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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts  (Read 4551 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2016, 12:41:23 pm »
0

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

Interestingly, Wharf actually gains les from this than other cards because it is a duration. Consider Wharf vs Margrave with Lost Arts. You will probably be able to draw your deck with both of them. Margrave gives +3 cards per turn, while Wharf gives +2 cards this turn and +3 cards next turn, so on average only 2.5 cards per turn, which is roughly the same as putting the token on Ranger.

It's still really good because Wharf is such a good card to begin with, but in general you'd prefer to put this on non-durations.

Huh?  How does Wharf become +3 cards next turn?  This is the +action token.  Even if we were talking about the +card token, it triggers on this turn, not next turn.
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2016, 12:43:47 pm »
+1

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

Interestingly, Wharf actually gains les from this than other cards because it is a duration. Consider Wharf vs Margrave with Lost Arts. You will probably be able to draw your deck with both of them. Margrave gives +3 cards per turn, while Wharf gives +2 cards this turn and +3 cards next turn, so on average only 2.5 cards per turn, which is roughly the same as putting the token on Ranger.

It's still really good because Wharf is such a good card to begin with, but in general you'd prefer to put this on non-durations.

Huh?  How does Wharf become +3 cards next turn?  This is the +action token.  Even if we were talking about the +card token, it triggers on this turn, not next turn.

What he is saying is that the Duration effect of Wharf results in the same net hand size as playing a +3 Cards draw card. "+2 Cards next turn" should be thought of similarly as an action that you played this turn that drew you 3 cards. It's confusing terminology (and, like, wrong objectively) for sure, but for some players it is a better understanding than "wow Wharf is just two Moats???"
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singletee

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2016, 12:48:08 pm »
+1

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

Interestingly, Wharf actually gains les from this than other cards because it is a duration. Consider Wharf vs Margrave with Lost Arts. You will probably be able to draw your deck with both of them. Margrave gives +3 cards per turn, while Wharf gives +2 cards this turn and +3 cards next turn, so on average only 2.5 cards per turn, which is roughly the same as putting the token on Ranger.

It's still really good because Wharf is such a good card to begin with, but in general you'd prefer to put this on non-durations.

Huh?  How does Wharf become +3 cards next turn?  This is the +action token.  Even if we were talking about the +card token, it triggers on this turn, not next turn.

What he is saying is that the Duration effect of Wharf results in the same net hand size as playing a +3 Cards draw card. "+2 Cards next turn" should be thought of similarly as an action that you played this turn that drew you 3 cards. It's confusing terminology (and, like, wrong objectively) for sure, but for some players it is a better understanding than "wow Wharf is just two Moats???"

I took it to refer to the fact that Wharf is not in your deck next turn, making one fewer card you have to draw in order to draw your deck.

eHalcyon

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2016, 12:57:35 pm »
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Oh, OK then.

I think the simpler argument re: tokens on durations is that you'll only get their benefit every other turn per card and that the first turn effect is often relatively weak because the power is in the next turn.  It's more effective to use tokens on cards which you'll play more often and that are more powerful from the start.  But there are still times when the token may be most effective on a duration, e.g. when you're not drawing your deck anyway.  I can see +action on Wharf as being a good choice pretty often.

Also, the draw from Wharf is bigger than Ranger if you count cards drawn per play.  If I have 4 copies, Wharf will draw 16 cards (20 if you use that odd way of counting) while Ranger only draws 10.  They only become similar if you are drawing your deck every turn.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 01:02:17 pm by eHalcyon »
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Davio

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2016, 03:25:14 am »
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Duration cards have an implicit +1 Action for the next turn.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2016, 08:59:10 am »
+2

Wharf: Moat with +Buy this turn, Non-discarding-Warehouse-with+Buy next turn.

Clearly the best way to think about it.
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BBL

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2017, 02:41:43 pm »
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Lost Arts + Cultist is actually quite neat, as it turns the cultists into villages (or splitters, as the cool kids say).
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2017, 01:51:36 pm »
+2

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2017, 04:26:38 pm »
+3

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.
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mameluke

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2017, 01:20:39 am »
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Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.

But then you can only play one Poor House, or Bridge, or whatever. Is the argument that it's better just to put it on Smithy and use Treasure as payload for better turn-to-turn reliability?
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AJD

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2017, 02:04:58 am »
+2

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.

But then you can only play one Poor House, or Bridge, or whatever. Is the argument that it's better just to put it on Smithy and use Treasure as payload for better turn-to-turn reliability?

