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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine  (Read 5383 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2018, 04:47:19 pm »
0

Is Mine still regarded as almost always ignorable in 2018?  And if so, should it have been updated in 2nd Edition?

Mine is really nice not entirely useless with Platinums and boards where there's no Copper trashing but everything else and reason to build up

FTFY
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William Howard Taft

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2018, 06:57:23 pm »
0

If there's no other trashing and Throne Room is on the board I might pick one up. Turning two Coppers into two Silvers is nice, or turning one Copper into a Gold.

Turning Silvers into Idols is pretty nifty too. Or at least it was in the Recommended Kingdom I played it in when I first picked up Nocturne.
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crj

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2018, 11:00:47 pm »
0

Looking at recent expansions, it feels like Crown, Rocks and Heirlooms might interact interestingly with Mine.

Probably not earth-shatteringly, just interestingly.
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Holunder9

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2018, 04:04:07 am »
+1

Although Mine at $4 is arguably a little bit better than Taxman it should nonetheless have been changed to cost $4 for the second edition.
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crj

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2018, 09:16:14 am »
+1

I'm guessing it got playtested at $4, many moons ago?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2018, 11:43:56 am »
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I'm guessing it got playtested at $4, many moons ago?

I doubt it.
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crj

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2018, 11:58:47 am »
0

I doubt it.
Really? Gosh. I thought Donald X. established the principle of letting every card be as cheap as possible very early in development and basically everything got tried at a lower cost at least once.
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Minotaur

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2018, 12:47:23 pm »
0

I kind of like +1 Action instead of having it cost $4.  Considering everything else you could get for $5, would that be all that strong?  Probably not?  It would make Explorer look pretty bad, I guess.
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Seprix

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2018, 01:27:01 pm »
0

I kind of like +1 Action instead of having it cost $4.  Considering everything else you could get for $5, would that be all that strong?  Probably not?  It would make Explorer look pretty bad, I guess.

Explorer is still way better in Donate Money
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LastFootnote

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2018, 01:45:23 pm »
+2

It would be weird for some Dominion sets to have a Mine that cost $4 and one that had one costing $5. And so they'd have to be two different(ly named) cards. And one card cannot be strictly better than another card, even when one is in a previous edition. I think that really sucks (Woodcutter's Ghost still hangs over us; can't make Woodcutter-with-a-bonus for $3), but that's the way it was decided. So, a $4 Mine or a Mine with +1 Action was just never going to happen in the official second edition.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 03:29:23 pm by LastFootnote »
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Holunder9

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2018, 02:54:52 pm »
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It would be weird for some Dominion sets to have a Mine that cost $4 and one that had one costing $5. And so they'd have to be two different(ly named) cards. And one card cannot be strictly better than another card, even when one is in a previous edition. I think that really sucks (Woodcutter's Ghost still hangs over us; can't make Woodcutter-with-a-bonus for $3), but that's the way it was decided. So, a $4 Mine or a Mine with +1 Action was just never going to happen in the official second edition.
I think that changing Woodcutter or Village, cards who are the basis for a whole family of cards, is indeed not feasible. But a fairly unique card like Mine can be changed (OK, Taxman is similar so a second version of Mine would have to be tested alongside Taxman) in principle.
But then again it depends on whether you want to market Dominion more as a family game where this is dubious (then again, casual gamers don't buy a second version of a game they already have so they wouldn't notice changes anyway) or as a player's game where this is normal. Happens all the time with LCGs and some other deckbuilders also update cards whose evaluation has changed with a new printing or a new epansion.

But it is a matter of design philosophy and it also has its advantages; instead of simply a buffed Scout we now got a totally new card.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 02:57:19 pm by Holunder9 »
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Donald X.

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2018, 06:14:57 pm »
+6

I doubt it.
Really? Gosh. I thought Donald X. established the principle of letting every card be as cheap as possible very early in development and basically everything got tried at a lower cost at least once.
Another early principle was to not change cards that were working fine. For early cards in general, I simply didn't try alternate versions; the card had to be clearly weak or strong or bad in whatever way for me to change it. We bought Mine; it was always $5. The one thing that changed about it was phrasing it as "costing up to $3 more" rather than "Copper for Silver or Silver for Gold," so as to include expansion Treasures.

Another early principle was to not be so clear as to how good cards were. Mine seemed better then.

There were enough cards to want to replace in the main set that I didn't get to Mine. And it certainly does fine work for new players.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2018, 10:38:01 pm »
0

I doubt it.
Really? Gosh. I thought Donald X. established the principle of letting every card be as cheap as possible very early in development and basically everything got tried at a lower cost at least once.

I think that principle was developed a few expansions in. I seem to recall him saying that Adventurer was $6 because it started at that price and people were willing to buy it.
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Minotaur

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2018, 02:56:50 pm »
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I'm not sure I agree with leaving it alone, but I do appreciate the problems with updating, and I can see where other cases were clearly more urgent.  If it were a fully digital game where you could just patch everything, maybe I would be more against leaving it where it is now.

