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[werothegreat]

And what do you want to be when you grow up?
-How many Pages do you usually want to snag?
-What cards help you get to Champion the fastest?
-Other than Champion, which upgrade is most useful?

[pacovf]

Has anyone ever made Diadem-Champion work?

[Mavy2k]

I have only played 4 player games with this card so far and Treasure Hunter can gain you a lot of silvers. If all 3 players before you played their Treasure Hunter you have a hard decision, if you really want 7 silvers in your deck.

[ehunt]

How strong is the strategy of just warrior-ing out your opponent's deck? What is optimal implementation? My sense is that it is very strong, almost dominant, but this may be an error for only considering the case where both players do the same thing (in which case the luckier one will lock out the unluckier one).

[transportowiec96]

I usually take one page, unless it's a colony board, where I want 2 of them, and in rare cases 3. 1 goes for champion and rest goes for hero which gains me plats.

Sifters like Warehouse, Cellar, Scout and deck discarders, Scavenger and Messenger. Oh, and chancellor too.

Treasure Hunter is very weak, unless you're going for feodums. Warrior can be a good trashing attack and drawer, but Hero is more useful on boards with more exotic treasures like platinum.

[Limetime]

I usually take one page, unless it's a colony board, where I want 2 of them, and in rare cases 3. 1 goes for champion and rest goes for hero which gains me plats.

Sifters like Warehouse, Cellar, Scout and deck discarders, Scavenger and Messenger. Oh, and chancellor too.

Treasure Hunter is very weak, unless you're going for feodums. Warrior can be a good trashing attack and drawer, but Hero is more useful on boards with more exotic treasures like platinum.

Platinum is so lackluster on a board with champion and warrior on it

[schadd]

page (and and the rest)

[JThorne]

Travellers are only efficient when you're cycling like a madman (or a Madman?) Warehouse FTW.

So, the most important thing is sifting and drawing. Only Warrior does that. Barring an edge-case like Feodum, you simply want to buy several pages, upgrade one of them to Champion, and the rest stop at Warriors. Period. Even then, you want some trashing or the engine will stall.

What you want is an engine, and a Laboratory engine (which is what Warriors do) will choke badly on too much treasure. Treasure hunter will gain some silvers on its way to Warrior, and Hero will gain one Gold/Platinum on its way to Champion, and that's plenty of cash. You're not playing Big Money or you wouldn't buy Travellers.

A terminal draw can also help, though you risk drawing a Traveller dead and missing a reshuffle, but even then, cycling the ones already in your discard is probably worth it, and it becomes non-terminal once you hit Champion. Track where your top Traveller is.

This Traveller is quite good. Just remember: There's no +buy in it, and all of the treasure-gaining is non-optional, meaning this chain will break itself if played carelessly.

[Elestan]

How strong is the strategy of just warrior-ing out your opponent's deck?

It is strong if the opponent cares a lot about 3and 4 costs

In a game with Page, 3-4 costs are almost always important, because you need to move a traveller through those levels before you can get a Champion.

What is optimal implementation?

You want to get one Traveler out of the vulnerable range and up to Champion ASAP so that your opponents' Warriors become ineffective.  Also, until all of the players have gotten Heroes, I would continue to upgrade Pages/THs toward Warrior as quickly as possible, because every Warrior you gain is a Warrior not available to your opponents, and your Warriors become attacking Labs once you have your Champion.

As soon as the Warrior pile empties, the race is over, and you should probably stop buying/upgrading Pages.

[Accatitippi]

After a grand total of one game with Page, I have developed this hypothesis:
Champion+Warrior is generally awful draw, because each "lab" you buy comes with about one stop card (Silver), and thus you'll never ever draw your deck. Warriors don't really help your Engine run, they are more akin to activated Conspirators, increasing your coin payload without clogging your Engine. If you want draw in a champion Engine, Moat will serve you much better than Page.

