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Author Topic: Creating Dominion  (Read 93104 times)

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qmech

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #125 on: April 14, 2016, 02:45:26 am »
+1

Interesting news.  I'm trusting you to give us what we need, not what we want.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #126 on: April 14, 2016, 02:46:26 am »
+6

Side note: I am saddened by the tone of a lot of the comments in this thread. I honestly thought we were a bit better than this. IMO we should be offering support and encouragement instead of quibbling over pricing structures before they are even properly up and running. This is two of our own with long track records of positive contributions to the community.

I thought the comments about pricing were mostly constructive.
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ConMan

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #127 on: April 14, 2016, 03:06:43 am »
+1

A new online Dominion client? Does that mean isotropic is shutting down?

In all seriousness, congratulations on landing the contract. I'm sure that it won't be a walk in the park, but I know that both of you have been quite vocal over several of the missing features of Dominion Online that must be pretty high up your priority list. Not to mention, you don't have the albatross of maintaining the legacy client around your necks like Making Fun did, which hopefully means you can build something clean from scratch.

I don't know how I feel about the subscription model - even though I don't play a lot online these days, I like knowing that I can just log in and have all the expansions available when I want - but at the same time I do think it's a smarter approach for a game like this. There are many other aspects that will need to be worked through, and hopefully there will be plenty of community engagement - not just with f.ds, but with the broader community of people who play Dominion online and IRL and who want to play online in the future.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #128 on: April 14, 2016, 03:43:48 am »
+2

I just want to say congratulations too you. It must be a crazy time for you to found an own company.
We all expect you to rock this so that might be your biggest challenge :). I'd been one of those lucky guys to have seen your early build and it looked good to me.
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Burning Skull

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #129 on: April 14, 2016, 03:59:20 am »
+18

I have a feature suggestion: achievements.
Both casual and serious players gonna l-l-love them.

You can add some basic ones, like
"Not so useless" (Reveal four victory cards with a single Scout)
or something more serious like
"Ninja turtle" (Buy out the Province supply pile in one turn)
or something more fun like
"Party pooper" (Discard five Wine Merchants from your Tavern mat simultaneously)
or even something completely idiotic like
"Winning the split" (Set both Princess and Duchess aside using Princes while Duke also being in the kingdom)

blueblimp

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #130 on: April 14, 2016, 04:05:17 am »
+2

Good to hear that Dominion clients will now be developed by people who know the game well and are active in the community.

That said, I am a little nervous about the ambition of the plans: clients on Windows, Mac, Linux, web, phones, tablets (that's a minimum of 6 different clients, 8 if you support both iOS and Android); two different products (online and offline); "never late" (something that just isn't true of software in my experience). The choice of Java as a client platform also concerns me a bit, just because every Java client I've seen has been pretty awful--it might be possible to write a good Java client, I just haven't seen one. It's a great step to have created a compelling prototype in 2 months, but I hope everyone involved understands the jump in difficulty when going from a prototype to a full-fledged cross-platform product.

The $3/month pricing is appealing to me as a player, but I do wonder if there are enough players to support continued development at that price. If the client is good enough to bring in a lot of new players, it could work, but not at the number of people who currently play Dominion online (about 4000 judging by the isotropish leaderboard; back in the days of isotropic, it was about 6000).

But anyway, I wish you success. From my perspective, there's only potential upside, since maybe there'll be a Dominion client that's fun to play on. If not, well, no change from the current situation.
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Elanchana

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #131 on: April 14, 2016, 04:40:42 am »
+8

Since everyone's sharing their thoughts, I guess I should as well.

Obviously it's fantastic that the people designing Dominion Online this time are long-time, high-skill players. So congrats on that.

The pricing system... I guess I'm okay with it. I'd kind of like for there to be a "bundle" or something, where you get the offline version cheaper if you also get the subscription online or vice versa. And there definitely should be some way to play for free - the Goko model of Base-only-unless-you-land-a-game-with-someone-who-has-all-sets seems like a good starting point. Maybe free players (guest accounts?) could also be blocked off from certain game modes like tournament mode.

