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Author Topic: New Best & Worst Openings?  (Read 13577 times)

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gloures

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2016, 07:47:56 pm »
0

A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

Summoning remake turn one and thrashing two estates turn two, looks specially incredible
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luser

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2016, 08:11:09 pm »
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A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

Summoning remake turn one and thrashing two estates turn two, looks specially incredible

Thats still quite weak, compared with for example by inheriting procession and getting two governors on turn 2
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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2016, 08:15:04 pm »
0

A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

Summoning remake turn one and thrashing two estates turn two, looks specially incredible

Thats still quite weak, compared with for example by inheriting procession and getting two governors on turn 2

This doesn't work, since Estate still costs 2. You'll get two Actions costing 3.

Seprix

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2016, 09:15:12 pm »
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A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

Summon a Chapel.
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Marcory

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2016, 09:24:41 pm »
0

Best: Alms (Remake/Tournament)/Inherit Ironmonger.
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Awaclus

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2016, 02:50:43 am »
+2

Maybe we should have a "what's the best Mercenary/X opening" bracket!

I vote for Mercenary/Platinum as your opening buys.

I think there's an argument to be made for Mercenary/Champion, followed by a Diadem buy on T3.

Nice Awaclusian answer. :)

There would need to be a reference to an f.ds meme though. Such as the Platinum/Platinum opening.

Instead, I would say that it was a nice faustian answer.
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Davio

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2016, 05:50:28 am »
0

Shelters: Baker + Borrow for $7.

T1: Open Stonemason, Mountebank, Minion
T2: Necropolis, Mb, Minion, Hovel: Play Nec, Mb, Minion (discard), make opponent draw the Curse, fun times.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2016, 06:00:42 am »
+2

Shelters: Baker + Borrow for $7.

T1: Open Stonemason, Mountebank, Minion
T2: Necropolis, Mb, Minion, Hovel: Play Nec, Mb, Minion (discard), make opponent draw the Curse, fun times.

Am I missing something? Shouldnt your second turn not be OG, Necro, Hovel, Copper?
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Davio

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2016, 09:40:46 am »
+6

Hmm, my evil plot was thwarted by the fact Stonemason and Travelling Fair are not the same.

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2016, 09:41:43 am »
+5

Hmm, my evil plot was thwarted by the fact Stonemason and Travelling Fair are not the same.

Happens to Bond villains all the time.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2016, 09:45:57 am »
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If you're playing with fan cards Ascetic/Mint is always a quality option!
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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2016, 12:35:24 pm »
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A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.
Summoning a Sea Hag Turn 1 as first player will cause your opponent to have their Turn 2 buy miss the reshuffle under typical circumstances (you know, like no Travelling Fair topdecking and whatnot), while stuffing your opponent's Turn 3 hand with a Curse. Harsh stuff.
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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2016, 02:04:32 pm »
+1

I opened Swindler/Urchin once.  Swindled the other player's Mercenary.  It was nice.  I think I still lost that game, though.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2016, 09:56:27 pm »
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I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.
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liopoil

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2016, 10:38:50 pm »
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If we get to choose our shuffle luck in the cleanup-phase of turn 2 as well, then yeah we can easily guarrantee the win on T3 as player 1.
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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2016, 11:08:43 pm »
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I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?
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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2016, 06:08:33 am »
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Nomad camp/Watchtower/Hamlet

Turn 3 hamlet, discard 2 estates, play nomad camp, play watchtower, draw 6 copper

Turn 4 kicks off with some procession/fortress tricks
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eHalcyon

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2016, 10:49:32 am »
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I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

Refer to CelestialChameleon's puzzle.

But I don't think that works for the question at hand, since it involves a lot more than just the opening.  You need to specify most (maybe all) of the kingdom cards, so it's not very generalizable.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2016, 10:54:22 am »
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I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

Refer to CelestialChameleon's puzzle.

But I don't think that works for the question at hand, since it involves a lot more than just the opening.  You need to specify most (maybe all) of the kingdom cards, so it's not very generalizable.

My counterpoint would be that all of these 'ideal openings' specify at least a few (2 or 3 cards, maybe 1 or 2 events) things themselves. I am only ever so slightly pushing this concept into 'determine all cards, the entire black market deck and shuffle luck'. A difference in degree, really. ;)
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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2016, 11:21:57 am »
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Best: Rebuild/something with Alms?

It's sad but it might be good.
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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2016, 12:06:54 pm »
+2

My vote goes to Inheritance on Tournament/Province opening.

