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[2.71828.....]

Welcome to M77: Scout Mafia by e.

This game is for 12 players, and is classified as normal.  It was designed by ashersky as an open setup.

Co-mod: iguanaiguana

Sign ups are open.  Rules to come.

1. yuma
2. gkrieg13
3. Roadrunner7671
4. Axxle
5. faust
6. silverspawn
7. Joseph2302
8. A Drowned Kernel
9. Awaclus
10. chairs
11. Witherweaver
12. Hydrad

Tags: SirMartin, sudgy, Ashersky, liopoil, scott_pilgrim

Game State Tracker:
Day 1: Start || End
Day 2: Start || End
Day 3: Start || End
Day 4: Start || End


The Rules:

The Golden Rule:
This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.

The Standard Rules:
1. No communication between players outside of the game thread or shared QTs at any time. This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads, whether in context or not.
2. If the game thread is locked, do not post. If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
3. Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay.
4. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved in the order they are received.
5. All night actions must be submitted within 24 hours of day ending.
6. Players must post once every 24 hours.
7. Do not edit or delete posts, ever. If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
8. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
9. Cryptography is not allowed.
10. The time between a lynch being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight. All players may continue posting during this time, including the lynched player.
11. Dead players may not post in thread or QT, except their Role QT. A lynched player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.
12. Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread.
13. Personal QTs are meant to enhance the game experience, not detract from it.  Any players that wish to record their individual thoughts outside of the game thread are welcome to do so.  However, this information is not to be referenced directly as coming from your QT.  This means no quoting, paraphrasing, or otherwise referencing information in your QT as being recorded in your QT.  You may freely share the thoughts that you have recorded in your QT, but that information must be posted like any other post that you would make.

The Voting Rules:
1. Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername. Unambigiuous nicknames are acceptable.
2. Unvotes should be in this format: unvote or Unvote: Playername.
3. Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4. You may vote: no lynch.
5. Lynches occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached. Once reached, a lynch cannot be undone.
6. Lynch rules vary by the number of players alive.  With 10 or more players alive, the player with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.  Ties are broken by coin flip.  With nine or less players alive, if a majority lynch is not reached by the deadline, no lynch occurs.

The Rest:
1. Bold, purple (and Teal!) text is reserved for the Mod. Players may not use it.
2. If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the Mod. Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3. Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently. If they can be corrected, they will. If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5. Ask all questions and make all requests directly to the Mod via QT. Questions deemed as "universal" (defined as questions for which the answers should be available to all players) will be requested to be re-posted in the Game Thread and answered there.
6. Information provided by the Mod in your QT is allowed to be paraphrased in the main thread (this supersedes Standard Rule 13).
7. Prods will be issued by request after 24 hours of inactivity. Players are subject to replacement or modkill after two prods.
8. All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.

Deadlines:
1. Days will last ten IRL days.
2. Nights will last two IRL days.

[2.71828.....]

The setup for this game is Asher9++ and was designed by Ashersky. 
Previous games to use this setup: M39, M55

Asher9++ is a semi-open setup for 12 players. Setup generation is a randomized process that is open and explained below.

All games include a Universal Back-Up and a Godfather. The remaining 10 roles are determined by rolling six random numbers from 1-100. Each roll is separate. The following number ranges are assigned letters as shown:

1-50: T (Townie. This directly influences scum power roles.) (50/100)
51-60: E (“Either” Cop or Doctor) (10/100)
61-65: C (Cop) (5/100)
66-70: D (Doctor) (5/100)
71-80: V (Vigilante) (10/100)
81-90: M (Mason) (10/100)
91-100: B (Blocker) (10/100)

After the letters have been assigned, the mod refers to the list below to determine which power roles are included.

E Roles*
E = 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EE = 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2
EEE = Doctor OR Cop; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EEEE = Doctor OR Cop; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2
EEEEE = Doctor OR Cop x2; 1 -Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EEEEEE = Doctor OR Cop x2; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2

C Roles
C = 1-Shot Cop
CC = Cop
CCC = Cop; 1-Shot Cop
CCCC = Cop; 1-Shot Cop x2
CCCCC = Cop x2; 1-Shot Cop
CCCCCC = Cop x2; 1-Shot Cop x2

D Roles
D = Doctor
DD = Doctor; 1-Shot Doctor
DDD = Doctor; 1-Shot Doctor x2
DDDD = Doctor x2; 1-Shot Doctor
DDDDD = Doctor x2; 1-Shot Doctor x2
DDDDDD = Doctor x3

Vigilante Roles
V = 1-Shot Vigilante
VV = Vigilante
VVV = Vigilante; 1-Shot Vigilante
VVVV = Vigilante; 1-Shot Vigilante x2
VVVVV = Vigilante x2; 1-Shot Vigilante
VVVVVV = Vigilante x2; 1-Shot Vigilante x2

Mason Roles
M** = 1 Mason
MM = Innocent Child (Confirmed at start of Day 1)
MMM = 2 Masons
MMMM = 2 Masons; Innocent Child
MMMMM = 3 Masons
MMMMMM = 2 Masons; 2 Masons (i.e. two separate pairings)

Blocker Roles
B = Roleblocker
BB = Roleblocker; 1-Shot Roleblocker
BBB = Roleblocker; 1-Shot Roleblocker x2
BBBB = Roleblocker x2; 1-Shot Roleblocker
BBBBB = Roleblocker x2; 1-Shot Roleblocker x2
BBBBBB = Roleblocker x3

Scum Roles (In addition to the Godfather)
TTTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TT = Strongman; Roleblocker
T = Strongman; Roleblocker
0 Ts = Strongman; Roleblocker; 1-Shot Bulletproof****

After power roles are determined from the table above, Vanilla Townies are added to arrive at 12 players.

* "Or" roles are determined randomly
** Single M rolls result in the Universal Backup converting to a Mason
*** 5 or 6 T rolls result in a scum team of Goon - Goon - Godfather. During N0, the team may elect to have one of the two Goons be 1-Shot Bulletproof. This is optional and not required.
**** If there are zero Ts, one member of the mafia team is randomly 1-Shot Bulletproof.

Clarifications:

--If a 1-Shot PR is the first PR to die, the UB will inherit that role, even if the shot was used up. The UB will not receive a new shot.
--If the Universal Backup converts to a Mason due to a single M roll, that player will not be informed of the conversion.
--Mafia Strongman modifier defeats one doctor protection or roleblocker. If two or more doctors successfully protect the target, the kill will fail. If a doctor protects the target and the Strongman is blocked, the kill will fail.  If two roleblockers target the Strongman, the kill will fail.
--The Bulletproof modifier will be revealed upon death, if selected or assigned.

[2.71828.....]

Flavor will be dominion cards that combo with scout.  Scum will have a dominion card that does not combo with Scout as well as a fakeclaim of a card that combos with Scout.

Flavor for all cards that combo with Scout will be assigned randomly.  Both mafia and town will have flavor based on cards that combo with scout.  PRs/scum will not be given cards that combo "more" or "less" than other cards.

Sample role PMs

Welcome to M77 - Scout Mafia.

You are a Vanilla Townie.

You have no power other than your vote. Use it well.

You win when all threats to Scout as the Best Combo have been eliminated.

Welcome to M77 - Scout Mafia.

You are the Scum Goon.

You win when all cards that claim to combo with Scout have been eliminated.

You may talk to your partners here:

[yuma]

/in

[gkrieg13]

/in

[Roadrunner7671]

Scout Mafia?

[Roadrunner7671]

/tag

[gkrieg13]

/tag

scout is offended...

[Roadrunner7671]

Okay, I suppose I won't feel right if I don't /in.

But let's think of cards that combo with Scout (you'll need 12, I guess we can include Scout himself). So we have Apothecary, Scout, Mystic, Inheritance, Wishing Well, Tournament, Baron, Explorer, Crossroads, Harem, Nobles, Great Hall.
Oh snap that's 12!

[Roadrunner7671]

/tag

scout is offended...

I felt like I would be a negative impact on the game. I mean, getting lynched/night killed/dayvigged/other deadly thing would break my heart, obviously. I feel like I would react poorly and that would reflect on current Mafia games that I was in as well as the people that decided to lynch me.

[gkrieg13]

/tag

scout is offended...

I felt like I would be a negative impact on the game. I mean, getting lynched/night killed/dayvigged/other deadly thing would break my heart, obviously. I feel like I would react poorly and that would reflect on current Mafia games that I was in as well as the people that decided to lynch me

But at least you get to be a card that combos with scout.  We can't live through every game

[Roadrunner7671]

/tag

scout is offended...

I felt like I would be a negative impact on the game. I mean, getting lynched/night killed/dayvigged/other deadly thing would break my heart, obviously. I feel like I would react poorly and that would reflect on current Mafia games that I was in as well as the people that decided to lynch me

But at least you get to be a card that combos with scout.  We can't live through every game

If I'm scum I might be a card that anti-synergizes with Scout, like Rebuild or Cartographer. That would be bad.

[Axxle]

Scout Mafia

Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back /in

[faust]

Okay, I suppose I won't feel right if I don't /in.

But let's think of cards that combo with Scout (you'll need 12, I guess we can include Scout himself). So we have Apothecary, Scout, Mystic, Inheritance, Wishing Well, Tournament, Baron, Explorer, Crossroads, Harem, Nobles, Great Hall.
Oh snap that's 12!

It says cards that combo with Scout.

/in

[faust]

If I'm scum I might be a card that anti-synergizes with Scout, like Rebuild or Cartographer. That would be bad.

No; clearly, the scum team is 3 Scouts.

[silverspawn]

/in

[Joseph2302]

Okay, I suppose I won't feel right if I don't /in.

But let's think of cards that combo with Scout (you'll need 12, I guess we can include Scout himself). So we have Apothecary, Scout, Mystic, Inheritance, Wishing Well, Tournament, Baron, Explorer, Crossroads, Harem, Nobles, Great Hall.
Oh snap that's 12!

Scout doesn't really combo with Scout at all- you play I scout, leave lots of non-victory cards, and so the second scout also picks them up.

[Joseph2302]

Also, /in.

[silverspawn]

Scout doesn't really combo with Scout at all

Of course it does. You play scout, there are no victory cards, you know better than to play another scout, and can discard it to secret chamber instead. Feel the synergy!

[A Drowned Kernel]

/in

[Awaclus]

/in

[iguanaiguana]

You won't be needing me, as there are not actually 12 cards that combo with scout.

[Roadrunner7671]

You won't be needing me, as there are not actually 12 cards that combo with scout.

You really should join. Can we pressure you?

[SirMartin]

/tag

[sudgy]

Scout doesn't really combo with Scout at all

Of course it does. You play scout, there are no victory cards, you know better than to play another scout, and can discard it to secret chamber instead. Feel the synergy!

But, in that case, I think it would be better just to discard both to secret chamber.

[faust]

Scout doesn't really combo with Scout at all

Of course it does. You play scout, there are no victory cards, you know better than to play another scout, and can discard it to secret chamber instead. Feel the synergy!

But, in that case, I think it would be better just to discard both to secret chamber.

No, because you plan to play a Loan afterwards and want to make sure it hits the right card.

[yuma]

PS: I'll be VLA from February 27 to March 2 with basically zero access. Like I can get on my wife's phone, but I probably won't that much... Depending on when the game starts I may not be around to confirm/post/etc...

[2.71828.....]

I have rolled the setup but am still writing up some flavor.  This game will not start until either M75 or M76 is finished.  Well, that and we need three more people

[ashersky]

/tag

[iguanaiguana]

You won't be needing me, as there are not actually 12 cards that combo with scout.

You really should join. Can we pressure you?

I won't be joining anything new until March 22 or so.

[chairs]

/in

[2.71828.....]

I just edited Standard Rule 13 (regarding QTs).  Basically, I expanded the rule from prohibiting quoting QTs to referencing them at all.  You are allowed to paraphrase answers from the mod to specific questions (say, you ask a question about your role) - See "the rest" rule 5 and 6.

This is basically trying to close a loophole where people may be asked to paraphrase their whole QT, which would have been technically legal, but still having the same effect as quoting your whole QT.

If you have any questions/gripes/complaints feel free to PM me.  I may still change the rule some before the game starts, but once the game starts the rule will not change and I will also post to notify everyone of any changes.

[2.71828.....]

Sample role PMs added

[Witherweaver]

Hm, Axxle is in so I guess I have to

\in

[gkrieg13]

Quick somebody hammer!

[Joseph2302]

Quick somebody hammer!

/hammer

[Joseph2302]

Quick somebody hammer!

/hammer

/fakehammer, as I'm already /in.

[gkrieg13]

Woohoo!

PPE:  awwww

[liopoil]

/tag

[yuma]

/tag

and I was so excited when I saw you had replied...

[Hydrad]

ohho? ohohohohohohoho?

I'm not signed up yet it looks like.

cool my first game hammer.

/in

[Awaclus]

cool my first game hammer.

I'd love to, but I don't think I can cool your first game hammer from here.

[Axxle]

Grooaaaaaaannnn

[Roadrunner7671]

Grooaaaaaaannnn

Oh yeah, there's a new-to-me guy. This'll be an adventure.

[2.71828.....]

reworded the scum win-con.  Again, will start up when either M75 or M76 are finished

[Axxle]

Grooaaaaaaannnn

Oh yeah, there's a new-to-me guy. This'll be an adventure.

Don't worry, I'm not the *best* player to play the game, so if we're on opposite teams you might have a chance.

[Roadrunner7671]

Grooaaaaaaannnn

Oh yeah, there's a new-to-me guy. This'll be an adventure.

Don't worry, I'm not the *best* player to play the game, so if we're on opposite teams you might have a chance.

Don't worry, I'll be sure to make you look good!

[iguanaiguana]

Oh hey, I'm co-modding this 

[Roadrunner7671]

Oh hey, I'm co-modding this 

That's reassuring.

[Axxle]

I know a pi from another site. Should I invite her over so the mod team can be e^iπ?

[2.71828.....]

I know a pi from another site. Should I invite her over so the mod team can be e^iπ?

I used to be pi on isotropic.  That was my first username.  I switched to e sometime later (you know, because you could change up your username whenever you wanted to back on iso.  So long as it wasn't already in use.)

[scott_pilgrim]

/tag

[faust]

M76 just ended. Where's my PM???!

[gkrieg13]

M76 just ended. Where's my PM???!

[2.71828.....]

At work, probably going to be a long day. PMs should be out in 12 hours or so (hopefully sooner). This will unfortunately put us at a weekend start, but such is life

[yuma]

At work, probably going to be a long day. PMs should be out in 12 hours or so (hopefully sooner). This will unfortunately put us at a weekend start, but such is life

[Roadrunner7671]

You won't be needing me, as there are not actually 12 cards that combo with scout.

You really should join. Can we pressure you?

I won't be joining anything new until March 22 or so.

But you have time to comod. 

[2.71828.....]

PMs have been sent

Please confirm in your QT

Thread Locked except to /tag

[2.71828.....]

Ok, everyone has confirmed. We will start this game in 24 hours. (Or so)

[Teproc]

/tag because Axxle.

[2.71828.....]

Day 1 Start

It was Scout's 14th birthday, and all of his favorite combos had gotten together at his house to throw him a party. Herald was in a deep conversation with prince about the importance of nontraditional sources of plus action, while the cliquish intrigue cards kept to themselves in a corner of the room. When the door opened, all the combos got ready to shout Happy Birthday, but instead of Scout walking through the door, all they could see was a letter tossed into the room by an unseen figure. Confused, Mystic went forward and picked up the letter.

