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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic  (Read 9468 times)

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werothegreat

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Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« on: March 16, 2016, 09:12:10 am »
+2


One necklace to rule them all...

-How strong of an Attack is this?
-Do you ever want more than one?
-What other cards does it work well with?
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2016, 09:18:59 am »
0

The attack is really strong.
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J Reggie

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2016, 09:22:08 am »
0

I've always wondered if there could be a way to make this work with Minion. It'd be hard to set up, but the attack (a random 3 cards) could be very mean.

Anyway I think the attack can serve as a good payload if you play it every turn, and might actually combo better with normal discard attacks. Drawing one fewer card each turn can really hurt a lot of strategies.

faust

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2016, 09:30:48 am »
+4

-How strong of an Attack is this?
-Do you ever want more than one?
-What other cards does it work well with?

The attack is weaker than Minion. Minion gives your opponent a 4-card hand. Relic either gives them a delayed 4-card hand or weakens one of their draw cards. The upside is of course that you will always be able to play this attack. It stacks with other discard attacks (Militia/Relic leaves your opponent with a 3-card hand AND lets them draw one card less), which makes it pretty nasty in such situations.

You probably want more than one in most BM decks. Any engine probably wants exactly one almost always.

Combos are as specified mainly other discard attacks. It can probably do some cute tricks with Storyteller/Black Market and cards like Council Room or Margrave. But mostly it's just a card that is almost always nice to have.
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Seprix

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2016, 02:12:40 pm »
0

The $5 cost is steep for a singular Silver, but the payoff over time can work by slightly hindering your opponent.

Engine: The ideal scenario is playing this card every turn, and only having one of them. It directly competes with $5 Action cards, the effect doesn't stack, and it's not a fantastic attack either to begin with, being a delayed Urchin that gives you $2 for a cost of $5. It might not hurt to pick this card up in longer engine games with poor trashing (or no trashing at all), but in quicker games it might just be completely skipped. If a discard attack AND Relic can be played in a turn and you have the ability to do that first and consistently, your opponent is going to just flat out lose.

On BM: I'm not so sure having more than 2 of these cards is worth it in BM decks. Sure, it's great to get if you hit $5 and you don't need any more draw cards. It's not so nice to get when Gold or Province can be bought instead. If it's convenient to get it, go for it. Otherwise, I can't see buying Relic over Gold on a $6. This is a card that if you want it, you want it early. It's no good trying to stop your opponent by buying this when there are two Provinces left and there's also Duchy dancing.

As an opening on $5/$2: Doesn't seem to be worth it most of the time. It's a weaker attack, and the benefits are marginal for you.

Also, combos with Storyteller.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 02:20:17 pm by Seprix »
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2016, 02:20:26 pm »
+5

I think this was mentioned in the Raid thread, but this card's -1 card token attack is stronger than Urchin's attack because the other player cannot choose what card they lose. It's more comparable to a Minion that doesn't cycle.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2016, 02:24:33 pm »
0

I think this was mentioned in the Raid thread, but this card's -1 card token attack is stronger than Urchin's attack because the other player cannot choose what card they lose. It's more comparable to a Minion that doesn't cycle.

That is true, though it can't be that much stronger.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2016, 02:30:29 pm »
+9

I think this was mentioned in the Raid thread, but this card's -1 card token attack is stronger than Urchin's attack because the other player cannot choose what card they lose. It's more comparable to a Minion that doesn't cycle.

That is true, though it can't be that much stronger.

Losing a random card is a lot worse than losing your worst card.  It can even be more painful than Militia.  Urchin is weak because you almost always have junk to discard.  In this case, even if you lose the worst card from your would-be 5 card hand, that junk is on top of your deck.  Instead of Minion, maybe it helps to think of it as a mini Ghost Ship where you have no control over what to put back.
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Seprix

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 02:31:25 pm »
+1

I think this was mentioned in the Raid thread, but this card's -1 card token attack is stronger than Urchin's attack because the other player cannot choose what card they lose. It's more comparable to a Minion that doesn't cycle.

That is true, though it can't be that much stronger.

Losing a random card is a lot worse than losing your worst card.  It can even be more painful than Militia.  Urchin is weak because you almost always have junk to discard.  In this case, even if you lose the worst card from your would-be 5 card hand, that junk is on top of your deck.  Instead of Minion, maybe it helps to think of it as a mini Ghost Ship where you have no control over what to put back.

