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Author Topic: The Necro Wars  (Read 337316 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5200 on: March 24, 2023, 03:39:41 pm »

Yeah -- this data doesn't contradict my position at all, alas.

What concretely are the things the "extreme left" beliefs wrt social justice that make random people who would otherwise consider voting for Democrats hate them?

Here's a made-up example of a thing that has probably happened hundreds of times before. Anna is a single mom who is extremely  uninvolved in politics and can't even name the vice president; she votes democrat if she remembers to vote at all bc her parents did and although she's pretty gullible, she kinda correctly inferred that this Trump guy is a bit of a clown

Then her kid gets told at school that white kids cannot really be friends with black kids and that you mustn't ever draw people with black skin if you're not black yourself, and that it's not ok to "uninvolved" or "color blind". She finds this odd and talks to her friend Barbara, but Barbara has taken the SJF pill and doesn't concede that anything that's going on is a bad thing. Unnerved, Anna decides to do some "research" and lands on some social platform that, due to the advertising model, has algorithms optimized for radicalizing people like her. She then gets fed a successive stream of cherry picked horror stories about kids being manipulated in school. She makes friends with other people on the platform and begins to adopt an emotional stance against this kind of stuff. It never comes up, but if she was asked about her voting intention at this point, she'd say that she'll still vote Democrat but {some rant about some cherry-picked thing she saw on facebook}

This goes on for the next 12 months, during which her aesthetic becomes more anti-social justice bit by bit. When 2024 rolls around, she votes for DeSantis. Then he does something stupid wrt to climate change and a lot of people die.

faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5201 on: March 24, 2023, 05:03:54 pm »

Yeah -- this data doesn't contradict my position at all, alas.

What concretely are the things the "extreme left" beliefs wrt social justice that make random people who would otherwise consider voting for Democrats hate them?

Here's a made-up example of a thing that has probably happened hundreds of times before. Anna is a single mom who is extremely  uninvolved in politics and can't even name the vice president; she votes democrat if she remembers to vote at all bc her parents did and although she's pretty gullible, she kinda correctly inferred that this Trump guy is a bit of a clown

Then her kid gets told at school that white kids cannot really be friends with black kids and that you mustn't ever draw people with black skin if you're not black yourself, and that it's not ok to "uninvolved" or "color blind". She finds this odd and talks to her friend Barbara, but Barbara has taken the SJF pill and doesn't concede that anything that's going on is a bad thing. Unnerved, Anna decides to do some "research" and lands on some social platform that, due to the advertising model, has algorithms optimized for radicalizing people like her. She then gets fed a successive stream of cherry picked horror stories about kids being manipulated in school. She makes friends with other people on the platform and begins to adopt an emotional stance against this kind of stuff. It never comes up, but if she was asked about her voting intention at this point, she'd say that she'll still vote Democrat but {some rant about some cherry-picked thing she saw on facebook}

This goes on for the next 12 months, during which her aesthetic becomes more anti-social justice bit by bit. When 2024 rolls around, she votes for DeSantis. Then he does something stupid wrt to climate change and a lot of people die.
I would expect that this thing probably happened as often as prepubescent teens getting bottom surgery.
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faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5202 on: March 24, 2023, 05:12:44 pm »

Also, the above story still doesn't give any indication as to what the Democrats should do differently.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5203 on: March 24, 2023, 05:27:41 pm »

Also, the above story still doesn't give any indication as to what the Democrats should do differently.

Most of the bad stuff doesn't happen at the level of politics. The biggest champion of progressive causes was Bernie Sanders, who isn't very social-justicy at all.

