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Author Topic: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards  (Read 12538 times)

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Gubump

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2016, 03:38:46 pm »
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Updated comments:

Siege: As stated by AdrianHealey, completely blocking Events does seem pretty harsh. How about giving out Curses when opponents buy Events, a la Swamp Hag? Also, why does it now require the Event to cost at least $2? It didn't do that before.

Escort: It still doesn't hold opponents accountable.

Fortified Village: Nothing new to say about it, since it hasn't been changed.

Lagoon: Much better.

Market Day: It's okay, I guess. I don't think I would buy it, though, unless there was no other source of +Buy, and I don't think I would overpay for it even then. It's almost strictly worse than Travelling Fair.

River: Far better than before. It does seem weird, though, that a River would interact with Ruins, and isn't a Victory card. I can't think of any better names either, though.

Settlement: Good; now there's a reason for it to be a Reserve. It does seem to me to be too much stronger than a Duchy to only cost $1 more; it should probably cost $7 or even $8.

Trading Vessel: Since it hasn't been changed, I don't have anything new to say about it.

Decay: Now this one is interesting; I'm not sure how well a cost-reducing event would work, though.

Cottage: This is pitfalls #11 and #19 in the Fan Card Creation Guide; this not only doesn't encourage buying cards or use up finite resources like Bishop, Goons and Monument do, but it even discourages buying cards, easily making the game go infinite. It's second special (coins to buys) is useless in sets that don't have any +$ granting Action cards.

Reconstruct: Oh boy. There are two massive problems with this one. First of all, it's too weak. The top-half without the attack is only about a $2 or less effect, and the attack is basically Tax Man's, but that card's attack isn't the reason we use it; it's just an added bonus. I would still buy Tax Men if they didn't have the attack at all but cost the same. Second problem is that it is pitfall #4. Do you really want to make players wait every single time they ever draw any card, even between drawing multiple cards during their Cleanup phases and while resolving cards like Smithy, to see if anybody will react to it? This could probably make a single dominion game turn into a game the length of Monopoly, just because it takes 3 seconds for every single card draw.

Here's my suggestion for it:

Reconstruct:
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card with up to the same cost, putting it into your hand. Each other player discards a copy of the trashed card (or reveals a hand with none).

At the start of another player's turn, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, reveal the top two cards of that player's deck. You may discard one. Put the rest back in any order.
Cost: $4
Action - Attack - Reaction

This way, each player only has to wait at the start of his turn, and it's stronger (and cheaper; even with this buff, $5 is too costly).

Scenic Village: This one is very interesting. My experience has shown so far that infinite Actions really aren't that different from +2 Actions, so $4 is a good price point, since this is strictly better than Village (exception: Diadem).

Stronghold: Like I've said in an earlier post, I don't know why you decided to make it at the start of your Buy phase instead of at the start of your turn (the names of the phases are supposed to be capitalized, by the way).

Reinforcements: Both of those are really nasty. Probably too nasty to only cost $1 more than Smithy.





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Nflickner

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2016, 06:58:08 pm »
+1

Added 5 new cards! ;D
Seige
-+Action on the start of your next turn
-Cost reduction is "While this is in play"
-Specifies adding an extra event
-Extra event must cost at least 2
Settlement
-Increased points to 3
-Gives one point on the tavern mat
-Swapped the +action and the +buy
River
-Now directly plays the ruin
-Lets you trash the ruin after playing it instead of drawing a card
-Costs 4
Escort
-Simplified wording (Thanks to Co0kiel0rd)
Lagoon
-Removed discarding with no estates

Here's mock-ups of Co0kiel0rd's Dry Docks and Secret Society and LibraryAdventurer's Ancient temple with different art.



I just like this art better, and if anyone else does than feel free to use these versions.

Thanks I appreciate these greatly--I especially prefer your Secret Society version better.  Would you be willing to post a version of Secret Society that costs 4 instead of three coin?  I know there was some discussion about it on Cookielords pages.  I just think that it is potentially too powerful to grab two of them in your first two turns.  Also, what program do you use to mock up yours or others' cards?  I'm really enjoying your cards you are posting as well.  I like looking at fan cards that are made up with pictures, because I'm more likely to look at them if I think there is a chance I will print them myself. 
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AdrianHealey

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2016, 07:26:47 pm »
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Definitely think Secret Society should cost 4, not 3.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2016, 08:20:16 pm »
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Definitely think Secret Society should cost 4, not 3.
Done! Oh, no credit to takashmen on the last one, fixed that too!
I really appreciate all the comments you have posted, especially Nflicner for his optomism and c0kiel0rd for his help! I'm glad at least 3 of my cards haven'nt needed major edits.  :)
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AdrianHealey

