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[werothegreat]

So we've gotten through all the individual cards!  And the set is currently in a beta of sorts on Dominion Online, and should release soon.  With that in mind:

-How does this set compare to other sets?
-What are your favorite cards?
-Which cards will impact games the most?

[papadjango]

For me it's the best expansion, even in front of the beloved "seasides".
I really like to play giant and wine merchant, still don't know what to do with messenger.
And clever use of events often made the game. Inheritage for instance is great and really a new trick.
The greatest impact in our plays had the Champion-card. Who got it first, won. Despite the teacher, (the other final traveller) which alwas seems much too slow to have an impact on the game.

[J Reggie]

One thing I've noticed from watching the beta online is that Adventures really adds a lot more decisions to the start of your turn. So now, what order you call your reserves and resolve your durations in really matters, which will take people a while to get used to. I hadn't really noticed this IRL, because I'm always choosing what order I do things in, even if it's something like "do I draw my Wharf cards or my Caravan card first?" But now there are things like Guide and Amulet, where the order you do things in affects your turn later. So all in all, I think I've learned that Adventures breaks more from the traditional "ABC" of Dominion more than I thought.

[Davio]

More so than new cards, this set offers new mechanics.

And I do love new mechanics. Indeed, the set offers a lot of choice and as we say in capitalism: More choice = more freedom!

[Haddock]

Adventures is awesome.  I'm just sad that my gaming group don't play Dominion with me as much any more because I haven't yet had a chance to play enough Adventures to satisfy me.

[Seprix]

Dark Ages is still easily my favorite set, but Adventures is a lot of fun, and it will take a long time to redefine 'optimal' plays for Adventures cards and events in tandem with the older cards. Borrow is a game changer in itself, events are a game changer, Haunted Woods is a great draw card and attack, etc. Apparently, Treasure Trove is just a complete game changer, so Big Money even gets a nice competitive boost.

[Eran of Arcadia]

So all in all, I think I've learned that Adventures breaks more from the traditional "ABC" of Dominion more than I thought.

Any time I teach someone Dominion I explain, "for every rule I teach you there's at least one card that breaks it." Now with Adventures it's basically "SABC" for turn order.

[Kirian]

So all in all, I think I've learned that Adventures breaks more from the traditional "ABC" of Dominion more than I thought.

Any time I teach someone Dominion I explain, "for every rule I teach you there's at least one card that breaks it." Now with Adventures it's basically "SABC" for turn order.

S?

[Awaclus]

So all in all, I think I've learned that Adventures breaks more from the traditional "ABC" of Dominion more than I thought.

Any time I teach someone Dominion I explain, "for every rule I teach you there's at least one card that breaks it." Now with Adventures it's basically "SABC" for turn order.

S?

Presumably Start of your turn.

[Beyond Awesome]

Adventures is by far my favorite expansion. I will admit I was not a fan of DA at first. It grew on me. I do like the combos that expansion offered but a lot of cards seemed mediocre or weird. For instance Death Cart and Poor House are rarely viable. Mystic is okay, but not great. Pillage is often not all that great. You then have cards like Cultist.

Now, with Adventures we have cards that really warp the game, but in a more positive way that adds a lot more decision making. This expansion is pretty complex and on top of that adds more cards than any set in history before it, so figuring it out is a challenge. Page and Peasant change the game so much. Also, many of the Events are pretty game breaking. I just played a game on the Development Build where Pathfinding and Training were available and the best target was Vagrant. I literally won the game playing a bunch of Vagrants each turn.

It should also be noted that events make strong cards stronger, but as mentioned above, even weak cards can become strong all of sudden. It should also be of note that the set has very little duds, even the weak cards aren't all that weak. I think the only two cards I don't give too much thought about are Miser and Messenger. And, hey, on some boards you need some sort of trashing or +Buy. Although, Messenger does also add a small amount of pile control.

Overall, Adventures changes the game, dramatically...much more so than DA. This is not really a strike against it. More combos are possible, and now, there are so many decisions. Just adding two events offers a lot more choices. Then, add a Peasant or a Page line and now you're asking yourself "do I open this or get a second trasher?" Though choices arise in Adventures heavy games and then you have Reserves and then you have to ask when it is the right time to call stuff back into play.

For people who don't like to think as much while playing Dominion, this set might be too much. For people who wanted a more complex version of Dominion, Adventures is the set for you.

And, to think, Empires is just around the corner...at least irl.

[Witherweaver]

Adventures is by far my favorite expansion.

Would you say it is awesome?  Or is it ..... beyond awesome?

[Beyond Awesome]

Adventures is by far my favorite expansion.

Would you say it is awesome?  Or is it ..... beyond awesome?

Definitely beyond awesome.

[Marcory]

So its . . . awe-all instead of awe-some?

[Seprix]

Pillage is often not all that great.

I disagree. If you can play a Pillage a turn, your opponent is going to straight out get wrecked. Losing a single card a turn that you get to pick is just so devastating.

[Beyond Awesome]

Pillage is often not all that great.

I disagree. If you can play a Pillage a turn, your opponent is going to straight out get wrecked. Losing a single card a turn that you get to pick is just so devastating.

I said it is often not that great. Usually, it's pretty hard to play Pillage every turn.

[Awaclus]

Pillage is often not all that great.

I disagree. If you can play a Pillage a turn, your opponent is going to straight out get wrecked. Losing a single card a turn that you get to pick is just so devastating.

I said it is often not that great. Usually, it's pretty hard to play Pillage every turn.

Well, it's not so hard to play a Pillage every turn. It's just not worth it very often, because it costs a +buy and those are often pretty limited and also needed for other things.

[Axxle]

So its . . . awe-all instead of awe-some?

That was awe-full

[Marcory]

So its . . . awe-all instead of awe-some?

That was awe-full

Awe, you didn't like my joke? 

[arcee]

Least favourite set by far, it just isn't Dominion to me.  One reason (among many, to be fair) I haven't bought anything on Dominion Online is probably having to play with Adventures when it comes out.

[Fragasnap]

I don't like Adventures.

Far too many cards have arbitrarily large effects to ensure that they get used (+3 Cards, +$3 on Haunted Woods\Swamp Hag; gain Gold with Treasure Trove which is itself a Silver; just Gear; trash multiple cards with Warrior; Distant Lands doesn't occupy space in your deck and is worth 4VP; Duplicate copies cards costing up to $6, often acting similarly to Distant Lands in its ability to gain Duchies). The vanilla bonus tokens were a terrible idea that commonly homogenize strategy by encouraging players to piledrive whatever they Train\Lost Art\Pathfind--as though Dominion didn't already have some issues with monolithic card strategies.

I don't believe that many cards are necessarily ridiculous (only the Page line and Gear are stupid), but I feel like a lot of subtlety is lost in Adventures.

[Awaclus]

I don't like Adventures.

