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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine  (Read 5814 times)

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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2019, 02:30:17 pm »
0

They're not supposed to be used together in one game, so there's no argument that the worse card would be useless in a game with both.

There's no rule preventing you from continuing to use the 1E cards. They don't exist online anymore, but I (and I'm sure I'm not alone on this) still own the physical copies, and use them sometimes (except Saboteur, which I don't use for other reasons).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2019, 03:50:56 pm »
+6

I like Mine.

I think giving mine +1 action would be a better way of making it a decent albeit not great card.  As is it really kind of sucks.

We already went down that rabbit hole with Rebuild let's not do that kind of shit willy nilly again

I respectfully disagree. The problem with Rebuild is that it allows you to effectively skip building your deck up. Once you can get to $5, you're good. Pageant once let you convert any number of $ into Coffers, and it had a similar issue. After getting a Silver or two, it was faster to just save your $ every turn and buy only Provinces.

I feel pretty safe in saying that non-terminal Mine wouldn't have this issue. I mean the entire function of Mine is to build up your deck. And to be clear, by "build up your deck", I mean build up what it can do. Rebuild doesn't build up what your deck can do.
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Donald X.

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2019, 04:18:14 pm »
+1

Why couldn't a second edition card be strictly better than a replaced one? They're not supposed to be used together in one game, so there's no argument that the worse card would be useless in a game with both.
Absolutely the only problem with strictly better cards is that some people hate them - hate that they exist. I don't want to generate that hate and don't need to.

I don't know how much those people would have hated e.g. an Adventurer replacement that's strictly better than Adventurer, given that the card was officially being retired. There was no need to risk it and I didn't.
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Holger

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2019, 05:32:10 am »
+1

They're not supposed to be used together in one game, so there's no argument that the worse card would be useless in a game with both.

There's no rule preventing you from continuing to use the 1E cards. They don't exist online anymore, but I (and I'm sure I'm not alone on this) still own the physical copies, and use them sometimes (except Saboteur, which I don't use for other reasons).

Of course you can continue using them (I also do for some of then, as I don't own the 2E cards), but they're not meant to be used TOGETHER with the replacement cards, and it would be absurd to complain about a replacement being better than the original, since that's the whole point of replacing those duds.
(Whether you replace them with new cards that are almost always better or with strictly better/cheaper versions of the originals is more a matter of taste for me - personally, I'd prefer "fixing  " the duds over scrapping them altogether...)
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Seprix

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2019, 10:50:35 am »
0

I like Mine.

I think giving mine +1 action would be a better way of making it a decent albeit not great card.  As is it really kind of sucks.

We already went down that rabbit hole with Rebuild let's not do that kind of shit willy nilly again

No +Action would make Rebuild completely unplayable.

...why am I defending rebuild again...?
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Awaclus

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2019, 11:06:56 am »
0

No +Action would make Rebuild completely unplayable.

Well, Rebuild isn't super strong as it is.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2019, 11:33:58 am »
0

They're not supposed to be used together in one game, so there's no argument that the worse card would be useless in a game with both.

There's no rule preventing you from continuing to use the 1E cards. They don't exist online anymore, but I (and I'm sure I'm not alone on this) still own the physical copies, and use them sometimes (except Saboteur, which I don't use for other reasons).

Of course you can continue using them (I also do for some of then, as I don't own the 2E cards), but they're not meant to be used TOGETHER with the replacement cards, and it would be absurd to complain about a replacement being better than the original, since that's the whole point of replacing those duds.
(Whether you replace them with new cards that are almost always better or with strictly better/cheaper versions of the originals is more a matter of taste for me - personally, I'd prefer "fixing  " the duds over scrapping them altogether...)

I personally wouldn't complain about a replacement being strictly better than the original, and in that case I probably would stop using the original and switch to the replacement. Mill/Great Hall doesn't count because Great Hall costs less, so I still use Great Hall. But, my point is that because I still use the original cards, and might even use them in the same game as the replacements, and it is generally a good assumption that people exist who are more extreme than me, that means that there are probably people who would complain a lot.
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2019, 12:14:57 pm »
0

I like Mine.

I think giving mine +1 action would be a better way of making it a decent albeit not great card.  As is it really kind of sucks.

We already went down that rabbit hole with Rebuild let's not do that kind of shit willy nilly again

No +Action would make Rebuild completely unplayable.

...why am I defending rebuild again...?

Hard disagree.  I've played many games where I go Rebuild/BM, and maybe once if at all each game do I play multiple Rebuilds in a turn.
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Holger

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2019, 03:36:21 pm »
0

I like Mine.

I think giving mine +1 action would be a better way of making it a decent albeit not great card.  As is it really kind of sucks.

We already went down that rabbit hole with Rebuild let's not do that kind of shit willy nilly again

No +Action would make Rebuild completely unplayable.

...why am I defending rebuild again...?