Well, when you put it that way..
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2016, 02:35:30 pm »
+3

Relic's attack is far from weak, and in many decks the value of an attack that does not cost an action is huge. Relic is good in engines, but it helps TDBM even more, as it allows these decks to significantly slow down engines. Even one less card at the beginning of an engine could be enough to derail it once or twice, which in Dominion might be all you need.
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Seprix

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2016, 02:37:59 pm »
0

Relic's attack is far from weak, and in many decks the value of an attack that does not cost an action is huge. Relic is good in engines, but it helps TDBM even more, as it allows these decks to significantly slow down engines. Even one less card at the beginning of an engine could be enough to derail it once or twice, which in Dominion might be all you need.

I should just probably put a disclaimer that I haven't played with any of these cards yet, and that these are my current impressions. I have the set, I played like one game with my friends with Adventures. I really wish Making Fun would get on that ball with Adventures.
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2016, 02:40:19 pm »
+2

Relic's attack is far from weak, and in many decks the value of an attack that does not cost an action is huge. Relic is good in engines, but it helps TDBM even more, as it allows these decks to significantly slow down engines. Even one less card at the beginning of an engine could be enough to derail it once or twice, which in Dominion might be all you need.

I should just probably put a disclaimer that I haven't played with any of these cards yet, and that these are my current impressions. I have the set, I played like one game with my friends with Adventures. I really wish Making Fun would get on that ball with Adventures.

Adventures is apparently releasing on MF by the end of the month.  Just in time for Empires teasers!
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2016, 02:40:34 pm »
0

Relic's attack is far from weak, and in many decks the value of an attack that does not cost an action is huge. Relic is good in engines, but it helps TDBM even more, as it allows these decks to significantly slow down engines. Even one less card at the beginning of an engine could be enough to derail it once or twice, which in Dominion might be all you need.

I should just probably put a disclaimer that I haven't played with any of these cards yet, and that these are my current impressions. I have the set, I played like one game with my friends with Adventures. I really wish Making Fun would get on that ball with Adventures.

Adventures is apparently releasing on MF by the end of the month.  Just in time for Empires teasers!

GOOD.
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jomini

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2016, 02:58:54 pm »
+7

The "-1 card attack" is one of the better discard attacks. It is appreciably harder to fish for an engine when playing a stock village does not draw a card. This can be crippling on a few turns where discarding two coppers is meaningless.

A second Relic is moderately useful for Kc/Scav/Relic if the other guy is not trying to set up a double Kc/Scav deck. I would not burn an $8, $7 and likely not a $6 on Relic, but I could see it being useful for slowing some big engine (e.g. Goons with really crappy draw for the Kc) while you ate the provinces. Another place where a second copy is helpful is in Adviser decks where the attack is your most painful thing to hit the other guy with. An even more edge-casey option is with Storyteller/Black market & Gov/Cr/Lost city/Soothesayer, I could see Storyteller/Soothesayer working well with 2 or more Relics to make the other guy lose multiple draws.

Relic works phenomenally well with Mine. It is absolutely worth it to turn Silvers into Relics with Mine when you do not need Gold's buying power.
It is also handy to tuck a Relic into a Venture deck if the other guy has not gone Venture.

Rabble makes for a brutal combo, particularly as part of a Rabble engine - 3 Green on top, draw 4 means that you either have to get insanely lucky to kick off an engine ... or you have to hope that dead drawing does something for you. Losing 1 in 5 cards is a good attack, losing 1 in 3 or 1 in 2 useful cards is stupidly strong. Even Rabble's weaker cousins - Spy, Fteller, and B-crat all amp up the -1 token and have some serious increases in firepower with a -1 Token helping out.

Relic is better than average soft counter against Fools gold and Tmaps. The odds that 1/3 cards is not a match is typically a good bit higher than 1/4 cards not being a match. Likewise, it is a nice counter to low/no draw combo decks. A Bishop golden deck cannot hit provinces (barring Plat or cantrips) off 4 cards. Other combos, like Kc/Remodel (no draw, but strong trashing) also crash and burn

For straight BM games, it is pretty helpful as it easily wrecks a lot of $8 combinations, slows the other guys cycling, and doesn't compete with gold. Particularly with non-draw BM this would likely be my goto $5 whenever I am not looking for more terminals.

