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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts  (Read 5180 times)

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werothegreat

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Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« on: February 28, 2016, 09:28:09 am »
+4


The first of the four token Events, giving +1 Action to a card pile.
-How quickly do you want to get this?
-What Actions are the best targets for Lost Arts?
-How does it compare to the other token Events, and Teacher?
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 09:31:28 am »
0

Pretty beast event. This pairs well with terminal draw especially if it cost less than 5.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 09:37:13 am »
+1

My guess is that on most random boards this will be the most useful token event. There are definitely boards in which the +1 card or +1 buy may be more valuable, but I feel this is much less common than the amazing utility of making a terminal action non-terminal.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 10:59:22 am »
+1

This is killer with Ranger.
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2016, 11:14:54 am »
0

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2016, 11:42:18 am »
+4

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

I feel like +4 cards, +1 action, +2 buys is generally better than +5 cards, +1 action.
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2016, 12:10:41 pm »
0

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

I feel like +4 cards, +1 action, +2 buys is generally better than +5 cards, +1 action.

Well, it depends on whether or not you already have +Buy.  If Market (Square) is in the Kingdom, then I'd throw Lost Arts on Smithy every time.  If Ranger is the best source of +Buy, I'd probably token that.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2016, 12:15:31 pm »
+2

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

I feel like +4 cards, +1 action, +2 buys is generally better than +5 cards, +1 action.

Well, it depends on whether or not you already have +Buy.  If Market (Square) is in the Kingdom, then I'd throw Lost Arts on Smithy every time.  If Ranger is the best source of +Buy, I'd probably token that.

You need to spend buys to acquire those Market( Square)s. It's faster to build an engine with Rangers if you can do it consistently enough that way.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2016, 01:00:54 pm »
+1

Using Lost Arts on Bridge Troll is a lot of fun. Maybe even more so on Bridge itself.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2016, 01:02:05 pm »
0

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

I feel like +4 cards, +1 action, +2 buys is generally better than +5 cards, +1 action.

Well, it depends on whether or not you already have +Buy.  If Market (Square) is in the Kingdom, then I'd throw Lost Arts on Smithy every time.  If Ranger is the best source of +Buy, I'd probably token that.

You need to spend buys to acquire those Market( Square)s. It's faster to build an engine with Rangers if you can do it consistently enough that way.

Plus even if Market (Square) is on the board or something, having extra buys gives you more pile control. Two or three extra buys could mean the difference between being able to pile out Estates and not being able to.

Lost Arts in Smithy is more reliable for draw. If you only have a single Ranger in hand and need two more plays of Ranger to get draw then you have a dud hand that wouldn't have happened if the Ranger was a Smithy instead.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2016, 01:58:40 pm »
+1

The best target for lost arts is vanilla village.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2016, 02:33:40 pm »
+6

The best target for lost arts is vanilla village tactician.

FTFY

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2016, 03:02:30 pm »
+3

My guess is that on most random boards this will be the most useful token event. There are definitely boards in which the +1 card or +1 buy may be more valuable, but I feel this is much less common than the amazing utility of making a terminal action non-terminal.
I disagree.  Lost Arts is only bonkers in the presence of terminal draw.  Terminal draw is present in 50-70% of kingdoms, depending on how far you want to stretch the category (is Witch terminal draw?  Is Watchtower?).  In the remaining kingdoms, ~70% have action splitters.  There probably exist some boards with villages but without terminal draw where it is worth it to get Lost Arts (Stables + Bridge, for example), but I think these are in the minority.  While Lost Arts is usually a must-buy in the presence of terminal draw, this isn't always the case.  I recently played an game with Lost Arts, Nobles, and Fishing Village.  One of my opponents got Lost Arts on Nobles, but the rest of us got Fishing Villages and Nobles and skipped Lost Arts.  Neither approach dominated the other.

On the other hand, Pathfinding is good on almost every board: it turns any cantrip+ into a Lab+.  ~25% of all kingdom cards are cantrip+, so there is almost always at least one in the kingdom.  Indeed, there is usually more than one cantrip worth buying; so it's more likely that you (and your opponent) can acquire more than 5 copies of your Pathfinding target.  8 coins is much harder to spike, but it is trivial to add cantrips to your deck while you build up to 8 coins.  Then, you spike 8 midgame and immediately increase your deck's nonterminal draw by 5+ cards.  There are some boards where Pathfinding might not be worth it: VP rushes and some slogs, but it is worth a purchase more often than Lost Arts, IMO.

