Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[AdrianHealey]

Patron



WHAT A GREAT CARD! There are so many different things you can do with this, and it doesn't feel overpowered in any of them, but it's fun to do some cute tricks with it.

For example: in the game today there was a Miser involved. Someone had 4 coppers on his tavern mat. Play miser, react with patron and BAM those 4 coppers are now a province. (Similar to a throne roomed Miser, of course.) Use patron, react with patron, gain a $5 card. Have $1 short? Let Patron take care of it, and don't gain another useless $4 card!

Tremendous design. Absolutely loved it.

[AdrianHealey]

Gladiator



In two games, it was used only once. The 6 card, 2 action start in your next turn is nice, though. Maybe I underestimated the card, and should I have bought more and used it as a delayed village. Not sure.

The jury is not out yet, though.

[AdrianHealey]

Building Cranes



Great design, but when there is +buy available, it gets silly really fast. I was able to buy 5 (because I had students who provided +buy and a festival) and 3-pile if I wanted too. (I wasn't ahead in provinces, so I didn't, but still.) I was able to buy 5, because I had put 3 back on the supply that particular turn.

When there is +buy, it's almost a necessity. We didn't play a game yet where there wasn't +Buy, but I can't imagine that this card would be picked up much in games like that. We'll see.

If I had to make some design suggestions, I think something like this would be my suggestion:

Building Cranes
$5
action
+3 cards
+1 Action
Return this to the supply. If you do, BC cost $2 less but not less than $1.

Make it slightly more expensive, so that you still have to sacrifice some coins to get additional versions.

Either way, still curious for more testing, but man, that card can be strong if there are additional buys.

[Asper]

Patron



WHAT A GREAT CARD! There are so many different things you can do with this, and it doesn't feel overpowered in any of them, but it's fun to do some cute tricks with it.

For example: in the game today there was a Miser involved. Someone had 4 coppers on his tavern mat. Play miser, react with patron and BAM those 4 coppers are now a province. (Similar to a throne roomed Miser, of course.) Use patron, react with patron, gain a $5 card. Have $1 short? Let Patron take care of it, and don't gain another useless $4 card!

Tremendous design. Absolutely loved it.

I assumed there were a lot of cards that interact very weirdly with Patron, but somehow i only got this: If i play a normal and a Patroned Highway, what is the minimum cost? Is it $0 or $1?

[AdrianHealey]

Depends which O-symbol you increase in value, right?

I would increase the cost reduction value, so min value is still $0.

[Asper]

Depends which O-symbol you increase in value, right?

I would increase the cost reduction value, so min value is still $0.

Well, sure. What if i don't do that, though? For example because i want to trash Coppers or Curses to Bishop?

[AdrianHealey]

So you play one highway without patron and one with patron, and then you wonder if cards can go below 1 or nor?

I'd say: last played card counts.

[Mr Anderson]

It really depends whether you'd say the "but not less than "-part of the card is actually the card's effect or a rule that should be printed in the rulebook rather than on the actual card. With cards usually costing , the rule "cards cannot cost not less than " makes no sense as it does not increase the cost itself.
That text should avoid issues with negative money (Poor House) or negative costs (do I get when I buy it), so in my opinion, the second on Highway, Bridge etc. should not be a valid target for Patron.

[faust]

So you play one highway without patron and one with patron, and then you wonder if cards can go below 1 or nor?

I'd say: last played card counts.

I'd say it's very clearly always $1. The Patroned Highway would read (other effects aside): "While this is in play, cards cannot cost less than $1". That is a clear instruction, and playing a normal Highway does not contradict it "Card cannot cost less than $0" is always fulfilled if cards cannot cost less than $1. The other Highway also cannot decrease the value of a card costing $1 since Patroned Highway says that's impossible.

By the way, I think Patron needs to specify how long the coin increase lasts. "Until that card leaves play" seems to work. Otherwise you could assume that the increase is permanent, which is untrackable. It would also have some unresolved issues with Reserves (can I or can I not use this to gain $7 cards with Duplicate?)

[AdrianHealey]

So you play one highway without patron and one with patron, and then you wonder if cards can go below 1 or nor?

I'd say: last played card counts.

I'd say it's very clearly always $1. The Patroned Highway would read (other effects aside): "While this is in play, cards cannot cost less than $1". That is a clear instruction, and playing a normal Highway does not contradict it "Card cannot cost less than $0" is always fulfilled if cards cannot cost less than $1. The other Highway also cannot decrease the value of a card costing $1 since Patroned Highway says that's impossible.

By the way, I think Patron needs to specify how long the coin increase lasts. "Until that card leaves play" seems to work. Otherwise you could assume that the increase is permanent, which is untrackable. It would also have some unresolved issues with Reserves (can I or can I not use this to gain $7 cards with Duplicate?)

Fair explanation. I played Patron as if it said 'until that card leaves play', because it just felt obvious. Probably the maker should have included it. (It's not my card.)

Also: If I remember correctly, you don't *play* reserve cards, you *call* them. Patron specifies that you can only use it when a card is *played*, which is not the same, right?

I think you are right in the first explanation.

The question is: if I raise that coin, does that mean that curses and coppers now cost $1? I think they should, reading it as two separate clauses:

(1) All cards cost one less
(2) no card costs less than $0 (=> $1)

Another way of reading it would be
(1) all cards cost one less and (1B) this effect can not cause cards to cost less than $0 (=> $1)

the latter reading would imply that cards that already cost $0 do not need to be raised though.