"You all think you combo with Scout so well," Mystic began to read with growing trepidation, "but we know the truth, and you all don't know anything about Scout! You all think he is this great card that can do amazing things for you, but he is not!  He is a fiend that spoils Dominion for everyone. Unless all of you recant and disavow Scout as a combo, you will have seen the last of your precious card.  We have three agents there with you disguised as Scout lovers to help insure that you make the correct decision....."

Mystic tore up the letter, "We will never recant!"

"We do need to figure out who those agents are who helped kidnap Scout, though." Nobles began.

"Yes! Then we can mount a rescue operation to free Scout and show the world that he is indeed our best combo!" Apothecary shouted.

Thread Unlocked

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (12): yuma, gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671, Axxle, faust, silverspawn, Joseph2302, A Drowned Kernel, Awaclus, chairs, Witherweaver, Hydrad

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Monday, March 7 at noon forum time.

[gkrieg13]

vote: Witherweaver

[Witherweaver]

You caught me.  Game over.

[gkrieg13]

You caught me.  Game over.

I knew it would work!  Now give us scout back!

[Roadrunner7671]

So I'm an IC, right? And WW just claimed scum?
Vote: WW

[Axxle]

vote: gkreig

Voting with no comment whatsoever? I know it's random voting phase but that's just scummy low effort.

To be absolutely clear this isn't a random vote (though admittedly it's not super strong)

Pedit: not a fan of wws response either.

[Axxle]

So I'm an IC, right? And WW just claimed scum?

Guessing this is a joke and I didn't miss that announcement, right?

[Roadrunner7671]

So I'm an IC, right? And WW just claimed scum?

Guessing this is a joke and I didn't miss that announcement, right?

It's a joke I suppose, seeing as I would be crushed if I had to kill Scout (my life's work).

[gkrieg13]

vote: gkreig

Voting with no comment whatsoever? I know it's random voting phase but that's just scummy low effort.

To be absolutely clear this isn't a random vote (though admittedly it's not super strong)

Pedit: not a fan of wws response either.

It was the first post of the game!  I always start off with a good RVS.

[Axxle]

Oh, I meant you being an IC is a joke

Pedit: @rr

[Awaclus]

I like the case against silver. Vote: silverspawn

[yuma]

vote: gkreig

Voting with no comment whatsoever? I know it's random voting phase but that's just scummy low effort.

To be absolutely clear this isn't a random vote (though admittedly it's not super strong)

Pedit: not a fan of wws response either.

kewl

vote: gkrieg

also haddock recently mentioned he has never been lynched before... I could go for that... except he isn't in this game. Drat!

[yuma]

vote: gkreig

Voting with no comment whatsoever? I know it's random voting phase but that's just scummy low effort.

To be absolutely clear this isn't a random vote (though admittedly it's not super strong)

Pedit: not a fan of wws response either.

It was the first post of the game!  I always start off with a good RVS.

Hey look! Something we can substantiate!

X-shots:

vote: EFHW because of that one time.

Tree game (after a first post)

vote: eevee
He just seems like a tree hater

Harry Potter he even did it as scum

Scum slip!  vote: iguana

unvote

[gkrieg13]

How else would you start a game?

[Awaclus]

How else would you start a game?

Voting for silverspawn is always a good way to start a game.

[yuma]

How else would you start a game?

I don't know. I personally rarely vote for someone right off the bat unless there is halfway decent reason (like here), but that is just me.

[Witherweaver]

vote: gkreig

Voting with no comment whatsoever? I know it's random voting phase but that's just scummy low effort.

To be absolutely clear this isn't a random vote (though admittedly it's not super strong)

Pedit: not a fan of wws response either.

It was the first post of the game!  I always start off with a good RVS.

Hey look! Something we can substantiate!

X-shots:

vote: EFHW because of that one time.

Tree game (after a first post)

vote: eevee
He just seems like a tree hater

Harry Potter he even did it as scum

Scum slip!  vote: iguana

unvote

Well, those are different.  In all of those he provided some non-vote string.

[yuma]

Well, those are different.  In all of those he provided some non-vote string.

Ok. But providing a string doesn't mean he isn't scum. See the Harry Potter example.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Axxle

[gkrieg13]

vote: gkreig

Voting with no comment whatsoever? I know it's random voting phase but that's just scummy low effort.

To be absolutely clear this isn't a random vote (though admittedly it's not super strong)

Pedit: not a fan of wws response either.

It was the first post of the game!  I always start off with a good RVS.

Hey look! Something we can substantiate!

X-shots:

vote: EFHW because of that one time.

Tree game (after a first post)

vote: eevee
He just seems like a tree hater

Harry Potter he even did it as scum

Scum slip!  vote: iguana

unvote

Well, those are different.  In all of those he provided some non-vote string.

Well the string that accompanied it was "I claim mason" but I thought that joke was getting old.

[2.71828.....]

Everyone was so upset....accusations starting flowing in thick and fast

Vote Count 1.1

Witherweaver (2): gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671
gkrieg13 (1): Axxle
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Axxle (1): Witherweaver

Not Voting (7): faust, silverspawn, Joseph2302, A Drowned Kernel, chairs, Hydrad, yuma

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Monday, March 7 at noon forum time.

[Axxle]

unvote
vote: Awaclus
Care to comment on the game?

[Witherweaver]

unvote
vote: Awaclus
Care to comment on the game?

I take it you're new here.

[Axxle]

I like yumas research though if he ever flips scum I'd take a good hard look at gkreig again.

[Axxle]

unvote
vote: Awaclus
Care to comment on the game?

I take it you're new here.

Now that I think about it this all does seem a bit familiar

[Joseph2302]

Vote: Hydrad, because you were scum in M55.

[Awaclus]

unvote
vote: Awaclus
Care to comment on the game?

Not really, no.

[Axxle]

Vote: Axxle

I think I know where you're coming from, but can you verbalize your reason?

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Axxle

I think I know where you're coming from, but can you verbalize your reason?

Vote Gkrieg for mostly weaksauce but a detailed explanation, also imply I'm scummy in the same post.  Provides a hedge and lack of accountability in your vote.

[silverspawn]

Voting for silverspawn is always a good way to start a game.

oh, okay. vote: silverspawn

[silverspawn]

also, welcome everyone! who isn't scum, that is.

[chairs]

Vote: Axxle for reminding me of a man stuck between two oversized wheels fighting other people in an insane clown's posse of ridiculously-designed vehicles.

[Axxle]

[yuma]

Voting for silverspawn is always a good way to start a game.

oh, okay. vote: silverspawn

Hey guys! Look at me for not being anti-town and automatically voting ss for self voting!

This attitude change thing must really be working...

[A Drowned Kernel]

Voting for silverspawn is always a good way to start a game.

oh, okay. vote: silverspawn

Hey guys! Look at me for not being anti-town and automatically voting ss for self voting!

This attitude change thing must really be working...

I'm not a fan of automatically voting, but I think I would expect a different reaction to Awaclus's posts from town!silverspawn. This seems too flippant for him.

vote: silverspawn

[yuma]

Well I think there are only so many ways you can react to something and given awaclus' penchant for starting the game this way and ss continually responding but never causing it to stop I don't necessarily fault him for trying something new... Cause well, sometimes reacting to the same things the same way and getting the same result gets old.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I mean given that it's coming from awaclus I would think that not reacting at all would be an option.

[yuma]

I mean given that it's coming from awaclus I would think that not reacting at all would be an option.

I believe that he has tried that as well. I don't know, maybe he isn't annoyed with it. You would have to ask him, but if he is I could see him responding to ridiculousness with ridiculousness just this once for a change.

[silverspawn]

and we're out of RVS! you're welcome.

[A Drowned Kernel]

and we're out of RVS! you're welcome.

So who do you think is scum, other than yourself?

[silverspawn]

and we're out of RVS! you're welcome.

So who do you think is scum, other than yourself?

Well... I honestly expected it to cause a lot more reaction than it did.

Awaclus' vote was just an excuse to do it.

Not sure if your or yuma's response is scummier... honestly, I think neither one is particularly scummy.

maybe chairs for not reacting at all.

[iguanaiguana]

No one was sure who to trust. Some even doubted themselves.

Vote Count 1.2

Witherweaver (2): gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671
Awaclus (1): Axxle
silverspawn (3): Awaclus, silverspawn, A Drowned Kernel
Axxle (2): Witherweaver, chairs
Hydrad (1) Joseph2302

Not Voting (3): faust, Hydrad, yuma

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Monday, March 7 at noon forum time.

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm here now. Don't worry! Looks like we're still in RVS.

[faust]

I'm here now. Don't worry! Looks like we're still in RVS.

Don't you listen to silverspawn?

and we're out of RVS!

Tsk, tsk.

Also hi everyone. I wish I had some old joke I can start every game with.

[Roadrunner7671]

Are flavor claims a good idea (from either a mafia standpoint or for entertainment purposes)?

[faust]

So far I like yuma and Axxle for not doing stupid RVS. WW votes for Axxle for skipping RVS. Meh. That's probably town. ADk thinks he has to immediately have an opinion on silver's self-vote.

Vote: ADK

[faust]

Are flavor claims a good idea (from either a mafia standpoint or for entertainment purposes)?

It's distracting and doesn't help us. You should only flavor claim if you can make a good (!) joke of it.

[Roadrunner7671]

Are flavor claims a good idea (from either a mafia standpoint or for entertainment purposes)?

It's distracting and doesn't help us. You should only flavor claim if you can make a good (!) joke of it.

I think it's entertaining and fun. What's the point of Mafia?

[faust]

Are flavor claims a good idea (from either a mafia standpoint or for entertainment purposes)?

It's distracting and doesn't help us. You should only flavor claim if you can make a good (!) joke of it.

I think it's entertaining and fun. What's the point of Mafia?

Well I disagree on both accounts.

[Roadrunner7671]

Are flavor claims a good idea (from either a mafia standpoint or for entertainment purposes)?

It's distracting and doesn't help us. You should only flavor claim if you can make a good (!) joke of it.

I think it's entertaining and fun. What's the point of Mafia?

Well I disagree on both accounts.

Oh, well. We'll learn as the game progresses.

[Witherweaver]

So far I like yuma and Axxle for not doing stupid RVS. WW votes for Axxle for skipping RVS. Meh. That's probably town. ADk thinks he has to immediately have an opinion on silver's self-vote.

Vote: ADK

It's not really skipping RVS if you're faking it.

[Roadrunner7671]

Let's try to be helpful!

Can someone direct me to a goid game to reread Axeele?

[Roadrunner7671]

Axxele

[Axxle]

Are flavor claims a good idea (from either a mafia standpoint or for entertainment purposes)?

It's distracting and doesn't help us. You should only flavor claim if you can make a good (!) joke of it.

I think it's entertaining and fun. What's the point of Mafia?

We definitely should *not* flavor claim. There's no guarantee that we're each a distinct card and that might give mafia even more information for killing purposes.

[Axxle]

Axxele

I want to do a catwalk and toss my hair hearing my name pronounced like that.

[Axxle]

Let's try to be helpful!

Can someone direct me to a goid game to reread Axeele?

I don't know, it's been a pretty long time since I've played. Philosopher mafia might be a good scum game, through I was an SK rather than mafia.

[yuma]

So far I like yuma

inert sally fields meme.

[Axxle]

I was a mime in Paris Mafia, which probably has no bearing on this game.

[Axxle]

Town here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11862.0

[A Drowned Kernel]

So far I like yuma and Axxle for not doing stupid RVS. WW votes for Axxle for skipping RVS. Meh. That's probably town. ADk thinks he has to immediately have an opinion on silver's self-vote.

Vote: ADK

I don't think I have to have an opinion, I just have an opinion. Saying your opinions is how you play the game.

[faust]

So far I like yuma and Axxle for not doing stupid RVS. WW votes for Axxle for skipping RVS. Meh. That's probably town. ADk thinks he has to immediately have an opinion on silver's self-vote.

Vote: ADK

I don't think I have to have an opinion, I just have an opinion. Saying your opinions is how you play the game.

I'm sure Awaclus disagrees...

Well your read on silver did not sound genuine. How did you expect him to react?

[A Drowned Kernel]

So far I like yuma and Axxle for not doing stupid RVS. WW votes for Axxle for skipping RVS. Meh. That's probably town. ADk thinks he has to immediately have an opinion on silver's self-vote.

Vote: ADK

I don't think I have to have an opinion, I just have an opinion. Saying your opinions is how you play the game.

I'm sure Awaclus disagrees...

Well your read on silver did not sound genuine. How did you expect him to react?

It's not a strong read and is already fading but considering how Awaclus-y Awaclus is being a less scummy reaction would have been just ignoring him.

[yuma]

So far I like yuma and Axxle for not doing stupid RVS. WW votes for Axxle for skipping RVS. Meh. That's probably town. ADk thinks he has to immediately have an opinion on silver's self-vote.

Vote: ADK

I don't think I have to have an opinion, I just have an opinion. Saying your opinions is how you play the game.

I'm sure Awaclus disagrees...

Well your read on silver did not sound genuine. How did you expect him to react?

It's not a strong read and is already fading but considering how Awaclus-y Awaclus is being a less scummy reaction would have been just ignoring him.

it is worth noting that in Trees Mafia that is exactly what ss did when he was scum...

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14331.msg549151#msg549151

so I think you might be projecting how you think you would react in this situation as town... or you are forcing a read as scum...

[Roadrunner7671]

Sorry, Forum Mafia has been the last thing on my mind. Do we think ADK is scum or silverspawn is scum?

[yuma]

Sorry, Forum Mafia has been the last thing on my mind. Do we think ADK is scum or silverspawn is scum?

I don't think either are at this point. You should be more worried about what you think that what "we" think for now.

[yuma]

cross posting so people see:

VLA Starting now until Wednesday evening. Only access will be on wife's phone, but I don't imagine I will be on that often.

I won't vote as I don't have a read and won't be away during deadline, but will be sure to catch up and vote when I get back. Sorry to be absent right when game is starting, but that's how it is sometimes.

[faust]

Fun facts about players in this game, using ash's records:

ADK mislynches twice as often as he lynches correctly. Man, do not trust that guy.
Awaclus has not enough stats yet because ashersky has too much work to do.
Axxle is under the retired players section. Welcome back from retirement, Axxle. It's harsh times for everyone. He has an insane correct lynch percentage (80%), but is also frequently mislynched.
chairs has only been scum once in 20 games. He averages at 40 posts per game.
faust's correct lynch rate is even higher than Axxle's, but the sample size is smaller. Also I have many mislynches, which stem from early games.
gkrieg has never been mislynched as town, but twice lynched as scum. Must be easy to read.
Hydrad has an amazingly high win percentage (8/11).
Joseph is apparently lynched frequently.
Roadrunner has never had a town PR in a normal game.
silverspawn survives an amazing 57% of his games.
Witherweaver has more often been nightkilled than lynched as scum.
yuma has only won 3 of his 9 scum games.

[Roadrunner7671]

Fun facts about players in this game, using ash's records:

ADK mislynches twice as often as he lynches correctly. Man, do not trust that guy.
Awaclus has not enough stats yet because ashersky has too much work to do.
Axxle is under the retired players section. Welcome back from retirement, Axxle. It's harsh times for everyone. He has an insane correct lynch percentage (80%), but is also frequently mislynched.
chairs has only been scum once in 20 games. He averages at 40 posts per game.
faust's correct lynch rate is even higher than Axxle's, but the sample size is smaller. Also I have many mislynches, which stem from early games.
gkrieg has never been mislynched as town, but twice lynched as scum. Must be easy to read.
Hydrad has an amazingly high win percentage (8/11).
Joseph is apparently lynched frequently.
Roadrunner has never had a town PR in a normal game.
silverspawn survives an amazing 57% of his games.
Witherweaver has more often been nightkilled than lynched as scum.
yuma has only won 3 of his 9 scum games.