Needs 5/2 with Baker and Borrow. It's pretty likely to get a prize on T4 or T5 which is kinda cool on a lot of boards. Especially since Followers gains you Tournaments in this case :)

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luser

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2016, 02:39:04 pm »
+2

My vote goes to Inheritance on Tournament/Province opening.

Needs 5/2 with Baker and Borrow. It's pretty likely to get a prize on T4 or T5 which is kinda cool on a lot of boards. Especially since Followers gains you Tournaments in this case :)

Ok, fixed my previous idea, inheriting ironworks looks best especially with great cards like ferry, wharf, crossroads, great hall and scout.
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eHalcyon

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2016, 09:08:47 pm »
+1

I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

Refer to CelestialChameleon's puzzle.

But I don't think that works for the question at hand, since it involves a lot more than just the opening.  You need to specify most (maybe all) of the kingdom cards, so it's not very generalizable.

My counterpoint would be that all of these 'ideal openings' specify at least a few (2 or 3 cards, maybe 1 or 2 events) things themselves. I am only ever so slightly pushing this concept into 'determine all cards, the entire black market deck and shuffle luck'. A difference in degree, really. ;)

Yeah, but I think the degree is important.  If you're laying out out the entire kingdom, then you're no longer providing the "best opening" but just analysing a specific kingdom.

Another way to put it is that I think the "best opening" should only be concerned with the opening.  So in this case, the opening is Nomad Camp/Watchtower/Hamlet.  We know that this is killer for one very specific scenario, but how is it in general, where the other 7 cards are unspecified and your luck isn't guaranteed to be perfect?  I'd guess that it is not so great.
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liopoil

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2016, 09:54:29 pm »
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This is the best opening. Okay, it used three players, fine. We'll need some very specific and restrictive rules to make the answer something which could be stated in one sentence.
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jomini

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Re: New Best & Worst Openings?
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2016, 12:55:02 pm »
+2

 

I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

Refer to CelestialChameleon's puzzle.

But I don't think that works for the question at hand, since it involves a lot more than just the opening.  You need to specify most (maybe all) of the kingdom cards, so it's not very generalizable.

My counterpoint would be that all of these 'ideal openings' specify at least a few (2 or 3 cards, maybe 1 or 2 events) things themselves. I am only ever so slightly pushing this concept into 'determine all cards, the entire black market deck and shuffle luck'. A difference in degree, really. ;)

Yeah, but I think the degree is important.  If you're laying out out the entire kingdom, then you're no longer providing the "best opening" but just analysing a specific kingdom.

Another way to put it is that I think the "best opening" should only be concerned with the opening.  So in this case, the opening is Nomad Camp/Watchtower/Hamlet.  We know that this is killer for one very specific scenario, but how is it in general, where the other 7 cards are unspecified and your luck isn't guaranteed to be perfect?  I'd guess that it is not so great.

Exactly how crazy do we want things to go? Specifying just 2.5 cards and having free reign on events gets me a lot of craziness.

Opening with:
T1: Save (anything)
T2: Baker/Borrow: Tfair, Quest (gain Gold), Alms (Develop)


T3: Dev (trash Gold, gain Kc/power $5)

You can literally gain all cards by the end of T5 with worst possible shuffle luck on the right board. Even without going that far, you can manage some pretty insane things without having to rely on low odds shuffles. Dumping 12 cards of opponent Junk (Kc/Mountebank), buying a $15 Doc (Kc/Bom/Death cart), drawing deck & Inheriting a cantrip or picking up multiple engine components (Margrave, Council room, etc.), drawing deck and trashing an Estate (Kc/Stables).

There are also a lot of setups where this is insanely powerful without a different $7 - Gov/Forge; Hparty/Expand, and maybe even Venture/Bank on a colony board.


In terms of a simple opening, I think the the best might be something like Hermit x3/Madman:
T1: Summon Hermit
T2: Trash Hov, Gain Herm, trash Herm; Alms for a Herm

When you want to mass Hermits, it is normally an excruciatingly powerful combo (MarketSquare, but also Csmith, Goons w/o other villages, Hop & a cheap way to get them, Secret chamber & +buys, Artificer) that poor players would never manage and be dominating when it is worth it to tank your deck to win the Hermit (Madman) split.

In terms of versatility something like
T1: Expedition (Use Baker coin)
T2: Mint, Tfair, Alms (Remake)

This gives you a 5 card hand with a power TfB. You get to Kc/$4 in 2 turns or you can just pound treasures & BM starting on T4.
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