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Author Topic: Creating Dominion  (Read 93244 times)

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-Stef-

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Creating Dominion
« on: April 13, 2016, 08:02:51 am »
+125

It's actually happening! Philip (SCSN) and I are building the new version of Dominion Online that will go online on the first of January 2017.

We're really excited we got the contract. It involved us building a demonstration Dominion during the first two months of this year, demonstrating it to Jay (RGG games) and Donald, and now building the actual game.

It's still early to say what exactly you can expect, except we will do our very best to make something all the Dominion fans will love.

* We intend to have different clients for different people. One will look as pretty as we can make it, one will be sober, with minimal images and mostly text. These clients will run on Windows, Mac and Linux, or any other platform that supports running Java. We will also make a client that runs in a web browser. Finally phones and tablets will probably be running a different client. If you play online you can play against any other client.

* We will be selling two different products: Dominion Online and Dominion Offline. In Dominion Offline you can buy expansions, and use them to play random boards, selfmade boards or campaigns against AI. For Dominion Online you will have to buy a monthly subscription. This does not require you to own the expansions offline. Online you can play against other players or against AI.
Exact prices are yet to be determined, but you can expect them to be around $3-$8 per expansion offline (depending on the expansion size) and $3/month online (for all expansions, $2/month for half the expansions). Existing users will be offered a choice: they either get their expansions transferred to 'Dominion Offline', or they get their expansions Online for the period of one year.

* We will never be late on releasing new expansions.

* We have some nice plans for new features. It's still very early to consider them promises, but this is certainly on my personal wish list:

  - A tournament hosting feature. We want to facilitate other users to act as a tournament host. Especially creating a one day cup and sending out invitations to your friends should be easy. A proper implementation of a one day cup requires some form of a timed game.
  - Gamelogs where every decision is a link. Clicking on the link allows you to continue playing from that point on.
    This should facilitate questions like "What should I have done here?"
  - A 'spectator mode' that allows you to observe any game running on the server, if the players permit it. For entertainment value, or just to wait until your friend is finished playing a game and can play against you.
  - Multi language support

At some point we'll be looking for test users, but not yet.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 08:07:25 am by -Stef- »
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teamrocketgrunt

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Re: announcing
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2016, 08:03:40 am »
+2

Best. News. Ever.
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Haddock

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Re: Announcing
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2016, 08:08:13 am »
0

This is incredibly exciting.

You only have to look at what SCSN (and others) pulled off with making more fun to know how awesome this is going to be.

Good times.
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SCSN

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2016, 08:08:32 am »
+8

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2016, 08:10:17 am »
0

This is fantastic news.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2016, 08:12:15 am »
0

It is great that future of online Dominion is now in strong and caring hands.

Good luck with your hard work and thank you.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2016, 08:21:58 am »
+1

Congratulations! I can finally explain to my parents that there are people out there who do 'Dominion things' for a living.

Oh yeah, and I can play Dominion Online somewhere besides Making Fun. That's a plus.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2016, 08:29:49 am »
0

I think this is gonna be good.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2016, 08:35:13 am »
+10

strong and caring hands.

Kind of makes it sound like this. Even though Penguins don't have hands. And I don't know how "strong" they are.



The one on the left is SCSN. The one on the right is Stef. The little baby penguin is Dominion Online/Offline. Obviously.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2016, 08:38:04 am »
+13

Am I the only one who is not exactly very excited to pay a monthly fee to be able to play Dominion online?

I guess people just want to see Making Fun bleed for their delays and costumer service (or lack thereof). But please, people, be careful what you wish for.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2016, 08:39:46 am »
0

Only 262 days left :)

I hope there will be a way to give you money within the first year if you already bought expansions.

Also, expansions is plural which also makes me happy :)
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2016, 08:41:51 am »
+1

Am I the only one who is not exactly very excited to pay a monthly fee to be able to play Dominion online?

I guess people just want to see Making Fun bleed for their delays and costumer service (or lack thereof). But please, people, be careful what you wish for.

Did you already buy expansions? If yes, you wont need to for quite some time. If not, it's definitely justified that you get expected to pay.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2016, 08:47:45 am »
+6

Am I the only one who is not exactly very excited to pay a monthly fee to be able to play Dominion online?

I guess people just want to see Making Fun bleed for their delays and costumer service (or lack thereof). But please, people, be careful what you wish for.

Did you already buy expansions? If yes, you wont need to for quite some time. If not, it's definitely justified that you get expected to pay.

I have most, but not all expansions. With the new system, I won't need to pay until early 2018, which is still the distant future, of course (unless I desperately want those Seaside and Cornucopia cards in my possession, which I don't because those two are my least favorite expansions anyway). But after that, it's $36 each year. Back on Goko, you could buy all expansions for all eternity for about the same price.

Every new system cranks up the price a notch. And this time, buying more expansions in advance won't help.

There's also the issue of dissuading possible new users to play Dominion online. No matter how small the price is, you'll lose a lot of potential players if you charge a monthly fee. That's not directly my problem, of course, but it might be a problem for the Dominion player base one day.

Edit: Oh, and if I want to play with Empires online, I will need to pay $3/month from the start, I presume...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 08:49:38 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2016, 08:51:50 am »
+6

Am I the only one who is not exactly very excited to pay a monthly fee to be able to play Dominion online?

I guess people just want to see Making Fun bleed for their delays and costumer service (or lack thereof). But please, people, be careful what you wish for.

For the price of what I paid to Making Fun for what will be about 15 months worth of playing with expansions, I'd get ~2.5 years of subscription if the price estimate is accurate. Personally, I have a rough heuristic of a dollar/hour for entertainment (thus if I'm thinking about buying a $60 game, I need to expect to play it for 60 hours) and I play far, far more than 2-3 hours of Dominion online in a month. I'm also very happy that we have people who understand that they need a way to generate revenue even if new Dominion products aren't coming out; if game development on Dominion ends (for real), we want the game to still exist online. In order to cover costs of maintenance programming and servers and whatnot, there needs to be some way to make money.

Official in-game tournaments would be fantastic; its all I ever wanted (well, most recent expansions as well).
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2016, 08:52:01 am »
+7

It's a little bit late for April Fools, guys.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2016, 08:54:39 am »
+1

Great to hear that this is in good hands.

Two questions:
  • Do you intend to support multiple local players in either edition?
  • Do you intend to support asynchronous play at all?
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2016, 09:00:45 am »
+1

Am I the only one who is not exactly very excited to pay a monthly fee to be able to play Dominion online?

I guess people just want to see Making Fun bleed for their delays and costumer service (or lack thereof). But please, people, be careful what you wish for.

For the price of what I paid to Making Fun for what will be about 15 months worth of playing with expansions, I'd get ~2.5 years of subscription if the price estimate is accurate.

Making Fun more than doubled the price from Goko, which I also found infuriating. But the fact that Making Fun will be more expensive per month than this new system is caused by two factors: the short life of the Making Fun system, and the fact that Stef will charge people in the first place. If the store system from Making Fun were maintained, then you couldn't make calculations like this, because expansions you already bought will still be free for all eternity.

Quote
I'm also very happy that we have people who understand that they need a way to generate revenue even if new Dominion products aren't coming out; if game development on Dominion ends (for real), we want the game to still exist online. In order to cover costs of maintenance programming and servers and whatnot, there needs to be some way to make money.

If the revenue decreases once there are no more Dominion expansions, and there are still people who want to keep playing Dominion online, they could start asking for donations instead of demanding them from the beginning.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2016, 09:08:30 am »
+7

Am I the only one who is not exactly very excited to pay a monthly fee to be able to play Dominion online?

I guess people just want to see Making Fun bleed for their delays and costumer service (or lack thereof). But please, people, be careful what you wish for.

For the price of what I paid to Making Fun for what will be about 15 months worth of playing with expansions, I'd get ~2.5 years of subscription if the price estimate is accurate.

Making Fun more than doubled the price from Goko, which I also found infuriating. But the fact that Making Fun will be more expensive per month than this new system is caused by two factors: the short life of the Making Fun system, and the fact that Stef will charge people in the first place. If the store system from Making Fun were maintained, then you couldn't make calculations like this, because expansions you already bought will still be free for all eternity.

Quote
I'm also very happy that we have people who understand that they need a way to generate revenue even if new Dominion products aren't coming out; if game development on Dominion ends (for real), we want the game to still exist online. In order to cover costs of maintenance programming and servers and whatnot, there needs to be some way to make money.

If the revenue decreases once there are no more Dominion expansions, and there are still people who want to keep playing Dominion online, they could start asking for donations instead of demanding them from the beginning.

Online gaming is a service, not a product. A product (like Dominion Offline) you buy once and it requires no further work on anyone's part, you use it until you no longer wish to use it, it is consumed, or it breaks. A service (like Dominion Online) requires the entity providing the service (Stef & SCSN (or more likely, their company)) to continue to spend resources to make the service usable. Based on this, I would expect to pay as I use this service. Sure, it would be great if I never had to pay to play Dominion Online. That isn't reality.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2016, 09:11:06 am »
+11

A dominion editor where you'd be able to make/playtest your own fan cards would be cool too. Could be part of the service part within the monthly fee.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2016, 09:11:36 am »
+3

A dominion editor where you'd be able to make/playtest your own fan cards would be cool too. Could be part of the service part within the monthly fee.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2016, 09:13:08 am »
0

The only downside I can think of is that now even more people will say that the league is rigged.  ;) Good luck to both of you!

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2016, 09:16:31 am »
+1

The only downside I can think of is that now even more people will say that the league is rigged.  ;) Good luck to both of you!

Maybe the League would be one of the in-game tournament types, which could vastly simplify the organization.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2016, 09:17:42 am »
0

Exciting news!  I'm not sure how I feel about paying monthly fees, but if it's $3/month, I'm sure I can find the money (I'll just beg if I need to. ;))

The most reassuring thing, though, is that we can be certain that our concerns will be addressed by people who sincerely care about creating a format for competitive players to enjoy the game online, and that's really great news.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2016, 09:18:55 am »
+3

This monthly subscription thing is great though. It's unfortunate that people paid for the expansions on Goko/MF thinking that they would be able to use those expansions to the end of their days, but really the only problem here is that Goko was selling expansions like that in the first place. 3€ a month for all the expansions or 2€ for half of them is an extremely reasonable price to pay, and maybe some months you can do without the expansions if you're not planning to play that much.

The fact that it's not Goko or Making Fun who I'm paying also makes me a lot more interested in paying a few bucks every month.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 09:21:07 am by Awaclus »
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2016, 09:19:47 am »
+1

Am I the only one who is not exactly very excited to pay a monthly fee to be able to play Dominion online?

I guess people just want to see Making Fun bleed for their delays and costumer service (or lack thereof). But please, people, be careful what you wish for.

For the price of what I paid to Making Fun for what will be about 15 months worth of playing with expansions, I'd get ~2.5 years of subscription if the price estimate is accurate.

Making Fun more than doubled the price from Goko, which I also found infuriating. But the fact that Making Fun will be more expensive per month than this new system is caused by two factors: the short life of the Making Fun system, and the fact that Stef will charge people in the first place. If the store system from Making Fun were maintained, then you couldn't make calculations like this, because expansions you already bought will still be free for all eternity.

Quote
I'm also very happy that we have people who understand that they need a way to generate revenue even if new Dominion products aren't coming out; if game development on Dominion ends (for real), we want the game to still exist online. In order to cover costs of maintenance programming and servers and whatnot, there needs to be some way to make money.

If the revenue decreases once there are no more Dominion expansions, and there are still people who want to keep playing Dominion online, they could start asking for donations instead of demanding them from the beginning.

Online gaming is a service, not a product. A product (like Dominion Offline) you buy once and it requires no further work on anyone's part, you use it until you no longer wish to use it, it is consumed, or it breaks. A service (like Dominion Online) requires the entity providing the service (Stef & SCSN (or more likely, their company)) to continue to spend resources to make the service usable. Based on this, I would expect to pay as I use this service. Sure, it would be great if I never had to pay to play Dominion Online. That isn't reality.

Well, I guess it's just me, so I'll stop complaining and suck the extra costs up. It's still cheap enough that I'll use the system, besides, I just love Dominion too much.

I will admit that, like the rest, I'm pretty curious how the system will look and which extra functions will be implemented.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2016, 09:23:05 am »
+2

In more seriousness though, this news is very heartening. It's so cool to know that two of the best Dominion players in the world will have Dominion as their career.

One thing I hope is that they realize that most people don't like change and that the two interfaces are relatively stylistically similar to Goko/MF and Isotropic respectively.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2016, 09:24:41 am »
+19

For now, consider me... wary.  When this was first announced, I guess I was expecting an actual company with infrastructure and a team of programmers, rather than... two guys.  I realize dougz did a lot for one guy, but let's be honest, isotropic was pretty small scale, and not really something you could reasonably mass-market.  So besides the fact that this is now the third digital Dominion implementation we'll have gotten, I'm leery of official Dominion being in the hands of two forumers with a high chance of being partisan.

That aside, I also have some questions:
-Will the Online implementation also include all the features you're advertising on the Offline (campaigns, etc)?
-Will you have any support for trial users?  In both previous implementations, I could get online friends to try Dominion without them having to pay anything.  Once they saw how good a game it was, they were often encouraged to buy expansions on their own.  However, I think a monthly subscription fee, even $2-3, would be sufficient deterrent for a lot of them to not bother.  If you look at other successful digital card games (Hearthstone, Duelyst), they all have some form of free to play option.
-Will you have some sort of pass-and-play feature for Offline (or Online, even)?

In the interest of fairness, and to not sound like a paranoid judgmental asshole, I am intrigued by:
-Multi-language support - this is excellent, and I look forward to it.  One of the things that I'm surprised has not be done heretofore.  I guess this is more of a priority when the developers aren't native English speakers.
-Spectator mode - also something I'm surprised hasn't been done yet.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2016, 09:42:05 am »
+4

I have a lot of confidence that the best Dominion Online implementation possible can be done being written by the best and most passionate Dominion players. It just makes sense. Eliminates the middleman.

$3 a month is an extremely reasonable price to pay for Dominion Online, especially since I won't have to pay that for a year.

If Dominion Offline doesn't have local multiplayer, it doesn't make much sense to me why I would buy that if I'm already paying for Dominion Online. And I'm someone that does like playing solitaire games or games versus AI sometimes. Local multiplayer could be a great way to rope friends into Dominion Online as well.

Also, thanks for doing this. Finally someone will probably get this right.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2016, 09:44:49 am »
+8

So... this is the otter Online Dominion?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2016, 10:08:16 am »
+1

Dominion players making dominion software? Very glad to hear this!
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2016, 10:13:06 am »
+2

as much as i apreciate the work you will be doing for this a monthly fee will make me quit dominion online.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2016, 10:16:37 am »
+23

Favorite Online Dominion Bracket:

1. Isotropic
4. Goko

2. Stef & SCSN's Dominion
3. Making Fun
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2016, 10:19:48 am »
+1

Haven't logged in for a long time, but time to say it's finally the time for me to consider buying dominion online.

I assume they have a good enough demo to get the contract. So I don't worry about their implementation ability. On the other hand I am glad to see that finally the engine/interface is designed by someone who plays thousands of games.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2016, 10:45:10 am »
+5

Back in September I had to decide whether to dive in and pay for the expansions, I was wary of exactly this kind of thing.  It was something like $90 to get them all, which is not exactly cheap.  But once I had them I had them, great.  A good investment.  And Making Fun, despite the way the majority of this community loves to crap on them every chance they get, it works.  They address bugs fairly quickly.  So at this point, there's a working product that I've already paid for, so I'm not going to be thrilled by any decision that changes this.  Still, I came to expect this back when the decision was announced. 

I'm not exactly thrilled about the new pricing model, but I get it.  It's hard to expect people to work for free.  If I'm understanding my choices correctly I can either

A) Get the first year of Dominion Online for free (a $36 value) and never play offline again.  No campaigns or AI games. 
B) Transfer my expansions to Dominion Offline (I don't know, a $55ish value), and start paying the online fee immediately.

I guess I'm stuck with Option B; I do enjoy the campaigns and do play offline sometimes. 

Here's my real fear with this whole process:

I paid $90.  I got 16 months of online and offline Dominion.  (Actually, by the time I've purchased Adventures, and I still plan to, it will more like $100ish dollars).  Once 2017 rolls around, I will keep my offline expansions and then will have to pay $36 through the year.  But what happens if after a year or two, it's decided that this implementation isn't right either, and it gets switched *again* to another developer.  And the new guys say "hey, here's our new pricing model, y'all got to pay for all the expansions *again*.  And the cycle continues.  From what I've seen Making Fun has done an excellent job of honouring player's past purchases; this may not be a financially viable position for the new developers to take, but there it is. 