Hard disagree.  I've played many games where I go Rebuild/BM, and maybe once if at all each game do I play multiple Rebuilds in a turn.

That once (or twice...) per game matters, together with the ability to add terminal support cards. Rebuild without +1 Action is hardly better than Smithy-BM, as I simulated years ago:

TerminalRebuild loses to the strongest BM cards: Wharf, Goons, GhostShip, DoubleJack, all Cursers.

It essentially ties with Monument (51:49), Envoy (48.5:51.5), Smithy (52:48) and Courtyard (50:50), and wins against all other implemented one-card strategies (Militia, Masq., HP, Amb., Library, ...).

So BM-TerminalRebuild is about as strong as standard Smithy-BM, i.e. far from overpowered, but occasionally useful on BM boards.
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JW

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2019, 07:34:33 pm »
+1

Hard disagree.  I've played many games where I go Rebuild/BM, and maybe once if at all each game do I play multiple Rebuilds in a turn.

In non-mirror situations with Rebuild, you want to buy more Rebuilds than in mirrors. Rebuild would be weaker against engines if you never buy more than, say, 2 Rebuilds. In Wandering Winder's great Rebuild video series, I recall that he almost always buys at least three Rebuilds.

First video here:
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popsofctown

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2019, 03:40:54 am »
0

I think what might be counterintuitive about this is how different a terminal collision in a Rebuild deck is than in an engine deck, and since these days we spend 90% of the time playing engines that's the kind of 5$ + 5$ collision you're gonna be thinking about.  Colliding 2 5$ terminals is really bad in any deck.  But like.  In a Village-Journeyman deck or what have you, if you collide your Journeyman, you have something that should have been a 5$ turn and messes up and becomes a 3$ turn.  So you buy Village when you would have rather bought Journeyman.  It's bad.  But it's a deck where you are trying to get pair Villages and Journeymans with eachother, that's the game, and a Village is still helpful.  Say you have 4 Villages and 2 Journeyman at this point.  It'd definitely be better to get a Journeyman.  But having 5 villages instead of 4 still increases the chance you draw a village and a journeyman together, even if it doesn't do so quite as effectively as an additional Journeyman would. 
Like in actuality you often have this happen with 4 journeyman 1 village because you've seen this movie before and you know how this works.  You collide your journeymans, can only buy a village, and it's kind of a blessing in disguise.
The consequence of colliding terminals in a terminal rebuild deck is totally different.  Do not pass go do not collect 200$.  The effect is 100% of the time "take 3 VP chips and throw them into the motherRatsing Garbage".  It's always -3 VP, every time.  It is always, Witch yourself 3 times, minues the actual clogging amount.   But still.  This is brutal.  This is so much more brutal than "I'd rather play a rigged poker deck with 6 Queens and 4 Jacks instead of a rigged poker deck with 5 Queens and 5 Jacks", which is what the engine scenario was like.  This is like your wife passes buy the table and picks up half your chips and heads to the cocktail bar to buy drinks with them.  So it makes lots of sense that it would fall off very rapidly.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2019, 10:10:20 pm »
0

Probably the best approach would be a significantly better card at a slightly higher cost (eg Chancellor -> Scavenger).

Cantrip Mine for $6?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2019, 12:09:16 pm »
+4

Probably the best approach would be a significantly better card at a slightly higher cost (eg Chancellor -> Scavenger).

Cantrip Mine for $6?

I believe one Empires outtake was "You may trash a Treasure from your hand, to gain a Treasure to your hand." That was pretty fun. I think it cost 8 Debt which didn't work out (you always wanted it immediately), but it could maybe cost $6 or $7 and be fine.
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Holger

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2019, 06:58:34 am »
0

Probably the best approach would be a significantly better card at a slightly higher cost (eg Chancellor -> Scavenger).

Cantrip Mine for $6?

I believe one Empires outtake was "You may trash a Treasure from your hand, to gain a Treasure to your hand." That was pretty fun. I think it cost 8 Debt which didn't work out (you always wanted it immediately), but it could maybe cost $6 or $7 and be fine.

That sounds nice, though it may be overpowered in Platinum games...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 07:09:07 am by Holger »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2019, 04:16:09 pm »
+1

Probably the best approach would be a significantly better card at a slightly higher cost (eg Chancellor -> Scavenger).

Cantrip Mine for $6?

I believe one Empires outtake was "You may trash a Treasure from your hand, to gain a Treasure to your hand." That was pretty fun. I think it cost 8 Debt which didn't work out (you always wanted it immediately), but it could maybe cost $6 or $7 and be fine.

That sounds nice, though it may be overpowered in Platinum games...

I think the original version was actually "Mine 3 times", which could turn Copper into Platinum, but without Platinum it could e.g. turn two Coppers into a Silver and a Gold. I want to say changing it to "Trash a Treasure from your hand to gain a Treasure to your hand" was my idea, but I could be wrong and anyway it didn't survive.
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