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[Doctor_J]

With cards that cause other players to reveal cards, such as Thief or Spy, does that occur before or after the other players deal their new hands?

In the normal flow of play, I play an action, do my buy phase, then clean up. If the next player then plays Thief, does their effect occur before or after I get my new hand. If it occurs before I get my new hand, then how does that apply to cards like Militia which by necessity must occur after I get my new hand.

So far we have played the effect after the effected player drew their new hand.

Thoughts?

Thanks again!

[AJD]

With cards that cause other players to reveal cards, such as Thief or Spy, does that occur before or after the other players deal their new hands?

In the normal flow of play, I play an action, do my buy phase, then clean up. If the next player then plays Thief, does their effect occur before or after I get my new hand. If it occurs before I get my new hand, then how does that apply to cards like Militia which by necessity must occur after I get my new hand.

So far we have played the effect after the effected player drew their new hand.

You always get your new hand at the end of your turn. So, by the time someone is playing a Spy or whatever, you've already got your new hand dealt.

[jonts26]

Yes, you always draw your new hand right after you finish your old turn. This is particularly relevant with something like Militia. If I didn't draw a hand before I got attacked, what would I discard?

[PettyThiefLout]

If you read the rules carefully, dealing your new hand is technically part of the clean up phase, which is completed before the next person's turn.

[Doctor_J]

Thanks again. The question only came up after a couple of hand where the person playing the Thief card would have gotten another player's gold card had the effect occurred prior to dealing the new hand.

Thanks!

[Tydude]

While we're on this topic of revealing cards, do you reveal cards that you discard? For example, when another player plays a Militia or even during my clean up phase? It doesn't do so on Isotropic, but certain cards like Jester simply say "discard the top card" and assume it's been revealed.

[jonts26]

The Base set rules explicitly say that the opponents can always see the top card of your discard pile. So if you discard only a single card, the opponent will know what it is. If you discard two to say, militia, or even your entire hand during the cleanup phase, they can only ever see one of the cards that was discarded.

[glasser]

Note that for some reason Isotropic reveals all cards you discard with Secret Chamber and Vault, but there's no obvious rule basis for that.

[Kuildeous]

Thanks again. The question only came up after a couple of hand where the person playing the Thief card would have gotten another player's gold card had the effect occurred prior to dealing the new hand.

This happened to us a lot as newbies. I still see it when I introduce new players to the game. Something gets revealed and then the player realizes that it should have been part of his hand. And if that is a Thief revealing a Gold, that can cause his hopes to be dashed (but relief for the player who revealed the Gold).

Something else to consider is revealing interaction cards too quickly. Say I finish a turn and am shuffling my deck. Player A plays Torturer. I grumble as I finish shuffling my deck. Player A continues playing, since my decision to take a Curse or discard does not affect his play. Player B then begins his turn and plays Torturer as well. I just finished shuffling my deck and draw my five new cards. Now I know that I'm looking at two Torturers. If Player B had waited until I resolved Player A's Torturer, he could have really hurt me. Instead, I can plan ahead and probably just take 1 Curse and then discard it and one other card, which might not have happened if I didn't know the second Torturer was coming.

That's not really related to when you draw your hand. It just serves to remind that players should wait until the rest of the group has completed their tasks (unless, of course, it really doesn't matter).

[Anon79]

On the other hand:

Player A plays Torturer. Kuildeous grumbles, shuffles. Player A ends turn, Player B begins turn.
Player B looks expectantly at Kuildeous, waiting for him to discard or gain Curse.
Player A: "Why aren't you playing?" Kuildeous: "Hmm... can I safely guess another Torturer is coming?"

[ftl]

That's exactly an argument in favor of ALWAYS waiting for the reaction to happen before moving on, then you can't use whether you're being waited for or not to gauge what's going to happen.

[GendoIkari]

That's exactly an argument in favor of ALWAYS waiting for the reaction to happen before moving on, then you can't use whether you're being waited for or not to gauge what's going to happen.

Not that it almost ever matters, but that's a "flaw" in Isotropic... when a player plays an attack, or a Tournament, (or even just buys an Embassy, giving out a silver), if the other player has a reaction to that, Iso will let the first player know that, because it will say "waiting for player." This gives the player information about the other player's hand that he wouldn't otherwise have (unless the other player chose to reveal the reaction anyway).

[Kuildeous]

On the other hand:

Player A plays Torturer. Kuildeous grumbles, shuffles. Player A ends turn, Player B begins turn.
Player B looks expectantly at Kuildeous, waiting for him to discard or gain Curse.
Player A: "Why aren't you playing?" Kuildeous: "Hmm... can I safely guess another Torturer is coming?"

That's where you can be a bit on the shrewd side and screw with the other players. To properly combat this, there needs to be at least one instance of this:

Me: I'm done with my turn. *shuffles deck to draw 5 new cards*
Player A: I play Torturer, buy stuff, and am done.
Me: *grumbles while shuffling*
Player A: Aren't you going to play, Player B?
Player B: I'm just waiting for him to finish shuffling and resolve your Torturer.
Me: Fine, I'm done shuffling. So, you're going to play a Torturer too? I'll just take my Curse from Player A.
Player B: Actually, I have no actions. I'll just buy a Province.
Me: *hateragemustkillkillkill*

Of course, I do tend to be a dick in games, so I totally had that coming.