I really hope that the decision-makers have made the right decision this time and we don't have to make another switch.  I understand that they feel their previous choice (MF) was the wrong one, and they may be right, but ultimately that decision is going to cost me a bit of money.  I am optimistic the new developers know what they're doing and can deliver a good product.  The previous product worked just fine, so the onus will be on them to deliver a better one. 
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Polk5440

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2016, 10:49:47 am »
+4

It's actually happening! Philip (SCSN) and I are building the new version of Dominion Online that will go online on the first of January 2017. We're really excited we got the contract.

Congratulations! And be sure to let me know when you are looking for testers later in the year. I would be happy to help!

Well, I guess it's just me, so I'll stop complaining and suck the extra costs up.

Well, no, it's not just you, as you can see in the thread. I share some of the concerns, too, but I think it's better to give Stef and SCSN space to work and develop the product. They are clearly hoping to deliver an online product that is WORTH paying up to $3/mo for. Let's give them a chance to deliver.

For now, consider me... wary.  When this was first announced, I guess I was expecting an actual company with infrastructure and a team of programmers, rather than... two guys.

To be fair, Rio Grande Games is one guy, Donald X. is one guy, and Goko-Making Fun, etc. were a lot of guys, then one guy, then some guys + random code monkeys if I understand the history of the companies correctly.

Think about it as a risky start up venture. Like Goko was, except this time the start up has a more limited mission scope, proven programmers, and a love of the game they are adapting. 
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2016, 10:51:34 am »
+2

Congratulations on getting the contract!  I'm very excited about this.  Contrary to many people, I feel like the pricing structure is well thought out.  I think this will actually entice me to finally buy the expansions online.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2016, 11:08:55 am »
+7

I came here to say that I'm still a person who plays Dominion online quite a bit and am super unhappy with this news. The monthly fee along with no way for people who don't play very often feels alienating. With Making fun people who play once a year can hop on and enjoy a game of Dominion with me right now and they can do that for free with all the expansions. I feel extremely mislead in being told that my purchases would transfer over when in fact they basically won't. I understand the need to generate income but this feels like I'm being ripped off. I bought the expansions with the intention of being able to play with my more casual (maybe a few games a year) kind of people and I won't be able to do that anymore. And I have to choose between the "offline" version whatever that means and the online version.

If the payment model stays the same, I won't be making the move.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2016, 11:25:27 am »
+2

Yeah I'm pretty pissed at this. I have all the Dominon cards IRL, so I don't need an offline mode. I paid $90 to get a game I could play for a long time. I play often with my wife, as currently she can play without having paid the $90 so long as I had the expansions.

Now I will only get a year more before I have to pay $72 per month for me and my wife? And in the first year I'll have to shell out $36 for her? Fuck that. This is just nickel and diming your customers.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2016, 11:30:22 am »
+1

Yeah I'm pretty pissed at this. I have all the Dominon cards IRL, so I don't need an offline mode. I paid $90 to get a game I could play for a long time. I play often with my wife, as currently she can play without having paid the $90 so long as I had the expansions.

Now I will only get a year more before I have to pay $72 per month for me and my wife? And in the first year I'll have to shell out $36 for her? Fuck that. This is just nickel and diming your customers.

I'm not reading the same thing you're reading:

Quote
$3/month online (for all expansions, $2/month for half the expansions)
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2016, 11:31:47 am »
+1

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?
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A Ladder

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2016, 11:38:29 am »
+9

Fantastic news! Apparently I'm one of the few people who thinks that $3 a month is dirt cheap. Holy cow is that cheap. I for one can go with one less 30 oz soda or bag of cookies a month to play one of my favorite games.  (Think of it this way...put a quarter away every week till this comes out...then you'll have four months of free dominion).

Question 1: Will there be a "base game only" free online version like the current MF model? I probably wouldn't have even tried Dominion Online if that wasn't free.
Question 2: Will those with half expansions still get to experience all the expansions if paired up with someone who bought the whole package? If so, that is great!

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2016, 11:40:24 am »
0

I only just bought all the expansions with Making Fun.  Which was a fairly big expenditure, and it hurts that they are going to be essentially lost at the end of this year (Offline Dominion not really being a thing.).

That said, I think a lot of what is putting people off about the pay monthly system (which I will probably be happy to pay) is the idea of paying $3/month for what Making Fun currently offer (which is our only current point of comparison).  I would not want to pay monthly for what MF do, but we have to trust here that SCSN and Stef are going to produce a product that is actually WORTH that fee, unlike what MF have done.  People should keep in mind when complaining about the idea of a monthly fee.


That said, I do think a trial period is absolutely a good idea, as well as some way of playing local/LAN multiplayer in the "Offline" system.



I would even go so far as to suggest a $1/month fee for people who want to play online with no expansions, just putting up with whatever games other people have (as the current MF does if you have no expansions).   But I'm aware that I have no right to suggest anything with regards to your pricing structure, so take this suggestion with a pinch of salt.


Related question: Which "half" of the expansions?
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teamrocketgrunt

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2016, 11:43:55 am »
0

Yeah I'm pretty pissed at this. I have all the Dominon cards IRL, so I don't need an offline mode. I paid $90 to get a game I could play for a long time. I play often with my wife, as currently she can play without having paid the $90 so long as I had the expansions.

Couldn't you play with your wife IRL then? It's a genuine question. When I got Dominion Online I became a bit lazy and didn't want to set up the cards, so I asked my girlfriend if she wanted to play online and she gave me a "WTF"-look and pointed to the expansions on the shelf. I assumed most couples that don't spend horrendous amounts of time apart play IRL.
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yuma

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2016, 11:44:42 am »
+1

I came here to say that I'm still a person who plays Dominion online quite a bit and am super unhappy with this news. The monthly fee along with no way for people who don't play very often feels alienating. With Making fun people who play once a year can hop on and enjoy a game of Dominion with me right now and they can do that for free with all the expansions. I feel extremely mislead in being told that my purchases would transfer over when in fact they basically won't. I understand the need to generate income but this feels like I'm being ripped off. I bought the expansions with the intention of being able to play with my more casual (maybe a few games a year) kind of people and I won't be able to do that anymore. And I have to choose between the "offline" version whatever that means and the online version.

If the payment model stays the same, I won't be making the move.

Wow! Insomniac spotting!
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ravi

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2016, 11:52:23 am »
+3

This is great. I would highly recommend a free online mode for base-set only people. I think you won't be able to hook many new people in with paying $3/month.

My brother likes Dominion IRL and hates playing online, but since we live so far away we sometimes play online and when we both go visit my dad or something we will play online against each other so we don't have to lug a million cards on a flight. He would definitely not want to pay anything for an online implementation so I would hope there would still be a way for me to play against him if I have an online subscription.

I'm definitely all in as a customer though. Love how responsive SCSN was simply with the patch doing it as a hobby. This is great news.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2016, 12:01:40 pm »
+4

Would people rather have a thread for talking about pricing and leave this thread for congratulating Stef/SCSN?

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2016, 12:04:50 pm »
+7

Would people rather have a thread for talking about pricing and leave this thread for congratulating Stef/SCSN?

* LastFootnote looks at thread title

I don't see why. Seems like a fine place for all feedback, both positive and negative.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2016, 12:05:34 pm »
+1

Very good news! (sad to see the n-th working implementation of online Dominion being thrown in the trash, but it's great news for the long run)
Since I concentrate my Dominion plays in only a few months of the year, a subscription system works great for me, and the price seems fair. Yet, I worry that subscriptions will scare the more casual players away, unless a decent free option is left for those who only play a few games once in a while. (limiting number of games, or creating a free ghetto with fewer cards available, or who knows)
Also, I'm afraid that asking for money up front will also make it hard to get new players.
I have full faith in that you guys will deliver a very good product, I hope that you'll be able to commercialize it in a way that will make it bloom.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2016, 12:12:16 pm »
+4

There's a reason most persistent services charge monthly fees (or have ads). There are recurring costs for using that service. However I'm less sure it works for something like online dominion where there's bound to be huge disparities in usage between more or less casual players. For many people who post here $3 a month is basically nothing for how much they'll get out. But for many who play infrequently it's an annoying barrier to turn on and off the service. So I'm a little skeptical of the business model here. I would gladly pay $3 if I was playing as much as I did on ISO. I probably still will because it's such a small amount. But I think people disagreeing have a reasonable argument.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2016, 12:18:14 pm »
+1

Oh. Oh. I read this as offline mode being free.

There's no way I'll make the switch.
Sorry guys.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2016, 12:23:45 pm »
+7

Yet, I worry that subscriptions will scare the more casual players away, unless a decent free option is left for those who only play a few games once in a while. (limiting number of games, or creating a free ghetto with fewer cards available, or who knows)
Also, I'm afraid that asking for money up front will also make it hard to get new players.

I also worry about that, but I hope they already have thought along the same lines. The original post talked about cost per expansion saying nothing about Base , so presumably Base will still be free, which I think is a good idea for getting new players. I also really hope that the model where the union of cards owned by participanting players are used is followed. That is most like real cards and can also get new clients (who when their friend who taught them to play aren't there might get interesting in buying some cards of their own).

I think I would make individual cards free for limited time as well, as teasers. So one week Conspirator might be the "card of the week" being available even for those who don't own it. In the matches where it appears there will be info about it: "This card is available for free only this week. It is available in Dominion Intrigue. [Buy here]" The double purpose is to get people to want to buy that card (of course) *and* to make it even more fun being a freeloader. It has to be fun even to be a freeloader.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 12:39:08 pm by pst »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2016, 12:24:25 pm »
0

Oh. Oh. I read this as offline mode being free.

There's no way I'll make the switch.
Sorry guys.

If you already own the cards now, then you can choose to get the offline version for free.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2016, 12:30:58 pm »
0

Back in September I had to decide whether to dive in and pay for the expansions, I was wary of exactly this kind of thing.  It was something like $90 to get them all, which is not exactly cheap.  But once I had them I had them, great.  A good investment.  And Making Fun, despite the way the majority of this community loves to crap on them every chance they get, it works.  They address bugs fairly quickly.  So at this point, there's a working product that I've already paid for, so I'm not going to be thrilled by any decision that changes this.  Still, I came to expect this back when the decision was announced. 

I'm not exactly thrilled about the new pricing model, but I get it.  It's hard to expect people to work for free.  If I'm understanding my choices correctly I can either

A) Get the first year of Dominion Online for free (a $36 value) and never play offline again.  No campaigns or AI games. 
B) Transfer my expansions to Dominion Offline (I don't know, a $55ish value), and start paying the online fee immediately.

I guess I'm stuck with Option B; I do enjoy the campaigns and do play offline sometimes. 

Here's my real fear with this whole process:

I paid $90.  I got 16 months of online and offline Dominion.  (Actually, by the time I've purchased Adventures, and I still plan to, it will more like $100ish dollars).  Once 2017 rolls around, I will keep my offline expansions and then will have to pay $36 through the year.  But what happens if after a year or two, it's decided that this implementation isn't right either, and it gets switched *again* to another developer.  And the new guys say "hey, here's our new pricing model, y'all got to pay for all the expansions *again*.  And the cycle continues.  From what I've seen Making Fun has done an excellent job of honouring player's past purchases; this may not be a financially viable position for the new developers to take, but there it is. 

I really hope that the decision-makers have made the right decision this time and we don't have to make another switch.  I understand that they feel their previous choice (MF) was the wrong one, and they may be right, but ultimately that decision is going to cost me a bit of money.  I am optimistic the new developers know what they're doing and can deliver a good product.  The previous product worked just fine, so the onus will be on them to deliver a better one.

It literally states that you can play against AI with the online model
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2016, 12:34:32 pm »
0

I also really hope that the model where the union of cards owned by participanting players are used is followed. That is most like real cards and can also get new clients (who when their friend who taught them to play aren't there might get interesting in buying some cards of their own).

Most importantly, the people who pay the monthly subscription still probably want to get matched in a reasonably short time, instead of waiting for 3 hours until another player who happens to have the exact same expansions shows up.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2016, 12:36:54 pm »
+8

Stef/SCSCN

Wanted to share some thoughts. You have two player bases with Dominion. You have the hardcore gamers such as us, and, well, yourselves. And, then, you have the very casual gamer. I think there needs to be a free version both online and offline for the former category. If it is just Base Set for free, fine. But, there needs to be an option, otherwise, capturing new potential subscribers will be hard.

I think Offline should be on tablets. I believe a lot of casual people would love to play on the tablet offline and paying per expansion for this model makes sense.

And, one question, let's say I have every expansion up to Adventures on MF, but I want to play with Empires, will everyone pretty much have to pay $3/month from the get go? Will each expansion roughly equate a month of free service perhaps, so maybe 9 free months? I'm counting Cornucopia/Guilds/Alchemy as half expansions. I know you said 1-year free for the expansions you own.

With that said, I have a feeling you guys will create a kick-ass system. I'm more of visual person who likes the log at the side like the current version, so I hope we still have that.

Also, expect a lot of complaints, especially from casual gamers. $3/month will likely be a huge turnoff for people who only play once or twice a month. Hmm...You know, I have an idea, maybe allow users to play the first five games free per month, or allow players a 1-month free trial, and then they can play Base only. I don't know. Just throwing ideas out there.

More than anything, I want Dominion Online to be successful. To me, a success means both maintaining the current player base and also growing it. I hope this new model can achieve both.
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amoffett11

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2016, 12:37:28 pm »
+1

It literally states that you can play against AI with the online model

It's more the campaigns that I enjoy.  Keeping the offline expansions seems the wiser move to me, your free year is gone after a year, and now you have nothing.  And if there's another developer switch, will users who opted for the free year be left standing empty-handed, while I will still be able to transfer my kept expansions along?  This is all hypothetical I know, but it seems wiser in the long run to me to hang onto the expansions.  And hey, that way you're paying the new developers immediately, if that's your concern.  But once you let the expansions go, it's an expensive proposition to pay for them a second time. 
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2016, 12:50:42 pm »
+3

Also, SCSN/Stef, you are probably aware, but here is the reddit link which right now already has 51 replies https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/4elhxm/info_on_the_new_online_dominion_client_for_2017/

I do not see a discussion on BGG though.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2016, 12:53:06 pm »
+1

There's a reason most persistent services charge monthly fees (or have ads). There are recurring costs for using that service. However I'm less sure it works for something like online dominion where there's bound to be huge disparities in usage between more or less casual players. For many people who post here $3 a month is basically nothing for how much they'll get out. But for many who play infrequently it's an annoying barrier to turn on and off the service. So I'm a little skeptical of the business model here. I would gladly pay $3 if I was playing as much as I did on ISO. I probably still will because it's such a small amount. But I think people disagreeing have a reasonable argument.

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

To give prospective players a trial run, maybe it could allow free games using a limited pool for random kingdoms
  Base set only was the original Dominion Online plan, but it might be cool to include a few expansion cards, rotating  on a weekly basis so that those players can get a taste.  But I'm just throwing ideas out there.  No doubt Stef and SCSN will be thinking hard about how to attract new players.

Congrats on getting the contact!
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2016, 01:17:39 pm »
0

From somebody who loves Dominion and plays IRL all the time and only occasionally online, I like the idea of an inexpensive monthly subscription. I don't play enough online to justify the current cost of online expansions, but I wouldn't mind chipping in a few dollars a month to play casually online.

I do agree with others that it might be nice to be able to play a small number of games per month for free. I think that could help pull in potential new subscribers.
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Sten-Åke

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2016, 01:29:16 pm »
0

For now, consider me... wary.  When this was first announced, I guess I was expecting an actual company with infrastructure and a team of programmers, rather than... two guys.  I realize dougz did a lot for one guy, but let's be honest, isotropic was pretty small scale, and not really something you could reasonably mass-market.  So besides the fact that this is now the third digital Dominion implementation we'll have gotten, I'm leery of official Dominion being in the hands of two forumers with a high chance of being partisan.
...

I also have that concern. I sure hope you guys has contingency plans. Things can and do happen in life.
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noon

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2016, 01:30:59 pm »
+2

oh cool! Congrats!

* We intend to have different clients for different people. One will look as pretty as we can make it, one will be sober, with minimal images and mostly text. These clients will run on Windows, Mac and Linux, or any other platform that supports running Java. We will also make a client that runs in a web browser. Finally phones and tablets will probably be running a different client. If you play online you can play against any other client.

Are you guys experienced programmers? What projects have you worked to completion in the past that were cross-platform to this degree?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2016, 01:37:54 pm »
+6

I think the idea of a small number of free plays with all the cards per month would be a pretty good promotional idea.

I also like the idea of having a small number of sample cards that are cycled into the free pool could work well. (a la League of Legends for anyone who is familiar).

