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Gubump

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Technology Cards
« on: April 07, 2016, 11:08:21 pm »
+3

Cards with the type "technology" cannot be gained or bought, but are still in the Supply. So how do you get them? Some cards specifically mention Technology cards in gaining cards, and others temporarily make them so that they can be obtained.

Here's a base card that's always added when at least one Technology card is in the Supply:

Battery:
$1
+1 Buy

While this is in play, you may gain Technology cards.
Cost: $3
Treasure

And here are two of the Technology cards:

Steam Engine:
+2 Cards
You may spend a Fuel token. If you do, +2 Actions.
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, take a Fuel token for every $1 it cost.
Cost: $3*
Action - Technology

Clarification: The trashing and the fuel token bonuses are not mutually exclusive, so you can do both. They are in order, however, so you can't spend one of the Fuel tokens you just received.

Mad Scientist:
You may discard a Battery from your hand. If you do, each other player gains a Curse or a Copper, your choice.
You may spend a Fuel token. If you do, each other player gains a Curse or a Copper, your choice.
If you didn't do either, you may discard a Battery from your hand. If you do, take two Fuel tokens.
Cost: $5*
Action - Attack - Technology

Clarification: Again, the first two abilities are not mutually exclusive, so you can potentially give out two Curses with a single Mad Scientist, which is the only thing preventing it from being strictly worse than a Sea Hag.

Clarification 2: Either every opponent gains a Curse or every opponent gains a Copper. You can't discriminate between opponents.

Clock Tower:
Choose an Action card from your hand. Play it now and, if it's still in play, at the start of your next turn.

This costs $2 more if this isn't the first card you've bought this turn. (Applies after cost reduction)
Cost: $0*
Action - Duration - Technology

Clarification: If the card you CTed trashed itself the first time, CT is discarded from play the same turn you played it.

Clarification 2: After you've bought a card, the minimum possible cost for CTs is $2, because the cost increase takes effect after cost reduction effects, which can't reduce its price below $0.

Invent:
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, which may be a Technology card.
If you trashed a Technology card, play the gained card.

Setup: Add an extra Kingdom Action card pile costing $3 or $4 to the Supply. Cards from that pile gain the Technology type.
Cost: $5
Action
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 05:52:32 pm by Gubump »
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Marcory

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2016, 02:07:54 am »
0

I get that Battery's strength lies in enabling the Technology cards, but its vanilla abilities are strictly worse than Herbalist. Compare to Black Market--it's only a terminal silver and worse than other $3 Terminal Silvers in it's vanilla ability, but it's (usually) better than the $2 Terminal Silvers: Duchess (which helps your opponent) or Embargo (which is a one-shot). Meanwhile, Tournament is a Peddler (except when it isn't), making it reasonably priced at $4.

Maybe have Battery be +2 Cards, +1 Buy? That way, you still might buy it for the buy or draw even if you don't need the Tech cards. Otherwise, since Battery is so key to the Tech Cards, you might want to move its price point to $2, for the same reasons that Chapel is $2--you don't want to force people to have to open Battery/nothing on a $5/$2 opening (if you intend for Tech cards to be truly powerful.) Alternately, you might want to make Batteries non-terminal (e.g. $2, +1 Action, +1 Buy) so that people aren't penalized by buying several of them. Or you could make Batteries an alternative Treasure, like Potion.

Also, how does the 'while this is in play' clause work? I get that playing Battery allows you to buy Tech cards (or Workshop them, Remodel into them, etc), but it will probably do weird things with City, the game-ending conditions, etc. Is that a feature or a bug?

Finally, Mad Scientist is worded weirdly. The way it's written, if I trash a Battery or spend a Fuel token, and my opponent reveals Moat, I can now discard a Battery for more Fuel. But that's only relevant if I have two Batteries in my hand. Is that what you meant?

Otherwise, you can have Mad Scientist set aside a Battery or Fuel token, have everyone gain a curse, and then trash/spend the set-aside item if anyone did get cursed.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 02:10:02 am by Marcory »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2016, 03:00:55 am »
+1

Neat idea, and I like the looks of Steam engine. Looking forward to what else you come up with for this.
I don't like mad scientist because I don't like any card that doesn't do anything for the one who played it.

Since tech cards are harder to buy (since you need a battery), they should be on the strong side for their cost. Steam engine might be, but mad scientist should cost less then $5.

