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Author Topic: Dominion Adages  (Read 15611 times)

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Dingan

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Dominion Adages
« on: February 22, 2016, 09:14:26 pm »
+12

I don't know who or when people first said these things, but they seem to resonate with the forum community to some degree.  Sorry if the wording is not 100% correct, or if I've misinterpreted in any way.  I can also give credit where credit is due, if people can track down original posts or whatever.

It's not about being ahead when the game ends; it's about ending the game when you're ahead.
This is, like, the single best piece of advice anyone can ever give to someone (about Dominion, of course).  When I'm teaching people how to play IRL, it's basically the first thing I say after they understand the concept of VP.  And then I repeat it usually 1 to 2 more times by the end of the game.

Everybody is a bad player; some are less bad than others.
I love this statement.  It's humbling.  Don't get too cocky because, although you may be better than some other people, you're still bad; so keep getting better.

Thinning is winning. / 1 really good thing is better than 2 pretty good things.
I lump these 2 phrases together because, although they're technically not the same thing, they both convey that you want a good deck that has a high (good cards) / (bad cards) ratio.  Of course there are exceptions (Fairgrounds, Gardens, you want a lot of cheap stuff, etc.).  But these phrases can be a good rule-of-thumb, especially to new players.  And in addition to explaining why it is good to have a good deck, they help explain things like
- why a Lab costs more than a Caravan
- why most of us think Steward is better for trashing than Amulet
- how Tactician can be good in a deck full of Treasures

You make your own shuffle luck. / YMYOSL
This phrase actually does not resonate with me nearly as much as it does other people.  But it certainly warrants praise, because I'm sure it helps people understand that we shouldn't blame bad luck every time we lose.  It doesn't resonate with me because luck plays a huge part in Dominion.  Period.  We can argue how much luck plays a factor, or the types of Kingdoms on which luck plays less or more of a part, or if some of us feel that the MF servers' random number generators are really not random at all, etc.  But we can't argue that luck exists.  You make as much of your own shuffle luck as possible.  YMAMOYOSLAP.  But in the end, if my Chapel misses my first reshuffle, then it misses my first reshuffle.  And then if the next 2 times it comes up, it does so with all my Silvers, then I just say well YMAMOYOSLAP.  (Wow, just realized, that almost looks like YO MAMA SLAP if you cross your eyes).

There is no such thing as optimal play.
I'm actually making this one up right now.  Feel free to disagree.  There are MAAAYYBBEE some exceptions on the very most simple of boards.  Like, something that simulators can show, and the logic behind those simulators can be proven beyond any doubt -- which might not even be possible.  So ya, I think a starving child in Africa dies every time somebody thinks they played "optimally", or wonders how they could play a board "optimally", or mentions the term "optimal" in discussion of strategy in any way except when saying how bad of a term it is.

- Any more?
- Thoughts?
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 09:26:48 pm »
+7

You won my heart with the last one.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 09:29:39 pm »
0

I'm obviously going to suggest something about Scout.

This could maybe get moved to articles though.
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Chris is me

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2016, 09:31:18 pm »
0

1 really good thing really isn't better than 2 pretty good things though. Ambassador trashes two identical cards and gives out 1 junk - both decent for a terminal but not stellar alone. Masquerade draws 2 and trashes 1 - both pretty mediocre effects alone for a terminal. Jack of All Trades exists. Lots of times you'll find exceptions to this rule - there really isn't a correlation between the amount of unique things a card does and its effectiveness.
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Limetime

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2016, 09:31:37 pm »
+7

You won my heart with the last one.
Wow your heart is more easily won than your respect.
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schadd

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2016, 09:33:13 pm »
+1

the reason that engine is good, definitely, in severals of cases, not meaningful, yes there is but we have maybe done it like 3 times
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Dingan

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2016, 09:33:48 pm »
0

This could maybe get moved to articles though.

I thought about it, but this is actually just my interpretation of things other people have said.  And therefore, not much new substance.

Ironically, I almost put this in this thread (ironic because you probably hate that thread).
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Titandrake

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 09:35:58 pm »
+4

I'm an old fuddy-duddy, so here's the sources I remember.