Another related idea that I thought of would be a "kingdom of the day" that anyone can play.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2016, 01:57:13 pm »
0

Beyond Awesome, two player bases, seriously? That is rather broad. I would rather use half-dozen (ux) personas. Take myself for example. I'm casual who mainly play versus bots to relax after work. That's still a big difference vs a kid playing 4p games in a social setting.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2016, 02:02:05 pm »
+1

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2016, 02:05:08 pm »
+13

$3/month ($36 a year, probably cheaper if you buy in bulk) online doesn't sound that bad to me. Why are so many people complaining?

On PS4, I have to pay freaking $50 bucks a year and buy all the $60 dollar games which have less content than ever before and then all the expansions that are like $25 bucks each which have nothing, but nobody complains about that, that's 'normal'. But $3 a month is somehow cruel and horrible for an actual good game.

Free isn't sustainable. How does nobody see this? I'm willing to pay $3 a month for Dominion.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 02:10:11 pm by Seprix »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2016, 02:05:37 pm »
+18

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?

Yeah, I think a pay-per-turn model is what is really needed here.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2016, 02:06:45 pm »
+3

Lots of companies tend to have dedicated customer support. A small concern I do have is how will Stef and SCSN handle the influx of messages they will receive while at the same time maintaining the client and programming new expansions, assuming Empires is not the last Dominion expansion.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2016, 02:16:48 pm »
0

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?

This is certainly a problem with a pay-per-game option, but I hardly think it is unsolvable. Something as simple as "if your opponent resigns in less than X turns or Y seconds, the game doesn't count" would probably keep people who chose that option happy.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2016, 02:18:44 pm »
+3

Online gaming is a service, not a product. A product (like Dominion Offline) you buy once and it requires no further work on anyone's part, you use it until you no longer wish to use it, it is consumed, or it breaks. A service (like Dominion Online) requires the entity providing the service (Stef & SCSN (or more likely, their company)) to continue to spend resources to make the service usable. Based on this, I would expect to pay as I use this service. Sure, it would be great if I never had to pay to play Dominion Online. That isn't reality.
While that is all true, it doesn't stop other companies from providing perpetual online play for a one-time fee. See Ticket to Ride or Kingdom Builder for example.

It seems that some publishers see the online versions of games as tools to help them "upsell" to the cardboard versions, and use those sales to finance the digital versions. I have no idea how well that works, financially, but they surely do. We'll see if those publishers continue to use that model or not. RGG seems reluctant to follow it, to be sure, which is a low-risk way to proceed.

I hope that the offline version allows some type of multi-player, and just means you're not using the developer's servers.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2016, 02:19:37 pm »
+1

Shit, when I first read that I thought it was going to be $3/mo/expansion, or like $30/month!  Now I've read it correctly, and not nearly that bad.

I'm really glad to see that it's actual community people making it!
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2016, 02:20:01 pm »
0

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?

This is certainly a problem with a pay-per-game option, but I hardly think it is unsolvable. Something as simple as "if your opponent resigns in less than X turns or Y seconds, the game doesn't count" would probably keep people who chose that option happy.

Yeah, that's true. I still prefer that format as "you get X free games per day/week/month", rather than "you may pay X$ for Y games".
But maybe other people would like to buy their games that way, idk.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2016, 02:22:52 pm »
+2

Beyond Awesome, two player bases, seriously? That is rather broad. I would rather use half-dozen (ux) personas. Take myself for example. I'm casual who mainly play versus bots to relax after work. That's still a big difference vs a kid playing 4p games in a social setting.

When I say casual gamer, I understand there are subsets of players. Some people only play bots, some play only with friends, others want tablet pass and play. But, when I think of casual vs. hardcore Dominion player, I feel most hardcore players will most likely use the new client more willingly whereas, the "casual" player might not be as easily convinced. I also feel casual players make up the majority of the player base which is why it is important to have something that makes everyone happy.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2016, 02:24:45 pm »
+2

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?

This is certainly a problem with a pay-per-game option, but I hardly think it is unsolvable. Something as simple as "if your opponent resigns in less than X turns or Y seconds, the game doesn't count" would probably keep people who chose that option happy.

I think the best option would be to continue the practice of having access to the Base Set for free, without a subscription.  As well, allow free players to play with subscribed players with the subscribed player's sets.  This would be an incredibly good way to get new players into the game, especially since most people who play a couple games of Dominion usually end up wanting to play it more.  I think the number of people choosing to subscribe will be enough (if not more) to offset the cost of supporting non-paying players, especially since non-paying players will only be able to play with expansions if they play with subscribers.

I think if you have some sort of ranked system, it should quite clearly only be available to subscribers, or at least have two ranks - one for free players, using base only (perhaps with a rotating selection of expansion cards, as has been suggested by others), and one for subscribers.  Non-payers would only be able to play with subscribers in unranked games.

Tournaments were mentioned - I think an excellent prize would be a month or two of free subscription.

EDIT: Hell, if you wanted, you can put advertisements up in non-payer clients.  Whatever ends up working.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2016, 02:25:18 pm »
+2

$3/month ($36 a year, probably cheaper if you buy in bulk) online doesn't sound that bad to me. Why are so many people complaining?
Some of us are unemployed.  :(
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2016, 02:27:25 pm »
+1

Tournaments were mentioned - I think an excellent prize would be a month or two of free subscription.

I spent a while trying to figure out tournaments online, how to set up a system where you could try to generate revenue primarily through tournament entry fees. The problem is prizes, and awarding free subscriptions for winning might be too close to straight up money for money, which would be a mess legally.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2016, 02:29:18 pm »
+1

Tournaments were mentioned - I think an excellent prize would be a month or two of free subscription.

I spent a while trying to figure out tournaments online, how to set up a system where you could try to generate revenue primarily through tournament entry fees. The problem is prizes, and awarding free subscriptions for winning might be too close to straight up money for money, which would be a mess legally.

Ew no fuck that.  Fuck entry fees.  Anyone who wants to play should be able to.  We'll all already be paying for the game anyway.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2016, 02:32:06 pm »
0

Tournaments were mentioned - I think an excellent prize would be a month or two of free subscription.

I spent a while trying to figure out tournaments online, how to set up a system where you could try to generate revenue primarily through tournament entry fees. The problem is prizes, and awarding free subscriptions for winning might be too close to straight up money for money, which would be a mess legally.

Ew no fuck that.  Fuck entry fees.  Anyone who wants to play should be able to.  We'll all already be paying for the game anyway.

Well, this was a totally different system, wherein the game was itself largely free. I was thinking something like Magic Online model, except without packs and new cards and all that jazz. Spoiler alert: I couldn't figure out a model that made sense.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2016, 02:42:44 pm »
0

$3/month ($36 a year, probably cheaper if you buy in bulk) online doesn't sound that bad to me. Why are so many people complaining?
Some of us are unemployed.  :(

If I'm unemployed, I'll probably be losing a lot more than just Dominion. :( Best of luck to you, man.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2016, 02:45:41 pm »
+2

$3/month ($36 a year, probably cheaper if you buy in bulk) online doesn't sound that bad to me. Why are so many people complaining?
Some of us are unemployed.  :(

Not to be a dick or anything...but go mow your neighbor's lawn for $9. You have three months right there. Scraping $3 together in 28 days sounds trivially easy to me. Even my broke-ass, no job, high schooler memories had a change jar that had more than $3 in it.

Tournaments were mentioned - I think an excellent prize would be a month or two of free subscription.

I spent a while trying to figure out tournaments online, how to set up a system where you could try to generate revenue primarily through tournament entry fees. The problem is prizes, and awarding free subscriptions for winning might be too close to straight up money for money, which would be a mess legally.

Ew no fuck that.  Fuck entry fees.  Anyone who wants to play should be able to.  We'll all already be paying for the game anyway.
Yeah fuck entry fees for tournaments. That's a great way to make sure casual people never even bother with tournament formats.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2016, 02:51:37 pm »
+3

$3/month ($36 a year, probably cheaper if you buy in bulk) online doesn't sound that bad to me. Why are so many people complaining?
Some of us are unemployed.  :(

Christmas present from parents?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2016, 02:52:56 pm »
+4

As someone who was initially hesitant (and still am), after thinking about it a bit I'm personally going to put the brakes on questions about the pricing model or really any other concerns.  This announcement right now isn't about much more than "hey Stef and SCSN are doing online Dominion in 2017".  Great, sounds good to me.  They know what they're doing. 

January 2017 is a long way away, so they have a lot of time to get this right, so it's seeming a little premature to get into lengthy discussions about how it's all going to work.  This is only Step 1, and while I would have been ok with Step 0:  stick with MF, but if Steps are going to be made, Step 1 at least was the correct one, so I'm optimistic.  I will be looking forward to the developments as they happen.   
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2016, 02:54:13 pm »
+1

Steps are going to be made

No, Stef is going to be paid.

At least I hope he is.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 02:57:52 pm by Seprix »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #82 on: April 13, 2016, 03:14:08 pm »
+7

Excited about:

-People who are passionate about Dominion making the new client.
-Already lots of thought being put into features and general things around what people want.
-New pricing model that actually makes a lot of sense for an online game, and is really cheap.

Nervous about:

-As Wero pointed out, the size of the "company" that's making this. Now I consider this both a positive and a negative; I have enough experience with software development to know that a smaller team is often capable of getting things done better, and even sometimes faster. However, it does still bring concern about turnaround time for things like bug fixes, new features, and responses to inquiries.

Congrats and good luck!
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #83 on: April 13, 2016, 03:41:39 pm »
0

Maybe a "pay for X number of games" for those who don't play often?  Think prepaid or pay-as-you-go phones.

What constitutes a game, though? If your opponent immediately quits because they didn't like their opening split, is that a game?

This is certainly a problem with a pay-per-game option, but I hardly think it is unsolvable. Something as simple as "if your opponent resigns in less than X turns or Y seconds, the game doesn't count" would probably keep people who chose that option happy.

Yeah, that's true. I still prefer that format as "you get X free games per day/week/month", rather than "you may pay X$ for Y games".
But maybe other people would like to buy their games that way, idk.

I would think this is the type of thing that would be offered as an alternative to a subscription.  Maybe if you don't play very often, it is more cost effective to buy 50 games for $10 than pay monthly.  It's really just a possible answer to the player who says, "I just don't play often enough to justify a subscription".

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2016, 03:43:43 pm »
+1

The easy solution to the subscription model would be that people can register a free account and say get 1 game free a day up to 30 games. Should be plenty for casuals.

If being stricter one can even limit their right to join games, not creating games. 
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #85 on: April 13, 2016, 03:54:04 pm »
0

Sounds interesting.

I have some questions, though:

It's actually happening! Philip (SCSN) and I are building the new version of Dominion Online that will go online on the first of January 2017.

How can you be so sure about that, more than eight months in advance? What makes you sure that you'll have a working client by January that includes the intended features?


* We will never be late on releasing new expansions.

What does that mean? Will there be no new expansions? Will your platform be used for playtesting of new expansions?


I wish you the best of luck, yet it feels a bit awkward to make these kind of promises now.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2016, 03:56:37 pm »
0

allow free players to play with subscribed players with the subscribed player's sets

I'm not sure how well that system worked for Goko/MF, or if it could feasibly transfer over to the new plan.  There is a difference in that, with previous Dominion Online implementations, there were plenty of players with only some of the expansions.  With the new plan, it seems likely that pretty much everyone playing will be paying for all sets anyway (will there really be people who pay $2 for half of the sets but aren't willing to put up the extra $1 for the other half?).
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2016, 04:02:28 pm »
+6

I liked it when players could buy expansions to use online, at their own pace. I'm not a fan of throwing folks into the deep end of full-random (or even half-random). I worry that will turn players off.

Not that I'm optimistic about new players joining without some free trial period, or the ability to play with other people's subscription, or something.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #88 on: April 13, 2016, 04:10:29 pm »
0

Anyways, when that testing thing comes around, I volunteer as tribune.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #89 on: April 13, 2016, 04:13:16 pm »
0

I liked it when players could buy expansions to use online, at their own pace. I'm not a fan of throwing folks into the deep end of full-random (or even half-random). I worry that will turn players off.

Not that I'm optimistic about new players joining without some free trial period, or the ability to play with other people's subscription, or something.

I agree here. It is hard to say if Stef not mentioning a free tier for online means it doesn't exist, or that it is assumed.

I wonder if $2 for half the expansions actually means that it will be something like ~$0.50 per/month/expansion, or get them all for $3/month.  Maybe they haven't even really hashed out the specifics.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #90 on: April 13, 2016, 05:00:32 pm »
+6

Back on Goko, you could buy all expansions for all eternity for about the same price.
That eternity was always an illusion; Goko could not actually offer service past when their contract ran out. It was always a subscription; now it's up-front about it.

There's also the issue of dissuading possible new users to play Dominion online.
Obv. we won't know how the subscription will work out until we've tried it. Good luck, subscription model!

Edit: Oh, and if I want to play with Empires online, I will need to pay $3/month from the start, I presume...
We will let people upgrade from whatever they bought to everything by paying the difference.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #91 on: April 13, 2016, 05:01:57 pm »
+3

The only downside I can think of is that now even more people will say that the league is rigged.  ;) Good luck to both of you!
You are just being hilarious, but obv. if there's an official league then staff will not be allowed to participate.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #92 on: April 13, 2016, 05:06:27 pm »
0

$3/month ($36 a year, probably cheaper if you buy in bulk) online doesn't sound that bad to me. Why are so many people complaining?
Some of us are unemployed.  :(

Not to be a dick or anything...but go mow your neighbor's lawn for $9. You have three months right there. Scraping $3 together in 28 days sounds trivially easy to me. Even my broke-ass, no job, high schooler memories had a change jar that had more than $3 in it.

Tournaments were mentioned - I think an excellent prize would be a month or two of free subscription.

I spent a while trying to figure out tournaments online, how to set up a system where you could try to generate revenue primarily through tournament entry fees. The problem is prizes, and awarding free subscriptions for winning might be too close to straight up money for money, which would be a mess legally.

Ew no fuck that.  Fuck entry fees.  Anyone who wants to play should be able to.  We'll all already be paying for the game anyway.
Yeah fuck entry fees for tournaments. That's a great way to make sure casual people never even bother with tournament formats.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #93 on: April 13, 2016, 05:11:27 pm »
+16

For now, consider me... wary.  When this was first announced, I guess I was expecting an actual company with infrastructure and a team of programmers, rather than... two guys.
When Stef asked for the job, I said no, we wanted a real company. He decided his best shot was writing a program and showing what he could accomplish in two months. That sounded good to us so we waited to see what they managed.

As you can see we were sufficiently impressed.

-Will the Online implementation also include all the features you're advertising on the Offline (campaigns, etc)?
You say "etc." but it looks like it says "random boards, selfmade boards or campaigns against AI." Of course you should be able to play random boards and selfmade boards online. Campaigns, I don't know, maybe. We're not trying to sell the offline product on the strength of campaigns; really it's just there because some people may prefer it.

-Will you have any support for trial users?  In both previous implementations, I could get online friends to try Dominion without them having to pay anything.  Once they saw how good a game it was, they were often encouraged to buy expansions on their own.  However, I think a monthly subscription fee, even $2-3, would be sufficient deterrent for a lot of them to not bother.  If you look at other successful digital card games (Hearthstone, Duelyst), they all have some form of free to play option.
For sure we understand that there has to be a way to try the system for free. For offline play there will be levels you can try, like a campaign. I'm not sure what we do for online play but obv. we have to have some way to try it for free.

-Will you have some sort of pass-and-play feature for Offline (or Online, even)?
If there's demand for it then I hope so. I have no picture of what the demand is there.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 08:47:12 pm by Donald X. »
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #94 on: April 13, 2016, 05:20:30 pm »
+5

But what happens if after a year or two, it's decided that this implementation isn't right either, and it gets switched *again* to another developer.  And the new guys say "hey, here's our new pricing model, y'all got to pay for all the expansions *again*.  And the cycle continues.
From my perspective we are in a much better position in that hypothetical situation than we are now.

- People who subscribe won't be able to buy a subscription for a time when they won't have the contract. So if we decide we hate the new guys, we won't owe anyone any subscriptions; everyone got just what they paid for.
- People who buy the offline version will still have it and be able to play it, for as long as their hardware and OS support it. It's just some program they bought; it doesn't require further interaction with the company.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #95 on: April 13, 2016, 05:30:24 pm »
+5

-Will you have some sort of pass-and-play feature for Offline (or Online, even)?
If there's demand for it then I hope so. I have no picture of what the demand is there.
I just don't see pass-and-play as being remotely feasible as a dominion option.  Reaction cards are going to be logistically almost unmanageable.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #96 on: April 13, 2016, 05:31:55 pm »
+6

I feel extremely mislead in being told that my purchases would transfer over when in fact they basically won't. I understand the need to generate income but this feels like I'm being ripped off. I bought the expansions with the intention of being able to play with my more casual (maybe a few games a year) kind of people and I won't be able to do that anymore. And I have to choose between the "offline" version whatever that means and the online version.
I was also misled! I can't say "to the best of my knowledge" on every post but that is how it went.