Far too many cards have arbitrarily large effects to ensure that they get used (+3 Cards, +$3 on Haunted Woods\Swamp Hag; gain Gold with Treasure Trove which is itself a Silver; just Gear; trash multiple cards with Warrior; Distant Lands doesn't occupy space in your deck and is worth 4VP; Duplicate copies cards costing up to $6, often acting similarly to Distant Lands in its ability to gain Duchies). The vanilla bonus tokens were a terrible idea that commonly homogenize strategy by encouraging players to piledrive whatever they Train\Lost Art\Pathfind--as though Dominion didn't already have some issues with monolithic card strategies.

I don't believe that many cards are necessarily ridiculous (only the Page line and Gear are stupid), but I feel like a lot of subtlety is lost in Adventures.

Does Smithy also have an arbitrarily large effect to ensure that it gets used?

[werothegreat]

I don't like Adventures.

Far too many cards have arbitrarily large effects to ensure that they get used (+3 Cards, +$3 on Haunted Woods\Swamp Hag; gain Gold with Treasure Trove which is itself a Silver; just Gear; trash multiple cards with Warrior; Distant Lands doesn't occupy space in your deck and is worth 4VP; Duplicate copies cards costing up to $6, often acting similarly to Distant Lands in its ability to gain Duchies). The vanilla bonus tokens were a terrible idea that commonly homogenize strategy by encouraging players to piledrive whatever they Train\Lost Art\Pathfind--as though Dominion didn't already have some issues with monolithic card strategies.

I don't believe that many cards are necessarily ridiculous (only the Page line and Gear are stupid), but I feel like a lot of subtlety is lost in Adventures.

Arbitrarily large to ensure they get used?  Dude, that's the whole point of card testing and balancing.  Haunted Woods and Swamp Hag have such large bonuses on your next turn because they do nothing on the turn they are played, which some players think actually makes them weaker than you seem to be suggesting.  The whole POINT of Treasure Trove is to just flood your deck with Treasures - the decision to have you gain a Gold and a Copper doesn't seem arbitrary at all.  Distant Lands only gives you points if you actually manage to play it, which makes it worse than a Duchy to buy on your last turn.  Duplicate is able to gain more expensive cards because it's a) slower than other gainers and b) requires that you actually have the funds to buy the card you'd be gaining in the first place.  And the bonus tokens actually make less-used cards, such as cheap cantrips, more viable, which actually adds variety to strategies.  The only thing I can agree with is Warrior - I really don't understand why there's a "for each Traveller you have in play" clause there.

[Accatitippi]

My impression is that Adventures suffers of power creep about to the same degree as Seaside. The set has very few situational cards, and many Kingdom-definers. The good thing is that most of Adventures' powerhouses leave a lot of space to build different decks, since they are either very non-terminal (Treasure Trove, some reserves); or they do only one thing, albeit very well (Champion, token events).
With the possible exception of Gear-BM, I don't really see a problem with the power of Adventures cards, since they are no Cultists, and everybody loves their Wharf.

[Awaclus]

My impression is that Adventures suffers of power creep about to the same degree as Seaside. The set has very few situational cards, and many Kingdom-definers. The good thing is that most of Adventures' powerhouses leave a lot of space to build different decks, since they are either very non-terminal (Treasure Trove, some reserves); or they do only one thing, albeit very well (Champion, token events).
With the possible exception of Gear-BM, I don't really see a problem with the power of Adventures cards, since they are no Cultists, and everybody loves their Wharf.

I don't think that power creep is a thing in Dominion. Even if cards get more powerful over time, it's not inherently an issue because you don't have to buy the latest expansion just so that you can be competitive against your opponent who has it.

[Mavy2k]

I very much like the cards in the set. Most of them bring several interesting strategies to the game.

But I am not a big fan of all these tokens. I think its too much of them. Would have been nice if they were easier distinguishable from each other and made of metal or plastic. I like the metal tokens from previous sets. I know that cardboard is much cheaper, but I would have gladly paid a few bucks more for quality tokens.

[Accatitippi]

My impression is that Adventures suffers of power creep about to the same degree as Seaside. The set has very few situational cards, and many Kingdom-definers. The good thing is that most of Adventures' powerhouses leave a lot of space to build different decks, since they are either very non-terminal (Treasure Trove, some reserves); or they do only one thing, albeit very well (Champion, token events).
With the possible exception of Gear-BM, I don't really see a problem with the power of Adventures cards, since they are no Cultists, and everybody loves their Wharf.

I don't think that power creep is a thing in Dominion. Even if cards get more powerful over time, it's not inherently an issue because you don't have to buy the latest expansion just so that you can be competitive against your opponent who has it.

I used power creep to name the phenomenon of cards getting more powerful over time. I'm afraid the term might have brought with it some connotations from CCGs, but I was not referring to that. (economics and having to spend money to stay competitive)

[Seprix]

My impression is that Adventures suffers of power creep about to the same degree as Seaside. The set has very few situational cards, and many Kingdom-definers. The good thing is that most of Adventures' powerhouses leave a lot of space to build different decks, since they are either very non-terminal (Treasure Trove, some reserves); or they do only one thing, albeit very well (Champion, token events).
With the possible exception of Gear-BM, I don't really see a problem with the power of Adventures cards, since they are no Cultists, and everybody loves their Wharf.

I don't think that power creep is a thing in Dominion. Even if cards get more powerful over time, it's not inherently an issue because you don't have to buy the latest expansion just so that you can be competitive against your opponent who has it.

I used power creep to name the phenomenon of cards getting more powerful over time. I'm afraid the term might have brought with it some connotations from CCGs, but I was not referring to that. (economics and having to spend money to stay competitive)

We don't know how powerful the cards are yet, wait until widespread play. But to me, it seems the cards are all very well balanced. Scout's always been obsolete, but certain cards will always be better or worse in decks. Wharf is garbage in a game with Ironworks/Gardens/Silk Road, for example.

Scout's actually really legit with Adventures now. Just give Scout a card draw, it's a cheap Cartographer, but better.

[Witherweaver]

My impression is that Adventures suffers of power creep about to the same degree as Seaside. The set has very few situational cards, and many Kingdom-definers. The good thing is that most of Adventures' powerhouses leave a lot of space to build different decks, since they are either very non-terminal (Treasure Trove, some reserves); or they do only one thing, albeit very well (Champion, token events).
With the possible exception of Gear-BM, I don't really see a problem with the power of Adventures cards, since they are no Cultists, and everybody loves their Wharf.

I don't think that power creep is a thing in Dominion. Even if cards get more powerful over time, it's not inherently an issue because you don't have to buy the latest expansion just so that you can be competitive against your opponent who has it.

I used power creep to name the phenomenon of cards getting more powerful over time. I'm afraid the term might have brought with it some connotations from CCGs, but I was not referring to that. (economics and having to spend money to stay competitive)

We don't know how powerful the cards are yet, wait until widespread play. But to me, it seems the cards are all very well balanced. Scout's always been obsolete, but certain cards will always be better or worse in decks. Wharf is garbage in a game with Ironworks/Gardens/Silk Road, for example.

Scout's actually really legit with Adventures now. Just give Scout a card draw, it's a cheap Cartographer, but better.

It'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

[Awaclus]

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

[Witherweaver]

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

[ThetaSigma12]

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

Intresting way to type a conditional...

[Awaclus]

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

The majority of the joke consisted of pointing out the typo, though.