Quote
It's not about being ahead when the game ends; it's about ending the game when you're ahead.

Tables in a comment from a long ago discussion thread.

Quote
Everybody is a bad player; some are less bad than others.

It's been around for a while, but I'd like to think I popularized it. Both Stef + me talked about it in the 2016 Championships interview thread. Maybe I said it in the interview itself, not sure.

Quote
Thinning is winning. / 1 really good thing is better than 2 pretty good things.

Adam says this a lot in his streams.

Quote
You make your own shuffle luck. / YMYOSL

I never heard Adam say this, but everyone else attributes this to him? Honestly, it turned into a meme really fast. I also never cared for the term so much, because the phrasing always felt weird. (My thinking is closer to "You made a mistake somewhere, so find it, and blame that first.")

Quote
There is no such thing as optimal play.

Well, yeah that's Dingan. I wonder where it first started? Oh wait, right here.
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Dingan

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2016, 09:43:49 pm »
0

the reason that engine is good, definitely, in severals of cases, not meaningful, yes there is but we have maybe done it like 3 times

Huh?


1 really good thing really isn't better than 2 pretty good things though.

Of course there are exceptions
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liopoil

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2016, 11:10:03 pm »
+2

So, I guess I don't really get the last one. Is the point that it's futile to strive to play optimally, because realistically the best one can do is be less bad than everyone else, like quote 2? Or that on most boards there will be hard choices which end up only affecting your win chances only imperceptibly? Or that it is hard to ever determine, even playing a board multiple times, what the optimal strategy is? I agree with all 3, but which is it?
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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2016, 11:33:18 pm »
+1

1 really good thing is better than 2 pretty good things.

There's an even more specific and more relevant thing to be discussed when it comes to hands and not just things:

1 good hand and 1 bad hand are better than 2 mediocre hands.
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DG

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2016, 11:46:43 pm »
+6

Don't play a nine card kingdom.

That's one of the things I try to tell myself. Don't skip over or forget any of the ten kingdom cards, or even a potion or ruins, they might all be useful.
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liopoil

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2016, 12:05:09 am »
+1

Watch out for Watchtower.

Yeah, that's all I've got.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2016, 12:07:38 am »
0

Always Goons.
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Titandrake

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2016, 12:21:48 am »
+8

When you're ahead, play conservatively. When you're behind, take risks.

(by Stef, from http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/09/10/taking-risks-driving-the-p2-seat/)
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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2016, 12:37:59 am »
0

1 really good thing is better than 2 pretty good things.

There's an even more specific and more relevant thing to be discussed when it comes to hands and not just things:

1 good hand and 1 bad hand are better than 2 mediocre hands.

I don't think that's actually true, though. Or rather, it's so vague as to be meaningless. There are a lot of games where one bad hand is a complete disaster, and no really good hand is going to make up for it. But even in normal everyday cases, it's mostly wrong. Would you rather have one Lab or Gold instead of two Caravans? I usually wouldn't. On average, I would rather have two cheap engine components than one expensive one, though realistically I'm probably going to need both in most cases.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2016, 01:03:19 am »
+1

No adage or rule is right every time.
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markusin

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2016, 01:10:31 am »
0

1 really good thing is better than 2 pretty good things.

There's an even more specific and more relevant thing to be discussed when it comes to hands and not just things:

1 good hand and 1 bad hand are better than 2 mediocre hands.

I don't think that's actually true, though. Or rather, it's so vague as to be meaningless. There are a lot of games where one bad hand is a complete disaster, and no really good hand is going to make up for it. But even in normal everyday cases, it's mostly wrong. Would you rather have one Lab or Gold instead of two Caravans? I usually wouldn't. On average, I would rather have two cheap engine components than one expensive one, though realistically I'm probably going to need both in most cases.

I'd maybe want two Caravans/Ironmongers/Advisors over one Lab if I'm relying on Throne Room as an action splitter. So yeah perhaps two okay things can be better than one better thing.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 02:31:32 am »
+4

When you win, it's because of superior play. When you lose, it's because of shuffle luck.
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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2016, 03:18:34 am »
0

Don't play a nine card kingdom.