[markusin]

After a grand total of one game with Page, I have developed this hypothesis:
Champion+Warrior is generally awful draw, because each "lab" you buy comes with about one stop card (Silver), and thus you'll never ever draw your deck. Warriors don't really help your Engine run, they are more akin to activated Conspirators, increasing your coin payload without clogging your Engine. If you want draw in a champion Engine, Moat will serve you much better than Page.

The other problem is that there are only 5 Warriors. If the Warriors are contested, you may only get 2-3 of them. Hardly enough for a draw engine.

[JThorne]

Warriors don't really help your Engine run...If the Warriors are contested, you may only get 2-3 of them. Hardly enough for a draw engine.

Well, they certainly help more than Treasure Hunters or Heroes! +2 cards is better than 0 (actually, -1 since they both gain treasure!) The point is, if you buy multiple Pages, upgrade one to Champ and the rest to Warrior, whatever that number is.

Sure, you could buy only one Page, planning on playing Champion + lots of terminal draw cards that are better than the +2 from Warrior, but if your opponent is buying Pages, you had better hope their Warrior doesn't hit your Treasure Hunter or Warrior or your game is completely over. Better to have a little bit of insurance that turns into a Lab than be dead in the water.

Are there other things you can do with the Page path? Sure, there are always edge cases. Treasure hunter/Feodum might be a thing, except for Warriors trashing...um...everything in your deck. Hero/Remodel might be a thing to gain Gold/Platinum and remodel to Province/Colony. But I submit that Champ/leftover Warriors should be the most common way to play this path barring something unusual.

I'm not buying the idea of upgrading all of the leftovers to Heroes. Sure, you can gain a lot of platinum, but even a hand of 4 platinum only buys one Colony, barring a Workshop/Nomad Camp/Messenger in the same hand, and if you're playing a bunch of Travellers too, should your luckiest possible hand be a hand with none of them in it? One Platinum is enough to buy a Colony a turn with halfway decent draw. If you want multiple buys, you need a reliable draw engine, not more big money.

One more thing: As great as Champ is with terminal draw, it's a delicate balancing act. You can't exactly buy four Smithies and just wait around for your Champ.

[Accatitippi]

Warriors don't really help your Engine run...If the Warriors are contested, you may only get 2-3 of them. Hardly enough for a draw engine.

Well, they certainly help more than Treasure Hunters or Heroes! +2 cards is better than 0 (actually, -1 since they both gain treasure!) The point is, if you buy multiple Pages, upgrade one to Champ and the rest to Warrior, whatever that number is.

Sure, you could buy only one Page, planning on playing Champion + lots of terminal draw cards that are better than the +2 from Warrior, but if your opponent is buying Pages, you had better hope their Warrior doesn't hit your Treasure Hunter or Warrior or your game is completely over. Better to have a little bit of insurance that turns into a Lab than be dead in the water.

Are there other things you can do with the Page path? Sure, there are always edge cases. Treasure hunter/Feodum might be a thing, except for Warriors trashing...um...everything in your deck. Hero/Remodel might be a thing to gain Gold/Platinum and remodel to Province/Colony. But I submit that Champ/leftover Warriors should be the most common way to play this path barring something unusual.

I'm not buying the idea of upgrading all of the leftovers to Heroes. Sure, you can gain a lot of platinum, but even a hand of 4 platinum only buys one Colony, barring a Workshop/Nomad Camp/Messenger in the same hand, and if you're playing a bunch of Travellers too, should your luckiest possible hand be a hand with none of them in it? One Platinum is enough to buy a Colony a turn with halfway decent draw. If you want multiple buys, you need a reliable draw engine, not more big money.

One more thing: As great as Champ is with terminal draw, it's a delicate balancing act. You can't exactly buy four Smithies and just wait around for your Champ.

I'm not arguing about where to stop your Pages (I think Champion+Warrior is most often right), rather I'm replying to this kind of posts:

Also, until all of the players have gotten Heroes, I would continue to upgrade Pages/THs toward Warrior as quickly as possible, because every Warrior you gain is a Warrior not available to your opponents, and your Warriors become attacking Labs once you have your Champion.