No, the argument is that it's better to put Lost Arts on Smithy so you can draw all your villages and Poor Houses and then play them, rather than having to find your villages first before you play your Smithy so that you can then play your Lost-Artsy Bridges.
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2017, 07:55:27 am »
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Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.

But then you can only play one Poor House, or Bridge, or whatever. Is the argument that it's better just to put it on Smithy and use Treasure as payload for better turn-to-turn reliability?

No, the argument is that it's better to put Lost Arts on Smithy so you can draw all your villages and Poor Houses and then play them, rather than having to find your villages first before you play your Smithy so that you can then play your Lost-Artsy Bridges.

Yes. Additionally, if there are no Villages, you probably donít want to play a ďspam Bridge and hope you have two or three in your hand at onceĒ strategy rather than ďdraw your deck terminally and have a Bridge at the endĒ.

Nonterminal draw or neutral-sifting changes this, of course, as a notable edge case
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aku_chi

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2017, 08:43:18 am »
+1

You can also put the Lost Arts on the non-terminal draw, which is usually better than putting it on the terminal payload.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2017, 08:45:00 am »
+1

My philosophy is to just put it on the pile you want your deck to be playing the most cards from, that way you get the most extra actions. Which is more often draw than payload since you need a bunch of draw cards to draw your whole deck.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2017, 09:21:57 am »
+1

If there are enough splitters in the kingdom, I would usually prioritize Lost Artsing draw over payload even if I need to be playing fewer draw than payload cards for the reason described by AJD.

Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2017, 09:34:09 am »
+2

My philosophy is to just put it on the pile you want your deck to be playing the most cards from, that way you get the most extra actions. Which is more often draw than payload since you need a bunch of draw cards to draw your whole deck.

Even if draw cards arenít the terminal you have the most of, itís way easier to line up Village + Payload in a huge hand than it is to line up Village + Draw in a small hand.
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4est

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2017, 10:13:48 am »
+3

I can't find the game # at the moment, but I had a Lost Arts game a few weeks ago where my opponent put Lost Arts on Bridge while I put it on Patrol.  They won the Bridge split 6-4 (maybe even 7-3), but were never able to connect more than 3 Bridges at a time, while I was drawing my deck every turn and could reliably green and pile out. 

Especially in games with other sources of +Actions, it's almost always better to put Lost Arts on your draw than on your payload. 
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trivialknot

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2017, 11:05:12 am »
+1

Lost Arts on Poor House is great.  What it needs is:
1. No draw OR no other splitters.
2. A source of +Buy.
3. A way to trash treasures.
4. Some way to hit $6 early, especially since Poor House doesn't help you do it.

People are comparing it to Bridge.  Why are you comparing it to Bridge?  Poor House isn't like Bridge.  Bridge payload increases quadratically with the number of Bridges.  Poor House payload increases linearly.  If you play 2-3 Poor Houses a turn, that's fine.
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crj

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2017, 02:54:07 pm »
0

I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the humble Steward. I once played a game in which I bought almost nothing else: once you've added Lost Arts, it's thinning, payload and engine in a single cheap card. Add a bit of +Buy and you're sorted.

Another option is to put Lost Arts on a throne. If you throne terminal draw with Lost Arts on the terminal draw, you don't really need +2 Actions, whereas Lost Arts on the throne itself can help string together payload once you've drawn and/or leave you swimming in actions when you throne a throne. Specifically, I've had a lot of fun putting Lost Arts on Procession on a board with strong $5s that are already cantrips.
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josh56

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2017, 05:16:41 pm »
0

I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the humble Steward. I once played a game in which I bought almost nothing else: once you've added Lost Arts, it's thinning, payload and engine in a single cheap card. Add a bit of +Buy and you're sorted.
I guess that's because Lost Arts is arguably best with terminal draw cards anyway. The particular advantage of Steward is unlike other +2 Cards variants you want one or two early for trashing anyway. So even on board without extra buys it could be a Lost Arts target (whereas cards like Moat or Oracle might not be).
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mameluke

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2017, 06:22:41 pm »
0

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.

But then you can only play one Poor House, or Bridge, or whatever. Is the argument that it's better just to put it on Smithy and use Treasure as payload for better turn-to-turn reliability?

No, the argument is that it's better to put Lost Arts on Smithy so you can draw all your villages and Poor Houses and then play them, rather than having to find your villages first before you play your Smithy so that you can then play your Lost-Artsy Bridges.

I guess my assumption was that there would be no villages in the kingdom. I agree otherwise. I also suppose on the circumstance that you really want to play two different terminal payload cards and there are no villages, you'd need to put Lost Arts on one of them.
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