[Witherweaver]

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

The majority of the joke consisted of pointing out the typo, though.

Still, it should have gone, "So if you're not cool then Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?"

[convolucid]

Adventures contains some of my very favorite cards, and also a few of my least favorite. I think that's to be expected given the extreme complexity of the set.

I've posted my opinion about Page before; I think it is the worst card in the game, with poor design and high impact. My IRL group gave it about 5 tries and everyone hated those games. So we banned Page, and that's the nice thing about IRL - problem solved, there are still lots of other cards to enjoy!

There are some other cards that I've started to dislike more subtly. Swamp Hag comes to mind: it's a cool concept, and there are lots of cards that work around it, but sometimes you don't get any counters and then you're in for a slow, swingy, boring game where everyone skips half their turns.

But then there's the good, and boy howdy is there a lot of it! Artificer, Teacher, every single pile-modifier, all three Journey cards, every Reserve card, Magpie, Storyteller... I love 'em all! These cards are unique, nuanced, and just plain fun! What more can I say?

Adventures cards often lead to feast-or-famine gameplay. It is a "crazy combos" set, like Dark Ages but kinder. This can lead to some frustrating games, but more often it lets players get really experimental with off-the-wall, powerful tactics. The high moments are stratospheric, and overall I think it's an excellent, game-changing expansion. Just don't include it when teaching newcomers!

[Fragasnap]

I don't like Adventures.

Far too many cards have arbitrarily large effects to ensure that they get used.

Arbitrarily large to ensure they get used?  Dude, that's the whole point of card testing and balancing.        The only thing I can agree with is Warrior - I really don't understand why there's a "for each Traveller you have in play" clause there.

The problem is power creep. When Adventures cards appear, I don't care about any of the other sets' cards.

Haunted Woods and Swamp Hag have such large bonuses on your next turn because they do nothing on the turn they are played, which some players think actually makes them weaker than you seem to be suggesting.

I don't think either of these cards are problems, just indicative of the power creep. Compare Tactician, which has you in the majority of cases lose your turn. +3 Cards is seriously close enough, but +3 Cards is necessary or else Haunted Woods would just be the crappy Wharf. (Swamp Hag is actually pretty weak, and oddly turns the player advantage on its head)

The whole POINT of Treasure Trove is to just flood your deck with Treasures - the decision to have you gain a Gold and a Copper doesn't seem arbitrary at all.

If you aren't relying upon certain cards to collide (like Smithy\Village if you're trying to draw your deck), Treasure Trove is stupidly good. I've bought it on most boards it appears upon (the only one I can immediately think of where I didn't buy it was a board with Fool's Gold). Compare Treasure Trove to cards like Market Square or Tunnel which require you to line up cards to get the Gold, or in the case of Soothsayer or either of the two aforementioned cards, Treasure Trove is actually good the turn you get the Gold in addition to gaining Gold.

Distant Lands only gives you points if you actually manage to play it, which makes it worse than a Duchy to buy on your last turn.

When you hit $5 after your second shuffle it is likely time to start buying Distant Lands. With 3 Distant Lands on your Tavern Mat (not even in your deck) you have 2 Provinces, so unless the tiny bit of momentum you lose by picking up Distant Lands let another player buy 6 Provinces you are in a wildly better place than a player ignoring Distant Lands. Compare to Island, which is worth a third of a Province rather than two thirds, in a game where one point can make a huge difference.

Duplicate is able to gain more expensive cards because it's a) slower than other gainers and b) requires that you actually have the funds to buy the card you'd be gaining in the first place.

Except that Duplicate can duplicate duplicated cards which is just silly. There is no better Duchy gainer in Dominion than Duplicate. Having 2 Duplicates on your Tavern mat lets you gain 9VP from a single Duchy purchase, allowing you to effectively have those points without dealing with them in your deck.

And the bonus tokens actually make less-used cards, such as cheap cantrips, more viable, which actually adds variety to strategies.

Except that the bonus tokens often make cards like Pearl Diver and Pawn so incredibly strong that there is no longer anything else to do on the board, thus reducing strategies.\

Only Page and Gear I think are problems that might be worth banning, but on boards with Adventures cards I find myself not buying cards from other sets because the cards from Adventures are just so good in comparison to everything else.

[faust]

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

The majority of the joke consisted of pointing out the typo, though.

Still, it should have gone, "So if you're not cool then Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?"

Or simply "So Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?"

[jsh357]

I deleted a long post meticulously criticizing the entire previous post, but realized it felt kind of mean. I'll settle on just: your issues are likely stemming in large part from the cards being new. You claim your group 'always' goes for the Adventures cards, as if there are no possible ways to play around them. This perception is going to be common until the cards become more uniformly distributed with the rest and the novelty has worn off on them some. Of course your group is buying the cards; they're new, you're probably playing with a higher saturation of Adventures than you would once everything was in full random selection, and you haven't developed the same understanding you likely have of past cards. That's not to say certain cards aren't very powerful, (though I personally think it's hilarious how much people overvalue Gear) but that's not exactly a new thing. Remember when Witch was considered one of the strongest cards with few real counters? People play, people adapt. You are of course within your rights to dislike the expansion for whatever reasons, but I don't trust your claims about power creep on an objective sense.

Oh... and I guess I haven't replied to any of these threads, but I was more interested in what other people had to say than my own thoughts. I guess a quick summary would be: it's more Dominion, and I like all the Dominion expansions. I wouldn't say it's my favorite set (that's Cornucopia or Alchemy) but I like what it brings to the table. Sometimes it makes my brain hurt a little too much, but like I was saying to that guy up there, I have played a LOT of games with heavy Adventures saturation, and the cards are more complex on average, so that makes sense.

[werothegreat]

I wouldn't say it's my favorite set (that's Cornucopia or Alchemy)

Really?  That's not something you hear every day.

[Witherweaver]

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

The majority of the joke consisted of pointing out the typo, though.

Still, it should have gone, "So if you're not cool then Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?"

Or simply "So Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?"

Zing!

[Witherweaver]

Wait there is actually  a +1 Card token, right?

[GendoIkari]

Wait there is actually  a +1 Card token, right?

See, I didn't quite get your original joke, because Seprix was specifically talking about how with Adventures, you could add the +1 card token to Scout.

Of course what he's missing is that that doesn't make Scout more powerful relative to any other cards, because that +1 card token could have gone on better cards instead.

[Witherweaver]

Wait there is actually  a +1 Card token, right?

See, I didn't quite get your original joke, because Seprix was specifically talking about how with Adventures, you could add the +1 card token to Scout.

Of course what he's missing is that that doesn't make Scout more powerful relative to any other cards, because that +1 card token could have gone on better cards instead.

Oh, I misread Seprix's post to mean, redesign Scout so that it has +1 Draw.  I didn't realize he was referring to Adventures.

This was a failure on many levels.

[pacovf]

I suggest you change your name and move to the other coast, rather than try to face the embarrassment.

[Witherweaver]

I suggest you change your name and move to the other coast, rather than try to face the embarrassment.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I want to address power creep. I think for the purposes of Dominion power creep can be defined by how often a card is bought and defines a kingdom. For example, Goons is a very powerful card. You buy it almost every game it appears in.