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2016, 08:32:06 pm »
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Is the first post updated with all the most recent versions? :)
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Nflickner

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2016, 08:35:19 pm »
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Definitely think Secret Society should cost 4, not 3.
Done! Oh, no credit to takashmen on the last one, fixed that too!
I really appreciate all the comments you have posted, especially Nflicner for his optomism and c0kiel0rd for his help! I'm glad at least 3 of my cards haven'nt needed major edits.  :)

Let us know when you put up the 4 cost version of Secret Society :)  And thanks!  Also, I love the artwork and idea of Stronghold, but I prefer the more nuanced version in the Seasons set.  In that one, the card has the same effect, except that in the last quarter of the game ("Winter") it doesn't give you any bonus.  That is why Asper and Cookielord made it cost 5.  I wonder if there was a way to differentiate it even more from their card ("trade port").  Perhaps adding a very minor attack to it and taking away either the plus buy or the plus coin?  The attack could be something like, each other person discards a card costing 3 or more and draws a card.  I don't know--just some thoughts :)
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AdrianHealey

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2016, 09:21:36 pm »
+1

Siege
Like I said earlier, I find the 'not buy events' clause a bit too bruttle. Also in terms of fun: you add (at least) one more evnet and then you end up not using any of them? I mean; if it's strong events, I am definitely buying siege... But now everyone does it, and nobody gets to use any events. I'd use the 'gain a curse if you buy event' (or even: 'gain a curse and a copper' kind of punishment, or something.)

Escort
It's a lot of text, but I guess it works. I am not entirely sure it's also it's own best defense, which might lead to a pile out. But it's not the strongest of all attacks, so maybe not.

Fortified Village
Niche, but cool. I don't like trashing my villages, though.

Lagoon
Sucks with nobles. But cool card nonetheless. It feels strong, though. It's basically a useful laboratory. (Ok, you loose at least 2 cards, but one of them is the useless estate.)

Market Day
Cool. Not sure how useful it is. But cool.

River
Interesting. I am usually not a huge fan of making 'bad' cards (curse, ruins) into something useful. But it's a cool interaction with the trashing/not-trashing decision.

Settlement
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$4
for sacrificing 2 vp's? Seems worth it.
$6 is a fair price. Cool design.

Trading Vessel
Changing coppers/estates/curses into silver for $3? Sure, why not. There is use for this.

Decay
It feels strong, but might be possible.

Cottage
Like it. The phrasing is clear what you mean.

Reconstruct
I am not sure about the reaction part. It feels like 'let's do something with this card, when it stops being useful on the top side, no?
I mean; I don't know if it's balanced, but more important, I don't know if it's just a lot of words for a non-fun event.

Scenic Village
This looks absurd, imo. I like that even with villages, you still have to be careful with actions. (I am also a bit uncertain why it even gives '+1 Action' to begin with? I mean, for what? Are you going to procession it and for that reason you want to also have it give +1 Action?

I also just don't like it general. I have a card that's basically a +1 Action hireling and that's need (I think) because it allows for the difficult decision of buying at a great expense, and even when you do have it, you still have to make the choice of what action to play. With this card... you just do. (Champion is different, because you have to work towards it.)

So it might be balanced, but I don't know. It would take away something I consider to be fun about dominion.

Stronghold
I like it, but I think I like trade port (from Seasons) better, although that one is slightly weaker.

Reinforcements
Pretty straight forward and it's good.

Ancient Temple
I think you can remove stuff after 'discard any revealed cards costing $7 or more'. I am ot sure it adds to the card and it's just a bunch of additional words.

Harbor
Strong draw that helps others. I like cards like that.

Secret Society
Good, and better at $4. Question: Do we know what cards are in the secret society deck?


Any other cards you want us to commentate?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 09:25:18 pm by AdrianHealey »
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Gubump

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2016, 12:20:25 am »
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Scenic Village
I am also a bit uncertain why it even gives '+1 Action' to begin with?

Because otherwise, you would have to play a Village right before it for it to do anything. If the previous Action gave only 1 Action, you wouldn't have any Actions left to play any cards with. This is because it starts being in play AFTER you play it, not the other way around, so the 'while in play' effect doesn't include itself.
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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2016, 12:40:19 am »
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Ancient Temple
I think you can remove stuff after 'discard any revealed cards costing $7 or more'. I am ot sure it adds to the card and it's just a bunch of additional words.