Jay and I were prepared to give up the money we made from online Dominion, even convert the profit to an equivalent loss, to keep people customers happy who already bought in. It wasn't much money; no great loss. But, unknown to us somehow, our income from online Dominion was a tiny fraction of the revenue actually taken in. We don't have the money people spent. I can't give you these numbers but that is what happened. We were confident we would just give everyone the new system and then found out where we really stood.

If there is demand for a method of subscribing that accounts for only playing a few times a year, then uh I hope we look into it? I don't want to burn you with promises I can't keep; I just make the expansions. If there are people who only play occasionally then I would be happy to support that, where supporting that means, someone else is actually doing all of that work because I have a different job.

What exactly the offline version "means" will be clearer before people have to make that call. To the best of my knowledge!
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #97 on: April 13, 2016, 05:33:15 pm »
+1

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?
I suspect "both," as it makes the game cheaper for the actual customers.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #98 on: April 13, 2016, 05:34:35 pm »
+3

Is it (financially) unreasonable to have previous purchases from Goko/MF carryover to both the offline version and a year of subscription, instead of requiring the choice?
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #99 on: April 13, 2016, 05:35:32 pm »
+1

Question 1: Will there be a "base game only" free online version like the current MF model? I probably wouldn't have even tried Dominion Online if that wasn't free.
I don't know yet what the free way to try the online version will look like.

Question 2: Will those with half expansions still get to experience all the expansions if paired up with someone who bought the whole package? If so, that is great!
I am guessing no.

"Half the expansions" is just a guess also. We could sell subscriptions by individual expansion; probably so few people want that that it makes more sense to just have a few tiers. No-one has picked out tiers.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #100 on: April 13, 2016, 05:35:52 pm »
0

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?
I suspect "both," as it makes the game cheaper for the actual customers.

Sorry, why is that?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #101 on: April 13, 2016, 05:37:55 pm »
0

Since people are sharing; I don't have too big of an issue with this.  I only really like to play 'offline' anyway, so I'm happy enough to have it carryover.  I'm not sure I'd pay for online, even though it's cheap.  Just because, I feel like it's rare that I'd ever use it. 
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #102 on: April 13, 2016, 05:42:35 pm »
+1

I think I would make individual cards free for limited time as well, as teasers. So one week Conspirator might be the "card of the week" being available even for those who don't own it. In the matches where it appears there will be info about it: "This card is available for free only this week. It is available in Dominion Intrigue. [Buy here]" The double purpose is to get people to want to buy that card (of course) *and* to make it even more fun being a freeloader. It has to be fun even to be a freeloader.
It sounds reasonable to me to have things like card-of-the-week; I don't know if anything like that will happen.

Anyone who wasn't going to buy some entertainment thing anyway, who gets it for free, is probably a net benefit to the people who make the entertainment thing. That's what I think. If you weren't going to buy that album but listen to it on youtube, that may push you slightly towards buying someday, towards seeing a concert, towards recommending the band to a friend who buys the album. You know.

But any deals here had to be acceptable to everyone involved and at the start anyway I don't imagine there will be a lot of freeloading.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2016, 05:45:12 pm »
+2

And, one question, let's say I have every expansion up to Adventures on MF, but I want to play with Empires, will everyone pretty much have to pay $3/month from the get go?
To get everything including Empires you would just have to pay the difference between the cost-per-month for what you have and the cost-per-month for everything.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2016, 05:47:10 pm »
0

And, one question, let's say I have every expansion up to Adventures on MF, but I want to play with Empires, will everyone pretty much have to pay $3/month from the get go?
To get everything including Empires you would just have to pay the difference between the cost-per-month for what you have and the cost-per-month for everything.

So I'm only paying cents on the dollar for Empires first year, because I owned everything else?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 05:48:32 pm by Seprix »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #105 on: April 13, 2016, 05:49:28 pm »
+3

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?

I suspect "both," as it makes the game cheaper for the actual customers.

This would be the "you can only play with the intersection of cards owned by the two players" approach.

That would be worse than the "you can play with the union of cards owned by the two players" approach or the "you can play with either players' cards at at time, your choice of whose" approach. The intersection approach means that I can't play with the expansions with a friend who only plays a few games a year, and it means that those who have purchased the expansions won't want to play with those who don't have all the cards.

To me, union for any cards randomly added in kingdoms (the entire kingdom for full random) + the ability to chose specific Kingdom cards only from one person's cards is the way to go.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #106 on: April 13, 2016, 05:49:40 pm »
0

For sure we understand that there has to be a way to try the system for free. For offline play there will be levels you can try, like a campaign. I'm not sure what we do for online play but obv. we have to have some way to try it for free.

Nice, that's great news!
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #107 on: April 13, 2016, 05:50:49 pm »
+3

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?
I suspect "both," as it makes the game cheaper for the actual customers.

It also makes the matching time unreasonably long for the actual customers unless the new version suddenly has way more actual customers than the current version does.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #108 on: April 13, 2016, 05:55:51 pm »
+27

It's actually happening! Philip (SCSN) and I are building the new version of Dominion Online that will go online on the first of January 2017.

How can you be so sure about that, more than eight months in advance? What makes you sure that you'll have a working client by January that includes the intended features?
For example, they could both die in a car crash tomorrow.

So, at best he's just making a guess based on the available information.

* We will never be late on releasing new expansions.
What does that mean? Will there be no new expansions? Will your platform be used for playtesting of new expansions?
Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #109 on: April 13, 2016, 05:56:56 pm »
+3

I just don't see pass-and-play as being remotely feasible as a dominion option.  Reaction cards are going to be logistically almost unmanageable.
You could have a reduced card list used for it, that didn't include problematic reactions.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #110 on: April 13, 2016, 06:01:39 pm »
+2

Is it (financially) unreasonable to have previous purchases from Goko/MF carryover to both the offline version and a year of subscription, instead of requiring the choice?
Well at this point it would require an addendum to the contract. We did not consider it at the time.

The idea wasn't to make people choose; it was to best handle what actual customers wanted. Currently no-one has offline play; it is not a feature of the MF version. So by default the move was to give people however much time we could of online play in the new version. But we recognize that some people may simply not want to play against people online, and the offline option will be better for them; they actually get their expansions in the new program without paying for them.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #111 on: April 13, 2016, 06:06:33 pm »
+3

Also, would both players need to own all the expansions online, or only the person that creates the game?
I suspect "both," as it makes the game cheaper for the actual customers.

Sorry, why is that?
Suppose only one person on the planet would pay if only they couldn't share the expansions. We can charge less per person to the tune of the amount they pay divided by the number of people, and make the same amount of money.

So, let's try this again. To make whatever level of income, some prices are chosen. Those prices can be lower to get to the same level of income if we don't have the sharing. If we do have the sharing, the prices have to be higher to get the same level of income.

This is not true for the case where the people sharing would never possibly buy anything.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #112 on: April 13, 2016, 06:07:43 pm »
+5

So I'm only paying cents on the dollar for Empires first year, because I owned everything else?
Yes. We haven't announced specific pricing but obv. each expansion can't add up to much.
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werothegreat

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #113 on: April 13, 2016, 06:18:09 pm »
0

Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.

Does Stef's Inheritance actually work properly with Reserves?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #114 on: April 13, 2016, 06:48:27 pm »
+1

who wants to edit the dominion wikipedia page? wero? there is a part where it talks about the online implementation and the current situation would be a good excercise of prose.

it is perhaps worthwhile to remind ourselves why such a section has a smaller word count than the average page about an unsuccessful sports guy or mineral that doesn't do anything: online dominion is not really a commercial thing. i think it is a thing that somebody said that board games are expensive because they are a niche product, and the past online implementations of dominion have just been bad because there isn't an intrinsic motivation to make a good one. it seems like, from salvager data, that there would be ~4000 people (and this is of course a thing that i am not sure of) that would pay the $3/mo, which amounts to $144,000 yearly, and then minus some significant amount because of the other things that have to happen (see previous parenthetical), and then you get a sum of money that seems about appropriate for two guys working part time(ish) for a year without having this revenue and then maintaining the everything for another while.

the worst thing that happens is you don't get to have dominion online; being worried is just a thing that belongs on a different project.

but what do i know.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #115 on: April 13, 2016, 06:50:36 pm »
0

who wants to edit the dominion wikipedia page? wero? there is a part where it talks about the online implementation and the current situation would be a good excercise of prose.

Why don't you do it?

Burning Skull

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #116 on: April 13, 2016, 06:54:03 pm »
+9

who wants to edit the dominion wikipedia page? wero? there is a part where it talks about the online implementation and the current situation would be a good excercise of prose.

Why don't you do it?

Because Wero runs wiki on his own obviously

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #117 on: April 13, 2016, 07:01:01 pm »
+5

So, let's try this again. To make whatever level of income, some prices are chosen. Those prices can be lower to get to the same level of income if we don't have the sharing. If we do have the sharing, the prices have to be higher to get the same level of income.

It seems like this reasoning assumes that the number of "real buyers" is fixed, and then the issue is to get as many of the others (who would just use other people's cards if it's possible) to also buy. But the number of "real buyers" isn't fixed. They look at what it costs and what they get. Getting cards that you can use in matches against your friends and cards you can use in matches against lots of unknown people (so you can get quick and good matchups) is worth a lot more than cards you can only use against other customers.

My view is:

Paying customers should get good matchups (matching their criteria whatever they are) quickly, and then of course they should get to use all their cards in those matchups.
Sometimes it will be possible to match them with other paying customers. Then do. Sometimes it won't. Then even the players who never will pay a cent is a resource. They are like prop players you don't have to pay! When they aren't needed those can be matched against each other and play all Base Set games.

The main reason is to make what is good for paying customers. If there were a freeloader being one of the top players that player would probably often get to play with all cards anyway. That is not because we want to reward the player for being good, it is just because there probably are paying customers who would like to be matched against that player.


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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #118 on: April 13, 2016, 08:05:42 pm »
+1

It seems like this reasoning assumes that the number of "real buyers" is fixed, and then the issue is to get as many of the others (who would just use other people's cards if it's possible) to also buy. But the number of "real buyers" isn't fixed. They look at what it costs and what they get. Getting cards that you can use in matches against your friends and cards you can use in matches against lots of unknown people (so you can get quick and good matchups) is worth a lot more than cards you can only use against other customers.
Feel free to argue about this stuff with your pals on f.ds, or people whose job it is. It's not my job to argue about this stuff and man it's not something I want to do as a hobby.

My view is:

Paying customers should get good matchups (matching their criteria whatever they are) quickly, and then of course they should get to use all their cards in those matchups.
No argument there.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #119 on: April 13, 2016, 08:07:33 pm »
0

Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.

Does Stef's Inheritance actually work properly with Reserves?
I don't remember, and am not checking, but note that he had the advantage of starting the project knowing about the existence of all of the trickiest Dominion cards.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #120 on: April 13, 2016, 08:10:02 pm »
+3

Just wanted to chime in to say how exciting this is. Can't wait to see how it progresses. Congrats on landing the deal, Stef and SCSN.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #121 on: April 13, 2016, 08:33:59 pm »
+10

* We will never be late on releasing new expansions.
What does that mean? Will there be no new expansions? Will your platform be used for playtesting of new expansions?
Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.

I'm so glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that.

Anyway, that clinches it for me.  I didn't have many doubts anyway, but right now it seems the worst case scenario is we have something that works and already includes Adventures.  And they still have 7.5 months to go.

As long as they don't both die, I'm entirely unworried.  So, you know, don't go driving around in the same car guys.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #122 on: April 13, 2016, 08:49:30 pm »
+1

I'm so glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that.

Anyway, that clinches it for me.  I didn't have many doubts anyway, but right now it seems the worst case scenario is we have something that works and already includes Adventures.  And they still have 7.5 months to go.

As long as they don't both die, I'm entirely unworried.  So, you know, don't go driving around in the same car guys.

And don't stare at the sun, either. You can't code if you can't see.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #123 on: April 14, 2016, 01:01:49 am »
+15

@ -Stef- and SCSN:
Congratulations! And thank you. I am so glad that two people who really care about Dominion have stepped up and taken responsibility for giving this great game the online implemtation it deserves. Here's to a brighter Dominion future.

Side note: I am saddened by the tone of a lot of the comments in this thread. I honestly thought we were a bit better than this. IMO we should be offering support and encouragement instead of quibbling over pricing structures before they are even properly up and running. This is two of our own with long track records of positive contributions to the community.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #124 on: April 14, 2016, 02:31:43 am »
+25

@ -Stef- and SCSN:
Congratulations! And thank you. I am so glad that two people who really care about Dominion have stepped up and taken responsibility for giving this great game the online implemtation it deserves. Here's to a brighter Dominion future.

Thanks to you and to everyone posting comments of a similar spirit.

Quote
Side note: I am saddened by the tone of a lot of the comments in this thread. I honestly thought we were a bit better than this. IMO we should be offering support and encouragement instead of quibbling over pricing structures before they are even properly up and running. This is two of our own with long track records of positive contributions to the community.

It's not a problem, I expected the discussion to be mostly about pricing. It's understandable that people are going to get mad when they discover they got the Goko implementation of eternity rather than the real thing. The upside is that these people don't have to pay anything for a year, and we're confident that by the time they would have to start paying again, the positive change they've seen far outweighs the fact that someone else promised them eternity and didn't deliver. And if not that means we've done a poor job and simply don't deserve their further payment.

Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.

Does Stef's Inheritance actually work properly with Reserves?

It does.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #125 on: April 14, 2016, 02:45:26 am »
+1

Interesting news.  I'm trusting you to give us what we need, not what we want.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #126 on: April 14, 2016, 02:46:26 am »
+6

Side note: I am saddened by the tone of a lot of the comments in this thread. I honestly thought we were a bit better than this. IMO we should be offering support and encouragement instead of quibbling over pricing structures before they are even properly up and running. This is two of our own with long track records of positive contributions to the community.

I thought the comments about pricing were mostly constructive.
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ConMan

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #127 on: April 14, 2016, 03:06:43 am »
+1

A new online Dominion client? Does that mean isotropic is shutting down?

In all seriousness, congratulations on landing the contract. I'm sure that it won't be a walk in the park, but I know that both of you have been quite vocal over several of the missing features of Dominion Online that must be pretty high up your priority list. Not to mention, you don't have the albatross of maintaining the legacy client around your necks like Making Fun did, which hopefully means you can build something clean from scratch.

I don't know how I feel about the subscription model - even though I don't play a lot online these days, I like knowing that I can just log in and have all the expansions available when I want - but at the same time I do think it's a smarter approach for a game like this. There are many other aspects that will need to be worked through, and hopefully there will be plenty of community engagement - not just with f.ds, but with the broader community of people who play Dominion online and IRL and who want to play online in the future.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #128 on: April 14, 2016, 03:43:48 am »
+2

I just want to say congratulations too you. It must be a crazy time for you to found an own company.
We all expect you to rock this so that might be your biggest challenge :). I'd been one of those lucky guys to have seen your early build and it looked good to me.
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Burning Skull

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #129 on: April 14, 2016, 03:59:20 am »
+18

I have a feature suggestion: achievements.
Both casual and serious players gonna l-l-love them.

You can add some basic ones, like
"Not so useless" (Reveal four victory cards with a single Scout)
or something more serious like
"Ninja turtle" (Buy out the Province supply pile in one turn)
or something more fun like
"Party pooper" (Discard five Wine Merchants from your Tavern mat simultaneously)
or even something completely idiotic like
"Winning the split" (Set both Princess and Duchess aside using Princes while Duke also being in the kingdom)

blueblimp

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #130 on: April 14, 2016, 04:05:17 am »
+2

Good to hear that Dominion clients will now be developed by people who know the game well and are active in the community.

That said, I am a little nervous about the ambition of the plans: clients on Windows, Mac, Linux, web, phones, tablets (that's a minimum of 6 different clients, 8 if you support both iOS and Android); two different products (online and offline); "never late" (something that just isn't true of software in my experience). The choice of Java as a client platform also concerns me a bit, just because every Java client I've seen has been pretty awful--it might be possible to write a good Java client, I just haven't seen one. It's a great step to have created a compelling prototype in 2 months, but I hope everyone involved understands the jump in difficulty when going from a prototype to a full-fledged cross-platform product.