I think Lost Arts is the better card, though, because of how game-warping it can be with cards like Ranger, Smithy, Margrave, and Torturer.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2016, 03:19:07 pm »
+1

I haven't tried it yet, but I'm curious how it plays with Draw-up-to-X variants as kind of a pseudo Minion. Would combo well with Oasis, Artificer, Candlestick Maker, or in the presence of villages, cards like Secret Chamber and especially Storeroom.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2016, 03:33:46 pm »
+3

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

You can't think of Ranger in terms of average draw like that at all. +5 cards on the first play is soooo much better than +3 cards on the first play. With Lost Arts, it removes the drawback of using two terminal slots on it, so you can basically always have it flipped the right way to start your turn. Not to mention +Buy.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2016, 11:24:43 pm »
+2

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

You can't think of Ranger in terms of average draw like that at all. +5 cards on the first play is soooo much better than +3 cards on the first play. With Lost Arts, it removes the drawback of using two terminal slots on it, so you can basically always have it flipped the right way to start your turn. Not to mention +Buy.

But if you whiff a turn and have the token start on the wrong side to start the next turn, +0 cards on the first play is soooo much worse than +3 cards on the first play.  So Smithy will usually be more reliable.

Also note that you can easily add another Smithy to increase your draw immediately, but adding another Ranger can make things wonky because you'll want to keep them paired.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2016, 12:26:08 am »
0

Can you guys leave the ranger talk until we open a thread about it?  We want to keep this thread on topic! :P
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2016, 01:24:37 am »
0

Do you go for this on a board with Champion?
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2016, 02:04:41 am »
+5

Do you go for this on a board with Champion?
In that game vs. SCSN, I put Lost Arts on Gear despite already being on the path towards Champion. And I did get Champion anyway, and I won, although I had a lot more experience with Adventures than he had.

It felt like I was only going to get a couple turns of value out of that Lost Arts; still, it was a lot of value on those turns.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2016, 04:37:33 am »
+2

The cool thing about Lost Arts is that it can turn a non-engine board into an engine board.

Sometimes you scan a board and see a lot of cool cards, but no actions and it makes you pretty sad.
This is a neat potential fix for those kinds of boards.

Just having the option to buy it and get those +Actions is a great addition to many boards.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2016, 12:52:50 pm »
0

Can you guys leave the ranger talk until we open a thread about it?  We want to keep this thread on topic! :P

Well, the context is terminal draw after being Lost Arts'd so it fits here. :P
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2016, 02:42:49 pm »
+3

Do you go for this on a board with Champion?

In a way going for this on a Champion board is much better than adding Villages, even though you can only make one card nonterminal. The huge downside about Champion that lots of people seem to just ignore is that either you have to build a partial engine that becomes useless once you hit Champion, or you have to hold off on firing your engine until Champion is in play. In some cases the game is more than half over at this point! Lost Arts on your best draw card gives you a temporary solution that lets you cycle faster while making sure you can upgrade your terminal Traveler when you draw it. Fewer wasted buys / gains, more efficiency in those couple of turns.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2016, 03:05:38 pm »
+1

Pretty baller event.  Not much else to say.  The less +Actions there are, the better this event is.  I can see it being especially useful in games where:
- There are chainable terminal attacks -- Rabble, Torturer
- I would typically spend $6 for a Necropolis Nobles
- Necropolis, Dame Molly, and Trusty Steed are the only +Actions

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2016, 08:35:38 pm »
0

We once played a 3p game with Lost Arts, Torturer, and no trashers. One player got Lost Arts a full turn ahead of us; we surrendered a few turns later. She still brags about it.

Overall, I like Lost Arts a lot. In my experience it is mandatory a little less often than Pathfinding, but that's not saying much. If Lost Arts is on the board, you can almost certainly build a good engine.

Choosing a good target is usually easy. The most complicated choice is when to buy the event vs. more of your planned recipient card.

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2016, 06:48:19 am »
+3

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

Interestingly, Wharf actually gains les from this than other cards because it is a duration. Consider Wharf vs Margrave with Lost Arts. You will probably be able to draw your deck with both of them. Margrave gives +3 cards per turn, while Wharf gives +2 cards this turn and +3 cards next turn, so on average only 2.5 cards per turn, which is roughly the same as putting the token on Ranger.

It's still really good because Wharf is such a good card to begin with, but in general you'd prefer to put this on non-durations.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2016, 12:41:23 pm »
0

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

Interestingly, Wharf actually gains les from this than other cards because it is a duration. Consider Wharf vs Margrave with Lost Arts. You will probably be able to draw your deck with both of them. Margrave gives +3 cards per turn, while Wharf gives +2 cards this turn and +3 cards next turn, so on average only 2.5 cards per turn, which is roughly the same as putting the token on Ranger.