Warrior is definitely the second-coolest card in the Page line, and getting two Pages to be safe is probably right, but I challenge the view that buying lots of Pages is good because Warrior and then Warrior+Champion are awesome.
I don't really think the Page line is the best use of Champion's +Actions, and I think 2 Pages are probably plenty in 2p games, if what you're interested in is Champion+Engine.

[Limetime]

I think that champion beats champion warrior.
I mean if you opponent is going hard for menagerie warehouse then sure but it is hard to get that many warriors in play if you have a whole bunch of silver in deck. It  I think if opponent doesn't go for champion and warrior hurts enough by all means go for it.

[Elestan]

Also, until all of the players have gotten Heroes, I would continue to upgrade Pages/THs toward Warrior as quickly as possible, because every Warrior you gain is a Warrior not available to your opponents, and your Warriors become attacking Labs once you have your Champion.

Warrior is definitely the second-coolest card in the Page line, and getting two Pages to be safe is probably right, but I challenge the view that buying lots of Pages is good because Warrior and then Warrior+Champion are awesome.
I don't really think the Page line is the best use of Champion's +Actions, and I think 2 Pages are probably plenty in 2p games, if what you're interested in is Champion+Engine.

The Champion/Warrior engine is actually just the most convenient means to an end in this strategy.  The primary goal is trying to cut your opponents off from getting their own Champions, by getting one of your own, and owning and/or trashing all of the Warriors.  If you can do this, you have a huge advantage for the rest of the game, with unlimited Actions and the ability to trash most of your opponents' 3-4 cost cards.  As soon as you know you've failed (usually because an opponent exchanges for a Hero), you need to re-evaluate and probably pick a new gambit to play.

[Limetime]

Also, until all of the players have gotten Heroes, I would continue to upgrade Pages/THs toward Warrior as quickly as possible, because every Warrior you gain is a Warrior not available to your opponents, and your Warriors become attacking Labs once you have your Champion.

Warrior is definitely the second-coolest card in the Page line, and getting two Pages to be safe is probably right, but I challenge the view that buying lots of Pages is good because Warrior and then Warrior+Champion are awesome.
I don't really think the Page line is the best use of Champion's +Actions, and I think 2 Pages are probably plenty in 2p games, if what you're interested in is Champion+Engine.

The Champion/Warrior engine is actually just the most convenient means to an end in this strategy.  The primary goal is trying to cut your opponents off from getting their own Champions, by getting one of your own, and owning and/or trashing all of the Warriors.  If you can do this, you have a huge advantage for the rest of the game, with unlimited Actions and the ability to trash most of your opponents' 3-4 cost cards.  As soon as you know you've failed (usually because an opponent exchanges for a Hero), you need to re-evaluate and probably pick a new gambit to play.

Unless if you're opponent gets really unlucky/ doesn't pursue champion till later then they should get champion before your warriors come online.
Forced silver gain should punish the warrior player enough that they can't get enough plays of warrior in.
Edit: I played warrior champion against a much worse player who played  something close to vault bm with inheritance. I lost big time. It was even a colony game.

[JThorne]

Warrior is definitely the second-coolest card in the Page line, and getting two Pages to be safe is probably right, but I challenge the view that buying lots of Pages is good because Warrior and then Warrior+Champion are awesome.

Agreed. The Attack of Warrior is only useful early before your opponent gets his Champ. After that, it's "just" a spare Lab. That is, not bad, but not a strategy on its own. Pipe dreams of trashing your opponents deck are a trap. Getting to Champ is the priority, and in the meantime, you have to stumble over terminals that give you treasure. Ick. But...