The $3/month pricing is appealing to me as a player, but I do wonder if there are enough players to support continued development at that price. If the client is good enough to bring in a lot of new players, it could work, but not at the number of people who currently play Dominion online (about 4000 judging by the isotropish leaderboard; back in the days of isotropic, it was about 6000).

But anyway, I wish you success. From my perspective, there's only potential upside, since maybe there'll be a Dominion client that's fun to play on. If not, well, no change from the current situation.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #131 on: April 14, 2016, 04:40:42 am »
+8

Since everyone's sharing their thoughts, I guess I should as well.

Obviously it's fantastic that the people designing Dominion Online this time are long-time, high-skill players. So congrats on that.

The pricing system... I guess I'm okay with it. I'd kind of like for there to be a "bundle" or something, where you get the offline version cheaper if you also get the subscription online or vice versa. And there definitely should be some way to play for free - the Goko model of Base-only-unless-you-land-a-game-with-someone-who-has-all-sets seems like a good starting point. Maybe free players (guest accounts?) could also be blocked off from certain game modes like tournament mode.

In terms of features, I have a couple requests. You don't have to take them, but I think they're worth considering.
- There's going to be a leaderboard, right? If there is, can you maybe implement the option of being able to hide your place on the leaderboard (and your level/rating) from other players, as long as you don't see their level/rating either? It would be sort of like the system Making Fun has now where you know you're automatched with someone on a similar level but you don't know what it actually is. I feel like I might not be the only one who's turned off by any sort of ranking system because it adds instant judgement.
- On that note, please say that unrated games will still be possible - it's the best way to test out contrived boards and unfamiliar combos/cards among other things. It could even be cool if that was table style so we don't get what's going on on MF right now with "Hey, does anyone want to play a game with X cards?"
- It's good that you're doing both a text-based and a graphics-based mode. I've said it before, but what I think Goko and MF got very right was the feeling that you're actually playing a card game - the look of the real cards, the fanned-out hand in front of you, the play area in the middle, the cards moving to and from their various locations. I really don't want that to go away. By all means rearrange it so the information is more convenient (*cough opponent's deck size is always visible cough*), but please try to keep the realism.
- Social features, ya? I got so tired of asking MF for this that I just stopped, but now we're back. I kind of assume you're doing this, because you hinted at something like it with the observing feature (which I can't wait for), but it's worth mentioning anyway. So, friend list, blacklist, seeing who's online, private messaging, that sorta thing.
- Your interactive game log idea looks really great. Can it also include a way to see what your screen (or any player's screen for that matter) would have looked like on each move, without having to play the game from that point on? Or video replay for each turn? Or both? I'm asking this because of the trouble I have with reading logs and I hope I'm not the only one.
- This might be a given since SCSN is involved but it's worth asking anyway. There will be autoplay options, right? Like auto-reveal Moat and stuff?
- And speaking of things to make games go faster, can there be some way to notify people when they're slowrolling? If a player is taking a while on their turn, they should get a message like "You have been inactive for X minutes. Keep playing?" Their opponent also would know that they got the message so they don't have to ask themselves. Maybe if someone is a repeat offender they should start getting captchas or something at some point, and/or their time before they get booted gets gradually shorter.
- You don't have to do this one but it's something I just thought of. What if there was a section outside of games where people can get details on each card? Like if someone was unclear about what a particular card does, they could click on it and get an explanation like "1. Draw one card. 2. Take one action. 3. You may discard one card. 4. If you did, take one action. 5. You may discard one card. 6. If you did, take one buy." There could even be graphics or animations or something but that might take too much time. But each card page should also list the rules clarifications for the card, such as the lose-track rule or the you-can't-Prince-durations thing. So basically this would be like the DS Wiki pages for each card but without the strategy guides. I've seen enough people who make unintended mistakes with cards they don't know because they thought the rules were different that this could be a big help - using it in games with real people should not be possible of course but outside games definitely and against bots might also be nice. Just an idea.

So yeah. Excited for this to happen!
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Lotoreo

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #132 on: April 14, 2016, 04:45:32 am »
0

Great news, I am looking forward to 2017 then!
Though I am really curious how far you can get within one year, being only two people.

You have adventures already implemented? How much is your fee to let me become an early alpha tester? :P
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 05:01:49 am by Lotoreo »
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faust

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #133 on: April 14, 2016, 05:13:51 am »
+2

I have a feature suggestion: achievements.
Both casual and serious players gonna l-l-love them.

You can add some basic ones, like
"Not so useless" (Reveal four victory cards with a single Scout)
or something more serious like
"Ninja turtle" (Buy out the Province supply pile in one turn)
or something more fun like
"Party pooper" (Discard five Wine Merchants from your Tavern mat simultaneously)
or even something completely idiotic like
"Winning the split" (Set both Princess and Duchess aside using Princes while Duke also being in the kingdom)

Personally, I will be pretty pissed if people start playing games to get achievements rather than to win, so I'm not very fond of this idea.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #134 on: April 14, 2016, 05:40:52 am »
+9

I have a feature suggestion: achievements.
Both casual and serious players gonna l-l-love them.
I put together endless lists of achievements in early 2012 (the first list was actually from December 2011). Huh it's 2016 now somehow. Anyway they have been waiting for their moment; they haven't been forgotten.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #135 on: April 14, 2016, 05:41:56 am »
+12

Personally, I will be pretty pissed if people start playing games to get achievements rather than to win, so I'm not very fond of this idea.
Well, you don't get the achievement unless you also win the game. Hope that helps you.
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-Stef-

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #136 on: April 14, 2016, 06:36:10 am »
+10

Would people rather have a thread for talking about pricing and leave this thread for congratulating Stef/SCSN?
Feel free to use this thread for anything. At some point either us or someone else will want a more serious/constructive/dedicated discussion about some specific topic and then I'd advice to create a separate thread for that.

The only downside I can think of is that now even more people will say that the league is rigged.  ;) Good luck to both of you!
You are just being hilarious, but obv. if there's an official league then staff will not be allowed to participate.
When I asked theory to create this board, I also asked him to remove me as a league mod. I already wasn't assigned to any groups this season. So there you go... it already happened. At some point I will also disappear as a player, just not yet.

Does Stef's Inheritance actually work properly with Reserves?
Inheritance has a lot of tricky interactions, but Reserves isn't one of them.

...the feeling that you're actually playing a card game ...
I consider that very important as well. I have good hopes we will be able to go the extra mile there.


« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 06:37:15 am by -Stef- »
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xyz123

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #137 on: April 14, 2016, 06:42:30 am »
0

Congratulations Stef and SCSN. Excellent news that people so into the game have got the contract.

I don't have a problem with the subscription pricing model. For Software as a Service it is the only sensible way. I was surprised that Goko's model of unlimited use for a one off cost. I could not see that working long term as at some point the costs would exceed revenue. My worry though is people (particularly with Making Fun's decision to carry forward Goko purchases) who do not understand the business model will feel that they are being asked to pay again for something they have already paid for and this could cause some ill-feeling.

Really looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
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faust

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #138 on: April 14, 2016, 07:04:16 am »
0

Personally, I will be pretty pissed if people start playing games to get achievements rather than to win, so I'm not very fond of this idea.
Well, you don't get the achievement unless you also win the game. Hope that helps you.

It's better, but depending on the achievement it could still lead to situations where a player with a dominating lead drags out the game much longer than necessary in order to get their achievement.

EDIT: Though you can just resign in that case. So problem solved; go ahead and do your achievements. They should only be awarded for full random ranked games though.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 07:06:41 am by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #139 on: April 14, 2016, 07:09:17 am »
+6

...the feeling that you're actually playing a card game ...
I consider that very important as well. I have good hopes we will be able to go the extra mile there.

So we finally get manual shuffling by moving the cursor? :)
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #140 on: April 14, 2016, 07:35:07 am »
+1

It's better, but depending on the achievement it could still lead to situations where a player with a dominating lead drags out the game much longer than necessary in order to get their achievement.

EDIT: Though you can just resign in that case. So problem solved; go ahead and do your achievements. They should only be awarded for full random ranked games though.
Phew. Yes I don't think you should be able to pick the card mix to go for them.

They are not on any schedule currently but I still think it would be great to do them and well there are these lists ready for if we need them.
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Watno

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #141 on: April 14, 2016, 07:46:34 am »
+4

There are two gamplay features previous implementations didn't have that I'd love to see:
1) Being able to play a subset of one's basic treasures, without alerting the opponent this weren't all of your basic treasures. (On MF, you either "play all treasures", or play them one by one, I'd like to be able to select some treasures, then play them at the same time, so that it looks exactly the same as if I'd hit "play all treasures" to my opponent)
2) Deciding what card goes on top of your discard pile at the end of turn.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #142 on: April 14, 2016, 07:50:37 am »
+1

There are two gamplay features previous implementations didn't have that I'd love to see:
1) Being able to play a subset of one's basic treasures, without alerting the opponent this weren't all of your basic treasures. (On MF, you either "play all treasures", or play them one by one, I'd like to be able to select some treasures, then play them at the same time, so that it looks exactly the same as if I'd hit "play all treasures" to my opponent)
2) Deciding what card goes on top of your discard pile at the end of turn.
Actually, while a generally undo button might be hard, when it comes to playing treasure, an option to retract Basic treasures would be nice.  I can't think of an instance where playing a basic treasure has an immediate effect  (in the Buy phase, at least, Storyteller being a thing), but accidentally playing that copper with a GM on the board is super-bleh.
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #143 on: April 14, 2016, 08:05:29 am »
+1

There are two gamplay features previous implementations didn't have that I'd love to see:
1) Being able to play a subset of one's basic treasures, without alerting the opponent this weren't all of your basic treasures. (On MF, you either "play all treasures", or play them one by one, I'd like to be able to select some treasures, then play them at the same time, so that it looks exactly the same as if I'd hit "play all treasures" to my opponent)
2) Deciding what card goes on top of your discard pile at the end of turn.

I would love to be able to, say, right-click on a bunch of treasures to select them and then hit 'Play Selected Treasures' and then have them all fly down like they would if they were played with the 'Play All' button. It matters rarely, and even then probably way less than we think it matters, but it annoys me, and that's probably where the real effect comes in.
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Watno

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #144 on: April 14, 2016, 08:11:46 am »
+1

That's basically how I imagine it working as well.

Also, Stef and SCSN, are you working on this full-time? Do you plan to keep it as a full-time job after release?
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werothegreat

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #145 on: April 14, 2016, 08:45:28 am »
+1

- You don't have to do this one but it's something I just thought of. What if there was a section outside of games where people can get details on each card? Like if someone was unclear about what a particular card does, they could click on it and get an explanation like "1. Draw one card. 2. Take one action. 3. You may discard one card. 4. If you did, take one action. 5. You may discard one card. 6. If you did, take one buy." There could even be graphics or animations or something but that might take too much time. But each card page should also list the rules clarifications for the card, such as the lose-track rule or the you-can't-Prince-durations thing. So basically this would be like the DS Wiki pages for each card but without the strategy guides. I've seen enough people who make unintended mistakes with cards they don't know because they thought the rules were different that this could be a big help - using it in games with real people should not be possible of course but outside games definitely and against bots might also be nice. Just an idea.

I like this idea, and would be interested in helping out with it if you decided to do it.
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SCSN

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #146 on: April 14, 2016, 08:54:35 am »
+17

That's basically how I imagine it working as well.

Also, Stef and SCSN, are you working on this full-time? Do you plan to keep it as a full-time job after release?

We're working full-time for the company we started (called Shuffle iT). From now until at least early next year it will be on Dominion only.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #147 on: April 14, 2016, 08:59:30 am »
0

That's basically how I imagine it working as well.

Also, Stef and SCSN, are you working on this full-time? Do you plan to keep it as a full-time job after release?

We're working full-time for the company we started (called Shuffle iT). From now until at least early next year it will be on Dominion only.

Did you engage some hip consulting firm to come up with your company name?
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-Stef-

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #148 on: April 14, 2016, 09:07:08 am »
+10

Did you engage some hip consulting firm to come up with your company name?

We started out with Shuffle Luck. Everybody that wasn't into Dominion turned out to associate that name with casinos. And then my sister came up with Shuffle iT.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #149 on: April 14, 2016, 09:11:34 am »
+7

Did you engage some hip consulting firm to come up with your company name?

We started out with Shuffle Luck. Everybody that wasn't into Dominion turned out to associate that name with casinos. And then my sister came up with Shuffle iT.

Your sister should start a hip consulting firm.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #150 on: April 14, 2016, 09:55:01 am »
+2

@ -Stef- and SCSN:
Congratulations! And thank you. I am so glad that two people who really care about Dominion have stepped up and taken responsibility for giving this great game the online implemtation it deserves. Here's to a brighter Dominion future.

Side note: I am saddened by the tone of a lot of the comments in this thread. I honestly thought we were a bit better than this. IMO we should be offering support and encouragement instead of quibbling over pricing structures before they are even properly up and running. This is two of our own with long track records of positive contributions to the community.

Who would have thought the guy named Cactus is a softie.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #151 on: April 14, 2016, 09:55:25 am »
0

Side note: I am saddened by the tone of a lot of the comments in this thread. I honestly thought we were a bit better than this. IMO we should be offering support and encouragement instead of quibbling over pricing structures before they are even properly up and running. This is two of our own with long track records of positive contributions to the community.

I thought the comments about pricing were mostly constructive.

I think most are, but some are a bit toxic.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #152 on: April 14, 2016, 09:56:46 am »
0

...the feeling that you're actually playing a card game ...
I consider that very important as well. I have good hopes we will be able to go the extra mile there.

So we finally get manual shuffling by moving the cursor? :)

With sparkles!
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #153 on: April 14, 2016, 09:58:54 am »
+1

Interesting news.  I'm trusting you to give us what we need, not what we want.

Stefman: The Card Knight.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #154 on: April 14, 2016, 10:01:03 am »
0

Interesting news.  I'm trusting you to give us what we need, not what we want.

Stefman: The Card Knight.
The Joker: um, the Joker.
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #155 on: April 14, 2016, 10:09:10 am »
0

Somehow I totally missed this, but this is great news.
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Kirian

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #156 on: April 14, 2016, 11:35:13 am »
+2

At some point I will also disappear as a player, just not yet.

That's the saddest thing I've ever heard...

...wait, do you mean just in the league?  Because that isn't nearly as sad.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #157 on: April 14, 2016, 11:49:45 am »
+8

Did you engage some hip consulting firm to come up with your company name?

We started out with Shuffle Luck. Everybody that wasn't into Dominion turned out to associate that name with casinos. And then my sister came up with Shuffle iT.

Also, everyone into Dominion would have assumed we'd all have to build our own program.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #158 on: April 14, 2016, 12:05:26 pm »
+9

I think most are, but some are a bit toxic.

To be sung on the Tavern mat:

The Great King Theory to us hath decreed
That we work together, no enemies
Instead, A Decline in Civility
Hath rock'd this place with wars of infamy


Old King Theory was weary of fighting
The blood of enemies upon his crown
He picked up a quill and began writing
And laid his legend'ry Banhammer down

He wrote of the law, of tales and stories
He sent off the transcripts to his Envoy
The regulations of written glories
For his mighty Empire to enjoy

The Great King Theory to us hath decreed
That we work together, no enemies
Instead, A Decline in Civility
Hath rock'd this place with wars of infamy


There were many people who grumbled and such
About unfair taxation upon them
Three dollars a month was just way too much
King Theory and his words they now comdemn'd

King Theory sent mages forth to dispel
The wrath of his people, but then alas
Stef and SCSN were attack'd and fell
At the hands of the people, middle-class

The Great King Theory to us hath decreed
That we work together, no enemies
Instead, A Decline in Civility
Hath rock'd this place with wars of infamy


The Great King Theory was very saddened
Wracked with sorrow, he prayed to the God X
He was told that he must take up his weap'n
The Banhammer to take what was annex'd

The people saw their king, The Great Hamm'r stung
All the hedonist youths, who curs'd and ran
Ban! Ban! With The Great Hammer, Theory swung
And punish'd them all with ban upon ban

The Great King Theory to us hath decreed
That we work together, no enemies
Instead, A Decline in Civility
Hath rock'd this place with wars of infamy

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #159 on: April 14, 2016, 12:29:46 pm »
+1

At some point I will also disappear as a player, just not yet.

That's the saddest thing I've ever heard...

...wait, do you mean just in the league?  Because that isn't nearly as sad.

Yah. I really hope you don't stop playing Dominion just because you own and created the new client. I can understand not playing in tournaments though since some might see that as a conflict of interest.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #160 on: April 14, 2016, 12:40:06 pm »
+1

The only downside I can think of is that now even more people will say that the league is rigged.  ;) Good luck to both of you!
You are just being hilarious, but obv. if there's an official league then staff will not be allowed to participate.