It's still really good because Wharf is such a good card to begin with, but in general you'd prefer to put this on non-durations.

Huh?  How does Wharf become +3 cards next turn?  This is the +action token.  Even if we were talking about the +card token, it triggers on this turn, not next turn.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2016, 12:43:47 pm »
+1

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

Interestingly, Wharf actually gains les from this than other cards because it is a duration. Consider Wharf vs Margrave with Lost Arts. You will probably be able to draw your deck with both of them. Margrave gives +3 cards per turn, while Wharf gives +2 cards this turn and +3 cards next turn, so on average only 2.5 cards per turn, which is roughly the same as putting the token on Ranger.

It's still really good because Wharf is such a good card to begin with, but in general you'd prefer to put this on non-durations.

Huh?  How does Wharf become +3 cards next turn?  This is the +action token.  Even if we were talking about the +card token, it triggers on this turn, not next turn.

What he is saying is that the Duration effect of Wharf results in the same net hand size as playing a +3 Cards draw card. "+2 Cards next turn" should be thought of similarly as an action that you played this turn that drew you 3 cards. It's confusing terminology (and, like, wrong objectively) for sure, but for some players it is a better understanding than "wow Wharf is just two Moats???"
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2016, 12:48:08 pm »
+1

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

Interestingly, Wharf actually gains les from this than other cards because it is a duration. Consider Wharf vs Margrave with Lost Arts. You will probably be able to draw your deck with both of them. Margrave gives +3 cards per turn, while Wharf gives +2 cards this turn and +3 cards next turn, so on average only 2.5 cards per turn, which is roughly the same as putting the token on Ranger.

It's still really good because Wharf is such a good card to begin with, but in general you'd prefer to put this on non-durations.

Huh?  How does Wharf become +3 cards next turn?  This is the +action token.  Even if we were talking about the +card token, it triggers on this turn, not next turn.

What he is saying is that the Duration effect of Wharf results in the same net hand size as playing a +3 Cards draw card. "+2 Cards next turn" should be thought of similarly as an action that you played this turn that drew you 3 cards. It's confusing terminology (and, like, wrong objectively) for sure, but for some players it is a better understanding than "wow Wharf is just two Moats???"

I took it to refer to the fact that Wharf is not in your deck next turn, making one fewer card you have to draw in order to draw your deck.

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2016, 12:57:35 pm »
0

Oh, OK then.

I think the simpler argument re: tokens on durations is that you'll only get their benefit every other turn per card and that the first turn effect is often relatively weak because the power is in the next turn.  It's more effective to use tokens on cards which you'll play more often and that are more powerful from the start.  But there are still times when the token may be most effective on a duration, e.g. when you're not drawing your deck anyway.  I can see +action on Wharf as being a good choice pretty often.

Also, the draw from Wharf is bigger than Ranger if you count cards drawn per play.  If I have 4 copies, Wharf will draw 16 cards (20 if you use that odd way of counting) while Ranger only draws 10.  They only become similar if you are drawing your deck every turn.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 01:02:17 pm by eHalcyon »
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Davio

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2016, 03:25:14 am »
0

Duration cards have an implicit +1 Action for the next turn.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2016, 08:59:10 am »
+2

Wharf: Moat with +Buy this turn, Non-discarding-Warehouse-with+Buy next turn.

Clearly the best way to think about it.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2017, 02:41:43 pm »
0

Lost Arts + Cultist is actually quite neat, as it turns the cultists into villages (or splitters, as the cool kids say).
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2017, 01:51:36 pm »
+2

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2017, 04:26:38 pm »
+3

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.
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mameluke

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2017, 01:20:39 am »
0

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.

But then you can only play one Poor House, or Bridge, or whatever. Is the argument that it's better just to put it on Smithy and use Treasure as payload for better turn-to-turn reliability?
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2017, 02:04:58 am »
+2

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.

But then you can only play one Poor House, or Bridge, or whatever. Is the argument that it's better just to put it on Smithy and use Treasure as payload for better turn-to-turn reliability?

No, the argument is that it's better to put Lost Arts on Smithy so you can draw all your villages and Poor Houses and then play them, rather than having to find your villages first before you play your Smithy so that you can then play your Lost-Artsy Bridges.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2017, 07:55:27 am »
0

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.

