Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts  (Read 6197 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7979
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« on: February 28, 2016, 09:28:09 am »
+4


The first of the four token Events, giving +1 Action to a card pile.
-How quickly do you want to get this?
-What Actions are the best targets for Lost Arts?
-How does it compare to the other token Events, and Teacher?
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Limetime

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1232
  • Shuffle iT Username: limetime
  • Respect: +1165
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 09:31:28 am »
0

Pretty beast event. This pairs well with terminal draw especially if it cost less than 5.
Logged

theright555J

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
  • Dragged into engines kicking and screaming!
  • Respect: +171
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 09:37:13 am »
+1

My guess is that on most random boards this will be the most useful token event. There are definitely boards in which the +1 card or +1 buy may be more valuable, but I feel this is much less common than the amazing utility of making a terminal action non-terminal.
Logged
Wondering what my name refers to?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cribbage_statistics

mameluke

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 366
  • Respect: +433
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 10:59:22 am »
+1

This is killer with Ranger.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7979
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2016, 11:14:54 am »
0

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6820
  • Respect: +7665
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2016, 11:42:18 am »
+4

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

I feel like +4 cards, +1 action, +2 buys is generally better than +5 cards, +1 action.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7979
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2016, 12:10:41 pm »
0

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

I feel like +4 cards, +1 action, +2 buys is generally better than +5 cards, +1 action.

Well, it depends on whether or not you already have +Buy.  If Market (Square) is in the Kingdom, then I'd throw Lost Arts on Smithy every time.  If Ranger is the best source of +Buy, I'd probably token that.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10580
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11003
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2016, 12:15:31 pm »
+2

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

I feel like +4 cards, +1 action, +2 buys is generally better than +5 cards, +1 action.

Well, it depends on whether or not you already have +Buy.  If Market (Square) is in the Kingdom, then I'd throw Lost Arts on Smithy every time.  If Ranger is the best source of +Buy, I'd probably token that.

You need to spend buys to acquire those Market( Square)s. It's faster to build an engine with Rangers if you can do it consistently enough that way.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2863
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3567
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2016, 01:00:54 pm »
+1

Using Lost Arts on Bridge Troll is a lot of fun. Maybe even more so on Bridge itself.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3596
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2170
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2016, 01:02:05 pm »
0

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

I feel like +4 cards, +1 action, +2 buys is generally better than +5 cards, +1 action.

Well, it depends on whether or not you already have +Buy.  If Market (Square) is in the Kingdom, then I'd throw Lost Arts on Smithy every time.  If Ranger is the best source of +Buy, I'd probably token that.

You need to spend buys to acquire those Market( Square)s. It's faster to build an engine with Rangers if you can do it consistently enough that way.

Plus even if Market (Square) is on the board or something, having extra buys gives you more pile control. Two or three extra buys could mean the difference between being able to pile out Estates and not being able to.

Lost Arts in Smithy is more reliable for draw. If you only have a single Ranger in hand and need two more plays of Ranger to get draw then you have a dud hand that wouldn't have happened if the Ranger was a Smithy instead.
Logged

iguanaiguana

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • Respect: +1041
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2016, 01:58:40 pm »
+1

The best target for lost arts is vanilla village.
Logged
You are my favorite reptile.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

singletee

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 843
  • Shuffle iT Username: singletee
  • Gold, Silver, Copper, Let's Jam!
  • Respect: +1455
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2016, 02:33:40 pm »
+6

The best target for lost arts is vanilla village tactician.

FTFY

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 519
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1077
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2016, 03:02:30 pm »
+3

My guess is that on most random boards this will be the most useful token event. There are definitely boards in which the +1 card or +1 buy may be more valuable, but I feel this is much less common than the amazing utility of making a terminal action non-terminal.
I disagree.  Lost Arts is only bonkers in the presence of terminal draw.  Terminal draw is present in 50-70% of kingdoms, depending on how far you want to stretch the category (is Witch terminal draw?  Is Watchtower?).  In the remaining kingdoms, ~70% have action splitters.  There probably exist some boards with villages but without terminal draw where it is worth it to get Lost Arts (Stables + Bridge, for example), but I think these are in the minority.  While Lost Arts is usually a must-buy in the presence of terminal draw, this isn't always the case.  I recently played an game with Lost Arts, Nobles, and Fishing Village.  One of my opponents got Lost Arts on Nobles, but the rest of us got Fishing Villages and Nobles and skipped Lost Arts.  Neither approach dominated the other.

On the other hand, Pathfinding is good on almost every board: it turns any cantrip+ into a Lab+.  ~25% of all kingdom cards are cantrip+, so there is almost always at least one in the kingdom.  Indeed, there is usually more than one cantrip worth buying; so it's more likely that you (and your opponent) can acquire more than 5 copies of your Pathfinding target.  8 coins is much harder to spike, but it is trivial to add cantrips to your deck while you build up to 8 coins.  Then, you spike 8 midgame and immediately increase your deck's nonterminal draw by 5+ cards.  There are some boards where Pathfinding might not be worth it: VP rushes and some slogs, but it is worth a purchase more often than Lost Arts, IMO.

