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Author Topic: Negative vanilla boni  (Read 2371 times)

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tristan

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Negative vanilla boni
« on: April 12, 2016, 03:32:13 am »
+1

In this thread the idea of negative vanilla boni came up. We already have discard on many cards and I use a card with negative coins. Discard doesn't force you to discard cards which you do not have whereas negative coins can lead to temporarily negative coins (they can increase due to other Action/Treasure cards but after having used all Treasure cards in your Buy phase the minimum amount of Coins is zero).
Negative Actions and Buys should work differently though IMO. You can only play these cards if you actually have the Action or Buy. So for example a negative Action card requires you to play a Village before.

Here are some quick ideas:

??
Types: Action
Cost: $5
-1 Action
+4$
+1 Buy


Seems like a BM card but as you need a Village it is probably more of an engine card.


??
Types: Action
Cost: $5
-1 Buy
Gain a card costing up to 5$.


Obviously this has to be compared to Altar and could be too weak. On the other hand at a price of 4$ it could be too strong and an opening autobuy.


??
Types: Action
Cost: 2P
Transform any number of Actions, Coins and Buys into any number of Actions, Coins and Buys.


The wording can be changed. Here the implicit rule is that you cannot get negative Coins, otherwise the card would obviously be totally broken.
I have no idea about the right price. Could be OK for just P. Potion should appear for thematic reasons as this seems like a very Alchemy-ish card and mechanically Potion makes it more difficult to get the card. This is the only cheap Potion card (which I know) that you do not want immediately.

One can play around with this via making it nonterminal or, if the card is too powerful, via only allowing the transformation of one vanilla bonus into another instead of pooling all thre types together and then redistributing them.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2016, 04:11:53 am »
0

1st card :
"a negative Action card requires you to play a Village before" there are several issues here :
-rules : what if you have to play the Action, due to Golem or Herald ?
-usefulness : what if there are no villages around ?
I think players should be temporarly allowed to go below 0 actions and buys... and even so it makes them quite terrible since they can easily go really weak depending on the other available cards, or boring.
For the 2nd card, it's pretty much the same, and I'm not that sure it would be an auto-buy for $4 as unlike Feast it would be a dead card as the game goes on, plus if you buy it in opening, then you wouldn't be able to buy other cards the turn you play them.

3rd card is much more interesting and deserves examination, though it may never be bought. I don't really see what broken combos could happen here as it doesn't produce anything by itself and therefore can't be throned/kinged efficently. However, it is still weak : changing $2 into 2 actions, or tons of actions into $ or buy is... not really attracting. Maybe it should have a "+1 card +1 action" (and therefore there would be some throne/king bonus) to be balanced so it will at least never be a dead card.
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faust

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2016, 04:21:55 am »
0

-rules : what if you have to play the Action, due to Golem or Herald ?

Herald isn't really a problem, since you will always have an action available after playing Herald. Golem doesn't really work though. Also Throne Room with no other action in hand.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2016, 04:22:54 am »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

tristan

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2016, 04:28:17 am »
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1st card :
"a negative Action card requires you to play a Village before" there are several issues here :
-rules : what if you have to play the Action, due to Golem or Herald ?
-usefulness : what if there are no villages around ?
I think players should be temporarly allowed to go below 0 actions and buys... and even so it makes them quite terrible since they can easily go really weak depending on the other available cards, or boring.
I'd say that if you do not have an Action to spend and hit the card with Golem it simply does nothing as you do not meet its "pay" requirement.

Negative actions are always permanent and not temporary as you cannot, ignoring stuff like Golem, Herald and Throne Room (variants), play another action cards afterwards.
If you allow negative actions or buys there is no penalty and the cards are not balanced anymore. For example the -1 Action card would become an overpowered BM card.
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pedroluchini

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2016, 05:16:29 am »
+1

You could word it like this: "Pay an Action. If you do, ..." The rules could clarify that you can only pay an Action if you have 1 or more.

That said, the card should come with some sort of Village-type effect built in, otherwise it's completely useless in the absence of other Villages.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2016, 05:34:06 am »
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You could word it like this: "Pay an Action. If you do, ..." The rules could clarify that you can only pay an Action if you have 1 or more.