But then you can only play one Poor House, or Bridge, or whatever. Is the argument that it's better just to put it on Smithy and use Treasure as payload for better turn-to-turn reliability?

No, the argument is that it's better to put Lost Arts on Smithy so you can draw all your villages and Poor Houses and then play them, rather than having to find your villages first before you play your Smithy so that you can then play your Lost-Artsy Bridges.

Yes. Additionally, if there are no Villages, you probably donít want to play a ďspam Bridge and hope you have two or three in your hand at onceĒ strategy rather than ďdraw your deck terminally and have a Bridge at the endĒ.

Nonterminal draw or neutral-sifting changes this, of course, as a notable edge case
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2017, 08:43:18 am »
+1

You can also put the Lost Arts on the non-terminal draw, which is usually better than putting it on the terminal payload.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2017, 08:45:00 am »
+1

My philosophy is to just put it on the pile you want your deck to be playing the most cards from, that way you get the most extra actions. Which is more often draw than payload since you need a bunch of draw cards to draw your whole deck.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2017, 09:21:57 am »
+1

If there are enough splitters in the kingdom, I would usually prioritize Lost Artsing draw over payload even if I need to be playing fewer draw than payload cards for the reason described by AJD.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2017, 09:34:09 am »
+2

My philosophy is to just put it on the pile you want your deck to be playing the most cards from, that way you get the most extra actions. Which is more often draw than payload since you need a bunch of draw cards to draw your whole deck.

Even if draw cards arenít the terminal you have the most of, itís way easier to line up Village + Payload in a huge hand than it is to line up Village + Draw in a small hand.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2017, 10:13:48 am »
+3

I can't find the game # at the moment, but I had a Lost Arts game a few weeks ago where my opponent put Lost Arts on Bridge while I put it on Patrol.  They won the Bridge split 6-4 (maybe even 7-3), but were never able to connect more than 3 Bridges at a time, while I was drawing my deck every turn and could reliably green and pile out. 

Especially in games with other sources of +Actions, it's almost always better to put Lost Arts on your draw than on your payload. 
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2017, 11:05:12 am »
+1

Lost Arts on Poor House is great.  What it needs is:
1. No draw OR no other splitters.
2. A source of +Buy.
3. A way to trash treasures.
4. Some way to hit $6 early, especially since Poor House doesn't help you do it.

People are comparing it to Bridge.  Why are you comparing it to Bridge?  Poor House isn't like Bridge.  Bridge payload increases quadratically with the number of Bridges.  Poor House payload increases linearly.  If you play 2-3 Poor Houses a turn, that's fine.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2017, 02:54:07 pm »
0

I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the humble Steward. I once played a game in which I bought almost nothing else: once you've added Lost Arts, it's thinning, payload and engine in a single cheap card. Add a bit of +Buy and you're sorted.

Another option is to put Lost Arts on a throne. If you throne terminal draw with Lost Arts on the terminal draw, you don't really need +2 Actions, whereas Lost Arts on the throne itself can help string together payload once you've drawn and/or leave you swimming in actions when you throne a throne. Specifically, I've had a lot of fun putting Lost Arts on Procession on a board with strong $5s that are already cantrips.
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2017, 05:16:41 pm »
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I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the humble Steward. I once played a game in which I bought almost nothing else: once you've added Lost Arts, it's thinning, payload and engine in a single cheap card. Add a bit of +Buy and you're sorted.
I guess that's because Lost Arts is arguably best with terminal draw cards anyway. The particular advantage of Steward is unlike other +2 Cards variants you want one or two early for trashing anyway. So even on board without extra buys it could be a Lost Arts target (whereas cards like Moat or Oracle might not be).
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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2017, 06:22:41 pm »
0

Um. This is a really amazing thing to put on Poor House in a game with trashing, because you can easily obtain lots of Poor Houses, and play several of them in a turn without having any treasure.

In general itís better to put Lost Arts on draw vs payload, but situationally this is cool I guess.

But then you can only play one Poor House, or Bridge, or whatever. Is the argument that it's better just to put it on Smithy and use Treasure as payload for better turn-to-turn reliability?

No, the argument is that it's better to put Lost Arts on Smithy so you can draw all your villages and Poor Houses and then play them, rather than having to find your villages first before you play your Smithy so that you can then play your Lost-Artsy Bridges.

I guess my assumption was that there would be no villages in the kingdom. I agree otherwise. I also suppose on the circumstance that you really want to play two different terminal payload cards and there are no villages, you'd need to put Lost Arts on one of them.
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