I think Lost Arts is the better card, though, because of how game-warping it can be with cards like Ranger, Smithy, Margrave, and Torturer.
Logged

mameluke

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 366
  • Respect: +433
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2016, 03:19:07 pm »
+1

I haven't tried it yet, but I'm curious how it plays with Draw-up-to-X variants as kind of a pseudo Minion. Would combo well with Oasis, Artificer, Candlestick Maker, or in the presence of villages, cards like Secret Chamber and especially Storeroom.
Logged

Chris is me

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2462
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3032
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2016, 03:33:46 pm »
+3

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

You can't think of Ranger in terms of average draw like that at all. +5 cards on the first play is soooo much better than +3 cards on the first play. With Lost Arts, it removes the drawback of using two terminal slots on it, so you can basically always have it flipped the right way to start your turn. Not to mention +Buy.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9136
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2016, 11:24:43 pm »
+2

This is killer with Ranger.

In terms of draw, Smithy is better - Smithy gives 3 Cards per play, Rangers gives only 2.5.  The one upside is that Ranger gives +Buy every play.

You can't think of Ranger in terms of average draw like that at all. +5 cards on the first play is soooo much better than +3 cards on the first play. With Lost Arts, it removes the drawback of using two terminal slots on it, so you can basically always have it flipped the right way to start your turn. Not to mention +Buy.

But if you whiff a turn and have the token start on the wrong side to start the next turn, +0 cards on the first play is soooo much worse than +3 cards on the first play.  So Smithy will usually be more reliable.

Also note that you can easily add another Smithy to increase your draw immediately, but adding another Ranger can make things wonky because you'll want to keep them paired.
Logged

gkrieg13

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 504
  • Shuffle iT Username: gkrieg
  • Respect: +461
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2016, 12:26:08 am »
0

Can you guys leave the ranger talk until we open a thread about it?  We want to keep this thread on topic! :P
Logged

tailred

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
  • Shuffle iT Username: ceviri
  • Respect: +345
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2016, 01:24:37 am »
0

Do you go for this on a board with Champion?
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4804
  • Respect: +19565
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2016, 02:04:41 am »
+5

Do you go for this on a board with Champion?
In that game vs. SCSN, I put Lost Arts on Gear despite already being on the path towards Champion. And I did get Champion anyway, and I won, although I had a lot more experience with Adventures than he had.

It felt like I was only going to get a couple turns of value out of that Lost Arts; still, it was a lot of value on those turns.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3320
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2016, 04:37:33 am »
+2

The cool thing about Lost Arts is that it can turn a non-engine board into an engine board.

Sometimes you scan a board and see a lot of cool cards, but no actions and it makes you pretty sad.
This is a neat potential fix for those kinds of boards.

Just having the option to buy it and get those +Actions is a great addition to many boards.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9136
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2016, 12:52:50 pm »
0

Can you guys leave the ranger talk until we open a thread about it?  We want to keep this thread on topic! :P

Well, the context is terminal draw after being Lost Arts'd so it fits here. :P
Logged

Chris is me

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2462
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3032
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2016, 02:42:49 pm »
+3

Do you go for this on a board with Champion?

In a way going for this on a Champion board is much better than adding Villages, even though you can only make one card nonterminal. The huge downside about Champion that lots of people seem to just ignore is that either you have to build a partial engine that becomes useless once you hit Champion, or you have to hold off on firing your engine until Champion is in play. In some cases the game is more than half over at this point! Lost Arts on your best draw card gives you a temporary solution that lets you cycle faster while making sure you can upgrade your terminal Traveler when you draw it. Fewer wasted buys / gains, more efficiency in those couple of turns.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1079
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1558
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2016, 03:05:38 pm »
+1

Pretty baller event.  Not much else to say.  The less +Actions there are, the better this event is.  I can see it being especially useful in games where:
- There are chainable terminal attacks -- Rabble, Torturer
- I would typically spend $6 for a Necropolis Nobles
- Necropolis, Dame Molly, and Trusty Steed are the only +Actions

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

Logged

convolucid

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
  • Respect: +111
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2016, 08:35:38 pm »
0

We once played a 3p game with Lost Arts, Torturer, and no trashers. One player got Lost Arts a full turn ahead of us; we surrendered a few turns later. She still brags about it.

Overall, I like Lost Arts a lot. In my experience it is mandatory a little less often than Pathfinding, but that's not saying much. If Lost Arts is on the board, you can almost certainly build a good engine.

Choosing a good target is usually easy. The most complicated choice is when to buy the event vs. more of your planned recipient card.

Logged

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1970
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2755
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2016, 06:48:19 am »
+3

And how awesome would this make Wharf!?

Interestingly, Wharf actually gains les from this than other cards because it is a duration. Consider Wharf vs Margrave with Lost Arts. You will probably be able to draw your deck with both of them. Margrave gives +3 cards per turn, while Wharf gives +2 cards this turn and +3 cards next turn, so on average only 2.5 cards per turn, which is roughly the same as putting the token on Ranger.

It's still really good because Wharf is such a good card to begin with, but in general you'd prefer to put this on non-durations.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.249 seconds with 22 queries.