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Author Topic: BIG money  (Read 2041 times)

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jimjam

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BIG money
« on: January 19, 2012, 10:22:42 pm »
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Here's another counting-style puzzle:

You and your friends are discussing the merits of engine decks vs BM decks. So, one of your friends, quite fond of engines, asks:
"How much money can you get in a turn without playing any actions?"
The BM advocate thinks for a bit, and says, "well, I have a hand with 1 venture and 4 banks. If I play the venture and hit 9 more ventures and then a bank, that's a cool $65. Never mind the plus buy, that's plenty money"

You think to yourself: Hmm, this question is ill-posed. It doesn't preclude, for example, having played Tactician or Wharf the previous turn, even though that's clearly a violation of the notion of BM.
So how much money can one actually get, in a 2 player game, with isotropic-style setup (otherwise Philosopher's Stone value is unbounded), and without playing any actions on that turn?
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Young Nick

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Re: BIG money
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 12:47:58 am »
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Without going into the specific calculations, I would imagine you would start off with a 65- or 62- card hand because your opponent had used King's Court on Governor and Council Room. He may have "only" given you 57 cards in order to leave one card in the supply to prevent a 3-pile ending. Your hand (after Ventures) would probably be 9 Ventures, 10 Banks, 11 Platinums, 9 Philosopher's Stones, 29 Golds, 2 Contrabands. This would mean you would have 62 + 63 + ... +71 from Banks, 9 from Ventures, 55 from Platinums, 87 from Golds, 6 from Contrabands, and a lot from Philosopher's Stones. The supply would include Platinums, Colonies, Potions, Young Witch, Black Market, Ambassador and one other card (in addition to the cards mentioned). Your opponent would ambassador to you everything but his incredibly awesome deck (consisting of X KC's, 10 CR's, and 9 Governors)  and you would buy out all but 1 of the remaining cards.

Now I realize that using Fool's Golds instead of Golds or Contrabands would be better. I also am too lazy to do the full calculations.

And yeah, I intentionally ignored durations. Those would have only made it worse.
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jimjam

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Re: BIG money
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 02:51:37 am »
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Council Room/Governor is the right move, but it can be improved on. Duration cards are a liability, because of the Philosopher's Stones.
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GendoIkari

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Re: BIG money
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2012, 12:40:43 pm »
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I think this basically comes down to the largest handsize puzzle discussed here and here. I think just asking what is the most money you can get with a 5-card hand and no actions is better. Problem is, you still have to discount Philosopher's Stone, because then it's just a question of what is the largest deck possible. I think your answer is almost correct for that, but you seem to have forgotten the $10 from Ventures themselves... so $75.
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jimjam

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Re: BIG money
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2012, 02:53:38 pm »
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It's a similar puzzle, and I designed it based somewhat on tricks from those discussions. However the tricks used here are different, for example a pair of constraints are reversed as such:
Possessions played by both players allows any number of consecutive turns desired. This makes the big hands puzzle uninteresting so must be disallowed there, but there is no such constraint here, and in fact it can be used to get more points.
In the other puzzle it's better to allow infinite base treasures so that one can simply see how many draw effects they can stack. In this puzzle it's uninteresting because of the Philosopher's stone value.


TL;DR or no spoilers, it's not the same puzzle, and if you think it is you should try it :P
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ghostofmars

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Re: BIG money
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2012, 09:04:10 am »
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Kingdom cards:
Black Market (Ambassador,KC,Council Room,Tournament,Young Witch,Native Village,Harem,Loan,Quarry,Talisman,Horn of Plenty,Ill-Gotten Gains,+13 more)
Possession
Bank
Philosopher Stone
Fool's Gold (Bane)
Cache
Contraband
Hoard
Royal Seal
Stash
Venture

My opponent has ambassadored his deck to CR,Possession,Ambassador
I have my whole deck on the NV mat, except for KC,Possession,NV
Now, we play Possession -> KC+Possession until I have enough turns possessing him, than I NV my deck back and CR it into my hand.

Then play all treasures.

Exact amount:
Deck: 7 Colonies, 7 Provinces, 7 Duchy, 13 Estate, 9 Curses, 9 BM, 8 Possession, KC, Tournament, YW, NV, +13 more, +4 prices, 1 Bank, 8 venture = 90 cards
Hand: 11 Plat, 29 Gold, 39 Silver, 59 Copper, 15 Potion, 9 Bank, 10 Phil. Stone, Diadem, 9 Fool's Gold, 9 Cache, 9 Contraband, 9 Hoard, 9 Royal Seal, 9 Stash, 1 Venture, Harem, Loan, Quarry, Talisman, HOP, IGG

play money
all but venture,bank -> venture(draw more venture) -> play all bank


If I haven't miscounted that's 3066.
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jimjam

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Re: BIG money
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2012, 09:50:24 pm »
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First Trick:
Correct, but you don't need 10 Possessions. Better to have more treasures. Here's how to do it:
Your opponent Ambassadors out everything.

Assume you draw villages before whatever you need.
Play KC-Possession, Outpost, Chancellor (your NV method is probably better, actually).
Draw Possession, Chancellor, draw Masquerade
Masquerade the Possession, Chancellor.
Opp plays Possession once each.
You have 4 turns. Masquerade it back, play KC-possession for the 3 turns, then masquerade it on the 4th.

Second Trick:Horn of Plenty took the place of Possession
Deck: 7 Colonies, 7 Provinces, 7 Duchy, 13 Estate, 9 Curses, 9 BM+19 more (5 treasures 1 in opponent's hand), +4 prizes = 75 cards
Hand: 11 Plat, 29 Gold, 39 Silver, 59 Copper, 15 Potion, 9 Bank, 10 Phil. Stone, Diadem, 9 Fool's Gold, 9 Cache, 9 Contraband, 9 Hoard, 9 Royal Seal, 9 Stash, 10 HoP, 9 Venture, Harem, Loan, Quarry, Talisman, IGG
Play the simpler treasures, and gain copper with IGG
HoP: Platinum, FG, Contraband, Gold, Cache (no coppers left), Hoard, Royal Seal, Stash, Venture, Bank.
The P. Stones are now worth 85/5=17
Play the Ventures, hitting Venture->Bank last, then the banks.
Score:
12 Plat=60
30 Gold=90
39 Silver=78
60 Copper=60
15 Potions=0
10 FG=37
10 Contraband=30
10 Cache=30
10 Hoard=20
10 Royal Seal=20
10 Stash=20
10 Venture=10
(6)Harem, Loan, Quarry,Talisman, Diadem,IGG=9
10 HoP=0
10 Pstone=170
10 Bank= 2520+55

3209


Mandarin shenanigans are too inefficient so I think this is the best.
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