So flavor is distracting but this isn't???

In all seriousness, these are interesting™

[faust]

So flavor is distracting but this isn't???

In all seriousness, these are interesting™

I feel like some of these are relevant. For example, I did not fully realize the Axxle is apparently really good at reading people. That will influence the way I treat cases he makes.

[A Drowned Kernel]

ADK mislynches twice as often as he lynches correctly. Man, do not trust that guy.

  Though I do feel like my reads have been getting better recently.

[Hydrad]

oh whoops this game started. Didn't notice until now...

[silverspawn]

Does the correct lynch % include games as scum? If so, then it's more indicative of how much you buss than of how good your reads are.

[gkrieg13]

oh whoops this game started. Didn't notice until now...

But didn't you /confirm?

[gkrieg13]

It was fun looking at the stats and seeing where everyone's lynch to mislynch ratios were.  I'm glad to say I'm right in the middle.  Looks like I get swayed too much by mafia.  I think that happened a lot more in my earlier games and a little bit less in the last few games

[A Drowned Kernel]

oh whoops this game started. Didn't notice until now...

vote: hydrad

[Hydrad]

Also I'm pretty sure that my winrate is not that high anymore. Once the stats get updated it will be a sad day.

[Hydrad]

oh whoops this game started. Didn't notice until now...

But didn't you /confirm?

Ya. And then I kinda... Forgot

[Hydrad]

But now I'm hereish!

[Hydrad]

Also goal for this game is to not lurk. Gl me

[2.71828.....]

It had been a tumultuous 24 hours since the kidnapping.  No one trusted each other anymore. Apothecary began accusing the other cards of not being as good of a combo and therefore more suspicious. Great Hall, Nobles, and Harem all scoffed at the idea that a non-Victory card could possibly think it was a better combo with Scout.

Vote Count 1.3

Witherweaver (2): gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671
Awaclus (1): Axxle
silverspawn (2): Awaclus, silverspawn
Axxle (2): Witherweaver, chairs
Hydrad (2) Joseph2302, A Drowned Kernel
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust

Not Voting (2): Hydrad, yuma

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Monday, March 7 at noon forum time.

[faust]

Also goal for this game is to not lurk. Gl me

Well, you're doing pretty badly so far, what with your 100% empty post rate.

[faust]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

I bet you the reasons you think he's not are the reasons I think he is.

[Axxle]

@e: can you update the numbers in the vote count?

[2.71828.....]

@e: can you update the numbers in the vote count?

yes

[Hydrad]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

This is super weird to me then. If my posts have really been so empty then how do you have a read on me already. The one thing I can think of is that I might be more likely to have empty posts as town? Hmm you get a scum point.

[Hydrad]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

I bet you the reasons you think he's not are the reasons I think he is.

Oh. So your read was serious also. Interesting.

[Axxle]

If your posts are empty, the fact they are empty is still information we can use to determine alignment.

[chairs]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

This is super weird to me then. If my posts have really been so empty then how do you have a read on me already. The one thing I can think of is that I might be more likely to have empty posts as town? Hmm you get a scum point.

Empty posting is a scum trait.

[Hydrad]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

This is super weird to me then. If my posts have really been so empty then how do you have a read on me already. The one thing I can think of is that I might be more likely to have empty posts as town? Hmm you get a scum point.

Empty posting is a scum trait.

Well I'll tell you right now. It's just a Hydrad tell I believe.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

This is super weird to me then. If my posts have really been so empty then how do you have a read on me already. The one thing I can think of is that I might be more likely to have empty posts as town? Hmm you get a scum point.

Empty posting is a scum trait.

Well I'll tell you right now. It's just a Hydrad tell I believe.

You have the power to change that, you know.

[Joseph2302]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

This is super weird to me then. If my posts have really been so empty then how do you have a read on me already. The one thing I can think of is that I might be more likely to have empty posts as town? Hmm you get a scum point.

Empty posting is a scum trait.

Well I'll tell you right now. It's just a Hydrad tell I believe.

You have the power to change that, you know.

Empty posts is a Hydrad trait, not necessarily a scum trait.

[silverspawn]

hey, first scummy post this game. vote: Joseph

[Hydrad]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

This is super weird to me then. If my posts have really been so empty then how do you have a read on me already. The one thing I can think of is that I might be more likely to have empty posts as town? Hmm you get a scum point.

Empty posting is a scum trait.

Well I'll tell you right now. It's just a Hydrad tell I believe.

You have the power to change that, you know.

And that's what I'm kinda trying to do. Because I dislike my lurky meta. But issue with me trying to create content post is it always sounds forced when I try to make content. And then I start getting called scummy. So then I stop posting like that and get scared to post at all. And then I end up lurking. So now I'm going to try a style where I just reply and don't worry about it to much. Which will end up in some empty posts but should result in more posts and actual content sometimes instead of just sit back and watch Hydrad.

[gkrieg13]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

This is super weird to me then. If my posts have really been so empty then how do you have a read on me already. The one thing I can think of is that I might be more likely to have empty posts as town? Hmm you get a scum point.

Empty posting is a scum trait.

Well I'll tell you right now. It's just a Hydrad tell I believe.

You have the power to change that, you know.

And that's what I'm kinda trying to do. Because I dislike my lurky meta. But issue with me trying to create content post is it always sounds forced when I try to make content. And then I start getting called scummy. So then I stop posting like that and get scared to post at all. And then I end up lurking. So now I'm going to try a style where I just reply and don't worry about it to much. Which will end up in some empty posts but should result in more posts and actual content sometimes instead of just sit back and watch Hydrad.

I support this stance

[Hydrad]

hey, first scummy post this game. vote: Joseph

Huh. I don't see it as scummy.

[Axxle]

I'm on board

vote: Joseph

[A Drowned Kernel]

I support this stance

Do you have any other opinions?

[Witherweaver]

hey, first scummy post this game. vote: Joseph

This is what trying to look town looks like.

Vote: Silverspawn

[gkrieg13]

I support this stance

Do you have any other opinions?

Not currently. I don't think Joseph is scum here

[chairs]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

This is super weird to me then. If my posts have really been so empty then how do you have a read on me already. The one thing I can think of is that I might be more likely to have empty posts as town? Hmm you get a scum point.

Empty posting is a scum trait.

Well I'll tell you right now. It's just a Hydrad tell I believe.

You have the power to change that, you know.

And that's what I'm kinda trying to do. Because I dislike my lurky meta. But issue with me trying to create content post is it always sounds forced when I try to make content. And then I start getting called scummy. So then I stop posting like that and get scared to post at all. And then I end up lurking. So now I'm going to try a style where I just reply and don't worry about it to much. Which will end up in some empty posts but should result in more posts and actual content sometimes instead of just sit back and watch Hydrad.

D1 pass. I actually support this because I know (as a lurker) how hard it can be to be like "ALL MY POSTS ARE FULL OF MEANING".

vote: silverspawn as I didn't feel like Joseph's post was at all scummy.

[silverspawn]

interesting.

[Axxle]

Playing kickball, ask me anything

[Joseph2302]

Anyway I don't think Hydrad is scum here for reasons.

This is super weird to me then. If my posts have really been so empty then how do you have a read on me already. The one thing I can think of is that I might be more likely to have empty posts as town? Hmm you get a scum point.

Empty posting is a scum trait.

Well I'll tell you right now. It's just a Hydrad tell I believe.

You have the power to change that, you know.

And that's what I'm kinda trying to do. Because I dislike my lurky meta. But issue with me trying to create content post is it always sounds forced when I try to make content. And then I start getting called scummy. So then I stop posting like that and get scared to post at all. And then I end up lurking. So now I'm going to try a style where I just reply and don't worry about it to much. Which will end up in some empty posts but should result in more posts and actual content sometimes instead of just sit back and watch Hydrad.

D1 pass. I actually support this because I know (as a lurker) how hard it can be to be like "ALL MY POSTS ARE FULL OF MEANING".

vote: silverspawn as I didn't feel like Joseph's post was at all scummy.

I agree, how was it at all scummy?
Ss made a case and I disagreed with it, why does that make me scummy?

[faust]

I agree, how was it at all scummy?
Ss made a case and I disagreed with it, why does that make me scummy?

It is definitely strange.

First, nowhere did silver make a case against Hydrad. Second, you are repeating exactly what Hydrad said two posts before. You're even quoting it! Why say the exact same thing again? Third, it seems weird for you to defend Hydrad, considering you're voting for him.

[chairs]

Now I'm starting to get confused as to who said what. unvote until I can reread to make sure I know what's going on.

[2.71828.....]

They found Explorer in a corner by himself sobbing.  "I....I just can't believe this is happening.....not.....on his birthday."

Vote Count 1.4

Witherweaver (2): gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671
silverspawn (2): Awaclus, Witherweaver
Hydrad (2) Joseph2302, A Drowned Kernel
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (2): silverspawn, Axxle

Not Voting (3): Hydrad, yuma, chairs

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Monday, March 7 at noon forum time.

[Awaclus]

I actually kinda non-RVS like where my vote is right now.

[Joseph2302]

I agree, how was it at all scummy?
Ss made a case and I disagreed with it, why does that make me scummy?

It is definitely strange.

First, nowhere did silver make a case against Hydrad. Second, you are repeating exactly what Hydrad said two posts before. You're even quoting it! Why say the exact same thing again? Third, it seems weird for you to defend Hydrad, considering you're voting for him.

Was a RV against Hydrad, Unvote.

[silverspawn]

Someone is being nervous.

[Hydrad]

hmm I thought Joesephs post could of been something that I'd post even if I thought they were scum.

But I guess it doesn't make sense when empty posting is the only thing I had done at that point.

[faust]

I agree, how was it at all scummy?
Ss made a case and I disagreed with it, why does that make me scummy?

It is definitely strange.

First, nowhere did silver make a case against Hydrad. Second, you are repeating exactly what Hydrad said two posts before. You're even quoting it! Why say the exact same thing again? Third, it seems weird for you to defend Hydrad, considering you're voting for him.

Was a RV against Hydrad, Unvote.

You're going to address my other points, or should I just vote: Joseph?

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't think Joseph or SS come off as scummy because of this incident.

[chairs]

vote: ww

[Roadrunner7671]

vote: ww

Vote: Chairs
This is lame.

[Witherweaver]

Defense!

[Hydrad]

vote: ww

real or RVS?

[Joseph2302]

I agree, how was it at all scummy?
Ss made a case and I disagreed with it, why does that make me scummy?

It is definitely strange.

First, nowhere did silver make a case against Hydrad. Second, you are repeating exactly what Hydrad said two posts before. You're even quoting it! Why say the exact same thing again? Third, it seems weird for you to defend Hydrad, considering you're voting for him.

Was a RV against Hydrad, Unvote.

You're going to address my other points, or should I just vote: Joseph?

1. No, ss didn't make a case against Hydrad, but the fact he found me scummy based on that was
2. Because I didn't notice it in the multiquote
3. My vote on Hydrad was an obv!RV with no meaning. And the whole case of "empty posts = scummy" is kind of BS anyway. It's D1, there's not usually much to post about.

[Axxle]

vote: ww

real or RVS?

We are absolutely out of RVS right now.

[Axxle]

@Joseph: you should consider changing your vote. If you don't know who scum is then try to scum hunt.

[faust]

3. My vote on Hydrad was an obv!RV with no meaning. And the whole case of "empty posts = scummy" is kind of BS anyway. It's D1, there's not usually much to post about.

If we're calling bullshit, then I say this is.

[Roadrunner7671]

3. My vote on Hydrad was an obv!RV with no meaning. And the whole case of "empty posts = scummy" is kind of BS anyway. It's D1, there's not usually much to post about.

If we're calling bullshit, then I say this is.

I'd agree I suppose.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I actually kinda non-RVS like where my vote is right now.

Why?

[Joseph2302]

@Joseph: you should consider changing your vote. If you don't know who scum is then try to scum hunt.

Vote: chairs for starting this "empty posts = scum" BS.
Also, chairs hans't contributed much other than empty posts, so according to his logic, that makes him scummy, right?

[Awaclus]

I actually kinda non-RVS like where my vote is right now.

Why?

Because it happens to be on a person that I think is scum.

[Roadrunner7671]

@Joseph: you should consider changing your vote. If you don't know who scum is then try to scum hunt.

Vote: chairs for starting this "empty posts = scum" BS.
Also, chairs hans't contributed much other than empty posts, so according to his logic, that makes him scummy, right?

Neither have I, right?

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Awaclus

[A Drowned Kernel]

I actually kinda non-RVS like where my vote is right now.

Why?

Because it happens to be on a person that I think is scum.

Right, I should have expected as much.

vote: ww, that's a lazy vote.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry I've been lurking hard core.  I'll get more into this tomorrow.

[Witherweaver]

I actually kinda non-RVS like where my vote is right now.

Why?

Because it happens to be on a person that I think is scum.

Right, I should have expected as much.

vote: ww, that's a lazy vote.

You're wrong.

[chairs]

@Joseph: you should consider changing your vote. If you don't know who scum is then try to scum hunt.

Vote: chairs for starting this "empty posts = scum" BS.
Also, chairs hans't contributed much other than empty posts, so according to his logic, that makes him scummy, right?

You might reread, I didn't start that fire. It was always burnin', since the world's been turnin'.

[faust]

Well, there are lots of scummy options right now... Joseph, WW, ADK. I might still like vote: ADK best.

[Hydrad]

gut feeling for now.

But I might go Vote: faust

[faust]

gut feeling for now.

But I might go Vote: faust

I guess it's at least a vote.

[silverspawn]

I don't know, it's in character for ADK to dislike self voting. And his vote for WW was understandable.

I'd rather vote: WW, although Joseph is also good.

[2.71828.....]

alliances began to form, hoping that a quorum could be reached to appropriately accuse someone

Vote Count 1.5

Witherweaver (4): gkrieg13, chairs,  A Drowned Kernel, silverspawn
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): Axxle
chairs (2): Roadrunner7671, Joseph2302
Awaclus (1): Witherweaver
faust (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (1): yuma, 

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Monday, March 7 at noon forum time.

[Roadrunner7671]

Okay, why WW? I mean, I feel like I could go for him later, but quicklynches are bad and we'd like to hear from him.

WW, where are you?

[Witherweaver]

Okay, why WW? I mean, I feel like I could go for him later, but quicklynches are bad and we'd like to hear from him.

WW, where are you?

Why do you think I'm getting quicklynched?

[Witherweaver]

And why would you go for me later but not now?

[Roadrunner7671]

Okay, why WW? I mean, I feel like I could go for him later, but quicklynches are bad and we'd like to hear from him.

WW, where are you?

Why do you think I'm getting quicklynched?

L-3 is a big deal and not something you should want.

[Roadrunner7671]

And why would you go for me later but not now?

Right now it's too early in the day to vote on big wagons, I don't want to force a claim. However, I don't want to make anyone think that I'm never willing to go for you.

[faust]

I don't know, it's in character for ADK to dislike self voting.

Do you happen to have a situation in mind where ADK states dislike of self-voting?

[faust]

And why would you go for me later but not now?

Right now it's too early in the day to vote on big wagons, I don't want to force a claim. However, I don't want to make anyone think that I'm never willing to go for you.

The sad thing is the from RR's perspective, this is even reasonable. That's where excessive derphammering has brought us.

[Awaclus]

Vote: WW

[Roadrunner7671]

And why would you go for me later but not now?

Right now it's too early in the day to vote on big wagons, I don't want to force a claim. However, I don't want to make anyone think that I'm never willing to go for you.

The sad thing is the from RR's perspective, this is even reasonable. That's where excessive derphammering has brought us.

I don't get it. See, now he's at L-2, so this makes even more sense.