Harbor
Strong draw that helps others. I like cards like that.

Secret Society
Good, and better at $4. Question: Do we know what cards are in the secret society deck?
As ThetaSigma12 mentioned, these three are not his cards. They are his mock-ups of other people's cards. Ancient Temple is mine. The 'discard any revealed cards costing $7 or more' part is there to make it unlikely to gain two provinces by playing two Ancient Temples (or Throning one) with three high-cost cards on top of your deck.

tristan

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2016, 01:15:18 am »
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I'm very confused as to how common sense and the card wording could lead to the conclusion that you should use 3 events when playing with it. That would only make sense if normal games of Dominion were always played with 2 events, but they aren't. There's nothing on the card that would imply "3" as a number of events to use. That number sounds every bit as arbitrary to me as saying "1" or "4".
It is a matter of perspective. If you come at this from a rule-lawyer perspective any number between 1 and 21 makes sense.

If you come at this from a 'strength and weaknesses' perspective it is pretty obvious, at least to me, that anything beneath 3 Events would make a mildly weak card far too weak.
Even with three Events it is after all most often just a non-terminal Copper or Silver (you will pretty rarely buy 3 Events per turn) with the added bonus of preventing the other players from buying Events, thus making their Sieges weaker. The former is worth between nothing and 3 and the latter is one the one hand good for you while you play it but bad for the strength of Siege overall. These negative synergies (the more other folks use Siege the weaker yours get) could potentially make Siege be balanced at 2$.

My hunch is that the new version with the non-terminal duration village is probably OK for 3.
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tristan

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2016, 01:30:07 am »
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Let us know when you put up the 4 cost version of Secret Society :)  And thanks!  Also, I love the artwork and idea of Stronghold, but I prefer the more nuanced version in the Seasons set.  In that one, the card has the same effect, except that in the last quarter of the game ("Winter") it doesn't give you any bonus.  That is why Asper and Cookielord made it cost 5.
I am not fan of Hireling variants that provide coins as they are too similar to Treasury for my taste. Ramos's Haunted Castle (with a price of 5$) is the only decent Hireling variant implementation I have seen so far.
But if one wants to do a Hireling version of Market, Stronghold is definitely the right way to do it as the version from Seasons is overpowered.
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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2016, 02:06:21 am »
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A few notes about events:
Siege seems slightly broken. With Travelling Fair and your events which give +2 buys, get 2 of these in play and immediately have unlimited buys. That might be a cool feature with Travelling Fair, but with your Decay, that's a combo that instantly empties the supply. I think there's a reason you can't change the cost of events.
Also in your description of Market Day, out seems like you're assuming that Travelling Fair's top-decking is mandatory. It's optional. Not sure if that will make you reevaluate Market Day, but just something to note.
Overall, cool cards.

Edit: a wording thing (and I don't know if this has been said), but I'm pretty sure events aren't in the supply. Is this right?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 02:10:45 am by J Reggie »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2016, 04:11:03 am »
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Let us know when you put up the 4 cost version of Secret Society :)  And thanks!  Also, I love the artwork and idea of Stronghold, but I prefer the more nuanced version in the Seasons set.  In that one, the card has the same effect, except that in the last quarter of the game ("Winter") it doesn't give you any bonus.  That is why Asper and Cookielord made it cost 5.
I am not fan of Hireling variants that provide coins as they are too similar to Treasury for my taste. Ramos's Haunted Castle (with a price of 5$) is the only decent Hireling variant implementation I have seen so far.
But if one wants to do a Hireling version of Market, Stronghold is definitely the right way to do it as the version from Seasons is overpowered.

I have played 2 games with Trade Port and - yes, small N - it definitely did not feel overpowered. We didn't have a 2-5 opening, so maybe then it moght be.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2016, 07:17:22 am »
0

Siege
Like I said earlier, I find the 'not buy events' clause a bit too bruttle. Also in terms of fun: you add (at least) one more evnet and then you end up not using any of them? I mean; if it's strong events, I am definitely buying siege... But now everyone does it, and nobody gets to use any events. I'd use the 'gain a curse if you buy event' (or even: 'gain a curse and a copper' kind of punishment, or something.)
That will be fixed in the next update. I thought it would be fine compared to swamp hag as it only blocks 3 cards, swamp hag affects 16. But I do see that with multiple players the events might never get used.

Escort
It's a lot of text, but I guess it works. I am not entirely sure it's also it's own best defense, which might lead to a pile out. But it's not the strongest of all attacks, so maybe not.