In terms of features, I have a couple requests. You don't have to take them, but I think they're worth considering.
- There's going to be a leaderboard, right? If there is, can you maybe implement the option of being able to hide your place on the leaderboard (and your level/rating) from other players, as long as you don't see their level/rating either? It would be sort of like the system Making Fun has now where you know you're automatched with someone on a similar level but you don't know what it actually is. I feel like I might not be the only one who's turned off by any sort of ranking system because it adds instant judgement.
- On that note, please say that unrated games will still be possible - it's the best way to test out contrived boards and unfamiliar combos/cards among other things. It could even be cool if that was table style so we don't get what's going on on MF right now with "Hey, does anyone want to play a game with X cards?"
- It's good that you're doing both a text-based and a graphics-based mode. I've said it before, but what I think Goko and MF got very right was the feeling that you're actually playing a card game - the look of the real cards, the fanned-out hand in front of you, the play area in the middle, the cards moving to and from their various locations. I really don't want that to go away. By all means rearrange it so the information is more convenient (*cough opponent's deck size is always visible cough*), but please try to keep the realism.
- Social features, ya? I got so tired of asking MF for this that I just stopped, but now we're back. I kind of assume you're doing this, because you hinted at something like it with the observing feature (which I can't wait for), but it's worth mentioning anyway. So, friend list, blacklist, seeing who's online, private messaging, that sorta thing.
- Your interactive game log idea looks really great. Can it also include a way to see what your screen (or any player's screen for that matter) would have looked like on each move, without having to play the game from that point on? Or video replay for each turn? Or both? I'm asking this because of the trouble I have with reading logs and I hope I'm not the only one.
- This might be a given since SCSN is involved but it's worth asking anyway. There will be autoplay options, right? Like auto-reveal Moat and stuff?
- And speaking of things to make games go faster, can there be some way to notify people when they're slowrolling? If a player is taking a while on their turn, they should get a message like "You have been inactive for X minutes. Keep playing?" Their opponent also would know that they got the message so they don't have to ask themselves. Maybe if someone is a repeat offender they should start getting captchas or something at some point, and/or their time before they get booted gets gradually shorter.
- You don't have to do this one but it's something I just thought of. What if there was a section outside of games where people can get details on each card? Like if someone was unclear about what a particular card does, they could click on it and get an explanation like "1. Draw one card. 2. Take one action. 3. You may discard one card. 4. If you did, take one action. 5. You may discard one card. 6. If you did, take one buy." There could even be graphics or animations or something but that might take too much time. But each card page should also list the rules clarifications for the card, such as the lose-track rule or the you-can't-Prince-durations thing. So basically this would be like the DS Wiki pages for each card but without the strategy guides. I've seen enough people who make unintended mistakes with cards they don't know because they thought the rules were different that this could be a big help - using it in games with real people should not be possible of course but outside games definitely and against bots might also be nice. Just an idea.

So yeah. Excited for this to happen!
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Lotoreo

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #132 on: April 14, 2016, 04:45:32 am »
0

Great news, I am looking forward to 2017 then!
Though I am really curious how far you can get within one year, being only two people.

You have adventures already implemented? How much is your fee to let me become an early alpha tester? :P
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 05:01:49 am by Lotoreo »
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faust

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #133 on: April 14, 2016, 05:13:51 am »
+2

I have a feature suggestion: achievements.
Both casual and serious players gonna l-l-love them.