In this particular case, I wrote in the interaction with Barbara as an additional bottleneck; here disaster could perhaps have been avoided by just taking the concerns seriously and not motivating Anna to fall into the social media rabbit hole in the first place

but in general, I don't know how to combat the problem. (Apparently Tim doesn't either after spending 6 years on the problem.) The only big structural suggestion I'm confident in is to massively restrict how much advertising is allowed.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5204 on: March 24, 2023, 05:28:07 pm »

biggest champion in recent years I mean

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5205 on: March 24, 2023, 05:38:40 pm »

Here's a made-up example of a thing that has probably happened hundreds of times before. Anna is a single mom who is extremely  uninvolved in politics and can't even name the vice president; she votes democrat if she remembers to vote at all bc her parents did and although she's pretty gullible, she kinda correctly inferred that this Trump guy is a bit of a clown

Then her kid gets told at school that white kids cannot really be friends with black kids and that you mustn't ever draw people with black skin if you're not black yourself, and that it's not ok to "uninvolved" or "color blind". She finds this odd and talks to her friend Barbara, but Barbara has taken the SJF pill and doesn't concede that anything that's going on is a bad thing.

Has there ever been a case where a school was in fact telling people that white kids can't be friends with black kids and that you mustn't ever draw people with black skin if you're not black yourself? Has there ever been a Barbara who has taken the SJF pill to the extent that she won't concede, in a private conversation with a friend who obviously disagrees with the SJF pill, that racial segregation might be a bad thing?

It's definitely not going to help Democrats in the long run to pretend that Republicans' made-up examples exist.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5206 on: March 24, 2023, 10:15:58 pm »

In unrelated news, I have seeded over 500 GiB this session (i.e. since the last time I launched my torrent client). I think that's a new record for me.
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faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5207 on: March 25, 2023, 05:09:14 am »

Bernie Sanders, who isn't very social-justicy at all.
Well, this is an interesting perspective. What makes you say so?

Here are some things I found wrt Bernie and Social Justice:
Bernie says social justice is the reason he ran for president
Bernie says "we have a racist society from top to bottom"
Bernie supports gender-affirming surgery for trans people
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5208 on: March 25, 2023, 05:32:11 am »

Bernie Sanders, who isn't very social-justicy at all.
Well, this is an interesting perspective. What makes you say so?

Here are some things I found wrt Bernie and Social Justice:
Bernie says social justice is the reason he ran for president
Bernie says "we have a racist society from top to bottom"
Bernie supports gender-affirming surgery for trans people

sorry, I should have sade SJF-y. The whole point is to draw a distinction between legitimate issues and low-rung issues.

The second quote is maybe arguable but it doesn't really matter if he says it once; that doesn't make him SJF-y. I've listened to tons of speeches of him and he talks about economic issues way more than social justice issues, and if he does talk about social justice issues afair it's all reasonable

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5209 on: March 25, 2023, 05:34:10 am »

Here's a made-up example of a thing that has probably happened hundreds of times before. Anna is a single mom who is extremely  uninvolved in politics and can't even name the vice president; she votes democrat if she remembers to vote at all bc her parents did and although she's pretty gullible, she kinda correctly inferred that this Trump guy is a bit of a clown

Then her kid gets told at school that white kids cannot really be friends with black kids and that you mustn't ever draw people with black skin if you're not black yourself, and that it's not ok to "uninvolved" or "color blind". She finds this odd and talks to her friend Barbara, but Barbara has taken the SJF pill and doesn't concede that anything that's going on is a bad thing.

Has there ever been a case where a school was in fact telling people that white kids can't be friends with black kids

Yes -- that's the entire point! I used to think this was extremely rare, but it doesn't seem so. I may dig up some stats later -- unfortunately finding specific points is much harder with an audio book than the pdf, so who knows

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5210 on: March 25, 2023, 05:39:48 am »

Maybe you should read the book!

faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5211 on: March 25, 2023, 05:40:56 am »

Bernie Sanders, who isn't very social-justicy at all.
Well, this is an interesting perspective. What makes you say so?

Here are some things I found wrt Bernie and Social Justice:
Bernie says social justice is the reason he ran for president
Bernie says "we have a racist society from top to bottom"
Bernie supports gender-affirming surgery for trans people

sorry, I should have sade SJF-y. The whole point is to draw a distinction between legitimate issues and low-rung issues.

The second quote is maybe arguable but it doesn't really matter if he says it once; that doesn't make him SJF-y. I've listened to tons of speeches of him and he talks about economic issues way more than social justice issues, and if he does talk about social justice issues afair it's all reasonable
You keep using that term SJF as if I'm supposed to know what that means. I have already laid out that Urban puts very different concepts under this umbrella. What do you mean?