Still, it's niche-at-best and needs Platinum or a cool alternate treasure gimmick to justify it, or a complete lack of trashing and sifting alternatives at the very least.

It's sort of a n00b trap, but it's not quite bad enough to actually be a legitimate n00b trap in the sense of Scout+Action-VP decks.

I have pretty mixed feelings about Mine, and it's sad, because I always wanted to like Mine.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2018, 02:33:13 am »
0

Mine can be good in games where you get benefit for trashing like Tomb & now Priest, At least make it worth buying, because other than colonies and tomb games I really rarely get mine's unless there are actions and draw galore.

Oh it can also be good in wall by recycling rather than amassing treasure.  I used it in one bandit fort game to build up to golds and then mine them back to coppers at the end.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 02:41:00 am by Honkeyfresh »
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2018, 05:50:49 pm »
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Mine/chapel is a farily OK opening actually. It allows for some super aggresive thinning, while generating a decent amount of gold rather quickly. Not amazing by any means, as they can collide.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2018, 09:57:52 am »
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The picture just shows how worthless it is. Three miners in the whole mine (which is small, you can see the beginning of it) and only one of them is actually mining. The other two are pushing a cart. Seriously, one of those guys is going to get his feet run over.

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NoMoreFun

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2018, 08:19:39 pm »
+1

It would be weird for some Dominion sets to have a Mine that cost $4 and one that had one costing $5. And so they'd have to be two different(ly named) cards. And one card cannot be strictly better than another card, even when one is in a previous edition. I think that really sucks (Woodcutter's Ghost still hangs over us; can't make Woodcutter-with-a-bonus for $3), but that's the way it was decided. So, a $4 Mine or a Mine with +1 Action was just never going to happen in the official second edition.

You could design a card that's better than Mine but interacts with it in an interesting way so Mine is still relevant in Kingdoms with both Mine and the new card.

Or you could do a card that is overwhelmingly better than Mine and costs $6 (similar to Chancellor -> Scavenger) or a card that's better but overspecified (Thief -> Noble brigand). Or do it as a treasure which leaves Mine available for Action combos (Candlestick Maker -> Ducat)
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2018, 12:57:23 am »
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I think giving mine +1 action would be a better way of making it a decent albeit not great card.  As is it really kind of sucks.
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exek

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2019, 03:15:06 am »
+1

i like this card even though its a bit hard to unerstand what it does because it makes your treasury card better FOREVER. One of my Favorite cards in game..
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2019, 07:03:32 am »
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i like this card even though its a bit hard to unerstand what it does because it makes your treasury card better FOREVER. One of my Favorite cards in game..
Minor nit: treasure, not treasury. (Treasury is a different card, and it is not a treasure.)

Yes, it makes your treasure cards better, but... very, very slowly. It suffers from the same problem a lot of treasure-based cards have: in order for it to be useful, you need treasure cards in your deck, but having treasure cards in your deck makes it harder to actually draw the Mine.
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DG

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2019, 09:09:32 am »
+1

In terms of raw income in a basic deck, you are looking to play the mine and its associated treasures 4 times to have generated more income than a silver (bought instead of a mine). This is too slow for a basic deck. The mine is useful if you want to add income to a deck without adding many extra cards or using any more buys. The mine can also have a more subtle purpose, such as changing 0 cost cards into 3 cost cards.
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2019, 11:35:07 am »
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I like Mine.

I think giving mine +1 action would be a better way of making it a decent albeit not great card.  As is it really kind of sucks.

We already went down that rabbit hole with Rebuild let's not do that kind of shit willy nilly again
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Holger

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2019, 01:48:52 pm »
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It would be weird for some Dominion sets to have a Mine that cost $4 and one that had one costing $5. And so they'd have to be two different(ly named) cards. And one card cannot be strictly better than another card, even when one is in a previous edition. I think that really sucks (Woodcutter's Ghost still hangs over us; can't make Woodcutter-with-a-bonus for $3), but that's the way it was decided. So, a $4 Mine or a Mine with +1 Action was just never going to happen in the official second edition.

Why couldn't a second edition card be strictly better than a replaced one? They're not supposed to be used together in one game, so there's no argument that the worse card would be useless in a game with both.

And you could always call the new card "New Mine" or something like that to avoid confusion...
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 02:02:40 pm by Holger »
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Holger

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Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Mine
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2019, 02:01:12 pm »
0

I doubt it.
Really? Gosh. I thought Donald X. established the principle of letting every card be as cheap as possible very early in development and basically everything got tried at a lower cost at least once.

I think half of the first edition base set's actions could have been cheaper without making them overpowered. All of the replaced cards, Mine, Bureaucrat, Workshop, ...
I think LFN argued in an older thread that Adventurer would still not be strong if it cost $2...
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