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[Seprix]

"The best way to garden is to put on a wide-brimmed straw hat and some old clothes.  And with a hoe in one hand and a cold drink in the other, tell somebody else where to dig."
                                            -Texas Bix Bender, Don't Throw in the Trowel

-Best times to get Gardens?
-Any new enablers for Gardens in Adventures?
-Is Gardens the best Alt-VP in the game, pound for pound?
-Is Gardens weaker or stronger in today's meta?

[Seprix]

To kickstart the Adventures discussion, there are a chock full of new events that potentially shape Gardens games. Alms is a free Gardens guaranteed a turn, and Seaway provides more buying power. Mission is just insane for Rush Gardens, making hitting $4 even more crucial to secure a win. Heck, even Ferry could be worth it to buy up all those delicious Hamlets for even more buys.

[mameluke]

I'm sort of sad that the more cards we have, the less chance Gardens shows up. It's a unique card that changes the way the game is played.

[Seprix]

I'm sort of sad that the more cards we have, the less chance Gardens shows up. It's a unique card that changes the way the game is played.

This is true of all cards.

Doesn't Silk Road seem to be a crappy version of Gardens? Yeah, yeah, it can score more points in the long run. But I guess that's a discussion for much later.

[werothegreat]

Mission is just insane for Rush Gardens

Only with a Workshop/Gardens variant, not a Woodcutter/Gardens variant.

[Titandrake]

I'm sort of sad that the more cards we have, the less chance Gardens shows up. It's a unique card that changes the way the game is played.

This is true of all cards.

Doesn't Silk Road seem to be a crappy version of Gardens? Yeah, yeah, it can score more points in the long run. But I guess that's a discussion for much later.

Silk Road is a much better alt-VP card for engines. Not as good as Fairgrounds, but it can certainly be enough to sway things in endgame.

[mameluke]

I'm sort of sad that the more cards we have, the less chance Gardens shows up. It's a unique card that changes the way the game is played.

This is true of all cards.

Well, it's definitely true of all cards, but, say, there are a lot of villages and there will be a lot more. They're all a little different but they're all still villages. Most of the Alt-VP cards play very different from each other, and there definitely is no other card in Dominion that says, hey, use all of your buys and gains. Vineyards is similar in many respects but its cost makes it play quite a bit differently. Gardens is a big part of the base set -- there are a lot of enablers that have come out since then, but Gardens itself doesn't come up all that often anymore.

[Davio]

I like how adding a card like this can open up more possible strategies and create asynchronous games where one player tries to rush Gardens and the other tries to scrape together enough Provinces to overtake him. Sometimes, the Province player overtakes the Gardens player at which point the game becomes a slog where the Gardens player has to switch from trying to end the game into making it last longer. Now the Province player is the one rushing. Fun times.

I like the added possibilities, but sometimes, it's just a glorified Duchy.

[amoffett11]

If I was only allowed to put one card from Base into my randomizer deck with the cards from all the other expansions, it would probably be Gardens.  Any time it appears on a board, before you begin you need to stop and consider "Is Gardens a possibility?".  Sometimes it's not, and you move on, sometimes you go for it.  It's a bigger game changer and adds more variety than any other Base Card. 

Oh wait, I forgot about Chapel.  OK, I'm taking two Base Cards.  Chapel and Gardens. 

[Aleimon Thimble]

If I was only allowed to put one card from Base into my randomizer deck with the cards from all the other expansions, it would probably be Gardens.  Any time it appears on a board, before you begin you need to stop and consider "Is Gardens a possibility?".  Sometimes it's not, and you move on, sometimes you go for it.  It's a bigger game changer and adds more variety than any other Base Card. 

Oh wait, I forgot about Chapel.  OK, I'm taking two Base Cards.  Chapel and Gardens.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. All these other things - Villages and draw and +Buy and Remodelers and discard attacks and junking attacks and deck inspectors and Silver gainers - are in  expansions as well. Gardens is really one of a kind. Chapel too, to some extent - there are other strong trashers, but they're usually not as game-changing as Chapel.

[jsh357]

Gardens feels a lot more limited to me than most alternate victory strategies, but sometimes making a bloated deck that can barely do anything is fun. Most good strategies are fast enough to outpace a gardens strategy, but when it's good it's interesting. I definitely think it's better the card exists.

[jamfamsam]

I think Vineyards is the most power Alt VP in the game.

[Seprix]

I think Vineyards is the most power Alt VP in the game.

I agree.

[Chris is me]

I think Vineyards is the most power Alt VP in the game.

Clearly we need an Alt-VP bracket to discuss these and break them down.

Not kidding.

[Seprix]

I think Vineyards is the most power Alt VP in the game.

Clearly we need an Alt-VP bracket to discuss these and break them down.

Not kidding.

You or me make it. You decide.

[Moneymodel]

I think Vineyards is the most power Alt VP in the game.

Clearly we need an Alt-VP bracket to discuss these and break them down.

Not kidding.

I wonder what that would look like. Should it include VP chip cards? Should it be reduced to "cards that let you ignore Provinces"?

[Seprix]

I think Vineyards is the most power Alt VP in the game.

Clearly we need an Alt-VP bracket to discuss these and break them down.

Not kidding.

I wonder what that would look like. Should it include VP chip cards? Should it be reduced to "cards that let you ignore Provinces"?

Goons, Bishop, Monument discussed? Interesting.