2016, 02:06:45 pm »
+3

Lots of companies tend to have dedicated customer support. A small concern I do have is how will Stef and SCSN handle the influx of messages they will receive while at the same time maintaining the client and programming new expansions, assuming Empires is not the last Dominion expansion.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2016, 02:16:48 pm »
0

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?

This is certainly a problem with a pay-per-game option, but I hardly think it is unsolvable. Something as simple as "if your opponent resigns in less than X turns or Y seconds, the game doesn't count" would probably keep people who chose that option happy.

Whizkid

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2016, 02:18:44 pm »
+3

Online gaming is a service, not a product. A product (like Dominion Offline) you buy once and it requires no further work on anyone's part, you use it until you no longer wish to use it, it is consumed, or it breaks. A service (like Dominion Online) requires the entity providing the service (Stef & SCSN (or more likely, their company)) to continue to spend resources to make the service usable. Based on this, I would expect to pay as I use this service. Sure, it would be great if I never had to pay to play Dominion Online. That isn't reality.
While that is all true, it doesn't stop other companies from providing perpetual online play for a one-time fee. See Ticket to Ride or Kingdom Builder for example.

It seems that some publishers see the online versions of games as tools to help them "upsell" to the cardboard versions, and use those sales to finance the digital versions. I have no idea how well that works, financially, but they surely do. We'll see if those publishers continue to use that model or not. RGG seems reluctant to follow it, to be sure, which is a low-risk way to proceed.

I hope that the offline version allows some type of multi-player, and just means you're not using the developer's servers.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2016, 02:19:37 pm »
+1

Shit, when I first read that I thought it was going to be $3/mo/expansion, or like $30/month!  Now I've read it correctly, and not nearly that bad.

I'm really glad to see that it's actual community people making it!
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2016, 02:20:01 pm »
0

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?

This is certainly a problem with a pay-per-game option, but I hardly think it is unsolvable. Something as simple as "if your opponent resigns in less than X turns or Y seconds, the game doesn't count" would probably keep people who chose that option happy.

Yeah, that's true. I still prefer that format as "you get X free games per day/week/month", rather than "you may pay X$ for Y games".
But maybe other people would like to buy their games that way, idk.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2016, 02:22:52 pm »
+2

Beyond Awesome, two player bases, seriously? That is rather broad. I would rather use half-dozen (ux) personas. Take myself for example. I'm casual who mainly play versus bots to relax after work. That's still a big difference vs a kid playing 4p games in a social setting.

When I say casual gamer, I understand there are subsets of players. Some people only play bots, some play only with friends, others want tablet pass and play. But, when I think of casual vs. hardcore Dominion player, I feel most hardcore players will most likely use the new client more willingly whereas, the "casual" player might not be as easily convinced. I also feel casual players make up the majority of the player base which is why it is important to have something that makes everyone happy.
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werothegreat

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2016, 02:24:45 pm »
+2

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?

This is certainly a problem with a pay-per-game option, but I hardly think it is unsolvable. Something as simple as "if your opponent resigns in less than X turns or Y seconds, the game doesn't count" would probably keep people who chose that option happy.

I think the best option would be to continue the practice of having access to the Base Set for free, without a subscription.  As well, allow free players to play with subscribed players with the subscribed player's sets.  This would be an incredibly good way to get new players into the game, especially since most people who play a couple games of Dominion usually end up wanting to play it more.  I think the number of people choosing to subscribe will be enough (if not more) to offset the cost of supporting non-paying players, especially since non-paying players will only be able to play with expansions if they play with subscribers.

I think if you have some sort of ranked system, it should quite clearly only be available to subscribers, or at least have two ranks - one for free players, using base only (perhaps with a rotating selection of expansion cards, as has been suggested by others), and one for subscribers.  Non-payers would only be able to play with subscribers in unranked games.

Tournaments were mentioned - I think an excellent prize would be a month or two of free subscription.

EDIT: Hell, if you wanted, you can put advertisements up in non-payer clients.  Whatever ends up working.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2016, 02:25:18 pm »
+2

$3/month ($36 a year, probably cheaper if you buy in bulk) online doesn't sound that bad to me. Why are so many people complaining?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2016, 02:27:25 pm »
+1

Tournaments were mentioned - I think an excellent prize would be a month or two of free subscription.

I spent a while trying to figure out tournaments online, how to set up a system where you could try to generate revenue primarily through tournament entry fees. The problem is prizes, and awarding free subscriptions for winning might be too close to straight up money for money, which would be a mess legally.
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