I also think Qvist's rankings is a good way of looking at how powerful an expansion is overall. Obviously, the rankings for Adventures will change a lot next year. But, with that said, Chapel is obviously the best trasher. Mountebank is the best junker. Cultist is close though. Ambassador is the best $3 cost.

Someone said that Adventures increases the power level the same way Seaside did. I think perhaps Events might make this somewhat true. Attack-wise, though, I would say if anything, this set is a decrease power-wise. The attacks are decent, but we have seen nastier stuff. The trashing is good, but, DA offers strong trashing as well and Chapel is still the king of trashing. One area, I do feel Adventures increases the power level is Villages. Overall, Villages are often needed to make engines come to life and with Adventures, I feel, we get the strongest Village ever in Lost Arts. Champion is obviously stronger, but takes a while to get going. We also have Coin of the Realm, a village that we can use when we need it, and hey, it's technically two villages when you call it into play. We have had strong villages in the past with Fishing Village and Wandering Minstrel. Lost Arts is simply better than them. And, once you get Champion going, well, boom. Also, Disciple and Teacher are pretty nice villages as well.

Card draw is also pretty good in this expansion, but not super common. Pathfinding can be the king of card draw if you have a good target for it. Sometimes, though, you might already be drawing your deck, although, pathfinding a card tends to add more reliability. We also have Haunted Woods. It's strong card draw, but not as strong as Wharf.

I think overall, kingdom-wise, the cards are pretty balanced. We do have two power houses with Page and Peasant. But, I would say more than anything, Events are what shake things up the most. Alms guarantees you always have $4 available. Save can do tricks and then we have the token events that modify piles.

I guess the real question to ask ourselves is what would Dominion be like today if Events had existed since the beginning.

[JW]

I guess the real question to ask ourselves is what would Dominion be like today if Events had existed since the beginning.

Cache would be a $5 event that gained a Gold and two Coppers. And there would be much rejoicing! Or is that just me?

[XerxesPraelor]

I guess the real question to ask ourselves is what would Dominion be like today if Events had existed since the beginning.

Cache would be a $5 event that gained a Gold and two Coppers. And there would be much rejoicing! Or is that just me?

definitely not

[Sciserr]

Having only known the Dominion world for a couple of months, my first impressions of Adventures should be more reliably compared to my first impressions of the other sets. First and foremost, Adventures adds new layers of complexity. F. ex it wasn't until I tried to Royal Carriage a called Duplicate, I truly grasped the meaning of "resolving an action". Nuances like this hadn't crossed my mind prior to buying adventures.

Secondly, Adventures is way more taxing on a player's attention. I can't count the number of times my friends have forgotten to exchange a traveler, call a Transmogrify at the start of their turn or returning their hand post-transaction with Haunted Woods in play. Personally, I love this aspect. Getting your ducks in a row and executing your turn correctly shouldn't be an autopilot process. It is worth mentioning however, that this somewhat complicates the casual experience. Realizing that your opponent forgot to take curses for four consecutive hag turns really diminishes the fun factor for all parties. Save for the few people strongly disincentivised to continue playing Adventures, these issues luckily dwindle rapidly.

Lastly, I wanted to to give a special mention to two particular cards: Treasure Trove and Gear. When both of them are present in an all Adventures kingdom, we have yet declare a non-BM winner. Perhaps easily attributable to our common lack of experience, but maaan I have to say: That province-per-turn guarantee is ludicrous.

[eHalcyon]

Regarding power creep...

I'm not convinced that it's present in Adventures, but even if it is, it's worth noting that a lot it isn't simply power in a vacuum.  What I mean is that a lot of Adventures is about enhancing other cards.  It's a lot like how Chapel is extremely powerful, but Chapel in itself isn't a strategy.  Adventures pushes card interactions and opens up strategic possibilities rather than pushing monolithic approaches.  Pathfinding may be great, but you need to pick a card to give the token.  Champion and Teacher are game-changing, but you need a deck that will get you there quickly, and a plan for what you'll do after.  Duplicate may be a powerful way to gain multiple cards from one buy, including a whole slew of Duchies in the late game, but what are you going to do in the meantime?

[Beyond Awesome]

I find the Duplicating Duchy comment kind of funny when HoP already exists. Sure, it costs one more and can't called on, but it is nonterminal and can even gain Provinces, sometimes all in a single turn.

[Accatitippi]

I find the Duplicating Duchy comment kind of funny when HoP already exists. Sure, it costs one more and can't called on, but it is nonterminal and can even gain Provinces, sometimes all in a single turn.

Artificer also offers card gaining that can scale up to 11 coins. Getting big hands is trivial in some kingdoms. (I don't see multi-province artificer turns being a thing, though, unless Scrying Pool)

[xyz123]

I am looking forward to playing it online as I think there are some concepts that would work better online (namely the various tokens). I have only played with a casual group, but I often seen people forgetting to flip their journey token, remove the -1 whatever token, etc. I think it is the first new Dominion mechanic that had a negative reaction amongst my group. Events though have proved to be very popular. Whenever my group plays Dominion now they always want to add in a couple of events regardless of which sets we are using.

For me the reserve cards have had one of the biggest impacts on the game as with them you have the choice of whether or not to play (call) them this turn or not, which is a completely new decision to make.

[Chris is me]

Let's Discuss "Let's Discuss Adventures"!

Thanks so much to Wero for keeping this up. I initially tried to write a long OP for every card each day but real life quickly got in the way. Wero never missed a beat though and kept things going! Woo!

Being able to go to FDS every day and being able to read at least one new strategy discussion every day was great. I hope we can keep this discussion momentum going into the future. What other ideas do we have to generate regular, recurring discussions?

[J Reggie]

Let's Discuss "Let's Discuss Adventures"!

Thanks so much to Wero for keeping this up. I initially tried to write a long OP for every card each day but real life quickly got in the way. Wero never missed a beat though and kept things going! Woo!

Being able to go to FDS every day and being able to read at least one new strategy discussion every day was great. I hope we can keep this discussion momentum going into the future. What other ideas do we have to generate regular, recurring discussions?

I think it might be cool to periodically necro these threads as people get more experience with Adventures online. Other than that, we have a whole lot of discussion on the horizon with Empires. I'm also thinking it'd be cool to start some discussion on certain deck types or types of combos, which I might do in the near future. I've also really enjoyed these threads, so I can second in thanking everyone who led them. And as far as I'm aware, these came out of one of the big forum arguments (the King's Court one)? Just goes to show that everything really can have an upside.

[Awaclus]

Let's Discuss "Let's Discuss Adventures"!

Thanks so much to Wero for keeping this up. I initially tried to write a long OP for every card each day but real life quickly got in the way. Wero never missed a beat though and kept things going! Woo!

Being able to go to FDS every day and being able to read at least one new strategy discussion every day was great. I hope we can keep this discussion momentum going into the future. What other ideas do we have to generate regular, recurring discussions?