What if you plan ahead on this "unwanted" treasure appearing, you don't have to buy any and can focus more energy on trashing while your Travellers do their work, making things like Bonfire and Forager particularly good. Just throwing some numbers out there, Let's say you buy four Pages. You can quickly find yourself with a deck containing 4 silvers, 3 coppers, 1 Gold, a Champion on board, three Warriors, and let's say a terminal Silver+buy that you bought early, and a generic Smithy that you picked up along the way. That's exactly 14 cards in your deck (and one on the table!) and exactly 16 coin, two buys, and 9 cards of drawing power, which is enough to draw your whole deck starting with a high chance of having 2 draw cards in your starting hand. And you didn't have to buy any of that treasure.

The question is: Is it faster to buy other terminal draw cards or other non-Travelers rather than the 3-4 Pages knowing that you will also have to buy the treasure you need to get the double buy along the way somewhere?

I genuinely don't know the answer. How good are the simulators at answering this sort of question?

[Elestan]

The Attack of Warrior is only useful early before your opponent gets his Champ. After that, it's "just" a spare Lab. That is, not bad, but not a strategy on its own. Pipe dreams of trashing your opponents deck are a trap.

I've probably played a dozen or so games with Page at this point, and the Champion/Warrior opening strategy nearly always trounces anything else.

Part of the different in what we're seeing could be the result of the number of players.  I almost always play 3-4 player IRL games, so each Warrior played looks at 2x-3x the number of cards it would in 2P.  This significantly increases the chances of successfully trashing other Warriors and cutting players off from the later Travellers.

[gkrieg13]

The Attack of Warrior is only useful early before your opponent gets his Champ. After that, it's "just" a spare Lab. That is, not bad, but not a strategy on its own. Pipe dreams of trashing your opponents deck are a trap.

I've probably played a dozen or so games with Page at this point, and the Champion/Warrior opening strategy nearly always trounces anything else.

Part of the different in what we're seeing could be the result of the number of players.  I almost always play 3-4 player IRL games, so each Warrior played looks at 2x-3x the number of cards it would in 2P.  This significantly increases the chances of successfully trashing other Warriors and cutting players off from the later Travellers.

Even in 2p it is a pretty dominant strategy.  If you get +buy and a trasher, you have everything else from the page line for a great engine.

[Limetime]

The Attack of Warrior is only useful early before your opponent gets his Champ. After that, it's "just" a spare Lab. That is, not bad, but not a strategy on its own. Pipe dreams of trashing your opponents deck are a trap.

I've probably played a dozen or so games with Page at this point, and the Champion/Warrior opening strategy nearly always trounces anything else.

Part of the different in what we're seeing could be the result of the number of players.  I almost always play 3-4 player IRL games, so each Warrior played looks at 2x-3x the number of cards it would in 2P.  This significantly increases the chances of successfully trashing other Warriors and cutting players off from the later Travellers.

Even in 2p it is a pretty dominant strategy.  If you get +buy and a trasher, you have everything else from the page line for a great engine.

You would prefer to be drawing by cheaper cards such as moat

[drsteelhammer]

Talking about cheaper cards: In one Page game I opened Page/chapel which is probably the first 2/2 opening I have ever done.

[kungapa]

Warrior + Champion (and a ton of pages to boost your warriors) + storyteller can be an extremely powerful engine.

The storyteller makes use of all those silvers you had to pick up - so you get through your deck fast, and then sift through the deck with warrior.

[Chris is me]

Warrior + Champion (and a ton of pages to boost your warriors) + storyteller can be an extremely powerful engine.

The storyteller makes use of all those silvers you had to pick up - so you get through your deck fast, and then sift through the deck with warrior.

If you have Storyteller already to turn Treasures into draw, why not just get more Warriors?

Anybody that just lets you set up a Warrior attack strategy without themselves going for Champion deserves to lose. It really isn't that good of a strategy when you both get Champion up.

[Limetime]

After quite a few games with these travelers I think peasant is a bit better than page(you probably want both if both are available)

[Beyond Awesome]

Teacher is slow. I really like Disciple though. I think overall, Page is better, but  not much