That said, the card should come with some sort of Village-type effect built in, otherwise it's completely useless in the absence of other Villages.

I already suggested so once and someone reminded me that it would be more like "choose one, +1 action or ..." ; in other words, nothing great but something that almost doesn't exist yet in Dominion (choosing between +1 action and something else) . So it deserves to be explored.


Negative actions are always permanent and not temporary ...
Yes,yes, that's not what I meant by "temporary"... I meant "for this card".

And then, what do you guys think about the card that transforms actions/buy/coins ?
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Ankenaut

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2016, 09:26:27 am »
0

I have several cards like this. I made some shelters with negative stuff, and I have an attack that passes out action cards with negatives. If people are interested, I'll post them.

However, my understanding was that negative action only kills a village if you want to play stuff after it. That is, you could play it terminally and just end the action phase with a negative number of actions.
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Ankenaut

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2016, 09:31:49 am »
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Here's how one of my Shelters with -1 Action handles the "I want this to require you to play a village first" issue.

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Marcory

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2016, 10:42:30 am »
0

I like the second card, but "-1 Buy" is probably handled better as 'While this is in play, you can't buy cards.' 

Maybe something like this?

Transform Action $5

Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that is a different type than the trashed card and costs up to $3 more than it.
---------
While this is in play, you can't buy any cards.


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Jack Rudd

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2016, 10:48:02 am »
0

Transform Action $5

Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that is a different type than the trashed card and costs up to $3 more than it.
---------
While this is in play, you can't buy any cards.
Might be overpowered with Procession. Needs playtesting.
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tristan

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2016, 11:12:44 am »
0

I like the second card, but "-1 Buy" is probably handled better as 'While this is in play, you can't buy cards.' 

Maybe something like this?

Transform Action $5

Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that is a different type than the trashed card and costs up to $3 more than it.
---------
While this is in play, you can't buy any cards.
This is definitely a good idea but I like to point out that this is weaker than -1 Buy as you can compensate the latter via any card that provides an extra buy.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2016, 12:50:02 pm »
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I already suggested so once and someone reminded me that it would be more like "choose one, +1 action or ..." ; in other words, nothing great but something that almost doesn't exist yet in Dominion (choosing between +1 action and something else) . So it deserves to be explored.

To me this suggests that there might be an Action equivalent to Overpay.  Something like:

+2 Cards
You may spend another action. If you do, +3 Cards.

To get around the Problem of Villages with cards like this, it might be good to add an alternative trigger.  Something like:

+2 Cards
You may discard a Duchy from your hand, or spend another action. If you do, +3 Cards.
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Marcory

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2016, 03:16:13 pm »
0

I already suggested so once and someone reminded me that it would be more like "choose one, +1 action or ..." ; in other words, nothing great but something that almost doesn't exist yet in Dominion (choosing between +1 action and something else) . So it deserves to be explored.

To me this suggests that there might be an Action equivalent to Overpay.  Something like:

+2 Cards
You may spend another action. If you do, +3 Cards.

To get around the Problem of Villages with cards like this, it might be good to add an alternative trigger.  Something like:

+2 Cards
You may discard a Duchy from your hand, or spend another action. If you do, +3 Cards.

"Another" action implies that you spent one to play this card. But this need not be the case, with Herald, Golem, Throne Rooms (especially Base Throne Room, which would force you to play this if you did TR-TR-Smithy-THIS), Royal Carriage, Prince, etc.

But overall I think that it's better to have a positive concept (if you do X, +1 Action) than a negative one, to deal with the effects of forced plays, and the fact that 'spend an action' is not a term used on any published card.
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tristan

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Re: Negative vanilla boni
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2016, 02:11:49 am »
+1

'spend an action' is not a term used on any published card.
So what? Does DXV limit himself to the current lingo when he designs new cards?

"Spend another action" is indeed not perfect but "spend an action" is crystal clear wording and far better than my "-1 Action" text. At the moment you play the card you can only spend an action if you have it. If you do not have it the effect is not triggered. Pretty straightforward.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 02:18:55 am by tristan »
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