I think it might be cool to periodically necro these threads as people get more experience with Adventures online. Other than that, we have a whole lot of discussion on the horizon with Empires. I'm also thinking it'd be cool to start some discussion on certain deck types or types of combos, which I might do in the near future. I've also really enjoyed these threads, so I can second in thanking everyone who led them. And as far as I'm aware, these came out of one of the big forum arguments (the King's Court one)? Just goes to show that everything really can have an upside.

Yay, more Necro Wars!

[Burning Skull]

...

Take that 7000-th respect, you scoundrel!

[ConMan]

Let's Discuss "Let's Discuss Adventures"!

Thanks so much to Wero for keeping this up. I initially tried to write a long OP for every card each day but real life quickly got in the way. Wero never missed a beat though and kept things going! Woo!

Being able to go to FDS every day and being able to read at least one new strategy discussion every day was great. I hope we can keep this discussion momentum going into the future. What other ideas do we have to generate regular, recurring discussions?

I would really like to see the community revisit some of the very old articles from the blog and look at how things have changed from both (1) more time playing with the cards, and (2) more cards being available. Stuff like "What tokens enable Philosopher's Stone/Herbalist?" or "How does the strategy on this board change if you add Events A and B?"

[werothegreat]

Let's Discuss "Let's Discuss Adventures"!

Thanks so much to Wero for keeping this up. I initially tried to write a long OP for every card each day but real life quickly got in the way. Wero never missed a beat though and kept things going! Woo!

Being able to go to FDS every day and being able to read at least one new strategy discussion every day was great. I hope we can keep this discussion momentum going into the future. What other ideas do we have to generate regular, recurring discussions?

I would really like to see the community revisit some of the very old articles from the blog and look at how things have changed from both (1) more time playing with the cards, and (2) more cards being available. Stuff like "What tokens enable Philosopher's Stone/Herbalist?" or "How does the strategy on this board change if you add Events A and B?"

Maybe a "Let's Discuss Base Set Cards" series?  And then move on through each expansion?  Maybe jsh can once again offer up his opinions on the art, and maybe actually finish this time.   

[Awaclus]

Why are we having forced discussions? If there's something you actually want to discuss (i.e. either you have something useful to say, or a useful question to ask (and to be very honest, "how does Smithy compare against Count" or "what is the exact number of Libraries you want in every game ever" or "what turn is the best time to buy Remodel" or "how does Village combo with Herbalist" aren't really the kind of questions we need to be asking about the base set right now)), make a thread on that subject or necro an existing one, because that is much more likely to inspire others to have something interesting to say on the subject as well, and you can do it whenever you want instead of waiting for all of the 134 discussions that are scheduled to be had before the discussion about the card you want to discuss. If there isn't anything you really want to discuss, why discuss anything?

[eHalcyon]

Why are we having forced discussions? If there's something you actually want to discuss (i.e. either you have something useful to say, or a useful question to ask (and to be very honest, "how does Smithy compare against Count" or "what is the exact number of Libraries you want in every game ever" or "what turn is the best time to buy Remodel" or "how does Village combo with Herbalist" aren't really the kind of questions we need to be asking about the base set right now)), make a thread on that subject or necro an existing one, because that is much more likely to inspire others to have something interesting to say on the subject as well, and you can do it whenever you want instead of waiting for all of the 134 discussions that are scheduled to be had before the discussion about the card you want to discuss. If there isn't anything you really want to discuss, why discuss anything?

Because of inertia.  If no discussion thread exists, people tend not to start a discussion.  If a discussion thread is made, people become more inclined to contribute and voice their opinion.

[ConMan]

Why are we having forced discussions? If there's something you actually want to discuss (i.e. either you have something useful to say, or a useful question to ask (and to be very honest, "how does Smithy compare against Count" or "what is the exact number of Libraries you want in every game ever" or "what turn is the best time to buy Remodel" or "how does Village combo with Herbalist" aren't really the kind of questions we need to be asking about the base set right now)), make a thread on that subject or necro an existing one, because that is much more likely to inspire others to have something interesting to say on the subject as well, and you can do it whenever you want instead of waiting for all of the 134 discussions that are scheduled to be had before the discussion about the card you want to discuss. If there isn't anything you really want to discuss, why discuss anything?

Because of inertia.  If no discussion thread exists, people tend not to start a discussion.  If a discussion thread is made, people become more inclined to contribute and voice their opinion.

It also stimulates discussion in areas where we might not otherwise go. Like right now, where we're actually discussing Adventurer. When was the last time we had a strategy discussion about that? Maybe some brief mentions as part of covering Qvist rankings or something. Perhaps we will discover an amazing, heretofore unknown combo, or we'll help someone discover a surprising strategy to use in a championship match. Or not, but there's no real loss, and it does mean we keep talking about stuff.

[Witherweaver]

Let's Discuss "Let's Discuss Adventures"!

Thanks so much to Wero for keeping this up. I initially tried to write a long OP for every card each day but real life quickly got in the way. Wero never missed a beat though and kept things going! Woo!

Being able to go to FDS every day and being able to read at least one new strategy discussion every day was great. I hope we can keep this discussion momentum going into the future. What other ideas do we have to generate regular, recurring discussions?

I would really like to see the community revisit some of the very old articles from the blog and look at how things have changed from both (1) more time playing with the cards, and (2) more cards being available. Stuff like "What tokens enable Philosopher's Stone/Herbalist?" or "How does the strategy on this board change if you add Events A and B?"

Maybe a "Let's Discuss Base Set Cards" series?  And then move on through each expansion?  Maybe jsh can once again offer up his opinions on the art, and maybe actually finish this time.   

Let's discuss what we should discuss in "Let's discuss" threads.  Discuss.

[Donald X.]

I don't think there's a power creep issue with Adventures.

Nothing pushes for power creep in Dominion - it won't sell sets, it's not good for the game. Designing cards doesn't entail fighting it. It's something with no reason to have it and I'm not trying to. So there's no reason to expect it and I don't see it.

What power level should cards be? This depends on how fast you want the game to be, and how much luck you want it to have. The more powerful the cards are, the faster the game and the more luck. I aim for a power level that gives a game length and luck amount I like.

Once you've established a good power level, ideally all cards are close to it. If a card is too weak, you don't play with it; if it's too strong, you don't play with other cards.

There are some caveats:
- It's nice once in a while to have an extra-narrow card, so that you can have the joy of winning with a card you usually can't win with. Originally I thought maybe 1 in 25 cards; now I think more like 1 in 100.
- Some cards only compete within their category, or only with certain categories. A strong trasher makes you not buy the weaker trasher, and may shut out a weak card that pushes a non-trashing strategy, but may still leave you interested in a weak card-drawer (that's as good as the table offers).
- Some categories are historically imperfect, in a way that I can't completely fix. I can make new cards weaker but don't want to make new cards that can never compete in those categories.
- Cards can't have identical power levels; something will be the strongest in its category.

The main set and Intrigue both have more duds than later sets; Seaside has more duds than later sets, but not as many as those two. Power creep isn't about the weakest cards though, it's about the strongest cards. These sets have some of the strongest cards in the game.