Economic issues are social justice issues, I would say.
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faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5212 on: March 25, 2023, 05:41:43 am »

Maybe you should read the book!
Well I read the book and I don't think it's a thing that happens.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5213 on: March 25, 2023, 05:46:34 am »

Maybe you should read the book!
Well I read the book and I don't think it's a thing that happens.

Yes I noticed. Your reaction to the book has failed to convince me.

You keep using that term SJF as if I'm supposed to know what that means. I have already laid out that Urban puts very different concepts under this umbrella. What do you mean?

You should just read it as "the people who think SJF is a real thing don't think Bernie is a part of it".

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5214 on: March 25, 2023, 05:48:30 am »

(and before you try to dig out some quote from someone who does think this, I should qualify that I preidct there are millions such quotes on the internet, but what I said is nonetheless true. it's a poltiical thing; there are always exceptions.)

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5215 on: March 25, 2023, 05:51:18 am »

You keep using that term SJF as if I'm supposed to know what that means. I have already laid out that Urban puts very different concepts under this umbrella. What do you mean?

You should just read it as "the people who think SJF is a real thing don't think Bernie is a part of it".
Yeah, and to me, this means that there is no reason for Democrats to give up on SJF positions, since Bernie had them and it didn't harm him. Rather it is an indication that that Democrats need to move to the left to reach more people.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5216 on: March 25, 2023, 07:48:43 am »

For the record, I have a pretty favorable view of Bernie Sanders -- I respect him far more as a person than Clinton, and I take the head-to-head polls seriously that showed him doing better vs. Trump. I wanted him to win in 2016 and in retrospect that sure looks like it would have been better. I just don't think this is very relevant for the debate here. In fact, not to be contrarian but he probably would have been the better candidate under that lens because he brought home the idea that progressivism is about concrete issues like minimum wage, medicare for all, et cetera.

So yeah, I don't mind the democrats going left if it looks like that. (And I'd guess Urban probably supported Bernie as well, though I'm not sure.)

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5217 on: March 25, 2023, 08:15:54 am »

(I was wrong about the probability of him winning though bc I was eating up the leftist narrative instead of listening to Nate Silver)

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5218 on: March 25, 2023, 07:39:54 pm »

I got to 612 GiB of uploaded stuff before I had to close qBittorrent.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5219 on: March 30, 2023, 06:13:17 am »

Fun fact: Grammarly finds about as much to complain in my not-yet-edited sections of the review than in the parts I quote from Dennett's professionally published book

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5220 on: March 30, 2023, 06:14:08 am »

actually it's actively more in the quoted parts

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5221 on: March 30, 2023, 06:16:01 am »

Also he keeps using em dashes with spaces — like this — which really bugs me. You're supposed to use them so—without a space—or if you think that's ugly as I do, use an em dash with spaces – like so!

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5222 on: March 30, 2023, 06:16:47 am »

blargh, I mean an *en dash with spaces. The middle one.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5223 on: March 30, 2023, 08:24:17 am »

Very movie-esque thing that happened recently: I go to this chess club, and once I met one of the three other people who rents a room or apartment in my house. I think I was just about to leave, so it was very brief. But I had no idea that he was going, too, so like that's pretty cool.

I almost never see him here anyway, he's very busy with his doctorate. Something something biology.

But I was wondering how good he is. Statistically speaking probably a little weaker than me; I'm better than >50% of the club! So last time I asked the guy who runs the club about him. His response was "better than both of us combined". Turns out he's the second strongest chess player in the entire city (of 90k people). I did not expect this.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5224 on: March 30, 2023, 09:30:46 pm »


Yeah, and to me, this means that there is no reason for Democrats to give up on SJF positions, since Bernie had them and it didn't harm him. Rather it is an indication that that Democrats need to move to the left to reach more people.

The two Big Tent parties in the US combined will not likely have more than 50% support from the people, so moving to the left is not entirely helpful in spite of my wishes that they do. Currently about 55% of the US population is without meaningful representation at any level of government largely thanks to plurality voting. One day the US may be as great a Democracy as Germany, but not likely anytime soon.
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