Yeah, this was of course a joke, I tend to expect that people will play fair as a default.

At some point I will also disappear as a player, just not yet.

That's the saddest thing I've ever heard...

...wait, do you mean just in the league?  Because that isn't nearly as sad.

Yah. I really hope you don't stop playing Dominion just because you own and created the new client. I can understand not playing in tournaments though since some might see that as a conflict of interest.

I also hope you guys don't stop making videos just because you're not in the league. Maybe you can have some videos showcasing new or upcoming features in the client or something.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #161 on: April 14, 2016, 12:49:59 pm »
+1

I hope Stef doesn't completely quit playing Dominion at all. I want him to be happy in whatever he does though, so if he is sick of Dominion because of all the headaches, I fully support that. The point of games is to have fun. If you're not having fun, why play? I remember this thing written by Jsh about not having fun with Dominion, and taking a break, which really opened my eyes and actually helped me become a better player and person. I was so worried about winning, that I lost sight of the fun involved, and I made careless errors instead of relaxing and enjoying the game.

That being said, I think he just meant the League.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #162 on: April 14, 2016, 01:03:22 pm »
+9

I thought of something, Stef/SCSCN, can you please, please, please have an option to allow the Base Art cards version of basic treasures and victory cards. I prefer them much more when I play irl. I think they look a lot better than a bunch of giant numbers.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #163 on: April 14, 2016, 01:05:29 pm »
+6

I thought of something, Stef/SCSCN, can you please, please, please have an option to allow the Base Art cards version of basic treasures and victory cards. I prefer them much more when I play irl. I think they look a lot better than a bunch of giant numbers.

*cough*I'd even pay for this *cough*
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #164 on: April 14, 2016, 03:07:57 pm »
0

I thought of something, Stef/SCSCN, can you please, please, please have an option to allow the Base Art cards version of basic treasures and victory cards. I prefer them much more when I play irl. I think they look a lot better than a bunch of giant numbers.

Really? I personally would hate that. I like the simplicity.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #165 on: April 14, 2016, 03:25:10 pm »
+9

I thought of something, Stef/SCSCN, can you please, please, please have an option to allow the Base Art cards version of basic treasures and victory cards. I prefer them much more when I play irl. I think they look a lot better than a bunch of giant numbers.

Really? I personally would hate that. I like the simplicity.

The beauty of computers is that you could be playing a game together, each with your preferred art style on the basic cards.

Personally I prefer the art versions.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #166 on: April 14, 2016, 04:24:34 pm »
+9

I remember when Goko/Funsockets was announced, and how ridiculous it seemed back then that an entire software company was being built to take the place of something one guy had built in his spare time. They even had a VP of Monetization! Fast forward several years and now some people are concerned that there's NOT a bloated software company running the show.

While I can understand people being skeptical, and even a little skittish when faced with the prospect of Yet Another Online Dominion iteration, there are more than enough success stories out there of small teams (or individuals) creating great software that I'm not worried.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #167 on: April 14, 2016, 04:36:05 pm »
+1

I thought of something, Stef/SCSCN, can you please, please, please have an option to allow the Base Art cards version of basic treasures and victory cards. I prefer them much more when I play irl. I think they look a lot better than a bunch of giant numbers.

Really? I personally would hate that. I like the simplicity.

The beauty of computers is that you could be playing a game together, each with your preferred art style on the basic cards.

Personally I prefer the art versions.

Aye, I've said it one year ago in the "payment models" thread, and I'll pester everybody once more now, but I think having personalized, buyable/winnable fashionable alternate art versions of some cards would be awesome. Like, while Coppers are in my deck, they feature kittens. Or Adventurers feature hobbits. The possibilities are endless. It could be confusing and annoying if overdone, but think about the envy of your opponents! (since it doesn't affect other people's decks, it wouldn't be too bad - you'd always be playing with the art you're familiar with)
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #168 on: April 14, 2016, 05:00:21 pm »
0

but think about the envy of your opponents! (since it doesn't affect other people's decks, it wouldn't be too bad - you'd always be playing with the art you're familiar with)

How would your opponents know?  Like, when you play a Copper from your deck, it shows up a Kitten in the playspace in the GUI?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #169 on: April 14, 2016, 05:15:19 pm »
+1

but think about the envy of your opponents! (since it doesn't affect other people's decks, it wouldn't be too bad - you'd always be playing with the art you're familiar with)

How would your opponents know?  Like, when you play a Copper from your deck, it shows up a Kitten in the playspace in the GUI?

Yep, that's pretty much it. Revealing cards too. And when they pass the card to you with Masq, you see the alt art slowly fading in front of your eyes.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 05:16:43 pm by Accatitippi »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #170 on: April 14, 2016, 05:17:35 pm »
0

but think about the envy of your opponents! (since it doesn't affect other people's decks, it wouldn't be too bad - you'd always be playing with the art you're familiar with)

How would your opponents know?  Like, when you play a Copper from your deck, it shows up a Kitten in the playspace in the GUI?

Yep, that's pretty much it. Revealing cards too. And when they pass the card to you with Masq, you see the alt art slowly fading in front of your eyes.

Troll them and put Colony art on your Curses.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #171 on: April 14, 2016, 05:21:44 pm »
+1

I thought of something, Stef/SCSCN, can you please, please, please have an option to allow the Base Art cards version of basic treasures and victory cards. I prefer them much more when I play irl. I think they look a lot better than a bunch of giant numbers.

Really? I personally would hate that. I like the simplicity.

Well, isn't this cool then:

* We intend to have different clients for different people. One will look as pretty as we can make it, one will be sober, with minimal images and mostly text.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #172 on: April 14, 2016, 07:53:59 pm »
0

On the topic of changing card art, maybe now we can get the official art for stash.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #173 on: April 14, 2016, 09:35:54 pm »
+2

I was browsing around the wiki and stumbled upon an interview-ish thing ednever did with Jay of RGG back in 2012, and found this, regarding a feature planned for Goko:

If you are playing against someone and they drop off for whatever reason, the AI will take over.

Any plans to implement this feature?

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #174 on: April 14, 2016, 09:50:17 pm »
+2

I was browsing around the wiki and stumbled upon an interview-ish thing ednever did with Jay of RGG back in 2012, and found this, regarding a feature planned for Goko:

If you are playing against someone and they drop off for whatever reason, the AI will take over.

Any plans to implement this feature?

I like it better when I don't have to play a bot who might have a small chance of beating me somehow when the opponent quits.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #175 on: April 14, 2016, 10:14:35 pm »
+2

I was browsing around the wiki and stumbled upon an interview-ish thing ednever did with Jay of RGG back in 2012, and found this, regarding a feature planned for Goko:

If you are playing against someone and they drop off for whatever reason, the AI will take over.

Any plans to implement this feature?

I like it better when I don't have to play a bot who might have a small chance of beating me somehow when the opponent quits.

Actually, come to think of it, the magic "click to continue from here" logs ought to take care of it. But it would be neat if it were kinda seamless, like a popup asking you if you wish to continue versus AI.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #176 on: April 14, 2016, 10:56:31 pm »
+2

I was browsing around the wiki and stumbled upon an interview-ish thing ednever did with Jay of RGG back in 2012, and found this, regarding a feature planned for Goko:

If you are playing against someone and they drop off for whatever reason, the AI will take over.

Any plans to implement this feature?

I like it better when I don't have to play a bot who might have a small chance of beating me somehow when the opponent quits.

Actually, come to think of it, the magic "click to continue from here" logs ought to take care of it. But it would be neat if it were kinda seamless, like a popup asking you if you wish to continue versus AI.

I think this matters more in 3P+
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #177 on: April 14, 2016, 11:00:31 pm »
0

And, in continuing with the AI, it should still count as a win or a non-game, as it would if you just chose not to play.

I would like this, as people often resign just as you're getting some fun engine working (they are clearly unimpressed that you are playing six goons with watchtower in hand), but it would be fun to finish it up.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #178 on: April 15, 2016, 03:55:06 am »
+1

I was browsing around the wiki and stumbled upon an interview-ish thing ednever did with Jay of RGG back in 2012, and found this, regarding a feature planned for Goko:

If you are playing against someone and they drop off for whatever reason, the AI will take over.

Any plans to implement this feature?

I like it better when I don't have to play a bot who might have a small chance of beating me somehow when the opponent quits.

They could give you the win, then ask if you want to continue against the AI for an unrated game.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #179 on: April 15, 2016, 04:41:52 am »
+1

I was browsing around the wiki and stumbled upon an interview-ish thing ednever did with Jay of RGG back in 2012, and found this, regarding a feature planned for Goko:

If you are playing against someone and they drop off for whatever reason, the AI will take over.

Any plans to implement this feature?

I like it better when I don't have to play a bot who might have a small chance of beating me somehow when the opponent quits.

They could give you the win, then ask if you want to continue against the AI for an unrated game.

Hey, that could combo well with achievements. If you have no chance of winning but your opponent is obviously drawing the game out to be able to piledrive Colonies, you can resign and move on while they finish up and get their achievement.

Speaking of achievements (if they're actually a thing), you could get around the people-making-stupid-moves-then-leaving problem by having purely luck-based ones. Like having $6 or more in treasures on turn 1.
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pst

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #180 on: April 15, 2016, 04:42:13 am »
+1

I was browsing around the wiki and stumbled upon an interview-ish thing ednever did with Jay of RGG back in 2012, and found this, regarding a feature planned for Goko:

If you are playing against someone and they drop off for whatever reason, the AI will take over.

Any plans to implement this feature?

I like it better when I don't have to play a bot who might have a small chance of beating me somehow when the opponent quits.

Ideally for me:

If there is only one human left in the game the human wins but gets the opportunity to continue the game against a robot they choose if they want to see how it would turn out.

If there are several humans left in the game the lost player is replaced by a bot that is supposed to not be better than the lost player. Probably just put DumbBot there, but it could be possible to put SmartBot there if the lost playing has a rating over some threshold.
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thespaceinvader

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #181 on: April 15, 2016, 04:42:23 am »
0

Great news, I am super pumped and will gladly throw $3 (or however much) a month at a subscription online Dominion service that's actually reliable and run by people who understand security and are good at their work.

Really pleased to hear this!

On another note, do we know anything about whether this will be on mobile platforms yet?  Playing some Dominion on my droid over lunch would be wicked.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 04:43:56 am by thespaceinvader »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #182 on: April 15, 2016, 06:00:03 am »
0

I was browsing around the wiki and stumbled upon an interview-ish thing ednever did with Jay of RGG back in 2012, and found this, regarding a feature planned for Goko:

If you are playing against someone and they drop off for whatever reason, the AI will take over.

Any plans to implement this feature?

I like it better when I don't have to play a bot who might have a small chance of beating me somehow when the opponent quits.

Ideally for me:

If there is only one human left in the game the human wins but gets the opportunity to continue the game against a robot they choose if they want to see how it would turn out.

If there are several humans left in the game the lost player is replaced by a bot that is supposed to not be better than the lost player. Probably just put DumbBot there, but it could be possible to put SmartBot there if the lost playing has a rating over some threshold.

I don't know, I'd rather play with a competent bot and have a good time and losing, rather than having to play through the rest of the game with a dummy player.
Of course, if the bot wins the game is forfeit, or at least it shouldn't award the quitter any points.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #183 on: April 15, 2016, 08:08:09 am »
0

I thought of something, Stef/SCSCN, can you please, please, please have an option to allow the Base Art cards version of basic treasures and victory cards. I prefer them much more when I play irl. I think they look a lot better than a bunch of giant numbers.

Really? I personally would hate that. I like the simplicity.

The beauty of computers is that you could be playing a game together, each with your preferred art style on the basic cards.

Personally I prefer the art versions.

I agree, I agree. :) As long as we both can get what we want at, assuming low efforts for the programmers, that would be cool.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #184 on: April 15, 2016, 09:39:37 am »
+30

Great news, I am super pumped and will gladly throw $3 (or however much) a month at a subscription online Dominion service that's actually reliable and run by people who understand security and are good at their work.

Actually it doesn't matter that much if it costs $3 or $4; the big gap is to $5, which most players can't reach in the beginning.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #185 on: April 15, 2016, 09:44:43 am »
+7

Great news, I am super pumped and will gladly throw $3 (or however much) a month at a subscription online Dominion service that's actually reliable and run by people who understand security and are good at their work.

Actually it doesn't matter that much if it costs $3 or $4; the big gap is to $5, which most players can't reach in the beginning.
When we start paying Stef and SCSN in little blue bottles of dubious content, we'll know for sure that we as a community have a serious problem.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #186 on: April 15, 2016, 09:55:34 am »
+1

I was going to finish that nuclear reactor, but Stef demanded Platinum as payment.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #187 on: April 15, 2016, 10:40:05 am »
+1

I was going to finish that nuclear reactor, but Stef demanded Platinum as payment.

He needs it to make sure his giant mecha is bending-proof.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #188 on: April 15, 2016, 11:03:19 am »
0

Congrats, looking forward to 2017!

But Stef and SCSN both leaving the league, that's a bummer
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #189 on: April 15, 2016, 11:18:19 am »
+1

So some basic questions that might be known to people other than me already:

- So do you guys know each other outside of this forum? Do you live in the same city?

- I saw the mentioned about a company name... are you quitting your regular jobs to go into this new business full time?

- If so, do you plan on doing more with this company aside from Dominion Online?

- Assuming that these other jobs exist, are you both software programmers professionally?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #190 on: April 15, 2016, 02:19:49 pm »
0

Great news, I am super pumped and will gladly throw $3 (or however much) a month at a subscription online Dominion service that's actually reliable and run by people who understand security and are good at their work.

Actually it doesn't matter that much if it costs $3 or $4; the big gap is to $5, which most players can't reach in the beginning.

How do you know if there isn't much difference between $3 and $4. $4 is another $12 a year that everyone would be paying for the service. That adds up.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #191 on: April 15, 2016, 02:21:57 pm »
+5

Great news, I am super pumped and will gladly throw $3 (or however much) a month at a subscription online Dominion service that's actually reliable and run by people who understand security and are good at their work.

Actually it doesn't matter that much if it costs $3 or $4; the big gap is to $5, which most players can't reach in the beginning.

How do you know if there isn't much difference between $3 and $4. $4 is another $12 a year that everyone would be paying for the service. That adds up.

$3 Dominion implementations tend to be just as good as $4 Dominion implementations, so people will often spend $4 or a $3 implementation anyway.
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ObtusePunubiris

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #192 on: April 15, 2016, 05:51:04 pm »
+1

Great news, I am super pumped and will gladly throw $3 (or however much) a month at a subscription online Dominion service that's actually reliable and run by people who understand security and are good at their work.

Actually it doesn't matter that much if it costs $3 or $4; the big gap is to $5, which most players can't reach in the beginning.

How do you know if there isn't much difference between $3 and $4. $4 is another $12 a year that everyone would be paying for the service. That adds up.

$3 Dominion implementations tend to be just as good as $4 Dominion implementations, so people will often spend $4 or a $3 implementation anyway.

That's generally true, but I'm not sure about it in this case.  I just don't know if Dominion implementation is strong enough to justify $4.  Maybe someone can run some simulations and see.
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sitnaltax

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #193 on: April 15, 2016, 09:03:21 pm »
+4

This is fantastic news for Dominion to be back in fan hands after so long in the wilderness. Congratulations and good luck to you both!

To echo a couple of requests that others made:

  • Social features, even rudimentary ones, are missing from MF and I think it really cripples the game. I hope for friend lists, block lists, a way to chat with friends that aren't my opponent, and a way to share blocklists.
  • A way to report players for intentional slowplay, rudeness/viciousness, or a Decline of Civility would be great.
  • I think alternate art cards would be a fantastic addition, whether they come as tournament prizes, promos, along with achievements, or whatever. Collecting them would be fun! As jsh showed us, some of the early cards especially would benefit from alternate art. You could also make steps toward the "hey, why are there so few women in the illustrations" issue.
  • Another possible tournament award is titles. In USCF chess, when you participate in a tournament and play at least as well as a player of <whatever> rating, you earn a "norm" to the title associated with that ranking. Five such norms and you earn the title. (Bridge works similarly, but rather than Elo-style ratings, some number of your points have to come from tournaments of sufficient size/competition level to attract strong enough opposition, depending on the title you're working toward)
  • A third possible tournament award is badges or medals displayed on your user page or whatever. Bigger tournament = bigger medal, higher ranking = shinier medal.