At the end of the day, I would pretty much need to have a good reason not to grab a Relic in an engine (e.g. Jack, Pool). The potential to cause a whiff in the last couple of turns is just too strong once my engine is built. -1 is a delayed Minion which just all manner of good. +1 action, $2 -1 card is at least as good as Militia and certainly respectable.

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faust

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2016, 04:19:01 pm »
+2

A lot of people put Relic as "losing a random card out of five". I think more often than not, this is wrong. You already have five cards in hand when Relic hits, and most of the time, you will play some card that draws something during your turn.

Relic's attack is thus weaker as you get to play around it with some cards: Scrying Pool, Advisor etc. (How does -1 card interact with Draw-to-X by the way?) Then once you have drawn your deck, you can play some draw card to remove your token before the next cleanup.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2016, 04:22:14 pm »
+1

Relic's attack is far from weak, and in many decks the value of an attack that does not cost an action is huge. Relic is good in engines, but it helps TDBM even more, as it allows these decks to significantly slow down engines. Even one less card at the beginning of an engine could be enough to derail it once or twice, which in Dominion might be all you need.

I should just probably put a disclaimer that I haven't played with any of these cards yet, and that these are my current impressions. I have the set, I played like one game with my friends with Adventures. I really wish Making Fun would get on that ball with Adventures.

Adventures is apparently releasing on MF by the end of the month.  Just in time for Empires teasers!

The current release date for Empires is May 18th. If that ends up being correct, we may not see teasers until early May.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2016, 04:25:47 pm »
+2

A lot of people put Relic as "losing a random card out of five". I think more often than not, this is wrong. You already have five cards in hand when Relic hits, and most of the time, you will play some card that draws something during your turn.

Relic's attack is thus weaker as you get to play around it with some cards: Scrying Pool, Advisor etc. (How does -1 card interact with Draw-to-X by the way?) Then once you have drawn your deck, you can play some draw card to remove your token before the next cleanup.

If you play around it with cards like Scrying Pool and Advisor, the -1 card token will still apply the next time you draw.  These cards reveal and then put in hand, so they aren't affected by the -1 card token, and neither do they affect the token.  Draw-to-X removes the token though and just continues drawing.

Even when it only lowers your draw from a played card, the effect is still a random card being left on your deck instead of being put in your hand.  If you can draw your deck anyway, well that's more a measure of how powerful your deck was, not so much about how strong the attack was.  It still forces you to play a draw card to lose the token, when you could be using those actions to do something better.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 04:27:10 pm by eHalcyon »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2016, 04:32:40 pm »
+3

Does "drawing" a card when you have no cards left to draw actually remove the token? I'm guessing yes, but I don't know. The wiki doesn't say.
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Seprix

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2016, 04:39:23 pm »
+1

(How does -1 card interact with Draw-to-X by the way?)

I think that's simple. Library is going to be much stronger in decks with Relic, it seems. You draw to X. Remove the token, you keep drawing until you reach X.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2016, 04:54:15 pm »
0

Relic is insanely strong, although it doesn't like it, is my experience. In several games with relic, the one who randomly bought relic won.
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2016, 05:00:15 pm »
+2

Does "drawing" a card when you have no cards left to draw actually remove the token? I'm guessing yes, but I don't know. The wiki doesn't say.

Let me just read Donald X's mind real quick
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2016, 05:07:41 pm »
0

Does "drawing" a card when you have no cards left to draw actually remove the token? I'm guessing yes, but I don't know. The wiki doesn't say.

Let me just read Donald X's mind real quick

I think it does.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2016, 05:24:57 pm »
+4

Does "drawing" a card when you have no cards left to draw actually remove the token? I'm guessing yes, but I don't know. The wiki doesn't say.
Looking at the rulebook I am tentatively going with yes.

Similarly if you have to draw one card, would have to shuffle to draw it, and have the -1 Card token, you don't shuffle.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2016, 06:14:47 pm »
+1

So the -1 Card token is like having a blank card that does nothing on top of your deck, that vanishes when you draw it?  That seems like it would lead to the most intuitive rulings.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Relic
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2016, 06:20:07 pm »
+3

So the -1 Card token is like having a blank card that does nothing on top of your deck, that vanishes when you draw it?  That seems like it would lead to the most intuitive rulings.
But cards like Scrying Pool and Catacombs...
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