Fortified Village
Niche, but cool. I don't like trashing my villages, though.
Yeah, but the thing I like about this one is it still might be useful on a board with other villages.

Lagoon
Sucks with nobles. But cool card nonetheless. It feels strong, though. It's basically a useful laboratory. (Ok, you loose at least 2 cards, but one of them is the useless estate.)
It was meant to have a self synergy. Opened 5/1? Now you have something good to buy. Hand full of estates? Draw a few more cards. I mean it sucks in shelters games, but so does baron so hey.

Market Day
Cool. Not sure how useful it is. But cool.

River
Interesting. I am usually not a huge fan of making 'bad' cards (curse, ruins) into something useful. But it's a cool interaction with the trashing/not-trashing decision.

Settlement
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$4
for sacrificing 2 vp's? Seems worth it.
$6 is a fair price. Cool design.
Is it though? I mean what are you going to spend the extra $3 on that will get the 2 VP back.

Trading Vessel
Changing coppers/estates/curses into silver for $3? Sure, why not. There is use for this.

Decay
It feels strong, but might be possible.

Cottage
Like it. The phrasing is clear what you mean.
In the next update I'm going to change the whole spend a thing to take your -$1 token/-1 card token.

Reconstruct
I am not sure about the reaction part. It feels like 'let's do something with this card, when it stops being useful on the top side, no?
I mean; I don't know if it's balanced, but more important, I don't know if it's just a lot of words for a non-fun event.

Scenic Village
This looks absurd, imo. I like that even with villages, you still have to be careful with actions. (I am also a bit uncertain why it even gives '+1 Action' to begin with? I mean, for what? Are you going to procession it and for that reason you want to also have it give +1 Action?

I also just don't like it general. I have a card that's basically a +1 Action hireling and that's need (I think) because it allows for the difficult decision of buying at a great expense, and even when you do have it, you still have to make the choice of what action to play. With this card... you just do. (Champion is different, because you have to work towards it.)

So it might be balanced, but I don't know. It would take away something I consider to be fun about dominion.
I gave it +1 action because I wasn't sure the bottom effect would kick in after you played it. Actions are the cheapest resource so unlimited for 1 turn isn't much of a problem IMO. I know some people just don't like champion, but all I can say is that this card is not for them then.

Stronghold
I like it, but I think I like trade port (from Seasons) better, although that one is slightly weaker.
I liked trade port to, but this doesn't require all the setup. I mean, if I'm going to play with the season cards I want to use at least 3.

Reinforcements
Pretty straight forward and it's good.
I like how it stacks exactly twice. It might be a little OP so maybe I will drop a card and give it +1 buy.

The other cards aren't mine, so I'll refrain from commenting on them.
Comments in bold.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2016, 07:20:43 am »
0

A few notes about events:
Siege seems slightly broken. With Travelling Fair and your events which give +2 buys, get 2 of these in play and immediately have unlimited buys. That might be a cool feature with Travelling Fair, but with your Decay, that's a combo that instantly empties the supply. I think there's a reason you can't change the cost of events.
Also in your description of Market Day, out seems like you're assuming that Travelling Fair's top-decking is mandatory. It's optional. Not sure if that will make you reevaluate Market Day, but just something to note.
Overall, cool cards.

Edit: a wording thing (and I don't know if this has been said), but I'm pretty sure events aren't in the supply. Is this right?
Actually now I'm not re-visioning market day, but travelling fair. Not sure about events in the supply though.
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GendoIkari

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2016, 09:28:14 am »
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I just realized that Seige allows infinite buying of Scouting Party or Travelling Fair. It could be that with those particular events, it's not too strong to allow it; but the same would happen with any potential event that has +1 buy and not "once per turn".

*edit* Yeah, what J Reggie said.
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Nflickner

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2016, 10:19:36 am »
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Let us know when you put up the 4 cost version of Secret Society :)  And thanks!  Also, I love the artwork and idea of Stronghold, but I prefer the more nuanced version in the Seasons set.  In that one, the card has the same effect, except that in the last quarter of the game ("Winter") it doesn't give you any bonus.  That is why Asper and Cookielord made it cost 5.
I am not fan of Hireling variants that provide coins as they are too similar to Treasury for my taste. Ramos's Haunted Castle (with a price of 5$) is the only decent Hireling variant implementation I have seen so far.
But if one wants to do a Hireling version of Market, Stronghold is definitely the right way to do it as the version from Seasons is overpowered.