[Axxle]

"You" meaning town or ww? Pedit: @rr

I think ww is pretty solidly town

vote: adk

Probably the worst vote on him right now, I think.

[Roadrunner7671]

"You" meaning town or ww? Pedit: @rr

Hmmmm, I've said 'you' quite a but. Could you please quote the sentence that you are questioning me about?

[Witherweaver]

"You" meaning town or ww? Pedit: @rr

I think ww is pretty solidly town

vote: adk

Probably the worst vote on him right now, I think.

'Worst' is hard to say, though ADK's was bad.  Awaclus and Silver were also bad.

[gkrieg13]

So looking back on stuff, I like Axxle here.  He seems to be doing genuine scum hunting / asking the right questions.

RR also looks townie here.

I'll trust Axxle on WW for now, no reason not to.

faust has also been asking good questions.

vote: ADK for now

[A Drowned Kernel]

L-3 is a big deal

No it's not.

"You" meaning town or ww? Pedit: @rr

I think ww is pretty solidly town

vote: adk

Probably the worst vote on him right now, I think.

Really? Worse than Awaclus?

[gkrieg13]

So far I like yuma and Axxle for not doing stupid RVS. WW votes for Axxle for skipping RVS. Meh. That's probably town. ADk thinks he has to immediately have an opinion on silver's self-vote.

Vote: ADK

Not everyone can skip RVS.  It is impossible to get anywhere without it.

[Witherweaver]

L-3 is a big deal

No it's not.

"You" meaning town or ww? Pedit: @rr

I think ww is pretty solidly town

vote: adk

Probably the worst vote on him right now, I think.

Really? Worse than Awaclus?

You would only think Awaclus' is bad if you know I'm town...

[Witherweaver]

Well, or suspect.  Point is you're voting for me.

[A Drowned Kernel]

L-3 is a big deal

No it's not.

"You" meaning town or ww? Pedit: @rr

I think ww is pretty solidly town

vote: adk

Probably the worst vote on him right now, I think.

Really? Worse than Awaclus?

You would only think Awaclus' is bad if you know I'm town...

I mean a lot of people voted for you fairly shortly after I did, which is significant. I'm not super sold on you being scum and if you were to be lynched and to flip town I'd be looking at Awaclus.

[A Drowned Kernel]

More to the point, I'm arguing against Axxle's categorizing my vote as "bad" when I gave an actually reason for it and wasn't jumping on an existing wagon, which I'd like him to explain.

[A Drowned Kernel]

And while we're at it, why is WW "pretty solidly town"?

[Axxle]

Okay, why WW? I mean, I feel like I could go for him later, but quicklynches are bad and we'd like to hear from him.

WW, where are you?

Why do you think I'm getting quicklynched?

L-3 is a big deal and not something you should want.

@rr

[silverspawn]

I don't know, it's in character for ADK to dislike self voting.

Do you happen to have a situation in mind where ADK states dislike of self-voting?

Yeah, pretty sure he said he'd auto vote everyone who self-votes in death note mafia. I don't think that was the only time, too..

[silverspawn]

RR is RR, but I think he still comes out scummy for this.

Axxle I would agree is towny. WW is pretty null.

[Axxle]

More to the point, I'm arguing against Axxle's categorizing my vote as "bad" when I gave an actually reason for it and wasn't jumping on an existing wagon, which I'd like him to explain.

The reason given wasn't good imo, and the position on the wagon (3rd) tends to come from scum a bit often (they try to get on a wagon before it really starts rolling)

I'm delaying judgement on how bad ss and Awaclus votes are pending their follow up posts.

Pedit: ss is scumhunting so his vote is good

[Axxle]

And while we're at it, why is WW "pretty solidly town"?

His votes and posts seem well reasoned and have town motivation. He along with a handful of others helped to push us out of a wonderfully quick RVS. Also, gut.

[A Drowned Kernel]

More to the point, I'm arguing against Axxle's categorizing my vote as "bad" when I gave an actually reason for it and wasn't jumping on an existing wagon, which I'd like him to explain.

The reason given wasn't good imo, and the position on the wagon (3rd) tends to come from scum a bit often (they try to get on a wagon before it really starts rolling)

I'm delaying judgement on how bad ss and Awaclus votes are pending their follow up posts.

Pedit: ss is scumhunting so his vote is good

I wasn't even aware anyone else was voting WW when I voted, TBH. Looking back, gkrieg's vote was a holdover from RVS and chairs was a non-commented on RVS-ish vote after RVS had clearly ended, so while in retrospect the WW wagon looks scummy I'd argue that I'm the towniest person on it.

And yeah, I think that a vote on Awaclus for acting entirely within his meta, however annoying that meta might be, is lazy.

[Axxle]

Looking back at chairs' vote I agree that you're both somewhat interchangeable. I feel better voting with Faust at this point though than those on the chair wagon.

Gkreig is a town gut read from me for now so I sort of just wrote him off.

And ww voted for Awaclus *after* he clarified he wasn't in that "nonRVS" ss vote stage anymore, unless there's some other meta I've forgotten.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Looking back at chairs' vote I agree that you're both somewhat interchangeable. I feel better voting with Faust at this point though than those on the chair wagon.

Gkreig is a town gut read from me for now so I sort of just wrote him off.

And ww voted for Awaclus *after* he clarified he wasn't in that "nonRVS" ss vote stage anymore, unless there's some other meta I've forgotten.

The meta is that Awaclus has declared that he considers explaining his votes and reads anti-town and can be somewhat frustrating to play with, in addition to pretty much always looking scummy and pretty much always being a safe vote.

[Axxle]

How often does he win?

[silverspawn]

How often does he win?

He's scum all the time, where he does pretty well.

[Joseph2302]

How often does he win?

He's scum all the time, where he does pretty well.

Same can be said of you.

[faust]

So far I like yuma and Axxle for not doing stupid RVS. WW votes for Axxle for skipping RVS. Meh. That's probably town. ADk thinks he has to immediately have an opinion on silver's self-vote.

Vote: ADK

Not everyone can skip RVS.  It is impossible to get anywhere without it.

The art is to seize every opportunity that presents itself to leave RVS. Theory talk is usually good, but would not have worked in a well-known setup like this.

[faust]

I don't know, it's in character for ADK to dislike self voting.

Do you happen to have a situation in mind where ADK states dislike of self-voting?

Yeah, pretty sure he said he'd auto vote everyone who self-votes in death note mafia. I don't think that was the only time, too..

Thanks. Though looking back, I mean he doesn't exactly vote for you for disliking self votes. This is the post in question:

I'm not a fan of automatically voting, but I think I would expect a different reaction to Awaclus's posts from town!silverspawn. This seems too flippant for him.

vote: silverspawn

ADK claims a read that is tied to your meta, so it must be more than dislike of selfvotes.

[faust]

And it's not good that ADK didn't point out what I just pointed out.

[faust]

To dig a bit deeper into the ADK wagon... I remembered that game where ADK got early pressure as scum (M53). He got to L-1 early on D1. I think I want to look that over and compare to here. Mind you, it was some time ago.

Let's see... he demands explanations for votes early on. Asking lots of questions, which is similar to here. He picks apart the reasons people vote for him.

Well, the overall defensiveness level seems similar here, but it could be a general ADK trait. I don't remember a game where he got early suspicion as town, so nothing to compare.

[yuma]

Have some free time so I'll do a quick catch up and see if I want to place my vote before leaving again...

Anyone want to do a quick tl;dr for me?

[silverspawn]

How often does he win?

He's scum all the time, where he does pretty well.

Same can be said of you.

err, no. It can't. I've been scum fewer times than average, not more.

[silverspawn]

And it's not good that ADK didn't point out what I just pointed out.

that I agree with

okay vote: ADK

[yuma]

Fun facts about players in this game, using ash's records:.

yuma has only won 3 of his 9 scum games.

This is incorrect then. I have won six times that I can remember... Maybe more?

Sea hag, masons and monks, GOP, Tree Mafia, Mean Girls and that won run by Voltaire that I was mod killed in (so ichi and ww won it for me, but I'll take it for a win.

Lost games I remember are: MIII, MV, wobbly mafia (as SK), Switch2, mcmc's second game... And I am sure others.

[faust]

Have some free time so I'll do a quick catch up and see if I want to place my vote before leaving again...

Anyone want to do a quick tl;dr for me?

I don't know, not much... some people voted for WW because he voted for Awaclus, then Axxle joined me in suspecting ADK. Also there was a thing where Joseph repeated something Hydrad said about himself (that his meta is lots of empty posts) and silver voted for him, and then some people suspected silver for that.

[faust]

Fun facts about players in this game, using ash's records:.

yuma has only won 3 of his 9 scum games.

This is incorrect then. I have won six times that I can remember... Maybe more?

Sea hag, masons and monks, GOP, Tree Mafia, Mean Girls and that won run by Voltaire that I was mod killed in (so ichi and ww won it for me, but I'll take it for a win.

Lost games I remember are: MIII, MV, wobbly mafia (as SK), Switch2, mcmc's second game... And I am sure others.

Well I should have added the caveat that some of the stats only go up to M58. Still sounds like you should have more wins until then.

[yuma]

gut feeling for now.

But I might go Vote: faust

I can sheep that. Two posts on opposite sides of this post. One saying lots of scummy options then going back to ask and then the "at least that is a vote" post

[faust]

gut feeling for now.

But I might go Vote: faust

I can sheep that. Two posts on opposite sides of this post. One saying lots of scummy options then going back to ask and then the "at least that is a vote" post

I assume ask=ADK? I took me a bit to figure that one out. I don't see why these things are scummy, so explain?

[silverspawn]

also it only counts normal games

[yuma]

gut feeling for now.

But I might go Vote: faust

I can sheep that. Two posts on opposite sides of this post. One saying lots of scummy options then going back to ask and then the "at least that is a vote" post

I assume ask=ADK? I took me a bit to figure that one out. I don't see why these things are scummy, so explain?

Yeah typo.

I don't know if I can explain why they are scummy in anyway that you would appreciate. Which is to say that they could go either way very easily and would probably be easily refuted by you regardless of your alignment. So I'll just say I found them scummy. Plus I see hydrad as townie right now so I don't mind sleeping him.

[Awaclus]

Vote: silverspawn

[yuma]

also it only counts normal games

All the ones I listed were normal games. I have typically done better as mafia inRMMM games...

[faust]

gut feeling for now.

But I might go Vote: faust

I can sheep that. Two posts on opposite sides of this post. One saying lots of scummy options then going back to ask and then the "at least that is a vote" post

I assume ask=ADK? I took me a bit to figure that one out. I don't see why these things are scummy, so explain?

Yeah typo.

I don't know if I can explain why they are scummy in anyway that you would appreciate. Which is to say that they could go either way very easily and would probably be easily refuted by you regardless of your alignment. So I'll just say I found them scummy. Plus I see hydrad as townie right now so I don't mind sleeping him.

Well fair enough. Just one more question: Why aren't you voting for me then? I'm not in any imminent danger in case you're worried.

[yuma]

Also to piggyback on hydrad town read I also have townies reads on gkrieg and chairs for howmthey responded to hydrad. In particular their posts that encourage or sympathized with hydrad wanting to post more.

Although I can totally acknowledge that my reads here might very well me just wanting to encourage more involved playing, which for early day one I am fine with having and leaning on, but am equally fine with revoking on later days if there are things that contradict the town reads

[yuma]

Oh I just forgot to vote. Or well I had voted but erased it on the iPad I am typing on to fix a typo and then forgot to put it back Vote: faust

[faust]

Alright, so yuma seems town which means I'll just hope that this is a phase and it'll go away once my amazing townieness becomes apparent.

Awaclus is apparently voting silver for sheeping me? I feel like silver sheeps me more when he's town, but I can't recall a game where he was scum and I was town right now, so who knows.

[A Drowned Kernel]

And it's not good that ADK didn't point out what I just pointed out.

I've moved past my silverspawn vote and wasn't really paying attention to the fact that people were questioning that, but yeah my vote for silver wasn't a policy vote.

I'm piling up the votes a little bit so here's some analysis of my wagon: Axxle I'm thinking is town, he seems genuinely engaged and is asking me questions and responding to me. faust is a little bit scummier, he expressed suspicion of me earlier, then changed his focus, and now is back on me now that there's an actually wagon. gkrieg and silver are a lot scummier though, their votes are basically sheep votes.

I also find yuma fairly scummy as it looks like he's doing a soft defense of me by pushing a wagon on one of the people voting for me, could be he knows I'll flip town and is looking for town cred for being off-wagon.

[Awaclus]

Alright, so yuma seems town which means I'll just hope that this is a phase and it'll go away once my amazing townieness becomes apparent.

Awaclus is apparently voting silver for sheeping me? I feel like silver sheeps me more when he's town, but I can't recall a game where he was scum and I was town right now, so who knows.

Actually I'm voting for silver because I was on the WW wagon just to cause reactions and then the wagon died so it became pointless, and I was voting for silver before that and I still liked the vote on him. Sheeping you might or might not be an arbitrarily large part of the reason why that's the case.

[faust]

I'm piling up the votes a little bit so here's some analysis of my wagon: Axxle I'm thinking is town, he seems genuinely engaged and is asking me questions and responding to me. faust is a little bit scummier, he expressed suspicion of me earlier, then changed his focus, and now is back on me now that there's an actually wagon. gkrieg and silver are a lot scummier though, their votes are basically sheep votes.

I also find yuma fairly scummy as it looks like he's doing a soft defense of me by pushing a wagon on one of the people voting for me, could be he knows I'll flip town and is looking for town cred for being off-wagon.

You realize that I have voted for you before any of the others joined,and didnot leave the wagon since?

The yuma read seems like a real stretch. I mean there are 4 people on your wagon, chances are at some point someone will have a scum read on one of them.

[faust]

Alright, so yuma seems town which means I'll just hope that this is a phase and it'll go away once my amazing townieness becomes apparent.

Awaclus is apparently voting silver for sheeping me? I feel like silver sheeps me more when he's town, but I can't recall a game where he was scum and I was town right now, so who knows.

Actually I'm voting for silver because I was on the WW wagon just to cause reactions and then the wagon died so it became pointless, and I was voting for silver before that and I still liked the vote on him. Sheeping you might or might not be an arbitrarily large part of the reason why that's the case.

Protip: If you want Awaclus to explain his votes, make public assumption about why you think he voted the way he voted.

[A Drowned Kernel]

We're getting closer to cracking the code!

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm piling up the votes a little bit so here's some analysis of my wagon: Axxle I'm thinking is town, he seems genuinely engaged and is asking me questions and responding to me. faust is a little bit scummier, he expressed suspicion of me earlier, then changed his focus, and now is back on me now that there's an actually wagon. gkrieg and silver are a lot scummier though, their votes are basically sheep votes.

I also find yuma fairly scummy as it looks like he's doing a soft defense of me by pushing a wagon on one of the people voting for me, could be he knows I'll flip town and is looking for town cred for being off-wagon.

You realize that I have voted for you before any of the others joined,and didnot leave the wagon since?

The yuma read seems like a real stretch. I mean there are 4 people on your wagon, chances are at some point someone will have a scum read on one of them.

You're right on that first point, I was misremembering the order of the conversation prior to my wagon forming.

It's not a super strong read, but I don't think its unsound reasoning. And he's not taking a strong stance on my wagon; maybe I'm just be egotistical but that seems to be the topic of the moment.

[yuma]

And it's not good that ADK didn't point out what I just pointed out.

I've moved past my silverspawn vote and wasn't really paying attention to the fact that people were questioning that, but yeah my vote for silver wasn't a policy vote.