You can add some basic ones, like
"Not so useless" (Reveal four victory cards with a single Scout)
or something more serious like
"Ninja turtle" (Buy out the Province supply pile in one turn)
or something more fun like
"Party pooper" (Discard five Wine Merchants from your Tavern mat simultaneously)
or even something completely idiotic like
"Winning the split" (Set both Princess and Duchess aside using Princes while Duke also being in the kingdom)

Personally, I will be pretty pissed if people start playing games to get achievements rather than to win, so I'm not very fond of this idea.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #134 on: April 14, 2016, 05:40:52 am »
+9

I have a feature suggestion: achievements.
Both casual and serious players gonna l-l-love them.
I put together endless lists of achievements in early 2012 (the first list was actually from December 2011). Huh it's 2016 now somehow. Anyway they have been waiting for their moment; they haven't been forgotten.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #135 on: April 14, 2016, 05:41:56 am »
+12

Personally, I will be pretty pissed if people start playing games to get achievements rather than to win, so I'm not very fond of this idea.
Well, you don't get the achievement unless you also win the game. Hope that helps you.
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-Stef-

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #136 on: April 14, 2016, 06:36:10 am »
+10

Would people rather have a thread for talking about pricing and leave this thread for congratulating Stef/SCSN?
Feel free to use this thread for anything. At some point either us or someone else will want a more serious/constructive/dedicated discussion about some specific topic and then I'd advice to create a separate thread for that.

The only downside I can think of is that now even more people will say that the league is rigged.  ;) Good luck to both of you!
You are just being hilarious, but obv. if there's an official league then staff will not be allowed to participate.
When I asked theory to create this board, I also asked him to remove me as a league mod. I already wasn't assigned to any groups this season. So there you go... it already happened. At some point I will also disappear as a player, just not yet.

Does Stef's Inheritance actually work properly with Reserves?
Inheritance has a lot of tricky interactions, but Reserves isn't one of them.

...the feeling that you're actually playing a card game ...
I consider that very important as well. I have good hopes we will be able to go the extra mile there.


« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 06:37:15 am by -Stef- »
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xyz123

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #137 on: April 14, 2016, 06:42:30 am »
0

Congratulations Stef and SCSN. Excellent news that people so into the game have got the contract.

I don't have a problem with the subscription pricing model. For Software as a Service it is the only sensible way. I was surprised that Goko's model of unlimited use for a one off cost. I could not see that working long term as at some point the costs would exceed revenue. My worry though is people (particularly with Making Fun's decision to carry forward Goko purchases) who do not understand the business model will feel that they are being asked to pay again for something they have already paid for and this could cause some ill-feeling.

Really looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
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faust

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #138 on: April 14, 2016, 07:04:16 am »
0

Personally, I will be pretty pissed if people start playing games to get achievements rather than to win, so I'm not very fond of this idea.
Well, you don't get the achievement unless you also win the game. Hope that helps you.

It's better, but depending on the achievement it could still lead to situations where a player with a dominating lead drags out the game much longer than necessary in order to get their achievement.

EDIT: Though you can just resign in that case. So problem solved; go ahead and do your achievements. They should only be awarded for full random ranked games though.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 07:06:41 am by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #139 on: April 14, 2016, 07:09:17 am »
+6

...the feeling that you're actually playing a card game ...
I consider that very important as well. I have good hopes we will be able to go the extra mile there.

So we finally get manual shuffling by moving the cursor? :)
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #140 on: April 14, 2016, 07:35:07 am »
+1

It's better, but depending on the achievement it could still lead to situations where a player with a dominating lead drags out the game much longer than necessary in order to get their achievement.

EDIT: Though you can just resign in that case. So problem solved; go ahead and do your achievements. They should only be awarded for full random ranked games though.
Phew. Yes I don't think you should be able to pick the card mix to go for them.