@Marcory: Battery is a treasure.

majiponi

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2016, 06:47:58 am »
+4

This idea is similar to Potion. How do you characterize it?
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Gubump

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2016, 09:23:59 am »
0

I get that Battery's strength lies in enabling the Technology cards, but its vanilla abilities are strictly worse than Herbalist. Compare to Black Market--it's only a terminal silver and worse than other $3 Terminal Silvers in it's vanilla ability, but it's (usually) better than the $2 Terminal Silvers: Duchess (which helps your opponent) or Embargo (which is a one-shot). Meanwhile, Tournament is a Peddler (except when it isn't), making it reasonably priced at $4.

Maybe have Battery be +2 Cards, +1 Buy? That way, you still might buy it for the buy or draw even if you don't need the Tech cards. Otherwise, since Battery is so key to the Tech Cards, you might want to move its price point to $2, for the same reasons that Chapel is $2--you don't want to force people to have to open Battery/nothing on a $5/$2 opening (if you intend for Tech cards to be truly powerful.) Alternately, you might want to make Batteries non-terminal (e.g. $2, +1 Action, +1 Buy) so that people aren't penalized by buying several of them. Or you could make Batteries an alternative Treasure, like Potion.

Also, how does the 'while this is in play' clause work? I get that playing Battery allows you to buy Tech cards (or Workshop them, Remodel into them, etc), but it will probably do weird things with City, the game-ending conditions, etc. Is that a feature or a bug?

Finally, Mad Scientist is worded weirdly. The way it's written, if I trash a Battery or spend a Fuel token, and my opponent reveals Moat, I can now discard a Battery for more Fuel. But that's only relevant if I have two Batteries in my hand. Is that what you meant?

Otherwise, you can have Mad Scientist set aside a Battery or Fuel token, have everyone gain a curse, and then trash/spend the set-aside item if anyone did get cursed.

As per your suggestion, Mad Scientist's last clause takes effect if you didn't even try to Curse anybody with it, and all the Technology cards are in the Supply but still usually unobtainable, since my intention was that they always counted towards the 3-pile ending and towards City.

Also, as LibraryAdventurer pointed out, Battery is a Treasure, not an Action.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 09:25:17 am by Gubump »
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Gubump

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2016, 09:27:18 am »
0

Neat idea, and I like the looks of Steam engine. Looking forward to what else you come up with for this.
I don't like mad scientist because I don't like any card that doesn't do anything for the one who played it.

Since tech cards are harder to buy (since you need a battery), they should be on the strong side for their cost. Steam engine might be, but mad scientist should cost less then $5.

@Marcory: Battery is a treasure.

1: If Mad Scientist turns out to be too weak for $5, I'll boost it by giving the user a bonus.
2: Playtesting will prove whether they are or not. We've already playtested an earlier version of Steam Engine in one game, and it probably is, but Mad Scientist hasn't been playtested at all yet.
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Ankenaut

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2016, 10:23:34 am »
0

I really like the mechanics and the theme.  Although, if Battery is a treasure, doesn't that mean that you can't use it to gain technology cards during your Action phase? Is that intended?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 10:24:59 am by Ankenaut »
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Marcory

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2016, 01:03:57 pm »
0

I forgot to mention in my late-night post that I like this idea.

I was wondering, though, how many Batteries are you going to have in the supply? You'll probably need quite a few so that you can trash them with Mad Scientist.

Also, will all Tech cards be in the supply every game that has Battery, or will it be limited somehow? And will there be 10 of each Tech card, or one per player?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2016, 01:51:42 pm »
0

This idea is similar to Potion. How do you characterize it?

Agreed.  How is this concept really different from Potion?

Edit:  I guess a single Battery is enough to enable buying multiple Technology cards on the same turn.  Doesn't seem significant enough to me not to just use Potion though.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 01:58:54 pm by eHalcyon »
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Marcory

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2016, 03:07:29 pm »
0

Instead of the unusual wording on Battery (that it puts Technology cards into the Supply), wouldn't it be easier to have an under-the-line text on each Technology card that 'you may not buy this unless you have a Battery in play'.

Also, if you're going to have a Battery, you desperately need to have an Attack card called Assault.
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Ankenaut

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2016, 03:09:13 pm »
0

Agreed.  How is this concept really different from Potion?