The idea I brainstormed was: An 8-person casual tournament has a first prize of, say, 100 points, 50 for second, 25 for third, and 10 participation points for everyone. A typical alt art promo costs 100 points. You can also earn points for nontournament  playing, possibly 10/day or so, so even if you log on and have an awful day--hey, you're making progress towards that sweet alt art Scout.

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #194 on: April 15, 2016, 09:30:00 pm »
0

I see a problem with that idea. I like the concept of alt artwork but art cost money to acquire and then there might not be enough demand to have those versions of cards printed IRL.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 09:31:26 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #195 on: April 15, 2016, 10:01:41 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure the original suggestion in regards to alternate art was to have the option to use the art from the separate Base Cards set instead of the big numbers, which I would be quite happy about. I'm not sure when the idea of different art for kingdom cards came up; that sounds a little weird.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #196 on: April 15, 2016, 11:10:18 pm »
0

It might not be a implementable idea, but I bet a number of the folks around here would pay a buck or two to have Isotropic art.

JerseyFrank

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #197 on: April 15, 2016, 11:14:39 pm »
+3

Can you expose a RESTful API so that the community can lighten the load on client development?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #198 on: April 16, 2016, 09:26:02 am »
+4

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #199 on: April 16, 2016, 02:25:03 pm »
+7

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.

The thing about subscriptions is, you don't have to pay every month!  Shit hit the fan IRL?  Cancel for the next few months, bam, done.  You could request/suggest that the free year be allowed to be taken as 12 months, I suppose.

And yes, you could argue that a donation model might work.  But how many people will donate to server costs?  Would they need a yearly donation drive like BGG or Wikipedia?  How quickly would that start to hurt?  I personally would rather have a sustainable service, and $3 a month is an incredible price point.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #200 on: April 16, 2016, 02:39:42 pm »
+4

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.

The thing about subscriptions is, you don't have to pay every month!  Shit hit the fan IRL?  Cancel for the next few months, bam, done.  You could request/suggest that the free year be allowed to be taken as 12 months, I suppose.

And yes, you could argue that a donation model might work.  But how many people will donate to server costs?  Would they need a yearly donation drive like BGG or Wikipedia?  How quickly would that start to hurt?  I personally would rather have a sustainable service, and $3 a month is an incredible price point.

Well said.  Really, this feeling that people have of getting multiply charged is Goko/Making Fun's fault of setting up their model the way they did in the first place.  I believe if this were the very first implementation of Online Dominion, people wouldn't be so affronted by the subscription model, even if they didn't agree that it was optimal.
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Mavy2k

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #201 on: April 16, 2016, 03:24:33 pm »
+1

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.

The thing about subscriptions is, you don't have to pay every month!  Shit hit the fan IRL?  Cancel for the next few months, bam, done.  You could request/suggest that the free year be allowed to be taken as 12 months, I suppose.

And yes, you could argue that a donation model might work.  But how many people will donate to server costs?  Would they need a yearly donation drive like BGG or Wikipedia?  How quickly would that start to hurt?  I personally would rather have a sustainable service, and $3 a month is an incredible price point.

Well said.  Really, this feeling that people have of getting multiply charged is Goko/Making Fun's fault of setting up their model the way they did in the first place.  I believe if this were the very first implementation of Online Dominion, people wouldn't be so affronted by the subscription model, even if they didn't agree that it was optimal.

Yeah, the payment model is not that terrible. Paying yet another time for Dominion is. I bought the sets irl, bought some on MF and have to pay again, if I want to have the option to play the occasional game. If I were playing more Dominion I wouldn´t mind this at all, but I don´t see myself playing enough games. For me it would probably come down that I am paying about $1 for each game I am playing online.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #202 on: April 16, 2016, 03:54:01 pm »
+1

I understand people being upset over pricing. But, we will get the new service for free for a year. After playing for a year, we can decide if it is worth the subscription cost or not.
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Mavy2k

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #203 on: April 16, 2016, 04:17:18 pm »
0

I feel the need to add something.
I did not understand the thing about the offline client at first.
I thought the MF client could do that, got unsure and tested it and it can not do that.
With this revelation I feel pretty okay with my stuff getting transfered to the offline client, might be nice to have the option to play that on the bus, even when I obviously have never bothered with this.
I do think that the new model is better than the current/old. It´s just that the whole situation makes me feel a bit sour about Dominion in general.
I realise that this is unfair towards the new team. If I had started to play Dominion today and not already invested any money in the game I would be really happy about this news.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #204 on: April 16, 2016, 07:49:49 pm »
+18

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.
From my perspective, some random strangers made an unreasonable promise to people about my game, gave me a tiny fraction of the money taken in, and now people expect me to make good on that promise those strangers made.

To support older players to the degree that we are, we will already be out more money than we've ever made from online Dominion. I would be better off there had never been official online Dominion. Not even considering the ridiculous number of hours of work I've put into these failed versions; if I got to keep the money it would still be the worst job I've had since the 80s.

You may note that the new system doesn't put us in this situation. People who buy offline sets can still play them if the publisher dies; people who buy the subscription aren't owed anything when it runs out.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #205 on: April 16, 2016, 07:52:47 pm »
+6

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.
Let us be clear, there are ongoing costs, but they aren't server costs. The server costs are small compared to the cost of having people continue to devote whatever hours are necessary to the project.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #206 on: April 16, 2016, 08:05:59 pm »
+1

I sympathize with the people who are like 'meh, paying again?' but the chances of the ultimate product be better is not small, in part because of the monthly payment.

My guess is: if the ultimate product is worth it, they (the consumers) will come.



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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #207 on: April 16, 2016, 08:24:33 pm »
+19

I mean, four years ago I paid $45 to a company that doesn't exist anymore for what's amounted to a few thousand hours of entertainment. I realize people who bought in a month ago aren't in the same position, but the fact that the new company (which is just trying to get its feet off the ground) is honoring that purchase in any way is frankly kind of incredible to me. People are getting something for free and complaining about it not being good enough, it's just baffling to me.
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RevanFan

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #208 on: April 16, 2016, 08:49:00 pm »
0

I have a question regarding the new pay model. I know you likely don't have all the answers, but at least some info would be great. I currently own all the expansions on the current platform. I know it was stated earlier that, if you own all the previous sets, you'd get the first year free, only being charged the difference when a new expansion (Empires) comes out. Would that still be the case if I don't purchase the Making Fun version of Adventures whenever they finish it? If I have every set except for Adventures when January comes, will I still get the year free, and be charged the difference for both Adventures and Empires?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 08:53:54 pm by RevanFan »
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #209 on: April 16, 2016, 08:56:57 pm »
+2

I have a question regarding the new pay model. I know you likely don't have all the answers, but at least some info would be great. I currently own all the expansions on the current platform. I know it was stated earlier that, if you own all the previous sets, you'd get the first year free, only being charged the difference when a new expansion (Empires) comes out. Would that still be the case if I don't purchase the Making Fun version of Adventures whenever they finish it? If I have every set except for Adventures when January comes, will I still get the year free, and be charged the difference for both Adventures and Empires?
Yes, whatever random mix of expansions you have, there will be a way to pay the difference to upgrade to everything. If there are two packaged tiers or something, there might not be a way to upgrade to a tier other than the everything tier. And you don't need to upgrade to everything if you don't want to.
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RevanFan

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #210 on: April 16, 2016, 09:39:22 pm »
+1

Good to know. Thanks. In that case, I think I may wait to get Adventures until the new client comes out in January. The only person I play online with is my dad and we have more than enough fun with the pre-Adventures sets (though, admittedly, Adventures is my favorite expansion.)
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Philipp_G

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #211 on: April 17, 2016, 04:47:28 pm »
0

On the one hand I'm really happy to hear such a good news, but on the other I'm a bit sad because I'm new to Dominion and I've spent $94,98 last month in order to buy all the sets (first I bought Seaside for $14,99 and then all sets for $79,99, now I have 75 ducats of change). I hope that developers could take it into account somehow :-\
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Awaclus

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #212 on: April 17, 2016, 05:32:04 pm »
+4

Could it be possible to turn everyone's expansions that they already own into some kind of a virtual currency that can be spent to pay for the expansions online (in such a way that owning all the expansions would still give you exactly enough to pay for all the expansions for a year)? That way, instead of making people pay the difference between all the expansions and the expansions that they owned on MF, they could choose to play with all the expansions but for a shorter time. As far as I can understand, it wouldn't really make a huge difference from Shuffle iT's perspective, but I think that a lot of people might appreciate it.
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The_Tricksta

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #213 on: April 17, 2016, 08:30:37 pm »
0

To support older players to the degree that we are, we will already be out more money than we've ever made from online Dominion. I would be better off there had never been official online Dominion. Not even considering the ridiculous number of hours of work I've put into these failed versions; if I got to keep the money it would still be the worst job I've had since the 80s.

You may note that the new system doesn't put us in this situation. People who buy offline sets can still play them if the publisher dies; people who buy the subscription aren't owed anything when it runs out.

Thank you for your insight on this. I am sorry to hear that you had to go through all of that chaos and had to make the choice of going for yet another shot on a software implementation of Dominion. The previous pay model was bonkers obviously which made my friends shy away from Dominion Online but if you "fell" for it, you're now in this peculiar spot where this one company is not going to give you what they promised. I didn't really mean to lash out at you, I am just frustrated because of this entire situation.

I mean, four years ago I paid $45 to a company that doesn't exist anymore for what's amounted to a few thousand hours of entertainment. I realize people who bought in a month ago aren't in the same position, but the fact that the new company (which is just trying to get its feet off the ground) is honoring that purchase in any way is frankly kind of incredible to me. People are getting something for free and complaining about it not being good enough, it's just baffling to me.

If I would've gotten thousands of hours out of the money that I paid for Dominion Online I actually wouldn't be as annoyed as I am. My main problem with the whole free stuff is that you only get a choice between the offline and online service. If it would be both I would actually be more fine with the whole new pay model. While it isn't the job at all from the new dev team to reimburse us for any of the mistakes MF did, it would at least be a nice closure to all of the failures that had happened in the past. If the new piece of software is awesome you can sure as heck expect me to pay for your online services in the following years but right now it just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth and I am left questioning myself why I just didn't spend $90 on a physical Cornucopia set instead.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #214 on: April 17, 2016, 08:38:28 pm »
0

It isn't the job at all from the new dev team to reimburse us for any of the mistakes MF did

You just answered your own complaints.

That's the trouble with digital content. If the company goes down, there goes all your lovely software.

The_Tricksta

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #215 on: April 17, 2016, 08:55:58 pm »
0

You just answered your own complaints.

That's the trouble with digital content. If the company goes down, there goes all your lovely software.

Yes, that is correct. That is why I brought it up, since I am very well aware of that problem as a software developer myself. You know, what I also did? I asked to make this entire happening more consumer friendly so people won't feel cheated out of their money if they just recently paid for the services of MF. So please, don't quote me out of context.

Maybe your intent was something else, but I got a rather passive aggressive vibe from your post. If that wasn't the intent I apologize in advance.
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Seprix

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #216 on: April 17, 2016, 09:10:40 pm »
+2

There's always someone to blame for something. After MF's Dominion implementation goes under, Stef and SCSN will have their own new thing, and people are going to hate it for the sake of hating it, or because the last people messed it up and did it wrong in the first place. People are going to start grumbling like the Israelites in Caanan. If only they could be slaves again in Egypt, they could have those nice fruits and sand or whatever. I'm not holding Stef accountable for MF's decisions. He has enough on his plate already.

People always focus on the negative and point out all the bad things. I am excited for what's coming out next year, and I will do all in my power to help create a better product.

I think that Stef and SCSN will do the best decision. I actually trust them because I know them.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 09:12:08 pm by Seprix »
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amoffett11

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #217 on: April 17, 2016, 11:32:09 pm »
+2

I feel bad about people who've bought the full set very recently; I feel worse about the people who might buy the full set tomorrow.  Or next month.  Does anyone know what it looks like to someone who may decide to buy everything now?  I assume the price is still the same.  I guess if someone decided to look very hard they could find threads like this one, or the "2016 plan and future" thread over at MF, and read between the lines, but it seems more likely that most people might get the whole thing not knowing about the upcoming switch. 

I'm pretty much at peace now with the fact that I got my money's worth (and more) getting the whole set back when I did in September 2015.  But someone who gets it today?  Not so much.  Someone who spends $90 dollars in September 2016, only to find out that in 4 months it's going to be converted to a $36 year pass might be somewhat unhappy.  It's hard to expect MF to put up a big sign that says "Don't buy this!  Wait for 2017!", but at what point does it become dishonest for them to keep selling the whole set for $90 without some kind of disclaimer?  I feel like we might already be there. 
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #218 on: April 17, 2016, 11:53:02 pm »
+4

I'm pretty much at peace now with the fact that I got my money's worth (and more) getting the whole set back when I did in September 2015.  But someone who gets it today?  Not so much.  Someone who spends $90 dollars in September 2016, only to find out that in 4 months it's going to be converted to a $36 year pass might be somewhat unhappy.  It's hard to expect MF to put up a big sign that says "Don't buy this!  Wait for 2017!", but at what point does it become dishonest for them to keep selling the whole set for $90 without some kind of disclaimer?  I feel like we might already be there.
Well I made a note in the MF thread and linked to this subforum.
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liopoil

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #219 on: April 18, 2016, 12:29:19 am »
0

Could it be possible to turn everyone's expansions that they already own into some kind of a virtual currency that can be spent to pay for the expansions online (in such a way that owning all the expansions would still give you exactly enough to pay for all the expansions for a year)? That way, instead of making people pay the difference between all the expansions and the expansions that they owned on MF, they could choose to play with all the expansions but for a shorter time. As far as I can understand, it wouldn't really make a huge difference from Shuffle iT's perspective, but I think that a lot of people might appreciate it.
I think something like this is the best idea posted so far.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #220 on: April 18, 2016, 04:34:27 am »
+1

Could it be possible to turn everyone's expansions that they already own into some kind of a virtual currency that can be spent to pay for the expansions online (in such a way that owning all the expansions would still give you exactly enough to pay for all the expansions for a year)? That way, instead of making people pay the difference between all the expansions and the expansions that they owned on MF, they could choose to play with all the expansions but for a shorter time. As far as I can understand, it wouldn't really make a huge difference from Shuffle iT's perspective, but I think that a lot of people might appreciate it.

While this is a great idea, I wish they'll simply give store credit in dollars, or at least in a currency that changes 1:1 with dollars. Heaven knows how many dumb virtual currencies we've already had to endure.
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cactus

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #221 on: April 18, 2016, 04:38:28 am »
+3

You just answered your own complaints.

That's the trouble with digital content. If the company goes down, there goes all your lovely software.

Yes, that is correct. That is why I brought it up, since I am very well aware of that problem as a software developer myself. You know, what I also did? I asked to make this entire happening more consumer friendly so people won't feel cheated out of their money if they just recently paid for the services of MF. So please, don't quote me out of context.

Maybe your intent was something else, but I got a rather passive aggressive vibe from your post. If that wasn't the intent I apologize in advance.

Hey Tricksta,

I'm not trying to speak for others but I think if you are detecting a bit of angst in a few of the comments in this thread it is likely to be because of the long history of some of these issues stretching back over the space of years. As you are new there is no way you could be aware of these issues (happily for you!). I think it is a testament to just how good Dominion is as a game that we're all still here after years of frustration and care enough to get all fired up over these issues!  :( >:( ::)

At any rate welcome to Dominion and to the forums. I think there is good reason to hope that you've missed the Dark Ages of Dominion and you're hear just in time for the glorious Renaissance!

Renaissance ... Dominion Renaissance ... Hey that could be a great name for a future as-yet-undrempt-of expansion!

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #222 on: April 18, 2016, 04:49:20 am »
+1

@ -Stef- and SCSN:
Congratulations! And thank you. I am so glad that two people who really care about Dominion have stepped up and taken responsibility for giving this great game the online implemtation it deserves. Here's to a brighter Dominion future.

Side note: I am saddened by the tone of a lot of the comments in this thread. I honestly thought we were a bit better than this. IMO we should be offering support and encouragement instead of quibbling over pricing structures before they are even properly up and running. This is two of our own with long track records of positive contributions to the community.

Who would have thought the guy named Cactus is a softie.

Ha! I grew up playing Cricket in the Western Suburbs of Melbourne Australia. That won't mean much to most of you (apart from possibly @Jimmmm) but sufficient to say verbal abuse is a way of life where I come from. I leave it out when I come on to the forums though ... as most of you aren't Australian you might not understand that insulting each other is how we express affection for one another.  :o

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #223 on: April 18, 2016, 04:54:03 am »
+2

When ever I get together with my best mate for a game of Dominion I greet him with: "how ya going... you scout!"