Events do not have the same power level issues as kingdom cards. They affect game length and luck, and how good the 10 cards are, but strong Events can still leave everything playable. Like, maybe it feels like Alms must be too strong, since you're likely to buy it at some point in any game with it. But it's entirely dependent on the 10 cards; it spices up the game while letting you play with whatever showed up. Ultimately it lets us have a fun game of Dominion, and it's okay that it improves things for everyone. It nudges the game length and luck level but not at the expense of kingdom cards.

So then, when I look through Adventures, I see all these sweet cards, cards which I expect to see a fair amount of play, which are not duds, but which are not the tops in their categories. Swamp Hag isn't the strongest Witch and Ratcatcher isn't the best trasher and so on. If we randomly divided cards up we would expect Adventures to have a few of the strongest cards, and maybe it does, but it's no outlier.

[Davio]

There isn't a power creep, more like a complexity creep.

But this is not a bad thing, because later expansions are mostly bought by experienced players and they do like the added complexity.

[E.Honda]

There isn't a power creep, more like a complexity creep.

But this is not a bad thing, because later expansions are mostly bought by experienced players and they do like the added complexity.

I agree with this. I have only played adventures once irl and apart from that followed the card discussions here and seen a bit of adventures on the developers build on Adams stream. I feel like adventures cards open up a lot of possibilities on every board they are in and that is a good thing

[Awaclus]

Why are we having forced discussions? If there's something you actually want to discuss (i.e. either you have something useful to say, or a useful question to ask (and to be very honest, "how does Smithy compare against Count" or "what is the exact number of Libraries you want in every game ever" or "what turn is the best time to buy Remodel" or "how does Village combo with Herbalist" aren't really the kind of questions we need to be asking about the base set right now)), make a thread on that subject or necro an existing one, because that is much more likely to inspire others to have something interesting to say on the subject as well, and you can do it whenever you want instead of waiting for all of the 134 discussions that are scheduled to be had before the discussion about the card you want to discuss. If there isn't anything you really want to discuss, why discuss anything?

Because of inertia.  If no discussion thread exists, people tend not to start a discussion.  If a discussion thread is made, people become more inclined to contribute and voice their opinion.

Well, that's precisely what I was suggesting. Start a discussion iff you have something to say.

It also stimulates discussion in areas where we might not otherwise go. Like right now, where we're actually discussing Adventurer.

And nobody has said anything useful that we didn't already know.

[LastFootnote]

It also stimulates discussion in areas where we might not otherwise go. Like right now, where we're actually discussing Adventurer.

And nobody has said anything useful that we didn't already know.

And yet, I enjoy reading the threads! I hope they continue.

[AdrianHealey]

Please continue these 'forced'* discussions.

*Whereby forced means: people voluntarily contribute to a topic, opened up by a voluntary topic starter, whereby anyone is free to ignore the topic.

I am new, so I enjoy those discussions, and it helps me gain information that I can feedback to my friends.

[Witherweaver]

Why are we having forced discussions? If there's something you actually want to discuss (i.e. either you have something useful to say, or a useful question to ask (and to be very honest, "how does Smithy compare against Count" or "what is the exact number of Libraries you want in every game ever" or "what turn is the best time to buy Remodel" or "how does Village combo with Herbalist" aren't really the kind of questions we need to be asking about the base set right now)), make a thread on that subject or necro an existing one, because that is much more likely to inspire others to have something interesting to say on the subject as well, and you can do it whenever you want instead of waiting for all of the 134 discussions that are scheduled to be had before the discussion about the card you want to discuss. If there isn't anything you really want to discuss, why discuss anything?

Because of inertia.  If no discussion thread exists, people tend not to start a discussion.  If a discussion thread is made, people become more inclined to contribute and voice their opinion.

Well, that's precisely what I was suggesting. Start a discussion iff you have something to say.

It also stimulates discussion in areas where we might not otherwise go. Like right now, where we're actually discussing Adventurer.

And nobody has said anything useful that we didn't already know.

But I hadn't known that nobody said anything useful.

[Chris is me]

Literally all discussions are "forced". You can't deny that starting these threads has led to useful discussions that wouldn't have happened if they didn't start. I want to talk about Dominion, that's why I log in here. No harm in creating new opportunities to do so.

[Awaclus]

Literally all discussions are "forced". You can't deny that starting these threads has led to useful discussions that wouldn't have happened if they didn't start. I want to talk about Dominion, that's why I log in here. No harm in creating new opportunities to do so.

Well, I can't say for sure, but off the top of my head, I certainly don't remember any useful discussions resulting from these threads. Instead, I remember useful discussions resulting from people asking kingdom-specific questions on the Help board, good players posting interesting games also on the Game Reports board, people posting articles on the Articles board, and occasionally there's something useful on the Dominion General board as well (but that's pretty rare).

You already have infinite opportunities to talk about Dominion simply by logging in.

[Witherweaver]

We just need a [useful] tag to add to the thread title to indicate that the discussion in that thread is useful.

[Chris is me]

Literally all discussions are "forced". You can't deny that starting these threads has led to useful discussions that wouldn't have happened if they didn't start. I want to talk about Dominion, that's why I log in here. No harm in creating new opportunities to do so.

Well, I can't say for sure, but off the top of my head, I certainly don't remember any useful discussions resulting from these threads. Instead, I remember useful discussions resulting from people asking kingdom-specific questions on the Help board, good players posting interesting games also on the Game Reports board, people posting articles on the Articles board, and occasionally there's something useful on the Dominion General board as well (but that's pretty rare).

You already have infinite opportunities to talk about Dominion simply by logging in.

Yeah, and we're using some of those infinite opportunities to talk about specific cards on a regular schedule. How is "let's talk about specific cards" not covered under that umbrella? If you don't like them don't read them. You can't simeltaneously argue that we can discuss dominion as much as we want but that we shouldn't have certain kinds of dominion discussion because they're "forced".

[Infthitbox]

Literally all discussions are "forced". You can't deny that starting these threads has led to useful discussions that wouldn't have happened if they didn't start. I want to talk about Dominion, that's why I log in here. No harm in creating new opportunities to do so.

Well, I can't say for sure, but off the top of my head, I certainly don't remember any useful discussions resulting from these threads.

Well, even if you didn't find them useful, if at least one person found them useful then they'd be worth it. Since there's more than one person defending the usefulness of the discussions, I'd say they fulfilled their purposes.

[Awaclus]

Yeah, and we're using some of those infinite opportunities to talk about specific cards on a regular schedule. How is "let's talk about specific cards" not covered under that umbrella? If you don't like them don't read them. You can't simeltaneously argue that we can discuss dominion as much as we want but that we shouldn't have certain kinds of dominion discussion because they're "forced".

Having discussions on a regular schedule is not discussing Dominion as much as you want. It's discussing Dominion as much as you're obliged. That's why it's forced.

Well, even if you didn't find them useful, if at least one person found them useful then they'd be worth it. Since there's more than one person defending the usefulness of the discussions, I'd say they fulfilled their purposes.

I'm sure there are a lot of people finding alternative medicine useful as well even though I don't personally find it very useful. Those people finding it useful is not proof of it actually being useful in practice, although you could argue that it does mean that alternative medicine fulfills its purpose because people believe in it, depending on what you think is its purpose.