I think the original idea (though not if it's a treasure) also allowed Battery to enable you to gain cards (like with Workshop et al.), and potion-cost cards don't work in those situations. Plus, since Battery also has some other effects besides just being the potion-like resource, that helps. I guess maybe I just wish this is how potions actually worked.
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Ankenaut

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2016, 03:12:44 pm »
0

Here's a base card that's always added when at least one Technology card is in the Supply:

Instead of the unusual wording on Battery (that it puts Technology cards into the Supply), wouldn't it be easier to have an under-the-line text on each Technology card that 'you may not buy this unless you have a Battery in play'.

I think it's the other way around. Technology cards are Kindom cards that you can put out like any other, and you only put Batteries out when they're there. I agree that it would instead be better to put the rule on the Technology cards - maybe say "you may not gain this unless you have a Battery in play".
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2016, 06:51:45 pm »
0

Agreed.  How is this concept really different from Potion?

I think the original idea (though not if it's a treasure) also allowed Battery to enable you to gain cards (like with Workshop et al.), and potion-cost cards don't work in those situations. Plus, since Battery also has some other effects besides just being the potion-like resource, that helps. I guess maybe I just wish this is how potions actually worked.
Here's a way to include gainers like workshop:

Quote
Battery
$3 cost - Treasure - Reaction
+1 Buy
Worth $1
-
When you play an action that tells you to gain a card, you may play this from your hand.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 06:54:40 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2016, 07:16:05 pm »
0

Agreed.  How is this concept really different from Potion?

I think the original idea (though not if it's a treasure) also allowed Battery to enable you to gain cards (like with Workshop et al.), and potion-cost cards don't work in those situations. Plus, since Battery also has some other effects besides just being the potion-like resource, that helps. I guess maybe I just wish this is how potions actually worked.

The OP says that Battery is a Treasure.
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Marcory

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2016, 08:42:32 pm »
0

If you're going to have cards that require trashing Battery, why not make Battery semi-untrashable? For example, on Battery, you could have:

'When you trash this, you may discard two cards from your hand, to put it into your Discard pile.' (This also protects the Battery against Swindler etc.)

Alternately, Mad Scientist probably only needs to discard (or maybe even play?) a Battery to give a Curse. Having two cards collide is already hard enough without trashing the Battery the first time you use it. Otherwise, you'd have to fill your deck with Batteries to use them, and since Battery itself is a glorified Copper, this doesn't seem to me to be a winning strategy, no matter how awesome the Technology cards are.
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Gubump

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2016, 09:39:43 pm »
0

If you're going to have cards that require trashing Battery, why not make Battery semi-untrashable? For example, on Battery, you could have:

'When you trash this, you may discard two cards from your hand, to put it into your Discard pile.' (This also protects the Battery against Swindler etc.)

Alternately, Mad Scientist probably only needs to discard (or maybe even play?) a Battery to give a Curse. Having two cards collide is already hard enough without trashing the Battery the first time you use it. Otherwise, you'd have to fill your deck with Batteries to use them, and since Battery itself is a glorified Copper, this doesn't seem to me to be a winning strategy, no matter how awesome the Technology cards are.

Mad Scientist now only needs to discard a Battery to give out Curses.

Here's a base card that's always added when at least one Technology card is in the Supply:

Instead of the unusual wording on Battery (that it puts Technology cards into the Supply), wouldn't it be easier to have an under-the-line text on each Technology card that 'you may not buy this unless you have a Battery in play'.

I think it's the other way around. Technology cards are Kindom cards that you can put out like any other, and you only put Batteries out when they're there. I agree that it would instead be better to put the rule on the Technology cards - maybe say "you may not gain this unless you have a Battery in play".

You are correct.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2016, 01:52:04 am »
+1

I get the theme, but I just want to say this...the idea of a battery-powered steam engine...

I would also like to address this:
Here's a way to include gainers like workshop:

Quote
Battery
$3 cost - Treasure - Reaction
+1 Buy
Worth $1
-
When you play an action that tells you to gain a card, you may play this from your hand.

I would reword the reaction part:
When you would gain a card, you may first play this card from your hand.
That limits certain possible edge cases (like Farmlands, which has you gain a card but is not an action, or transmogrify, which us "called" and not "played"), and, to me at least, is a simpler wording.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 01:54:41 am by Doom_Shark »
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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2016, 08:03:51 pm »
0

You guys are crazy...if you want it to be playable during your action phase, just make it an action.

Quote
Battery
$3 - Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+

While this is in play, Technology cards are in the supply.

This means you can draw it dead, but making it less like Potion is probably a good thing.
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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2016, 08:15:54 pm »
+2

I know what's missing here!