I'm piling up the votes a little bit so here's some analysis of my wagon: Axxle I'm thinking is town, he seems genuinely engaged and is asking me questions and responding to me. faust is a little bit scummier, he expressed suspicion of me earlier, then changed his focus, and now is back on me now that there's an actually wagon. gkrieg and silver are a lot scummier though, their votes are basically sheep votes.

I also find yuma fairly scummy as it looks like he's doing a soft defense of me by pushing a wagon on one of the people voting for me, could be he knows I'll flip town and is looking for town cred for being off-wagon.

I am almost never off wagon, like 90% of the time I am on wagon regardless of alignment so for me to think or plan this way wouldbe a pretty dramatic frame adjustment for me.

Plus Cred for being off wagon on mislynches is way overblown and rarely actually given

[Roadrunner7671]

I'd like to point out (and don't vote for me because of this!) but no one has voted for me yet this game! It's pretty dope.
PPE

[yuma]

I'm piling up the votes a little bit so here's some analysis of my wagon: Axxle I'm thinking is town, he seems genuinely engaged and is asking me questions and responding to me. faust is a little bit scummier, he expressed suspicion of me earlier, then changed his focus, and now is back on me now that there's an actually wagon. gkrieg and silver are a lot scummier though, their votes are basically sheep votes.

I also find yuma fairly scummy as it looks like he's doing a soft defense of me by pushing a wagon on one of the people voting for me, could be he knows I'll flip town and is looking for town cred for being off-wagon.

You realize that I have voted for you before any of the others joined,and didnot leave the wagon since?

The yuma read seems like a real stretch. I mean there are 4 people on your wagon, chances are at some point someone will have a scum read on one of them.

You're right on that first point, I was misremembering the order of the conversation prior to my wagon forming.

It's not a super strong read, but I don't think its unsound reasoning. And he's not taking a strong stance on my wagon; maybe I'm just be egotistical but that seems to be the topic of the moment.

 I don't have any read on you at all and a slight one on Faust, so yeah maybe you are being a bit self centric but that I think is just how mafia works for a lot of people, me included.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'd like to point out (and don't vote for me because of this!) but no one has voted for me yet this game! It's pretty dope.
PPE

Swell, what about other people?

[Roadrunner7671]

I'd like to point out (and don't vote for me because of this!) but no one has voted for me yet this game! It's pretty dope.
PPE

Swell, what about other people?

Let's talk about other people!

Most everyone is null; I suppose Axxel is on the towny side.

I'd say SS and WW are more on the scummy side.

[silverspawn]

vote: RR

[Hydrad]

Oh stuff is happening!

PPE: 17? huh... lots of stuff is happening I guess. Time to read!

[Hydrad]

hmm first thoughts. I like axxle! he should play more games. I also think hes town right now.

Also on yuma. I find it interesting that he agrees with me on faust. It doesn't give me an alignment tell for him but I dunno. I guess I just wasn't really expecting anyone to follow on faust since I don't think hes ever been lynched day 1. And is barely lynched at all anyways.

[Hydrad]

Hmm but I guess I have to remind myself even if I don't think the person is going to be lynched showing that I'd have been willing is still useful.

[Awaclus]

Alright, so yuma seems town which means I'll just hope that this is a phase and it'll go away once my amazing townieness becomes apparent.

Awaclus is apparently voting silver for sheeping me? I feel like silver sheeps me more when he's town, but I can't recall a game where he was scum and I was town right now, so who knows.

Actually I'm voting for silver because I was on the WW wagon just to cause reactions and then the wagon died so it became pointless, and I was voting for silver before that and I still liked the vote on him. Sheeping you might or might not be an arbitrarily large part of the reason why that's the case.

Protip: If you want Awaclus to explain his votes, make public assumption about why you think he voted the way he voted.

Which part of that post explained my current vote?

[Hydrad]

Alright, so yuma seems town which means I'll just hope that this is a phase and it'll go away once my amazing townieness becomes apparent.

Awaclus is apparently voting silver for sheeping me? I feel like silver sheeps me more when he's town, but I can't recall a game where he was scum and I was town right now, so who knows.

Actually I'm voting for silver because I was on the WW wagon just to cause reactions and then the wagon died so it became pointless, and I was voting for silver before that and I still liked the vote on him. Sheeping you might or might not be an arbitrarily large part of the reason why that's the case.

Protip: If you want Awaclus to explain his votes, make public assumption about why you think he voted the way he voted.

Which part of that post explained my current vote?

well we got info on your WW vote at least!

progress!

[Awaclus]

well we got info on your WW vote at least!

progress!

I've always explained my old votes if the reasons were still relevant later.

[faust]

vote: RR

Well that didn't take long.

[faust]

hmm first thoughts. I like axxle! he should play more games. I also think hes town right now.

Also on yuma. I find it interesting that he agrees with me on faust. It doesn't give me an alignment tell for him but I dunno. I guess I just wasn't really expecting anyone to follow on faust since I don't think hes ever been lynched day 1. And is barely lynched at all anyways.

Back when I was starting out, I had like three D1 mislynches in a row. I have recovered from that. I have never been lynched as scum on D1.

[faust]

well we got info on your WW vote at least!

progress!

I've always explained my old votes if the reasons were still relevant later.

Well, then you can go ahead and explain your initial silverspawn vote!

[Roadrunner7671]

Vote: SS
I think my vote is okay here. Call this OMGUS, but SS started it.

[silverspawn]

interesting.

[Hydrad]

hmm first thoughts. I like axxle! he should play more games. I also think hes town right now.

Also on yuma. I find it interesting that he agrees with me on faust. It doesn't give me an alignment tell for him but I dunno. I guess I just wasn't really expecting anyone to follow on faust since I don't think hes ever been lynched day 1. And is barely lynched at all anyways.

Back when I was starting out, I had like three D1 mislynches in a row. I have recovered from that. I have never been lynched as scum on D1.

So even Faust used to mess up! I have hope

[Hydrad]

Vote: SS
I think my vote is okay here. Call this OMGUS, but SS started it.

Wait what? Is your reason for voting ss because he started it?

[Roadrunner7671]

Vote: SS
I think my vote is okay here. Call this OMGUS, but SS started it.

Wait what? Is your reason for voting ss because he started it?

No, I meant that may be what it looks like.

I'm voting SS because his scumhunting looks weak/forced and he's sort of been acti-lurking.

[Hydrad]

Vote: SS
I think my vote is okay here. Call this OMGUS, but SS started it.

Wait what? Is your reason for voting ss because he started it?

No, I meant that may be what it looks like.

I'm voting SS because his scumhunting looks weak/forced and he's sort of been acti-lurking.

Interesting

[silverspawn]

Vote: SS
I think my vote is okay here. Call this OMGUS, but SS started it.

Wait what? Is your reason for voting ss because he started it?

No, I meant that may be what it looks like.

I'm voting SS because his scumhunting looks weak/forced and he's sort of been acti-lurking.

Interesting

hey that's my thing. don't copy it.

[Axxle]

vote: hydrad

[Roadrunner7671]

Why does everyone think what I'm saying is interesting? It's really not.

[Roadrunner7671]

vote: hydrad

Why?

[yuma]

vote: hydrad

Lame.

[Axxle]

He's had like one post that's attempting to scumhunt, if that.

[Hydrad]

He's had like one post that's attempting to scumhunt, if that.

thats a pretty reasonable reason.

you get more towny points!

[iguanaiguana]

Just as quickly as alliances formed, they seemed to dissipate also.

Vote Count 1.6

Witherweaver (2): chairs, A Drowned Kernel
silverspawn (2): Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, gkrieg13
chairs (1): Joseph2302
Awaclus (1): Witherweaver
faust (2): Hydrad, yuma
Roadrunner7671 (1): silverspawn
Hydrad (1): Axxle

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Monday, March 7 at noon forum time.

[Axxle]

vote: adk

sorry, shouldn't try to stretch town on so many vote targets

I still think ss, ww, and Faust are town so those wagons are so weird looking to me.

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: adk

sorry, shouldn't try to stretch town on so many vote targets

I still think ss, ww, and Faust are town so those wagons are so weird looking to me.

What do you think of yuma?

[Axxle]

I think he's a decent scum candidate off the top of my head, but I'd have to review.

[Roadrunner7671]

Where is everyone?

[gkrieg13]

Where is everyone?

Hiding from scout

[Axxle]

Not everyone experiences leap day every year, I assume they were in suspended animation.

[Roadrunner7671]

Not everyone experiences leap day every year, I assume they were in suspended animation.

Wasn't that yesterday?

[Axxle]

True.

I suggest everyone evaluate your current vote and ask yourself if it would be better placed elsewhere.

[gkrieg13]

True.

I suggest everyone evaluate your current vote and ask yourself if it would be better placed elsewhere.

I don't really like a Hydrad vote here.  ADK has been sounding townier, so I guess I should move my vote.  faust seems town to me.

vote: yuma

I don't like the votes on chairs, Awaclus, and RR.  Not only do they dilute wagons, they just don't seem like very good votes.

[yuma]

True.

I suggest everyone evaluate your current vote and ask yourself if it would be better placed elsewhere.

I don't really like a Hydrad vote here.  ADK has been sounding townier, so I guess I should move my vote.  faust seems town to me.

vote: yuma

I don't like the votes on chairs, Awaclus, and RR.  Not only do they dilute wagons, they just don't seem like very good votes.

Why me out of the five people you don't specifically mention here? How is your vote on me any different than the ones on chairs, awaus and RR? Go vote WW or ss if that is your rationale for voting...

[yuma]

And Vote: gkreig
 immediately compiling to voting advice is a scumtell regardless of whether or Not my response is a Omgus vote.

[Roadrunner7671]

I suggest everyone evaluate your current vote and ask yourself if it would be better placed elsewhere.

I mean, is having my vote on a mildly scummy person better than not voting at all?

[Awaclus]

I suggest everyone evaluate your current vote and ask yourself if it would be better placed elsewhere.

I mean, is having my vote on a mildly scummy person better than not voting at all?

Yes. Not voting at all should only be reserved for late game situations and when you have to unvote so fast that you don't really have time to think about an alternative person to vote for.

[gkrieg13]

True.

I suggest everyone evaluate your current vote and ask yourself if it would be better placed elsewhere.

I don't really like a Hydrad vote here.  ADK has been sounding townier, so I guess I should move my vote.  faust seems town to me.

vote: yuma

I don't like the votes on chairs, Awaclus, and RR.  Not only do they dilute wagons, they just don't seem like very good votes.

Why me out of the five people you don't specifically mention here? How is your vote on me any different than the ones on chairs, awaus and RR? Go vote WW or ss if that is your rationale for voting...

Well it's you because you seem the scummiest to me.  I don't really want to vote for WW, but I would be fine voting for ss.

And your vote is a lot of OMGUS.  I think it's fine to comply with voting advice if it comes from someone you have a town read on, and you aren't very invested in the game yet.

[yuma]

Then say so when you vote? I guess... Do what ever you want. I am not your mom. And maybe my vote is Omgus partially but that doesn't mean my point isn't valid. And why aren't you voting for ss then?

[yuma]

Also... Why is axle (and gkreig in agreement) so concerned with getting votes consolidated. We are still like a week away from deadline. The way they talked about it and being somewhat oblivious to the game stTe while I am semi vla made it seem like we were much closer to deadline. We have time to have votes on single vote wagons if there are decent reasons for doing so.

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

[gkrieg13]

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

I would say masons should claim, but I've only played this setup as mafia so I'm not really sure

[gkrieg13]

Also... Why is axle (and gkreig in agreement) so concerned with getting votes consolidated. We are still like a week away from deadline. The way they talked about it and being somewhat oblivious to the game stTe while I am semi vla made it seem like we were much closer to deadline. We have time to have votes on single vote wagons if there are decent reasons for doing so.

I think it is always good to consolidate votes but you are right, I shouldn't be pushing it so hard.  I actually just don't think that the single vote wagons are on scummy people, it only has a little bit to do with the fact that they are single vote wagons as opposed to 2 vote wagons

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

Vote: RR

[Hydrad]

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

Vote: RR

really?

If anything this makes me think RR is a mason rather then scum.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: ADK

[gkrieg13]

I agree with Hydrad here.  I think this looks like RR that hasn't had a lot of town PRs

[A Drowned Kernel]

Trying to get people to talk about PRs when there's no reason to is scummy.

[Roadrunner7671]

Vote: RR

Weak. And lame. But also weak.

[yuma]

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

Vote: RR

Lame. Is this the second time I have called you lame?

Vote:adk

[Roadrunner7671]

Trying to get people to talk about PRs when there's no reason to is scummy.

If no one answers my questions, I can't get better at Mafia.
PPE

[yuma]

Vote: adk

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

Vote: RR

Lame. Is this the second time I have called you lame?

Vote:adk

You may or may not need a space, depending on how strict the mod is.

[Roadrunner7671]

Vote: adk

Okay dokey.

[chairs]

vote: adk.

I... think that might be L-2?

I've lost track.

[Roadrunner7671]

vote: adk.

I... think that might be L-2?

I've lost track.

This is how derphammers happen.

ADK might want to claim though.

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: adk.

I... think that might be L-2?

I've lost track.

This is how derphammers happen.

ADK might want to claim though.

See, he's doing it again.

[2.71828.....]

"So we now have four people all ganging up together." Began Wishing Well. 
"Don't you mean five?" Nobles asked.
"I only count to the number of cards that can be drawn by Scout.  I am that committed to him." Wishing Well concluded.

Vote Count 1.7

silverspawn (2): Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
A Drowned Kernel (5): faust, Axxle, Witherweaver, yuma, chairs (L-2)
chairs (1): Joseph2302
faust (1): Hydrad
Roadrunner7671 (2): silverspawn, A Drowned Kernel
yuma (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Monday, March 7 at noon forum time.

[faust]

That seems like a good wagon. I could also do gkrieg based on the way he voted for yuma, but really, the ADK wagon is the way to go.

[Axxle]

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

Masons should definitely not claim unless they're about to be lynched.
The Mason's buddy usually should not claim to save their teammate.
Masons should out each other to become ICs in lylo or mylo only.
Never out your partner.
Breadcrumb your partner in some way, like by never suspecting them during the game.

Guideline, not rules, etc.

[Axxle]

Also... Why is axle (and gkreig in agreement) so concerned with getting votes consolidated. We are still like a week away from deadline. The way they talked about it and being somewhat oblivious to the game stTe while I am semi vla made it seem like we were much closer to deadline. We have time to have votes on single vote wagons if there are decent reasons for doing so.

I think consolidation of votes is pro town. It's ok to have a wagon or two on one but not if the game starts to stagnate. The people who aren't doing much with their vote (applying pressure) *and* aren't attempting to scumhunt some other way aren't playing to their town wincon. I really don't want to play another game where we're  scrambling for a vote at the end of the day.

[Axxle]

7 days is nothing

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

Masons should definitely not claim unless they're about to be lynched.
The Mason's buddy usually should not claim to save their teammate.
Masons should out each other to become ICs in lylo or mylo only.
Never out your partner.
Breadcrumb your partner in some way, like by never suspecting them during the game.

Guideline, not rules, etc.

See, ADK? This is all I needed. Even if Axxel is scum, he still probably gave sound advice for town points, so we're done talking about masons now.

Thank you Axxel.

That wasn't so hard, was it, ADK?

[Axxle]

Trying to get people to talk about PRs when there's no reason to is scummy.

In a vacuum, sure. But it also comes from new town which is how rr's posts scream to me.

[gkrieg13]

Trying to get people to talk about PRs when there's no reason to is scummy.

Is it really?  There are certain roles that can be rolled where it would be beneficial for an early IC right?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Trying to get people to talk about PRs when there's no reason to is scummy.

In a vacuum, sure. But it also comes from new town which is how rr's posts scream to me.