[AdrianHealey]

Awaclus,

I like these threads. I have the feeling I gain benefit from them. If not information, than enjoyment. Do you think I am misguided, as in the case with alternative medicine (where people think there is a causal relationship between 'taking homeopathic stuf' and 'getting cured'), or not?

[Awaclus]

Awaclus,

I like these threads. I have the feeling I gain benefit from them. If not information, than enjoyment. Do you think I am misguided, as in the case with alternative medicine (where people think there is a causal relationship between 'taking homeopathic stuf' and 'getting cured'), or not?

Not in the exact same sense as people who feel like they are physically cured by alternative medicine, but basically yes. I do believe that you could be doing better stuff with your time, both in terms of enjoyment and getting better at Dominion.

[Witherweaver]

Like, for example, go smash your head against the while.  It is, very likely, far more enjoyable than talking with Awaclus.

[Seprix]

Awaclus,

I like these threads. I have the feeling I gain benefit from them. If not information, than enjoyment. Do you think I am misguided, as in the case with alternative medicine (where people think there is a causal relationship between 'taking homeopathic stuf' and 'getting cured'), or not?

Not in the exact same sense as people who feel like they are physically cured by alternative medicine, but basically yes. I do believe that you could be doing better stuff with your time, both in terms of enjoyment and getting better at Dominion.

There is no substitute for simply playing the game, but talking about cards and situations is clearly beneficial to newer players and sometimes even veterans of the game. Just because you've been around the block and clearly know everything there is to know does not means others do. I don't see a reason not to have discussion about older cards at all.

[eHalcyon]

Why are we having forced discussions? If there's something you actually want to discuss (i.e. either you have something useful to say, or a useful question to ask (and to be very honest, "how does Smithy compare against Count" or "what is the exact number of Libraries you want in every game ever" or "what turn is the best time to buy Remodel" or "how does Village combo with Herbalist" aren't really the kind of questions we need to be asking about the base set right now)), make a thread on that subject or necro an existing one, because that is much more likely to inspire others to have something interesting to say on the subject as well, and you can do it whenever you want instead of waiting for all of the 134 discussions that are scheduled to be had before the discussion about the card you want to discuss. If there isn't anything you really want to discuss, why discuss anything?

Because of inertia.  If no discussion thread exists, people tend not to start a discussion.  If a discussion thread is made, people become more inclined to contribute and voice their opinion.

Well, that's precisely what I was suggesting. Start a discussion iff you have something to say.

It also stimulates discussion in areas where we might not otherwise go. Like right now, where we're actually discussing Adventurer.

And nobody has said anything useful that we didn't already know.

You're misreading.  What I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who have something to say that won't start discussions on their own.

Surely you have something better to do with your time than complaining about people talking about Dominion.

[AdrianHealey]

Awaclus,

I like these threads. I have the feeling I gain benefit from them. If not information, than enjoyment. Do you think I am misguided, as in the case with alternative medicine (where people think there is a causal relationship between 'taking homeopathic stuf' and 'getting cured'), or not?

Not in the exact same sense as people who feel like they are physically cured by alternative medicine, but basically yes. I do believe that you could be doing better stuff with your time, both in terms of enjoyment and getting better at Dominion.

 

I mean, the second part is a productivity argument (ends-means). People can very often be wrong about that. But regarding first part - a pure consumption good - it's pretty mind baffling that you take a 'I know better' attitude on that.

[Awaclus]

There is no substitute for simply playing the game, but talking about cards and situations is clearly beneficial to newer players and sometimes even veterans of the game. Just because you've been around the block and clearly know everything there is to know does not means others do. I don't see a reason not to have discussion about older cards at all.

I haven't "been around the block", I'm pretty new here. It doesn't mean I couldn't learn from the old discussions. In fact, that would be a way more efficient way to learn, because when something is being discussed for the 23423409th time, a lot of the people who have already had those 23423408 discussions no longer feel like participating in that discussion, and then you're getting a way worse discussion.

You're misreading.  What I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who have something to say that won't start discussions on their own.

Well, apparently those people still won't say anything if someone else starts the discussion, judging from how largely absent they've been here.

I mean, the second part is a productivity argument (ends-means). People can very often be wrong about that. But regarding first part - a pure consumption good - it's pretty mind baffling that you take a 'I know better' attitude on that.

Why wouldn't I?

[Seprix]

I haven't "been around the block", I'm pretty new here.

> new here
> Registered on December 29, 2012

I'm way newer here than you are.

[eHalcyon]

You're misreading.  What I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who have something to say that won't start discussions on their own.

Well, apparently those people still won't say anything if someone else starts the discussion, judging from how largely absent they've been here.

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

[Awaclus]

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

Yes, to not say anything useful. For instance, just now in the Adventurer thread, I said that Adventurer is useful when you super need more draw for your engine that already has other draw in it. That's pretty old news, I've been saying that for ages. Old news aren't useful.

[Donald X.]

Guys, stop torturing Awaclus. Don't make him say it flat out.

Those threads killed Awaclus's father.

[Donald X.]

There isn't a power creep, more like a complexity creep.

But this is not a bad thing, because later expansions are mostly bought by experienced players and they do like the added complexity.

I agree that there's complexity creep, but not that it's not bad. It's bad. It's just unavoidable. There aren't enough simple things to do.

That later sets have more strategic complexity is good. It's just bad that it's paired with cards that are harder to understand, have more words, require more rulebook space.

Here's one of Mark Rosewater's articles that talks about these things: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/new-world-order-2011-12-02

[werothegreat]

I want a card with so much text you have to make the picture smaller just to keep the font legible.

[LastFootnote]

There isn't a power creep, more like a complexity creep.

But this is not a bad thing, because later expansions are mostly bought by experienced players and they do like the added complexity.

I agree that there's complexity creep, but not that it's not bad. It's bad. It's just unavoidable. There aren't enough simple things to do.

The good news is that, for each step up in complexity, the number of good new cards you can make is an order of magnitude larger than the previous step. Or thereabouts.

[eHalcyon]

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

Yes, to not say anything useful. For instance, just now in the Adventurer thread, I said that Adventurer is useful when you super need more draw for your engine that already has other draw in it. That's pretty old news, I've been saying that for ages. Old news aren't useful.

Maybe it's not useful or enjoyable for you, but that doesn't necessarily apply to others.

Sorry about your father.

[Darth Vader]

Guys, stop torturing Awaclus. Don't make him say it flat out.

Those threads killed Awaclus's father.

But I'm not dead.

[LastFootnote]

There isn't a power creep, more like a complexity creep.

But this is not a bad thing, because later expansions are mostly bought by experienced players and they do like the added complexity.

I agree that there's complexity creep, but not that it's not bad. It's bad. It's just unavoidable. There aren't enough simple things to do.

The good news is that, for each step up in complexity, the number of good new cards you can make is an order of magnitude larger than the previous step. Or thereabouts.

I guess for Dominion this is only partially true. What I was mostly talking about is words; as you allow more words on a card, the number of cards (and good cards) you can make increases uh more than linearly. Let's say quadratically. But really the best type of complexity is adding new mechanics. When you add a new mechanic, the number of interesting cards you could create increases drastically, but in reality is sharply limited by mechanics being partitioned into sets. There are no Potion-cost Duration cards, etc. Not that those two mechanics necessarily interact in an interesting way, but you get the idea.