I have played 2 games with Trade Port and - yes, small N - it definitely did not feel overpowered. We didn't have a 2-5 opening, so maybe then it moght be.

I agree--I've already played with Trade Port in real games, and it doesn't feel overpowered to us. 
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2016, 12:47:41 pm »
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Maybe for seige all events could lose their cost reduction once you buy them: All events which you have not bought this turn cost 1 less.
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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2016, 12:52:29 pm »
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Maybe for seige all events could lose their cost reduction once you buy them: All events which you have not bought this turn cost 1 less.

That sounds like a great idea; Siege won't be broken anymore, and it also makes it more interesting.
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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2016, 01:34:31 pm »
0


« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 02:28:43 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2016, 03:00:40 pm »
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Thanks!!! Where do you find your art? 
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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2016, 03:13:21 pm »
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Updated comments again! This time, I'm ignoring ones that weren't changed since last time:

Siege: Why did you change the top part as well as the bottom? The top was fine.

Cottage: Much better. It no longer accumulates VP in an OP fashion, and it is now useful even in the absence of +$ granting Actions. However, a new problem has now arisen: It doesn't keep you accountable in the case that you don't have any Treasures to play, since playing Treasures is mandatory. I think it should be optional.

Reconstruct: I see you made it exactly like my suggested version. Now it is much better!

Reinforcements: For some reason, I really like the combination of +2 Cards and +1 Buy. This is also a lot better balanced now.

Forum: I don't see any necessary wording changes.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 03:15:17 pm by Gubump »
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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2016, 03:59:44 am »
+1

A few notes about events:
Siege seems slightly broken. With Travelling Fair and your events which give +2 buys, get 2 of these in play and immediately have unlimited buys. That might be a cool feature with Travelling Fair, but with your Decay, that's a combo that instantly empties the supply. I think there's a reason you can't change the cost of events.
Decay costs 3 so you would need 3 Sieges. Not to mention that Decay being overpowered has nothing to do with Siege.
A hand with 4 Silvers can gain a Province but that doesn't mean that Silver is overpowered.

This is really extremely funny because the main issue of the original version Siege (I cannot keep up with the permanent changes) was that it was pretty weak.  :D

@Theta: About the constant changing, you might wanna consider first what you want Siege to be and then fine-tweak it. Just rushing through all kind of stuff, from a non-terminal to a non-terminal duration village to a terminal Copper seems pretty aimless.

About the other cards, I like Reinforcements and Forum. Forum could create an interesting trade-off but it could very well be the case that there are virtually never (except when you would keep it anyway, e.g. because you have no extra buys and enough coins, without spending the Spoils, for a Province ) situations in which you'd not want to spend the Spoils.
River is too strong now. Gee, it turns a Ruined Library (when you gain it) into a Lost City!
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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2016, 10:19:45 am »
+1

A few notes about events:
Siege seems slightly broken. With Travelling Fair and your events which give +2 buys, get 2 of these in play and immediately have unlimited buys. That might be a cool feature with Travelling Fair, but with your Decay, that's a combo that instantly empties the supply. I think there's a reason you can't change the cost of events.
Decay costs 3 so you would need 3 Sieges. Not to mention that Decay being overpowered has nothing to do with Siege.
A hand with 4 Silvers can gain a Province but that doesn't mean that Silver is overpowered.

But a hand of 4 Silvers can't gain the Supply. 3 Sieges and Decay can. And before the current update, Siege was non-terminal, which made it very easy to achieve, and the first person to do so wins.
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GendoIkari

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Re: ThetaSigma12's Fan cards
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2016, 11:40:12 am »
0

A few notes about events:
Siege seems slightly broken. With Travelling Fair and your events which give +2 buys, get 2 of these in play and immediately have unlimited buys. That might be a cool feature with Travelling Fair, but with your Decay, that's a combo that instantly empties the supply. I think there's a reason you can't change the cost of events.
Decay costs 3 so you would need 3 Sieges. Not to mention that Decay being overpowered has nothing to do with Siege.
A hand with 4 Silvers can gain a Province but that doesn't mean that Silver is overpowered.

But a hand of 4 Silvers can't gain the Supply. 3 Sieges and Decay can. And before the current update, Siege was non-terminal, which made it very easy to achieve, and the first person to do so wins.

I agree. But to play Devil's Advocate, a better analogy than a hand of 4 Silvers is a hand of KC, KC, Bridge, Bridge, Bridge. While this can't gain the supply, it can gain all the Provinces. Now I don't think that they're quite comparable mostly because KC costs $7 so it's not that easy to get 2 of them.
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