I still like my vote where it is.

Trying to get people to talk about PRs when there's no reason to is scummy.

Is it really?  There are certain roles that can be rolled where it would be beneficial for an early IC right?

Not in this setup I wouldn't say.

[yuma]

7 days is nothing

7 days is 7 days. Don't make this blitz. Or we could blitz vote you. That could be fun.

[yuma]

Also... Why is axle (and gkreig in agreement) so concerned with getting votes consolidated. We are still like a week away from deadline. The way they talked about it and being somewhat oblivious to the game stTe while I am semi vla made it seem like we were much closer to deadline. We have time to have votes on single vote wagons if there are decent reasons for doing so.

I think consolidation of votes is pro town. It's ok to have a wagon or two on one but not if the game starts to stagnate. The people who aren't doing much with their vote (applying pressure) *and* aren't attempting to scumhunt some other way aren't playing to their town wincon. I really don't want to play another game where we're  scrambling for a vote at the end of the day.

Well sure scrambles are kinda crazy. But consolidation too early can be bad. What if the two/three we consolidate on aren't mafia? Then we go through day1 without any mafia getting any pressure. If you don't want the game to stagnate make it so. But I don't think forcing unnecessary consolidation is the way to do that. Unless it is you actively trying to get others to vote for particular players cause that is actually meaningful.

[Hydrad]

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

Masons should definitely not claim unless they're about to be lynched.
The Mason's buddy usually should not claim to save their teammate.
Masons should out each other to become ICs in lylo or mylo only.
Never out your partner.
Breadcrumb your partner in some way, like by never suspecting them during the game.

Guideline, not rules, etc.

oh interesting. I would of thought that masons should claim earlyish just because if one mason dies then scum could trade 1 for 1 potentially. although now that I think about it its actually not that bad of a deal.

But also in a game with potential doctors and stuff scum has to either keep the "IC's" alive or hope there is no one that can protect them and risk losing a shot.

[Hydrad]

Vote: ADK

L-1

[Roadrunner7671]

Okay, ADK seems sort of annoying here, but I'm not sure about scummy. Regressive? Maybe. But scummy? I'm not sure.

Looks at how hedgy I am! Isn't it awful!
But D1 reads are not my thing.
PPE

[Roadrunner7671]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

[Hydrad]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

[Roadrunner7671]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Yuma's post.)

[Roadrunner7671]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Hydrad's post.)

[yuma]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Yuma's post.)

Define this again. Cause I don't know what you are talking about Willis

[Roadrunner7671]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Yuma's post.)

Define this again. Cause I don't know what you are talking about Willis

As many people know, I'm pretty influential.

I say 'he's about to get hammered.' You say 'No he's not.'
If I was playing Jerk Mafia, I would've hammered him just to be right or something. I'm not really sure what my thought process would've been.

But I believe you know this. Trying to get a lynch now is scummy.

Therefore, Hydrad = mildly scummy

[Hydrad]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Yuma's post.)

Define this again. Cause I don't know what you are talking about Willis

As many people know, I'm pretty influential.

I say 'he's about to get hammered.' You say 'No he's not.'
If I was playing Jerk Mafia, I would've hammered him just to be right or something. I'm not really sure what my thought process would've been.

But I believe you know this. Trying to get a lynch now is scummy.

Therefore, Hydrad = mildly scummy

ahha but L-1 can give us information!
Information helps town!
Therefore, Hydrad = super towny

[A Drowned Kernel]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

Then why are you voting for me?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Yuma's post.)

Define this again. Cause I don't know what you are talking about Willis

As many people know, I'm pretty influential.

I say 'he's about to get hammered.' You say 'No he's not.'
If I was playing Jerk Mafia, I would've hammered him just to be right or something. I'm not really sure what my thought process would've been.

But I believe you know this. Trying to get a lynch now is scummy.

Therefore, Hydrad = mildly scummy

ahha but L-1 can give us information!
Information helps town!
Therefore, Hydrad = super towny

Admitting to rolefishing=super scummy

vote: Hydrad

[silverspawn]

come on, he didn't try to rolefish.

I'm not actually caught up so I don't have anything else to say.

[2.71828.....]

"But I love Scout!!!!!  I would never do anything to hurt him.  There is still time, just give me more time"

Vote Count 1.8

silverspawn (2): Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
A Drowned Kernel (6): faust, Axxle, Witherweaver, yuma, chairs, Hydrad (L-1)
chairs (1): Joseph2302
Roadrunner7671 (1): silverspawn
yuma (1): gkrieg13
Hydrad (1): A Drowned Kernel

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Monday, March 7 at noon forum time.

[Hydrad]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

Then why are you voting for me?

because I am still okish with your lynch if it happens to go through. I'm just saying I have a feeling like it might move to someone else as its day 1 and stuff. i could be wrong but its a feeling.

Admitting to rolefishing=super scummy

vote: Hydrad

it wasn't rolefishing. I don't care if you claim or not. Its more for information on how others act and stuff.

[yuma]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Yuma's post.)

Define this again. Cause I don't know what you are talking about Willis

As many people know, I'm pretty influential.

I say 'he's about to get hammered.' You say 'No he's not.'
If I was playing Jerk Mafia, I would've hammered him just to be right or something. I'm not really sure what my thought process would've been.

But I believe you know this. Trying to get a lynch now is scummy.

Therefore, Hydrad = mildly scummy

But you say my post. Did you mix up me and hydrad?

[yuma]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Yuma's post.)

Define this again. Cause I don't know what you are talking about Willis

As many people know, I'm pretty influential.

I say 'he's about to get hammered.' You say 'No he's not.'
If I was playing Jerk Mafia, I would've hammered him just to be right or something. I'm not really sure what my thought process would've been.

But I believe you know this. Trying to get a lynch now is scummy.

Therefore, Hydrad = mildly scummy

ahha but L-1 can give us information!
Information helps town!
Therefore, Hydrad = super towny

Admitting to rolefishing=super scummy

vote: Hydrad

Double vote adk

Ok with claim/hammer

[Roadrunner7671]

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Yuma's post.)

Define this again. Cause I don't know what you are talking about Willis

As many people know, I'm pretty influential.

I say 'he's about to get hammered.' You say 'No he's not.'
If I was playing Jerk Mafia, I would've hammered him just to be right or something. I'm not really sure what my thought process would've been.

But I believe you know this. Trying to get a lynch now is scummy.

Therefore, Hydrad = mildly scummy

But you say my post. Did you mix up me and hydrad?

Yes.

[gkrieg13]

intent to hammer

But not for a while because we have plenty of time.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: ADK

[2.71828.....]

Final Vote Count

silverspawn (2): Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
A Drowned Kernel (7): faust, Axxle, Witherweaver, yuma, chairs, Hydrad, A Drowned Kernel
chairs (1): Joseph2302
Roadrunner7671 (1): silverspawn
yuma (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive it took 7 to lynch.

A Drowned Kernel has been lynched!  He was a Mafia Roleblocker!  In order to accomplish his mission to destroy all combos with Scout, he infiltrated Scout's birthday party as Herald, but was really Ruined Village, who wanted to show the world that he was just as good as Scout.

Night Actions are due in 36 hours.  Day 2 will resume in 48 hours.

Thread Locked!

[2.71828.....]

Opening up a bit earlier so I can go to bed a bit earlier.  Hope no one minds too much.  If you do, lodge a formal complaint using this form


Day 2 Start

Everyone felt a little better after unmasking Ruined Village. 
"I can't believe he really thought that he was just as good as Scout." Apothecary scoffed. 
"Yeah, Scout provides so many more benefits." Began Mystic "Take deck organizing.  With Scout, I know exactly what I will find at the top of my deck.  He makes me so much better and I am grateful for the combo."
"That is nowhere near as good as his ability to put victory cards into your hand." Nobles countered.  "Isn't that right, guys?" He continued as he looked for some backup from his fellow Victory-type cards.
"Totally." Said Great Hall.  "I mean, as much as I know I am the best combo, you and Harem are numbers 2 and 3.  Isn't that right, Harem?"
"Wait, where is Harem?" Baron asked
"Uh, I think I saw Harem heading off over there." Crossroads said as he pointed to the hallway.
Wishing Well jumped up to go look for Harem, but came back only with a note:

"Well, I see you are still being persistent in your belief that Scout is such an amazing card.  You are all wrong!  In fact, Scout supports terrible, terrible things like sexism in Dominion.  Well, we have helped......take care of that issue for you.  You won't be seeing your precious Harem ever again.  Be warned!  More stern lessons will follow if you do not give up your foolish beliefs"

"This is awful!" Explorer cried. "I can't believe they would do such a thing!  First to Scout, now to Harem.  This has to stop.  We can't be bullied into giving up Scout.  We must stay true."

Inspired by Explorer's inspiring speech, everyone sat down to figure out once more who could have committed such heinous crimes.....

Faust has been killed in the night.  He was Harem, a Vanilla Townie!

Thread Unlocked

Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (10): yuma, gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671, Axxle, silverspawn, Joseph2302, Awaclus, chairs, Witherweaver, Hydrad

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Sunday, March 13 at 11PM forum time.

[Roadrunner7671]

Hydrad is towny because he put pressure on ADK, right? Maybe put pressure isn't the right word, but his interactions with ADK do not seem partnery.

[Hydrad]

Oh yay faust died. so hes town. I like faust meta. In a way hes the easiest person to read .

Also. Wasn't expecting ADK to be scum there. gj people

[gkrieg13]

Yay we got scum!

[Axxle]

"We"

vote: Joseph
He and adk ignored each other super hard yesterday

[yuma]

Early Day1 Reread of ADK:

votes for: ss, hydrad, ww, rr, hydrad, adk

People voting for ADK: faust, axxle, gkrieg, ss, axxle, ww, yuma, chairs, hydrad, adk

Final Wagon: faust, Axxle, Witherweaver, yuma, chairs, Hydrad, A Drowned Kernel

Interactions with:
ss: votes for, doesn't like interaction with awaclus
yuma: about ss/awaclus, states he finds me scummy, encourages others to look toward me
hydrad: votes for/critical of lurkiness, etc, accuses of role fishing
gkrieg: questions whether he has other opinions
awaclus: questions awaclus' vote
ww: votes, calls his vote on awaclus lazy, about his vote on him, questions why WW is pretty solid town
rr: about L-3 being a big deal, votes over the masons/PR thing
axxle: about awaclus and axxle's vote on him
faust is dead:

Lacks significant joint interaction with:
chairs - chairs does vote for him
joseph - no involvement either way from what I could tell


!!I really find gkrieg the scummiest for the following:
He votes ADK on post 208, third vote joining faust and Axxle, but removes it to vote for me on post 290. In between the following occurs: ss votes for ADK (then removes it to vote for RR, axxle removes his vote to vote for hydard, but then goes back to ADK)

post 283: ADK asks what thinks of yuma.
post 284: Axxle indicates I am a decent scum candidate and post 289, axxle indicates people should consolidate their votes.
Post 290: gkrieg votes for me

What I see here is scum!gkrieg voting for his partner at a time when he is at 3 votes. His partner specifically states that others should look at voting me (confirmed town to me) and another player, Axxle (probably not third partner) indicates he could be willing to vote there. Axxle also states that people should consolidate their votes. If this occurs the biggest wagon at that time is ADK and it will grow. So gkrieg changes his vote to me, leaving the biggest wagon to start a brand new one in anticipation that Axxle will join along with partner ADK. But before that can happen...

RR posts about the mason thing #298 and ADK votes for him and that start the ball rolling toward his lynch.!!



ss is also somewhat suspect, but gkrieg is a much better vote. if gkrieg is mafia then Axxle is very unlikely to be mafia I think. RR and hydrad seems unlikely as mafia as those were the two votes that got ADK in trouble. awaclus and axxle seem on the townier side of things from voting and interaction.

WW and chairs seem townierish. Joseph is completely and totally null.

Pops list: (Most scummy to less scummy)

gkrieg <<<<<<<Joseph<<WW, chairs<<<Awaclus<<(Axxle, gkrieg non-dependent)<<<RR, Hydrad, Axxle (Gkrieg non-Dependent)<<<<yuma

vote: gkrieg

tl:dr see the section where I bold the !!

[yuma]

"We"

vote: Joseph
He and adk ignored each other super hard yesterday

I noticed that as well. I just don't think the current f.ds meta is to ignore your partner. You want some sort of interaction... Right now for me Joseph is big fat question mark. Like I have zero insight on him, which makes him on the scummier side just via POE, but I think gkrieg is a much better lynch than him.

[yuma]

gkrieg <<<<<<<ss<Joseph<<WW, chairs<<<Awaclus<<(Axxle, gkrieg non-dependent)<<<RR, Hydrad, Axxle (Gkrieg non-Dependent)<<<<yuma

missed putting ss into this... see the bolded addition

[Axxle]

Opening up a bit earlier so I can go to bed a bit earlier.  Hope no one minds too much.  If you do, lodge a formal complaint using this form

"Error: Project access denied."

I wanted to complain that your link wasn't to a Rick Roll

[gkrieg13]

My voting history maybe doesn't look the best, but I'm not scum. ADK went from scum to null to scum again in my eyes. I don't think he would've self hammered if I had been his partner with intent to hammer. I think he would've let me hammer him instead to get some town cred

[Hydrad]

My voting history maybe doesn't look the best, but I'm not scum. ADK went from scum to null to scum again in my eyes. I don't think he would've self hammered if I had been his partner with intent to hammer. I think he would've let me hammer him instead to get some town cred

oh interesting point.

I actually like this point a lot.

[yuma]

My voting history maybe doesn't look the best, but I'm not scum. ADK went from scum to null to scum again in my eyes. I don't think he would've self hammered if I had been his partner with intent to hammer. I think he would've let me hammer him instead to get some town cred

I honestly don't know why ADK hammered. Honestly, if he had claimed PR I probably would have backed off... But I don't think he hammered to prevent you from getting town cred... mostly because you weren't really going to hammer

intent to hammer

But not for a while because we have plenty of time.

any time soon. Anyone else not voting for him could have hammered before you.

and frankly, had you hammered, you would have received zero town cred from me and probably from most everyone else... (guessing here, but the desperation buss hammer is generally the vote that gets the least amount of town cred from me)

[yuma]

My voting history maybe doesn't look the best, but I'm not scum. ADK went from scum to null to scum again in my eyes. I don't think he would've self hammered if I had been his partner with intent to hammer. I think he would've let me hammer him instead to get some town cred

oh interesting point.

I actually like this point a lot.

phooey

[2.71828.....]

Opening up a bit earlier so I can go to bed a bit earlier.  Hope no one minds too much.  If you do, lodge a formal complaint using this form

"Error: Project access denied."

I wanted to complain that your link wasn't to a Rick Roll

Updated the link. Should work now

[Joseph2302]

"We"

vote: Joseph
He and adk ignored each other super hard yesterday

I noticed that as well. I just don't think the current f.ds meta is to ignore your partner. You want some sort of interaction... Right now for me Joseph is big fat question mark. Like I have zero insight on him, which makes him on the scummier side just via POE, but I think gkrieg is a much better lynch than him.

I ignored most people D1, wasn't that active.

[Joseph2302]

Also, relooking at how D1 ended, I think RR is probably a Mason (although don't want a claim right now).

In terms of the setup, we know scum had a RB. which means there were at most 4 T rolls, and so we have at least 2 PR rolls. Not a lot of information, but it's something.

Also, 1 scum is dead, which is always good.

[Joseph2302]

I also doubt both other scum were on the ADK lynch, probably 1 was and 1 wasn't.

[Awaclus]

>there's not much going on in a mafia game
>go to sleep
>wake up
>scum has gotten lynched in the meantime


That was crazy.