[Awaclus]

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

Yes, to not say anything useful. For instance, just now in the Adventurer thread, I said that Adventurer is useful when you super need more draw for your engine that already has other draw in it. That's pretty old news, I've been saying that for ages. Old news aren't useful.

Maybe it's not useful or enjoyable for you, but that doesn't necessarily apply to others.

Sorry about your father.

I'm pretty sure it's not useful for anyone, but I guess some are easily entertained.

[markusin]

Whenever I think of cards with complex wording, I immediately think of Butcher. It takes like a minute to figure out that it's a Remodel variant.

[markusin]

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

Yes, to not say anything useful. For instance, just now in the Adventurer thread, I said that Adventurer is useful when you super need more draw for your engine that already has other draw in it. That's pretty old news, I've been saying that for ages. Old news aren't useful.

Maybe it's not useful or enjoyable for you, but that doesn't necessarily apply to others.

Sorry about your father.

I'm pretty sure it's not useful for anyone, but I guess some are easily entertained.

Concerning this topic about Adventures (not to be confused with Adventurer) discussion, I feel like just having the players who have played with the cards inform those that haven't whether they think a card is good or not is insightful enough as a starting point. Kind of like a really premature Qvist Ranking.

Oh wait, we already had one of those that included Adventures.

[Donald X.]

I guess for Dominion this is only partially true. What I was mostly talking about is words; as you allow more words on a card, the number of cards (and good cards) you can make increases uh more than linearly. Let's say quadratically. But really the best type of complexity is adding new mechanics. When you add a new mechanic, the number of interesting cards you could create increases drastically, but in reality is sharply limited by mechanics being partitioned into sets. There are no Potion-cost Duration cards, etc. Not that those two mechanics necessarily interact in an interesting way, but you get the idea.

The text explaining what a card does has to go somewhere. It can be taken off of a card by putting it into the rulebook. The coin tokens are a great example of this. "Take a coin token." So simple!

Hiding the complexity in the rulebook doesn't mean getting rid of it. The actual reduction in complexity is due to doing the same thing over and over on different cards. You have to learn it once, and learn the thing that will identify it, that's an extra thing. But then it can be on eight cards and you only learned two things.

There are a lot of players though who really appreciate not having to look at the rulebook, being able to just play Dominion with random cards and know what they do from the card text. The game gets worse for them with each thing like coin tokens.

[LastFootnote]

I guess for Dominion this is only partially true. What I was mostly talking about is words; as you allow more words on a card, the number of cards (and good cards) you can make increases uh more than linearly. Let's say quadratically. But really the best type of complexity is adding new mechanics. When you add a new mechanic, the number of interesting cards you could create increases drastically, but in reality is sharply limited by mechanics being partitioned into sets. There are no Potion-cost Duration cards, etc. Not that those two mechanics necessarily interact in an interesting way, but you get the idea.

The text explaining what a card does has to go somewhere. It can be taken off of a card by putting it into the rulebook. The coin tokens are a great example of this. "Take a coin token." So simple!

Hiding the complexity in the rulebook doesn't mean getting rid of it. The actual reduction in complexity is due to doing the same thing over and over on different cards. You have to learn it once, and learn the thing that will identify it, that's an extra thing. But then it can be on eight cards and you only learned two things.

There are a lot of players though who really appreciate not having to look at the rulebook, being able to just play Dominion with random cards and know what they do from the card text. The game gets worse for them with each thing like coin tokens.

For me, this is an argument for new players playing with just e.g. two sets at a time, rather than full random. When a new player has to learn Duration rules, Reserve rules, Potion rules, etc. all at the same time, and each one only applies for one card in the game, that's a big turnoff. For the online version, I think the Campaigns mode does a good job there.

[Seprix]

Once I knew all the cards and what they do, I could never just go back to the simplicity of the Base Set, and I think the vast majority of people would be the same. It's simply a matter of introducing new concepts slowly game by game.

[Witherweaver]

I guess for Dominion this is only partially true. What I was mostly talking about is words; as you allow more words on a card, the number of cards (and good cards) you can make increases uh more than linearly. Let's say quadratically. But really the best type of complexity is adding new mechanics. When you add a new mechanic, the number of interesting cards you could create increases drastically, but in reality is sharply limited by mechanics being partitioned into sets. There are no Potion-cost Duration cards, etc. Not that those two mechanics necessarily interact in an interesting way, but you get the idea.

The text explaining what a card does has to go somewhere. It can be taken off of a card by putting it into the rulebook. The coin tokens are a great example of this. "Take a coin token." So simple!

Hiding the complexity in the rulebook doesn't mean getting rid of it. The actual reduction in complexity is due to doing the same thing over and over on different cards. You have to learn it once, and learn the thing that will identify it, that's an extra thing. But then it can be on eight cards and you only learned two things.

There are a lot of players though who really appreciate not having to look at the rulebook, being able to just play Dominion with random cards and know what they do from the card text. The game gets worse for them with each thing like coin tokens.

You should try getting the card explanation text hidden into the card art somewhere.

[werothegreat]

Guys, stop torturing Awaclus. Don't make him say it flat out.

Those threads killed Awaclus's father.

But I'm not dead.

You are... from a certain point of view.

[faust]

Guys, stop torturing Awaclus. Don't make him say it flat out.

Those threads killed Awaclus's father.

But I'm not dead.

You are... from a certain point of view.

Darth Schrödinger.

[Polk5440]

There are a lot of players though who really appreciate not having to look at the rulebook, being able to just play Dominion with random cards and know what they do from the card text. The game gets worse for them with each thing like coin tokens.

This is definitely true for me.

What's amazing about Dominion is how strategically complex it can be with simple rules. There are lots of great games out there that are both strategically complex and have complex rules. The more Dominion expansions there are that substantially increase rules complexity, and the more full random across all expansions is "the way" to play Dominion, well, the less unique Dominion is.

[stechafle]

One thing that was annoying at first was organizing all of the tokens. We finally settled on ziploc snack size bags that can hold a Tavern Mat and associated tokens of same color.

[Chris is me]

One thing that was annoying at first was organizing all of the tokens. We finally settled on ziploc snack size bags that can hold a Tavern Mat and associated tokens of same color.

I started off with jewelry size bags for each color of token. I later found it was easier to actually group them by type of token, since in random games it's pretty rare to use more than 1 or 2 anyway - and it's easier to look for a particular token color than it is to look for "+1 Buy"

[yuma]

Like, for example, go smash your head against the wall.  It is, very likely, far more enjoyable than talking with Awaclus.

Yay! Another great WW quote about Awaclus to use! I am bookmarking this one for sure!

(With a slight edit)

[Awaclus]

Like, for example, go smash your head against the wall.  It is, very likely, far more enjoyable than talking with Awaclus.

Yay! Another great WW quote about Awaclus to use! I am bookmarking this one for sure!

(With a slight edit)

What do you think it's going to accomplish?