They are not on any schedule currently but I still think it would be great to do them and well there are these lists ready for if we need them.
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Watno

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #141 on: April 14, 2016, 07:46:34 am »
+4

There are two gamplay features previous implementations didn't have that I'd love to see:
1) Being able to play a subset of one's basic treasures, without alerting the opponent this weren't all of your basic treasures. (On MF, you either "play all treasures", or play them one by one, I'd like to be able to select some treasures, then play them at the same time, so that it looks exactly the same as if I'd hit "play all treasures" to my opponent)
2) Deciding what card goes on top of your discard pile at the end of turn.
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Haddock

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #142 on: April 14, 2016, 07:50:37 am »
+1

There are two gamplay features previous implementations didn't have that I'd love to see:
1) Being able to play a subset of one's basic treasures, without alerting the opponent this weren't all of your basic treasures. (On MF, you either "play all treasures", or play them one by one, I'd like to be able to select some treasures, then play them at the same time, so that it looks exactly the same as if I'd hit "play all treasures" to my opponent)
2) Deciding what card goes on top of your discard pile at the end of turn.
Actually, while a generally undo button might be hard, when it comes to playing treasure, an option to retract Basic treasures would be nice.  I can't think of an instance where playing a basic treasure has an immediate effect  (in the Buy phase, at least, Storyteller being a thing), but accidentally playing that copper with a GM on the board is super-bleh.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #143 on: April 14, 2016, 08:05:29 am »
+1

There are two gamplay features previous implementations didn't have that I'd love to see:
1) Being able to play a subset of one's basic treasures, without alerting the opponent this weren't all of your basic treasures. (On MF, you either "play all treasures", or play them one by one, I'd like to be able to select some treasures, then play them at the same time, so that it looks exactly the same as if I'd hit "play all treasures" to my opponent)
2) Deciding what card goes on top of your discard pile at the end of turn.

I would love to be able to, say, right-click on a bunch of treasures to select them and then hit 'Play Selected Treasures' and then have them all fly down like they would if they were played with the 'Play All' button. It matters rarely, and even then probably way less than we think it matters, but it annoys me, and that's probably where the real effect comes in.
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Watno

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #144 on: April 14, 2016, 08:11:46 am »
+1

That's basically how I imagine it working as well.

Also, Stef and SCSN, are you working on this full-time? Do you plan to keep it as a full-time job after release?
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werothegreat

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #145 on: April 14, 2016, 08:45:28 am »
+1

- You don't have to do this one but it's something I just thought of. What if there was a section outside of games where people can get details on each card? Like if someone was unclear about what a particular card does, they could click on it and get an explanation like "1. Draw one card. 2. Take one action. 3. You may discard one card. 4. If you did, take one action. 5. You may discard one card. 6. If you did, take one buy." There could even be graphics or animations or something but that might take too much time. But each card page should also list the rules clarifications for the card, such as the lose-track rule or the you-can't-Prince-durations thing. So basically this would be like the DS Wiki pages for each card but without the strategy guides. I've seen enough people who make unintended mistakes with cards they don't know because they thought the rules were different that this could be a big help - using it in games with real people should not be possible of course but outside games definitely and against bots might also be nice. Just an idea.

I like this idea, and would be interested in helping out with it if you decided to do it.
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SCSN

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #146 on: April 14, 2016, 08:54:35 am »
+17

That's basically how I imagine it working as well.

Also, Stef and SCSN, are you working on this full-time? Do you plan to keep it as a full-time job after release?

We're working full-time for the company we started (called Shuffle iT). From now until at least early next year it will be on Dominion only.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #147 on: April 14, 2016, 08:59:30 am »
0

That's basically how I imagine it working as well.

Also, Stef and SCSN, are you working on this full-time? Do you plan to keep it as a full-time job after release?

We're working full-time for the company we started (called Shuffle iT). From now until at least early next year it will be on Dominion only.

Did you engage some hip consulting firm to come up with your company name?
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-Stef-

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #148 on: April 14, 2016, 09:07:08 am »
+10

Did you engage some hip consulting firm to come up with your company name?

We started out with Shuffle Luck. Everybody that wasn't into Dominion turned out to associate that name with casinos. And then my sister came up with Shuffle iT.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #149 on: April 14, 2016, 09:11:34 am »
+7

Did you engage some hip consulting firm to come up with your company name?

We started out with Shuffle Luck. Everybody that wasn't into Dominion turned out to associate that name with casinos. And then my sister came up with Shuffle iT.

Your sister should start a hip consulting firm.
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