What reading would you prefer?

[faust]

What reading would you prefer?

I think of it as going step by step through the card text.

So this is what I feel would happen if you played a "normal" Highway.

Step 1: All cards cost 1$ less. Copper now costs -1$.
Step 2: Check if any card costs less than 0$. If yes, adjust price.

With that reading, Patroned Highway would make Coppers cost $1. I can see how you would interpret it differently though.

[AdrianHealey]

What reading would you prefer?

I think of it as going step by step through the card text.

So this is what I feel would happen if you played a "normal" Highway.

Step 1: All cards cost 1$ less. Copper now costs -1$.
Step 2: Check if any card costs less than 0$. If yes, adjust price.

With that reading, Patroned Highway would make Coppers cost $1. I can see how you would interpret it differently though.

That's how I would read it too. But yes, I can imagine reading it differently too. We need a FAQ on this.

[Asper]

I am agreeing with MrAnderson that the rule should be in the rulebook and always set to $0. I am not agreeing this means you can't apply Patron to it. I think it means you have to reword Patron to avoid the issue in the first place.

[eHalcyon]

Fair explanation. I played Patron as if it said 'until that card leaves play', because it just felt obvious. Probably the maker should have included it. (It's not my card.)

Also: If I remember correctly, you don't *play* reserve cards, you *call* them. Patron specifies that you can only use it when a card is *played*, which is not the same, right?

It doesn't matter if the effect only lasts until the card leaves play.  But if it lasts longer, then you could presumably use Patron when you play the Reserve card  and apply the effect at that time.  Then the card goes to the Tavern mat and retains the Patron effect until called.  That would make for some rough tracking.

BTW, if Patron isn't your card, whose is it?  Credit should always be given...

[AdrianHealey]

No idea

[yuma]

Patron (Action-Reaction) 4$
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you play a card, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, add 1 to the number in one [coin icon] on that card until it has been resolved.

With Patron, you can turn a Remodel into an Expand, double the effect of a Bridge/Highway, add +1 to a +coin, etc. Also combines well with itself.

The reaction part is something I've never seen before and I think will be a lot of fun. At worst, this card is a copper.

[faust]

Fair explanation. I played Patron as if it said 'until that card leaves play', because it just felt obvious. Probably the maker should have included it. (It's not my card.)

Also: If I remember correctly, you don't *play* reserve cards, you *call* them. Patron specifies that you can only use it when a card is *played*, which is not the same, right?

It doesn't matter if the effect only lasts until the card leaves play.  But if it lasts longer, then you could presumably use Patron when you play the Reserve card  and apply the effect at that time.  Then the card goes to the Tavern mat and retains the Patron effect until called.  That would make for some rough tracking.

BTW, if Patron isn't your card, whose is it?  Credit should always be given...

Eh, the harder to track part would be play the card, apply the bonus, then shuffle it back in your deck with the bonus still applied. As long as the effect doesn't end, that would be possible, but completely impossible to track.

[eHalcyon]

Fair explanation. I played Patron as if it said 'until that card leaves play', because it just felt obvious. Probably the maker should have included it. (It's not my card.)

Also: If I remember correctly, you don't *play* reserve cards, you *call* them. Patron specifies that you can only use it when a card is *played*, which is not the same, right?

It doesn't matter if the effect only lasts until the card leaves play.  But if it lasts longer, then you could presumably use Patron when you play the Reserve card  and apply the effect at that time.  Then the card goes to the Tavern mat and retains the Patron effect until called.  That would make for some rough tracking.

BTW, if Patron isn't your card, whose is it?  Credit should always be given...

Eh, the harder to track part would be play the card, apply the bonus, then shuffle it back in your deck with the bonus still applied. As long as the effect doesn't end, that would be possible, but completely impossible to track.

Well yeah, but presumably it would not last  forever for that very reason.  Having it last until discarded sounds plausible, which is where it lasting while in the Tavern is a consideration. 

[Co0kieL0rd]

Adrian Healey, I think it's nice and helpful of you to collect and share your experiences with fan cards with the community, but could you please give me credit for including my card Building Crane in this thread? It's been a part of my set Roots and Renewal (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11563.0) for ca. 1.5 years.

[AdrianHealey]

Happily, I lost track of all the sources of all the cards, but I understand this is important. Will be more pro active on this.

Edit: my apologies for neglecting that fact until now.

[Asper]

Sources:
Patron is by beri, as pointed out by yuma.
Auction and Floodgate are by LastFootnote, and i think they are part of Enterprise.
Town (& Road) are by me.
Frontier is part of Fragasnap's Greed.

[Gubump]

Auction and Floodgate are by LastFootnote, and i think they are part of Enterprise.

I believe that all of LFN's fan cards are part of Enterprise.

[AdrianHealey]

Updates today on: (1) Plantation (Asper/Cookielord, Seasons), (2) Student version 1 (we played again with it), Conclave (looking for origin), Mill (looking for origin).

[LastFootnote]

Conclave is mine! Though in the most recent version you put the other cards back rather than discarding them.

[Asper]

Mill is my Cornucopia-fied take at beri's dice-based Gambling Den.