[silverspawn]

I have no idea what is happening! Totally missed the end of the day because the election was going on.

I'll catch up now.

[silverspawn]

True.

I suggest everyone evaluate your current vote and ask yourself if it would be better placed elsewhere.

I don't really like a Hydrad vote here.  ADK has been sounding townier, so I guess I should move my vote.  faust seems town to me.

vote: yuma

I don't like the votes on chairs, Awaclus, and RR.  Not only do they dilute wagons, they just don't seem like very good votes.

Look there!

I don't really want to vote for WW, but I would be fine voting for ss.

You should rather vote for scum.

Then say so when you vote? I guess... Do what ever you want. I am not your mom. And maybe my vote is Omgus partially but that doesn't mean my point isn't valid. And why aren't you voting for ss then?

mhhhhh

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

errr where is this coming from? Let the masons decide that.

Trying to get people to talk about PRs when there's no reason to is scummy.

Scum or not,  I agree with that.

7 days is nothing

7 days is 7 days. Don't make this blitz. Or we could blitz vote you. That could be fun.

subtly discouraging the ADK wagon.

Okay, ADK seems sort of annoying here, but I'm not sure about scummy. Regressive? Maybe. But scummy? I'm not sure.

Looks at how hedgy I am! Isn't it awful!
But D1 reads are not my thing.
PPE

Town read on RR

Also on Hydrad for his wagon treatment and saying he's obvtown.

oh ADK self-hammers. Questionable move I think - I'd have put his lynch on like 80% or something... are 7 days really worth more than those 20%?

Oh yay faust died. so hes town. I like faust meta. In a way hes the easiest person to read .

Also. Wasn't expecting ADK to be scum there. gj people

errrrwhat? you were the deciding vote on his wagon. And you said you're okay with his lynch. So why didn't you expect him to be scum?

Yay we got scum!

Scummy

[silverspawn]

My voting history maybe doesn't look the best, but I'm not scum. ADK went from scum to null to scum again in my eyes. I don't think he would've self hammered if I had been his partner with intent to hammer. I think he would've let me hammer him instead to get some town cred

oh interesting point.

I actually like this point a lot.

Quite.

I like vote: yuma, ironically. I think he's being towny in the way that careful scum play would feel towny.

[yuma]

My voting history maybe doesn't look the best, but I'm not scum. ADK went from scum to null to scum again in my eyes. I don't think he would've self hammered if I had been his partner with intent to hammer. I think he would've let me hammer him instead to get some town cred

oh interesting point.

I actually like this point a lot.

Quite.

I like vote: yuma, ironically. I think he's being towny in the way that careful scum play would feel towny.

I actually called this in my qt and promised myself that I would react in a calm, dignified manner.

But you really don't like the points I make about gkrieg interacting with adk and potentially axxle as unwitting town to move the wagon to me?

I mean if you are adk and gkrieg partner I see that you have to react this way, but that is just confirmation bias working for me and I don't totally want to go there... yet.

Do you think I am scum based on how I interacted with adk and how he interacted with me (tried to move the wagon from him to me). I don't think I am the most townie but I certainly don't think I should be today's lynch...

[silverspawn]

But you really don't like the points I make about gkrieg interacting with adk and potentially axxle as unwitting town to move the wagon to me?

I do like them. I just think scum!you can make strong points. It's a compliment! I wouldn't vote for you if I thought you were worse as scum.

I mean if you are adk and gkrieg partner I see that you have to react this way, but that is just confirmation bias working for me and I don't totally want to go there... yet.

Do you think I am scum based on how I interacted with adk and how he interacted with me (tried to move the wagon from him to me). I don't think I am the most townie but I certainly don't think I should be today's lynch...

The only argument related to the ADK wagon was that you discouraged a short day - which could also make perfect sense from a town perspective.

I believe that you don't think you should be today's lynch. I always think I shouldn't be today's lynch. And I won't!

[yuma]

But you really don't like the points I make about gkrieg interacting with adk and potentially axxle as unwitting town to move the wagon to me?

I do like them. I just think scum!you can make strong points. It's a compliment! I wouldn't vote for you if I thought you were worse as scum.

Thanks for the compliment. I would rather you agree with me and vote for gkrieg though. Especially because your voting for me appears to be solely based on me making a strong case rather than any scummy interaction with ADK. Isn't that sort of backwards thinking?

I mean if you are adk and gkrieg partner I see that you have to react this way, but that is just confirmation bias working for me and I don't totally want to go there... yet.

Why would I act this way if ADK and gkrieg were my partners? You really think strong bussing is the way to go here after having a partner lost day1? What is the end game? Partner gkrieg gets lynched day2 and I have to fend off figuring out why I haven't been NKed for being so pro-town the rest of the game and get lynched day4? That isn't going to lead to a win...

The only argument related to the ADK wagon was that you discouraged a short day - which could also make perfect sense from a town perspective.

I was voting for ADK. Were you. Here, let me remind you:

Vote: adk

because of his vote on RR for the mason thing

followed by:

Welcome to M77: Blitz Mafia!

ah I have a feeling that he won't get lynched here and then another wagon will pop up and then they will have a higher chance of being lynched then this.

This feels like you asking me to hammer just so that I'll be right or something.
But don't worry, I'm not hammering in the here and now.

I think this post might be scummy though. 
(By 'this post,' I mean Yuma's post.)

Define this again. Cause I don't know what you are talking about Willis

As many people know, I'm pretty influential.

I say 'he's about to get hammered.' You say 'No he's not.'
If I was playing Jerk Mafia, I would've hammered him just to be right or something. I'm not really sure what my thought process would've been.

But I believe you know this. Trying to get a lynch now is scummy.

Therefore, Hydrad = mildly scummy

ahha but L-1 can give us information!
Information helps town!
Therefore, Hydrad = super towny

Admitting to rolefishing=super scummy

vote: Hydrad

Double vote adk

Ok with claim/hammer

which doesn't show that I wanted to avoid a short day. What I didn't want was to force consolidation of votes that early. Turns out that consolidation would have and did result in an ADK lynch.

But the real person who was trying to stop that from happening was gkrieg by turning a lynch onto me.

In addition ADK had this interaction with me:

vote: adk

sorry, shouldn't try to stretch town on so many vote targets

I still think ss, ww, and Faust are town so those wagons are so weird looking to me.

What do you think of yuma?

trying to start a new wagon on me at a time when he was at 3 votes and the largest wagon and Axxle was pushing for consolidation. It is what prompted partner!gkrieg to vote for me. You think ADK thinks... "man I am getting in kinda hot water... I know I'll push for a wagon on my partner instead?"

I believe that you don't think you should be today's lynch. I always think I shouldn't be today's lynch. And I won't!

And this isn't just me thinking I shouldn't be lynched. Arguably, I think I am one of the 4 or 5 most townie people currently in the game.

gkrieg should be the lynch today. I realized it the moment that ADK was lynched and flipped scum and my reread did nothing to solidify that as I saw the events line up in a perfect scum narrative and saw nothing else that made me think anyone else was definitively scum. I mean... we lynched scum yesterday! Why aren't you using that information to find scum instead of relying solely on today's interactions?

To put this in perspective... I feel strongly about this as I did the awaclus lynch in Fanfiction. This isn't just me casually pushing a lynch. This is me feeling really strong about a lynch. I rarely feel this way, but this just feels super right to me.

[silverspawn]

Why would I act this way if ADK and gkrieg were my partners? You really think strong bussing is the way to go here after having a partner lost day1? What is the end game? Partner gkrieg gets lynched day2 and I have to fend off figuring out why I haven't been NKed for being so pro-town the rest of the game and get lynched day4? That isn't going to lead to a win...

Uh, no, the thing you're quoting from me there is what you said. I just had it in my post as a quote fail.

[silverspawn]

hm, fine. vote: gkrieg   

[yuma]

Why would I act this way if ADK and gkrieg were my partners? You really think strong bussing is the way to go here after having a partner lost day1? What is the end game? Partner gkrieg gets lynched day2 and I have to fend off figuring out why I haven't been NKed for being so pro-town the rest of the game and get lynched day4? That isn't going to lead to a win...

Uh, no, the thing you're quoting from me there is what you said. I just had it in my post as a quote fail.

ok. good. Cause I was all like...     

[yuma]

hm, fine. vote: gkrieg

I'll be honest... even if I am not right here (but I really do think I am) this made me happy. Sometimes I just really need people to agree with me... even if just for a little while. So thanks!

[Joseph2302]

Final Vote Count

silverspawn (2): Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
A Drowned Kernel (7): faust, Axxle, Witherweaver, yuma, chairs, Hydrad, A Drowned Kernel
chairs (1): Joseph2302
Roadrunner7671 (1): silverspawn
yuma (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive it took 7 to lynch.

So, off-wagon were Awaclus, ss, RR. me, and Gkrieg.

Think there's probably exactly 1 scum in that list.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: Gkrieg

[Awaclus]

I need to read and stuff. but vote: gkrieg seems good enough for now.

[Awaclus]

That was supposed to be a comma.

[Roadrunner7671]

Final Vote Count

silverspawn (2): Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
A Drowned Kernel (7): faust, Axxle, Witherweaver, yuma, chairs, Hydrad, A Drowned Kernel
chairs (1): Joseph2302
Roadrunner7671 (1): silverspawn
yuma (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive it took 7 to lynch.

So, off-wagon were Awaclus, ss, RR. me, and Gkrieg.

Think there's probably exactly 1 scum in that list.

I think you know that for a fact, and I think that's because you're scum.
Vote: Joseph

[Joseph2302]

Final Vote Count

silverspawn (2): Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
A Drowned Kernel (7): faust, Axxle, Witherweaver, yuma, chairs, Hydrad, A Drowned Kernel
chairs (1): Joseph2302
Roadrunner7671 (1): silverspawn
yuma (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive it took 7 to lynch.

So, off-wagon were Awaclus, ss, RR. me, and Gkrieg.

Think there's probably exactly 1 scum in that list.

I think you know that for a fact, and I think that's because you're scum.
Vote: Joseph

I don't, but it seems very unlikely that both scum bussed their partner ADK, although it seems reasonably likely to me that one of them did. This, there's probably 1 scum on-lynch and 1 off-lynch.

[Joseph2302]

*Thus, not this

[chairs]

vote: gkrieg THIS IS L-1 ALERT THIS IS L-1

[Witherweaver]

Damn guys.  I've only skimmed so far.

[Witherweaver]

intent to hammer

But not for a while because we have plenty of time.

Vote: ADK

Question: Why does ADK prevent his partner from hammering?

[yuma]

intent to hammer

But not for a while because we have plenty of time.

Vote: ADK

Question: Why does ADK prevent his partner from hammering?

I made some points here:

My voting history maybe doesn't look the best, but I'm not scum. ADK went from scum to null to scum again in my eyes. I don't think he would've self hammered if I had been his partner with intent to hammer. I think he would've let me hammer him instead to get some town cred

I honestly don't know why ADK hammered. Honestly, if he had claimed PR I probably would have backed off... But I don't think he hammered to prevent you from getting town cred... mostly because you weren't really going to hammer

intent to hammer

But not for a while because we have plenty of time.

any time soon. Anyone else not voting for him could have hammered before you.

and frankly, had you hammered, you would have received zero town cred from me and probably from most everyone else... (guessing here, but the desperation buss hammer is generally the vote that gets the least amount of town cred from me)

But mostly the answer is that I don't know. It is compounded by the question of "why did ADK hammer himself at all?" I think he had a decent to good chance of not being the lynch by claiming or just wiggling out of it. But he did what he did and I think the evidence that I outlined indicate more toward gkrieg being scum than this uncertain point that is tied up in a large questionable move against him.

Honestly if I look at this I think ADK didn't hammer to do anything with partners or winning. I think he did it to get out of a game that he thought was a lost cause to move onto the next one.

[gkrieg13]

Woah let's not have a super short day guys!  I'm town and should get a chance to defend myself before I get quicklynched. Most of you haven't even reread!  I'm on mobile right now but will be by a computer later today.

[Roadrunner7671]

vote: gkrieg THIS IS L-1 ALERT THIS IS L-1

Why would you do this?

[Awaclus]

vote: gkrieg THIS IS L-1 ALERT THIS IS L-1

Why would you do this?

It's good to announce L-1 so people don't hammer by accident.

[Joseph2302]

vote: gkrieg THIS IS L-1 ALERT THIS IS L-1

Don't want a short day, end of D1 was crazy enough, people are still processing it.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: chairs

[yuma]

Vote: chairs

scummy

[gkrieg13]

Ok I'm going to reread for ADK partner interactions, but first I'll defend myself and make a few points.

1. So first off, yuma posted his initial case only 30 minutes after the game opened back up.  Usually scum tries to come up with some kind of plan during the night, where town waits for the day because they want to see the results of night actions.

2. ADK was a roleblocker, so we just know that we didn't roll TTTTT or TTTTTT.  That doesn't give us much now does it.

3. My early vote on ADK had just been a sheeping of Axxle, who I had a strong townread on early in the day.  My vote had stayed there for a long time, and ADK was sounding townier at that point.  He then voted for RR, which was a bad vote and I went back to having a scummy vibe on him again.

4. If you look at the timing of ADK's lynch at the end of the day, it just doesn't make sense for him to not let me hammer.  It would've at least gotten people to not immediately vote me the next day.  I had declared intent to hammer, meaning my vote was metaphorically on him, but I wanted to give him a last chance to say something.  Him hammering made it a short day, which is exactly why scum self-hammers.  It also set me up for a potential mislynch, which wouldn't be as obvious had he not self-hammered. 

Rereading D2 first:

I don't know why Axxle is anything but towny to people.  He didn't want the day to end super quickly.  I don't think that is a scum trait, even if scum is the main wagon. 

I don't think opening the day with "Yay we got scum" is scummy. 

I don't know why yuma is pushing my lynch so hard.  I don't think he is scum in this case, just misguided town. 

The main thing he needs to explain to me is why would ADK self-hammer in that situation!  It would've looked much better if I was his partner and hammered him than me staying off-wagon.  I think one reason he would self-hammer is if both of his partners were on-wagon, which would force people to look off-wagon for people to lynch.

[gkrieg13]

So from rereading D1, I have a town read on WW, RR, Hydrad, Awaclus, Axxle.  They were all viewed scummy by ADK in a case made by ADK that was very flawed.  It looked like him flailing to get a wagon going on someone else.

There really isn't any interaction with Joseph at all.  It looks like they ignore each other.  But Joseph really wasn't active D1.  He doesn't post at all once the ADK wagon really picks up steam. 

So of the people who are off-wagon, I would say ss and Joseph are the two I would look at more. 

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Gkrieg

back at L-1.

[gkrieg13]

ss:
  votes for himself, Joseph, WW, ADK, RR D1.

  Most of his posts are just votes, or discussion about the stats.  I think the time he left the ADK wagon is much scummier than the time I left the ADK wagon.  His vote on RR is also suspect, because it was right when RR started getting into the game and describing his reads on people. 

  He doesn't really have much of a presence D1 at all.  I don't remember if that is a scum!ss, town!ss, or just electionwatching!ss trait.

[yuma]

Ok I'm going to reread for ADK partner interactions, but first I'll defend myself and make a few points.

1. So first off, yuma posted his initial case only 30 minutes after the game opened back up.  Usually scum tries to come up with some kind of plan during the night, where town waits for the day because they want to see the results of night actions.
.........
I don't know why yuma is pushing my lynch so hard.  I don't think he is scum in this case, just misguided town. 

Nice hedging.

You are correct that I pretty much made the case during the night. Because as I said the first thing that popped into my head when I saw ADK was scum was that you were a very likely partner. So I went back and collaborated that during the night and spent the rest of it figuring out how to phrase it and then solidified it with a full reread.