Harsh, I know.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 04:57:28 am by cactus »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #224 on: April 18, 2016, 10:55:06 am »
+2

When ever I get together with my best mate for a game of Dominion I greet him with: "how ya going... you scout!"

Harsh, I know.

Is your mate Roadrunner? :)

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #225 on: April 18, 2016, 12:30:16 pm »
+1

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.

The thing about subscriptions is, you don't have to pay every month!  Shit hit the fan IRL?  Cancel for the next few months, bam, done.  You could request/suggest that the free year be allowed to be taken as 12 months, I suppose.

And yes, you could argue that a donation model might work.  But how many people will donate to server costs?  Would they need a yearly donation drive like BGG or Wikipedia?  How quickly would that start to hurt?  I personally would rather have a sustainable service, and $3 a month is an incredible price point.

Both groups have a point.

MakingFun's model was a bad one. But that didn't stop Rio Grand from making the deal with them. So there is some responsibility there.

The "contract" MF made with players was "buy this product and get to use it online forever". Note that the price they charged was VERY VERY high. Normal online games are nowhere close to $90 for the "full service". Also note that server costs are low and getting cheaper everyday. Most costs for an online service are one-time fixed costs. So the one time charge is less crazy than it sounds (more bad from a revenue perspective than due to cost structure)

I think people who paid $90 for a specific thing are right to be pissed off that those contracts are being thrown away and replaced with a vastly weaker product: Either less than half the functionality or only one year of service (and still less functionality).

I honestly think RG is setting themselves up for s class action lawsuit.

I think there best options at this point are:

1- Offer full refunds to original buyers
2- Offer free lifetime service to original buyers (expansions purchased)

If they were willing to take more risks they could offer the $90 as credit on the new platform (likely after getting people to sign a contract promising not to sue). But even that is a little risky.

What they are doing now counts on a court saying that all liability lies with MakingFun. It's possible but I wouldn't count on that if I was Jay.

Ed
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #226 on: April 18, 2016, 12:37:11 pm »
+1

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.

The thing about subscriptions is, you don't have to pay every month!  Shit hit the fan IRL?  Cancel for the next few months, bam, done.  You could request/suggest that the free year be allowed to be taken as 12 months, I suppose.

And yes, you could argue that a donation model might work.  But how many people will donate to server costs?  Would they need a yearly donation drive like BGG or Wikipedia?  How quickly would that start to hurt?  I personally would rather have a sustainable service, and $3 a month is an incredible price point.

Both groups have a point.

MakingFun's model was a bad one. But that didn't stop Rio Grand from making the deal with them. So there is some responsibility there.

The "contract" MF made with players was "buy this product and get to use it online forever". Note that the price they charged was VERY VERY high. Normal online games are nowhere close to $90 for the "full service". Also note that server costs are low and getting cheaper everyday. Most costs for an online service are one-time fixed costs. So the one time charge is less crazy than it sounds (more bad from a revenue perspective than due to cost structure)

I think people who paid $90 for a specific thing are right to be pissed off that those contracts are being thrown away and replaced with a vastly weaker product: Either less than half the functionality or only one year of service (and still less functionality).

I honestly think RG is setting themselves up for s class action lawsuit.

I think there best options at this point are:

1- Offer full refunds to original buyers
2- Offer free lifetime service to original buyers (expansions purchased)

If they were willing to take more risks they could offer the $90 as credit on the new platform (likely after getting people to sign a contract promising not to sue). But even that is a little risky.

What they are doing now counts on a court saying that all liability lies with MakingFun. It's possible but I wouldn't count on that if I was Jay.

Ed

Here is the Mf policy:

Virtual Currencies and Goods

The Service may include a virtual, in-game currency (“Virtual Currency”) including, but not limited to coins, cash, or points that may be purchased for actual money if you are a legal adult in your country of residence. Examples of Virtual Currency include, but are not limited to, “Ducats” in Dominion, “Tickets” in Hidden Express, “Gems” in Mage and Minions, and “Gold” in BloodRealm. The Service may also include virtual, in-game digital items (“Virtual Goods”) that may be purchased from Making Fun for actual money or for Virtual Currency. Regardless of the terminology used, Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods may never be redeemed for actual money, goods or other items of monetary value from Making Fun or any other party.

Other than a limited, personal, revocable, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable and non-exclusive license to use the Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency within the Service, you have no right or title in or to any such Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency appearing or originating within the Service, or any other attributes associated with use of the Service or stored within the Service.

Making Fun has the absolute right, but not the obligation, to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and Making Fun shall have no liability to you or any third party for the exercise of such rights.

Transfers of Virtual Currencies and Virtual Goods are strictly prohibited except where explicitly authorized within the Service. Outside of the game, you may not buy or sell any Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods for “real world” money or other items of value. Any attempt to do so is in violation of these Terms and may result in a lifetime ban from the Service and possible legal action.

You agree that all sales of Virtual Goods and Virtual Currencies are final. No refunds will be given, except in our sole and absolute discretion. All Virtual Goods and Virtual Currencies are forfeited if your Account is terminated or suspended for any reason, in Making Fun’s sole and absolute discretion, or if Making Fun discontinues providing the Service or the Game where the Virtual Goods or Virtual Currencies were obtained.


I am no lawyer, but this looks pretty clear to me. They never promised you anything of that sort, and you're not even entitled to the first year of online Dominion.
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Watno

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #227 on: April 18, 2016, 12:39:46 pm »
+2

Well, Goko aquired a license for Online Dominion for a limited amount of time. If Goko/MF claimed their product would eb available for ever, there's no way you can blame RGG for that.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #228 on: April 18, 2016, 12:54:50 pm »
0

I am 99.9% certain the agreement lies with MF and Goko. So, if you want to sue someone, sue either of them. As it stands, I'm pretty sure things like this have happened in the past. Essentially, when we bought expansions, we did so with an agreement with MF or Goko. Now, that they have lost the license, the agreement is no longer valid.

Now, I do believe something should be done to compensate those who paid $90. There are likely people who never read any forums of any kind and will purchase blindly. If I were in their shoes, I would feel very stupid after finding out my purchase is no longer valid. As it is, I feel Stef and Co. are doing the best they can. But, I would maybe try and see how recent a purchase was, and go from there. I'm not sure what they can do. But, if I say, I buy Dominion Online in December and then come January, is it fair that my purchase is only good until the end of 2017?

I wish I had an easy solution for this tricky situation. I know a lot of people will be upset, and it's unfortunate.
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Kirian

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #229 on: April 18, 2016, 01:00:25 pm »
+6

I honestly think RG is setting themselves up for s class action lawsuit.

....

What they are doing now counts on a court saying that all liability lies with MakingFun. It's possible but I wouldn't count on that if I was Jay.

Are you... serious?  Like, actually serious?  There aren't enough people to form a large class, there isn't a lawyer in the country who would take a class action suit with a maximum payout under a million dollars, and MF's terms, as noted by drsteelhammer, are pretty clear that nothing of the sort was promised, and any lawyer will laugh in your face if even if they were willing to take a very small class action to court.

Sure, I'm not actually a lawyer, but I bet theory will back me up on this assessment of how CA suits work...
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #230 on: April 18, 2016, 01:05:54 pm »
+8

Seriously though, the entitlement mentality I'm seeing from (very few) people in this thread makes me completely understand why Donald and Jay were leery of ever doing this at all.  Get a grip, guys.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #231 on: April 18, 2016, 01:15:15 pm »
0

Fun fact: not all users agreements, even if you agree to them, are legal. :)

I believe in the concept of sunk costs. Bygones
are bygones. I look forward to thz product. :)
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #232 on: April 18, 2016, 01:48:59 pm »
+1

There could be an achievement for having owned expansions previously if the achievement system gets implemented. It wouldn't really help, but it would be pretty cool.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #233 on: April 18, 2016, 01:49:18 pm »
+1

I honestly think RGG is setting themselves up for a class action lawsuit.

No, they're not! This is getting completely ludicrous.

I just can't wait to start hearing arguments in this thread about laws and fine print from people who know nothing about laws and fine print.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #234 on: April 18, 2016, 01:58:47 pm »
+4

There could be an achievement for having owned expansions previously if the achievement system gets implemented. It wouldn't really help, but it would be pretty cool.

Like the achievements that are on my WOW account for doing things before they were updated, that you can't actually achieve any more.  Achievement Unlocked:  I survived the Goko/MF era...
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #235 on: April 18, 2016, 02:16:18 pm »
+3

There could be an achievement for having owned expansions previously if the achievement system gets implemented. It wouldn't really help, but it would be pretty cool.

Like the achievements that are on my WOW account for doing things before they were updated, that you can't actually achieve any more.  Achievement Unlocked:  I survived the Goko/MF era...

Achievement Unlocked: Isotropic is going down? - played 100 or more games on isotropic
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #236 on: April 18, 2016, 02:17:48 pm »
+5

Achievement Unlocked: Participate in a class-action law suit.
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Kirian

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #237 on: April 18, 2016, 02:36:34 pm »
+3

There could be an achievement for having owned expansions previously if the achievement system gets implemented. It wouldn't really help, but it would be pretty cool.

Like the achievements that are on my WOW account for doing things before they were updated, that you can't actually achieve any more.  Achievement Unlocked:  I survived the Goko/MF era...

Achievement Unlocked: Isotropic is going down? - played 100 or more games on isotropic

Wait, what?  Isotropic is going down??!!
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Seprix

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #238 on: April 18, 2016, 04:38:25 pm »
0

I think I'll have my sets transferred to Offline when that option comes on, but of course I'll have to look at what the offline thing has on it.

Robz888

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #239 on: April 18, 2016, 06:12:55 pm »
+9

Coming to this thread late, but a hearty congratulations to Stef and SCSN! I am overjoyed by this news. I just recently started playing a good amount of online Dominion again, and it's nice to know online Dominion has a future. In fact, the future already looks brighter than it has in years.
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TadyBoy

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #240 on: April 18, 2016, 06:51:26 pm »
0

I am very concern about the price structure propose from 2017 (month payment). I cannot foresee nothing good about that; and as i can see i am not the only one.

I do understand that some people are willing to pay a game before even knowing the game; for others this is not true. I believe lots of Dominion players start as guests, then move to base players, make an account in the forum as they start climbing in the ranking, start playing league games, champioships,etc, then move to enhance the community=making articles, do streaming, helping maintain a small but ongoing Dominion community. Between those steps players bye expansions which keep the wheel spinning.
At this moment instead of trying to make newer players approach the game and existing ones consume products you are telling players: "if you want to play pay, otherwise leave".
I found difficult to understand the approach you had taken to make Dominion profitable for merely two persons. Its hard not to ask if selling hats (alt art, badges, screens, card borders, sounds), getting money from advertisements, money from tournaments you could organize among others was not enough to keep the business viable (dont forget the money from selling expansions). Empire would be only yours to sell ($).

I dont want to be read as someone who is crying over something that is settle, but like a potential client who was about to get every expansions and that is told that product is no longer available.
I hope i am wrong and the community grows. I love the game, but i am not willing to pay a month fee. Some months i just play tournament games....is 3$ reasonable to play only one season league? I dont know, but i rather had every card to play wherever i want.

For last i want to mention something no one has: the effect of your price structure to MF. With this claim you had buried MF possibilities of making any profit, no one is going to bye expansions late 2016..... or maybe now. Not only you have honored players purchases but you have heavily affect MF incomes. From day to night i feel pity for MF, they where inefficient but i think they dont deserve this as they have improve and they have given us something you are not willing to from 2017.

Capting new player should be the main issue of every Dominion implementations onwards; hope my post remember Stef and SCSN that.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #241 on: April 18, 2016, 06:58:56 pm »
+3

First things first: Everyone gets 1-YEAR OF SERVICE FOR FREE, assuming you already bought the expansions. That means if people don't like the product, they are free to not renew their subscription in January 2018. I am also confident they will make a free-to-play version as Donald X. has already stated. My guess is that the Base Game will continue to be free, or they will offer a free trial of X-games per month or something.

Second, I do feel some pity for MF. And, yes, this announcement I am sure will have a heavy impact on their sales and revenue streams. With that said, their contract was only good until the end of this year. It is better for the consumer to know now what is on the table, so that the customer can make purchases wisely. With that said, I will still buy Adventures off of MF. I think it will be around somewhere of $15. I'm willing to pay that to use it for the next few months before we get the new client. Yes, it sucks to be them. But, I'm sure they knew this announcement was coming sooner or later.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #242 on: April 18, 2016, 07:17:56 pm »
0

At this moment instead of trying to make newer players approach the game and existing ones consume products you are telling players: "if you want to play pay, otherwise leave".

See here:

For sure we understand that there has to be a way to try the system for free. For offline play there will be levels you can try, like a campaign. I'm not sure what we do for online play but obv. we have to have some way to try it for free.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #243 on: April 18, 2016, 07:33:23 pm »
+5

My suggestions for free online would be: base set + a set of 'standard' kingdoms (the recommended one from zxpansions?) that people can play.

Because you'll get tired of them, but it will leave you wanting more.
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errational

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #244 on: April 19, 2016, 03:30:11 am »
0

This might actually get me to start playing Dominion again (and I doubt I'm the only one).
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Accatitippi

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #245 on: April 19, 2016, 05:35:16 am »
+1

My suggestions for free online would be: base set + a set of 'standard' kingdoms (the recommended one from zxpansions?) that people can play.

Because you'll get tired of them, but it will leave you wanting more.

While I like your idea, I think I'd prefer free players to have base + about 10 other cards that change every week. That way you can still play a good amount and variety of free games without the "demo" feeling, if you don't play many games per week.
Keeping a free and satisfied player base is good, because if they ever get tired, you'll lose a potential customer. They shouldn't get tired, they should just want more. :)
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Awaclus

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #246 on: April 19, 2016, 05:44:06 am »
+2

My suggestions for free online would be: base set + a set of 'standard' kingdoms (the recommended one from zxpansions?) that people can play.

Because you'll get tired of them, but it will leave you wanting more.

While I like your idea, I think I'd prefer free players to have base + about 10 other cards that change every week. That way you can still play a good amount and variety of free games without the "demo" feeling, if you don't play many games per week.
Keeping a free and satisfied player base is good, because if they ever get tired, you'll lose a potential customer. They shouldn't get tired, they should just want more. :)

10 is probably too much (a lot of players might not want to learn 10 new cards every week, and 10 cards already add enough variety that it would lead to fewer people actually buying the expansions). 1-3 would be fine.
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faust

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #247 on: April 19, 2016, 05:50:14 am »
+2

For last i want to mention something no one has: the effect of your price structure to MF. With this claim you had buried MF possibilities of making any profit, no one is going to bye expansions late 2016..... or maybe now. Not only you have honored players purchases but you have heavily affect MF incomes. From day to night i feel pity for MF, they where inefficient but i think they dont deserve this as they have improve and they have given us something you are not willing to from 2017.

Stef and SCSN are not running a charity for Making Fun. If you feel sorry for them, you can go ahead and start a movement that supports Making Fun by having people create alt accounts and buying all expansions again. I don't see how it's Stef's and SCSN's job to provide for Making Fun any more than it is yours.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #248 on: April 19, 2016, 06:19:52 am »
+3

For last i want to mention something no one has: the effect of your price structure to MF. With this claim you had buried MF possibilities of making any profit, no one is going to bye expansions late 2016..... or maybe now. Not only you have honored players purchases but you have heavily affect MF incomes. From day to night i feel pity for MF, they where inefficient but i think they dont deserve this as they have improve and they have given us something you are not willing to from 2017.

I'm not a huge fan of S&S's pricing system, like I mentioned before, but really, don't feel sorry for Making Fun. They failed to do their job well enough, so the contract was discontinued and now they will lose money because of it. If you have a start-up but turn out not to be a great businessman, you will lose a lot of money, and if you fail at your job, you get fired. That's just the way the world works.

Also, like Beyond Awesome says, if they ever finally release Adventures they will make a bit of cash again. I'll also buy Adventures on MF when I get the chance.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 06:20:58 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #249 on: April 19, 2016, 03:27:47 pm »
0

These clients will run on Windows, Mac and Linux, or any other platform that supports running Java.

Am I misinterpreting this or will the Mac client be Java-based?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #250 on: April 19, 2016, 03:31:00 pm »
0

These clients will run on Windows, Mac and Linux, or any other platform that supports running Java.

Am I misinterpreting this or will the Mac client be Java-based?

Looks like it.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #251 on: April 19, 2016, 03:38:22 pm »
+2

These clients will run on Windows, Mac and Linux, or any other platform that supports running Java.

Am I misinterpreting this or will the Mac client be Java-based?

Looks like it.

I wasn't sure if that statement meant it would run natively on those named platforms and alternatively on anything running Java. Based on my experiences, running a Java-based app on OSX doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.
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