That's one of the things I try to tell myself. Don't skip over or forget any of the ten kingdom cards, or even a potion or ruins, they might all be useful.

This is something I am working hard on. I have actually opened Ruined Market a couple of times. It's very easy to forget cards like Scout exist, but it is important to analyze the kingdom as a whole and think if there is any situation that a card might be useful on that kingdom.
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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2016, 05:52:36 am »
+5

Try unorthodox strategies!!!

Reading strategy posts on these forums may lead to group think and trying boring, proven strategies to safely win most games.
But at a certain point, they won't help you become a better player.

The most rewarding wins are when you try unorthodox strategies and actually pull them off.
And then you've learned way more than you would've going for the obvious.
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Dingan

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2016, 12:29:22 pm »
0

So, I guess I don't really get the last one. Is the point that it's futile to strive to play optimally, because realistically the best one can do is be less bad than everyone else, like quote 2? Or that on most boards there will be hard choices which end up only affecting your win chances only imperceptibly? Or that it is hard to ever determine, even playing a board multiple times, what the optimal strategy is? I agree with all 3, but which is it?

All I'm saying is that there is no such thing as optimal play.  Period.  Feel free to make whatever deductions you want from that statement.

The reason this statement is a fact is that in order for something to be optimal, you have to be able to quantify that something, and then the optimal value of the something is the largest quantity it can be.  And we have no way of quantifying how "good" a Kingdom is played or can be played.  If we did, bots would have a 100% win rate (if we wanted them to), and someone here would probably win a Turning Award.
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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2016, 12:42:32 pm »
+4

All I'm saying is that there is no such thing as optimal play.  Period.  Feel free to make whatever deductions you want from that statement.

The reason this statement is a fact is that in order for something to be optimal, you have to be able to quantify that something, and then the optimal value of the something is the largest quantity it can be.  And we have no way of quantifying how "good" a Kingdom is played or can be played.  If we did, bots would have a 100% win rate (if we wanted them to), and someone here would probably win a Turning Award.

There exists a way to quantify how "good" a kingdom is played, it's just so complicated that we haven't figured it out. Which is why we also don't know the optimal play for sure in a lot of situations. However, that doesn't mean the optimal play doesn't exist.
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Dingan

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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2016, 01:02:40 pm »
0

All I'm saying is that there is no such thing as optimal play.  Period.  Feel free to make whatever deductions you want from that statement.

The reason this statement is a fact is that in order for something to be optimal, you have to be able to quantify that something, and then the optimal value of the something is the largest quantity it can be.  And we have no way of quantifying how "good" a Kingdom is played or can be played.  If we did, bots would have a 100% win rate (if we wanted them to), and someone here would probably win a Turning Award.

There exists a way to quantify how "good" a kingdom is played, it's just so complicated that we haven't figured it out. Which is why we also don't know the optimal play for sure in a lot of situations. However, that doesn't mean the optimal play doesn't exist.

True.  Theoretically, there are a finite number of states a given game can be in (ignoring coin tokens or Pirate Ship tokens) -- finite number of states of the piles, finite number of decisions that can be made at any one point, finite number of ways your deck can be shuffled, etc.  There are also a finite number of possible Kingdoms.  These numbers are all huge, but they have their limits.  So ya, if somebody ever figures it out, I'd like to know.  But we haven't yet.  And I wouldn't hold your breath for it.

EDIT: And I hope no one does, cus then Dominion would be really boring.  Every game would be a coin flip, based on shuffle luck.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 01:37:38 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Dominion Adages
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2016, 01:17:21 pm »
0

Don't play a nine card kingdom.

That's one of the things I try to tell myself. Don't skip over or forget any of the ten kingdom cards, or even a potion or ruins, they might all be useful.

This is something I am working hard on. I have actually opened Ruined Market a couple of times. It's very easy to forget cards like Scout exist, but it is important to analyze the kingdom as a whole and think if there is any situation that a card might be useful on that kingdom.

For that matter, don't play a kingdom with less than 9 cards either. You're actually on your way to top level play if you can even play a 9-card kingdom consistently.
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