Quote
Time Bomb
$2 Action - Technology - Reserve

Put this on your tavern mat.

When you play a battery, you may call this, to trash this and a card from your hand.

When you gain this, trash a battery you have in play.
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Gubump

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2016, 08:42:06 pm »
0

I have now added two more cards, Invent and Clock Tower. Also, because of how quickly Mad Scientist becomes a dead card, I have made it so that it can give out Coppers instead of Curses if the user wishes. I have also bolded the names of all cards, so that the OP is easier to read.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 08:44:02 pm by Gubump »
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Marcory

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2016, 09:18:30 pm »
0

Mad Scientist:
You may discard a Battery from your hand. If you do, each other player gains a Curse or a Copper, your choice.
You may spend a Fuel token. If you do, each other player gains a Curse or a Copper, your choice.
If you didn't do either, you may discard a Battery from your hand. If you do, take two Fuel tokens.
Cost: $5*
Action - Attack - Technology

Clarification: Again, the first two abilities are not mutually exclusive, so you can potentially give out two Curses with a single Mad Scientist, which is the only thing preventing it from being strictly worse than a Sea Hag.

Clarification 2: Either every opponent gains a Curse or every opponent gains a Copper. You can't discriminate between opponents.

Clock Tower:
Choose an Action card from your hand. Play it now and, if it's still in play, at the start of your next turn.

This costs $2 more if this isn't the first card you've bought this turn. (Applies after cost reduction)
Cost: $0*
Action - Duration - Technology

Clarification: If the card you CTed trashed itself the first time, CT is discarded from play the same turn you played it.

Clarification 2: After you've bought a card, the minimum possible cost for CTs is $2, because the cost increase takes effect after cost reduction effects, which can't reduce its price below $0.

Invent:
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, which may be a Technology card.
If you trashed an Invention card, play the gained card.

Setup: Add an extra Kingdom Action card pile costing $3 or $4 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Invention cards and gain the Technology type.
Cost: $5
Action

Mad Scientist: Probably you should put the Fuel option first. The second option would then be: "You may discard a Battery. If you do, choose one: Each other player gains a Curse; Each other player gains a Copper; take two Fuel tokens."

Clock tower: it would be better if had wording of 'less' rather than 'more'--so that its base cost is $2*, with a qualification "this costs $2 less is not the first card you bought this turn." Ok, that makes this card susceptible to Bridge/Quarry etc, but I'm not sure that you were trying to avoid that effect, which is minimal for a $2 card anyway.

As for the main effect, I think it would be better rendered as: 'Set aside an Action you have in play. At the start of your next turn, play it." That way, you don't need the wording that keeps Feast etc from being played twice.

Invent: What is an 'invention' card? Did you mean 'Invent'?

Finally, it might be easier for others to read your cards in one of the following two formats, which are more standardized:

1) Card Name Main Type-[Secondary Type] $X
Above-the-line Effect
--------
Below-the-line Effect

or

2)Card Name
Main Type-[Secondary Type] $X

Above-the-line Effect
----------
Below-the-line Effect

This way, people can see the main type (Action/Treasure/Victory) and secondary type (Technology/Attack/Reaction/whatever) and the cost immediately.
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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2016, 12:19:57 am »
0

I get the theme, but I just want to say this...the idea of a battery-powered steam engine...

I would also like to address this:
Here's a way to include gainers like workshop:

Quote
Battery
$3 cost - Treasure - Reaction
+1 Buy
Worth $1
-
When you play an action that tells you to gain a card, you may play this from your hand.

I would reword the reaction part:
When you would gain a card, you may first play this card from your hand.
That limits certain possible edge cases (like Farmlands, which has you gain a card but is not an action, or transmogrify, which us "called" and not "played"), and, to me at least, is a simpler wording.
The problem is that you wouldn't gain a card until you've decided what to gain and by then it's too late to change what you gain to a technology card.

Gubump

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Re: Technology Cards
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2016, 12:58:51 am »
+1

Setup: Add an extra Kingdom Action card pile costing $3 or $4 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Invention cards and gain the Technology type.
Cost: $5
Action
Invent: What is an 'invention' card? Did you mean 'Invent'?

Dude. Seriously? Did you not actually read the second part of the card? Invention cards are an extra Supply pile, like Bane cards.

EDIT: The extra pile are no longer titled Invention cards, but sill gain the Technology type, and Invent only has to trash Technology cards in general to play the gained card.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 05:53:42 pm by Gubump »
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