I am pushing your lynch hard because you are the Prime Suspect in this. There isn't anyone else that comes close to being as suspicious as you. If there were I wouldn't be pushing as hard.

3. My early vote on ADK had just been a sheeping of Axxle, who I had a strong townread on early in the day.  My vote had stayed there for a long time, and ADK was sounding townier at that point.  He then voted for RR, which was a bad vote and I went back to having a scummy vibe on him again.

Let's quantify long, long time. You vote for ADK here, post 208. And then you unvoted him here, post 290. So less than 100 posts later, game time was about 29 hours. So a somewhat decent amount of time during which the wagon size on ADK stayed pretty stable. Axxle got off and then on, that was about it.. And sure you say that ADK was sounding townier at that point, but what of it? Again, the context! ADK suggests voting for me, Axxle implies he might, Axxle encourages people to consolidate their votes (ADK had the most votes at that time), but instead of consolidating your vote on ADK as Axxle recommends you move it to me in hopes (do you deny it?) that a wagon would form on me instead. Attempting to shift the attention and focus from ADK to me at a time when it appears vote consolidation is about to happen. But that plan was ruined when ADK jumped all over RR in a scummy way.

4. If you look at the timing of ADK's lynch at the end of the day, it just doesn't make sense for him to not let me hammer.  It would've at least gotten people to not immediately vote me the next day.  I had declared intent to hammer, meaning my vote was metaphorically on him, but I wanted to give him a last chance to say something.  Him hammering made it a short day, which is exactly why scum self-hammers.  It also set me up for a potential mislynch, which wouldn't be as obvious had he not self-hammered. 

It would not have gotten me to not immediately vote for you today. I am just one person but I think there is a large segment that doesn't consider panic hammers to be worth any town cred at all.

[yuma]

It looked like him flailing to get a wagon going on someone else.

You conveniently forget this:

vote: adk

sorry, shouldn't try to stretch town on so many vote targets

I still think ss, ww, and Faust are town so those wagons are so weird looking to me.

What do you think of yuma?

[gkrieg13]

I agree that my votes on the ADK wagon look bad, but IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE THAT HE WOULD QUICKHAMMER!  I'm not scum!

PPE: I don't get what I forgot

[gkrieg13]

Oh I get it now.  You are saying I was flailing to get a wagon going on someone else

[yuma]

Oh I get it now.  You are saying I was flailing to get a wagon going on someone else

You and he both.

[yuma]

I agree that my votes on the ADK wagon look bad, but IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE THAT HE WOULD QUICKHAMMER!  I'm not scum!

I am not saying it makes sense that he would quickhammer. I mean that doesn't make sense if you are scum or if you aren't scum. That was just a bad move. Period. It was unnecessary in any setting. He had a good chance of not being lynched. As a result I am concluding that the reason he quickhammered didn't have anything to do with strategy because the best strategy would be to claim and try to not get lynched.

So instead it looked like he was giving up. So it doesn't matter that you were willing to hammer because his other bad decision supersedes this and shows that strategy and winning stopped being a priority for him (if my estimation is correct of the situation... maybe he really thought that was the best play, regardless of your scumbuddyness to him... but I just can't see how thinking quickhammering yourself that way is ever a good idea).

[gkrieg13]

3. My early vote on ADK had just been a sheeping of Axxle, who I had a strong townread on early in the day.  My vote had stayed there for a long time, and ADK was sounding townier at that point.  He then voted for RR, which was a bad vote and I went back to having a scummy vibe on him again.

Let's quantify long, long time. You vote for ADK here, post 208. And then you unvoted him here, post 290. So less than 100 posts later, game time was about 29 hours. So a somewhat decent amount of time during which the wagon size on ADK stayed pretty stable. Axxle got off and then on, that was about it.. And sure you say that ADK was sounding townier at that point, but what of it? Again, the context! ADK suggests voting for me, Axxle implies he might, Axxle encourages people to consolidate their votes (ADK had the most votes at that time), but instead of consolidating your vote on ADK as Axxle recommends you move it to me in hopes (do you deny it?) that a wagon would form on me instead. Attempting to shift the attention and focus from ADK to me at a time when it appears vote consolidation is about to happen. But that plan was ruined when ADK jumped all over RR in a scummy way.

I will say that I didn't say long, long time. 

I didn't hope that a wagon would form on you.  I just thought you were scummier than ADK at that point in time.  I don't think it was obvious at that time that vote consolidation was going to happen.  I was also pushing vote consolidation with Axxle

Oh I get it now.  You are saying I was flailing to get a wagon going on someone else

You and he both.

I don't think I would've tried to push another wagon at that time if I were scum.  The wagon had stayed the same for a while and looked like it was going to die off.  I don't think it was as apparent as you make it sound that the wagon was going to lynch

PPE: 1

[gkrieg13]

Man now I know how ash feels when people are mislynching him.

[yuma]

Ok. That is all good info. I have read it and considered it.

Keep in mind that I am cautiously looking over my shoulder at what I have posted to make sure that I am not being narrowly closed minded about this. I am trying to be open to what you are saying. But it is difficult because I feel really good about this, and I rarely feel this good about a lynch. When ADK was lynched and flipped this light bulb went off in my head and everything that I have gone back to find collaborate this narrative that popped up for you being scum.

I mean, you do present some good narratives and explanations. If I didn't feel as confident as I do (and I am trying to not be stupidly confident) they might be enough to make me want to vote for someone else who is as scummy or more scummy. But right now, your explanations don't do enough to make me want to stop voting for you and there is a lack of anyone else that fits the bill quite as well as you do. I mean the next closest is maybe Joseph who is pretty much a null when it comes to ADK.

[Awaclus]

Man now I know how ash feels when people are mislynching him.

Why ash in particular?

[gkrieg13]

Man now I know how ash feels when people are mislynching him.

Why ash in particular?

Mainly because I know understand why he would self-hammer. 

[gkrieg13]

Ok. That is all good info. I have read it and considered it.

Keep in mind that I am cautiously looking over my shoulder at what I have posted to make sure that I am not being narrowly closed minded about this. I am trying to be open to what you are saying. But it is difficult because I feel really good about this, and I rarely feel this good about a lynch. When ADK was lynched and flipped this light bulb went off in my head and everything that I have gone back to find collaborate this narrative that popped up for you being scum.

I mean, you do present some good narratives and explanations. If I didn't feel as confident as I do (and I am trying to not be stupidly confident) they might be enough to make me want to vote for someone else who is as scummy or more scummy. But right now, your explanations don't do enough to make me want to stop voting for you and there is a lack of anyone else that fits the bill quite as well as you do. I mean the next closest is maybe Joseph who is pretty much a null when it comes to ADK.

I don't know what else I can do to convince you.  Usually there is more game to go off of, but because D1 was super short, there isn't that much evidence on anyone.  I think ss is probably who I would look at next, because he was also on the ADK wagon and then off of it.

To be honest, there isn't that much evidence that I'm town because the day was so short.  I would look at how I reacted to the early pressure of people voting me the most.  If you have time to look at other games, you could look at how I usually respond to the pressure as scum in my most recent scum game HPII and see if it compares.  I might do that when I have time later today.

I really need to do a homework assignment, but I'm very determined to avoid my first mislynch, so I've stayed online for way longer than I should've.

[yuma]

Yeah... I mean if you are town then it is a series of unfortunate events that aligned to make you look sufficiently scummy. There isn't much you can do about that. I mean your tone and attitude right now make me feel townier on you but not enough to make me want to move my vote, partially because that is just totally gut based and I don't like being manipulated (manipulated is the wrong word, but can't think of a better one) by tone and attitude.

But really, I just think you are mafia in a bad situation doing a pretty good job of trying to convince others to not lynch you. So good job to you either way, I think you have done a decent job of trying your best to not get lynched... it just isn't enough for me. And who knows... maybe this is working on other people and you won't get lynched.

ss is a decent place to look, you are right. As you both have similar behaviors in regard to the ADK wagon. But the circumstances of your interactions are much more scummy than his.

[silverspawn]

productive wagon. I approve. However let us unvote as I don't think gkrieg is actually scum

vote: Awaclus

[iguanaiguana]

After the rush of uncovering that herald had lied, accusations started to fly around at lightning speed. Everyone was trying to determine who most zealously pursued his ruin.

Vote Count 2.1
Gkrieg13 (4): Yuma, Awaclus, Chairs, Witherweaver (L-2)
Joseph2302 (2): Axxle, Roadrunner7671
Awaclus (1): silverspawn
Chairs (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (2): gkrieg13, Hydrad

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Sunday, March 13 at 11PM forum time.

[Awaclus]

productive wagon. I approve. However let us unvote as I don't think gkrieg is actually scum

vote: Awaclus

Unproductive wagon. I disapprove. You should unvote because I don't think Awaclus is actually scum.

[gkrieg13]

vote: Joseph2302

[Joseph2302]

vote: Joseph2302

Um why?

[gkrieg13]

vote: Joseph2302

Um why?

Well it was between you and ss and he seemed less scummy.

[chairs]

vote: gkrieg THIS IS L-1 ALERT THIS IS L-1

Why would you do this?

I don't think "avoiding L-1" is worth "not expressing your opinion", and voting is how you express your opinion most succintly in mafia.

[Roadrunner7671]

vote: gkrieg THIS IS L-1 ALERT THIS IS L-1

Why would you do this?

I don't think "avoiding L-1" is worth "not expressing your opinion", and voting is how you express your opinion most succintly in mafia.

You could've said 'consider me on the wagon' or 'intent to hammer' or something.

[yuma]

vote: gkrieg THIS IS L-1 ALERT THIS IS L-1

Why would you do this?

I don't think "avoiding L-1" is worth "not expressing your opinion", and voting is how you express your opinion most succintly in mafia.

You could've said 'consider me on the wagon' or 'intent to hammer' or something.

and then gotten flak for not putting his money where his mouth is and people wouldn't have taken it seriously and maybe we wouldn't have obtained the response that we did from gkireg (not that it changed my mind, but there is a scenario where gkrieg of either alignment does something to indicate to the mass of us his alignment that he otherwise would not have done if he weren't at L-1. Pressure voting just for the sake of pressure voting, but so is not voting when you have a specific scum read on someone...

chairs did nothing wrong

[gkrieg13]

vote: gkrieg THIS IS L-1 ALERT THIS IS L-1

Why would you do this?

I don't think "avoiding L-1" is worth "not expressing your opinion", and voting is how you express your opinion most succintly in mafia.

You could've said 'consider me on the wagon' or 'intent to hammer' or something.

Anything that isn't hammering is a good vote.  We only do intent to hammer because we want to give someone a last chance to say something.  If anyone had hammered me, they would've been the prime lynch candidate tomorrow.

[Hydrad]

True.

I suggest everyone evaluate your current vote and ask yourself if it would be better placed elsewhere.

I don't really like a Hydrad vote here.  ADK has been sounding townier, so I guess I should move my vote.  faust seems town to me.

vote: yuma

I don't like the votes on chairs, Awaclus, and RR.  Not only do they dilute wagons, they just don't seem like very good votes.

Look there!

I don't really want to vote for WW, but I would be fine voting for ss.

You should rather vote for scum.

Then say so when you vote? I guess... Do what ever you want. I am not your mom. And maybe my vote is Omgus partially but that doesn't mean my point isn't valid. And why aren't you voting for ss then?

mhhhhh

I'm not trying to change the subject on purpose/talk about irrelevant things, but can we talk about Masons?

-Is it a good idea to claim Masons as scum?
-Should Masons out each other to become ICs ever?
-If so, when?
-If you know your Mason buddy is an IC, should you claim to save them?
-If you're a Mason who's about to get lynched, should you out your partner to save yourself as a VT?
-As a PR?

errr where is this coming from? Let the masons decide that.

Trying to get people to talk about PRs when there's no reason to is scummy.

Scum or not,  I agree with that.

7 days is nothing

7 days is 7 days. Don't make this blitz. Or we could blitz vote you. That could be fun.

subtly discouraging the ADK wagon.

Okay, ADK seems sort of annoying here, but I'm not sure about scummy. Regressive? Maybe. But scummy? I'm not sure.

Looks at how hedgy I am! Isn't it awful!
But D1 reads are not my thing.
PPE

Town read on RR

Also on Hydrad for his wagon treatment and saying he's obvtown.

oh ADK self-hammers. Questionable move I think - I'd have put his lynch on like 80% or something... are 7 days really worth more than those 20%?

Oh yay faust died. so hes town. I like faust meta. In a way hes the easiest person to read .

Also. Wasn't expecting ADK to be scum there. gj people

errrrwhat? you were the deciding vote on his wagon. And you said you're okay with his lynch. So why didn't you expect him to be scum?

Yay we got scum!

Scummy

Sorry on phone so can't easily take out quote.

Basically I'm just quoting the part where ss questions my ability .

So. My thinking on the adk vote was that we were stalling. So I put him at L1 to try to get more info and stuff like that. It wasn't so much that I thought he was scum. It was more I wanted something to happen.

And also I will say I really wasn't expecting him to get lynched there. I was really expecting it to sit at L1 for a while then we would move to someone else. As that's what seems to kinda happen day1. At least that's what I thought.

So ya that's my explanation.

[Axxle]

I don't think gkrieg would have acted how he did when the WW wagon was forming if he was ADK's buddy (unless he was planning on hard buddying me, but it's hard to imagine someone being that bold)

This vote by Hydrad is pretty bad in retrospect, happening immediately after Faust votes for ADK.

gut feeling for now.

But I might go Vote: faust

[Axxle]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: ss.

To me, the scummiest of the people off-wagon, and I'm pretty certain there was 1 scum off-wagon.

[silverspawn]

does it help if I guarantee you that you are not lynching me today?

[Awaclus]

does it help if I guarantee you that you are not lynching me today?

Yeah, as long as you can explain it later if it ever becomes necessary.

[silverspawn]

I can!

[Witherweaver]

does it help if I guarantee you that you are not lynching me today?

Sounds like a Governor soft claim!

[yuma]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

[yuma]

I don't think gkrieg would have acted how he did when the WW wagon was forming if he was ADK's buddy (unless he was planning on hard buddying me, but it's hard to imagine someone being that bold)

Can you go back and pull this quote and elaborate a bit more as well?

[yuma]

Joseph has moved himself up the scumminess ladder. But, surprise-surprise, I still prefer gkrieg.

[Witherweaver]

Awaclus was a food target yesterday.  Maybe slightly less now that ADK weakly white knighted him with my vote, but still.  I don't remember who else I wanted to lynch yesterday.  Silverspawn?

[Witherweaver]

*good target

[Axxle]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

[Axxle]

I don't think gkrieg would have acted how he did when the WW wagon was forming if he was ADK's buddy (unless he was planning on hard buddying me, but it's hard to imagine someone being that bold)

Can you go back and pull this quote and elaborate a bit more as well?

It was over a few posts so I don't really want to quote it on mobile, but I'll try summarizing

[Roadrunner7671]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

I thought you might get killed. Your reads are right 80% of the time (apparently) and you seem townish to me.

[Axxle]

I actually kinda non-RVS like where my vote is right now.

Why?

Because it happens to be on a person that I think is scum.

Right, I should have expected as much.

vote: ww, that's a lazy vote.

Right here the wagon on ww is gkrieg, chairs, adk. That would be scum, town, scum if gkrieg is scum. That's something scum might do but I find it unlikely unless there's another reason for it. Just before this chairs got a second vote on him. I think it's a bit more likely that adk was trying to shift interest from his wagon by creating a bigger one. Especially with gkrieg abandoning the ww wagon *just* as it really starts gaining traction... By joining the brand new, in the spotlight wagon on his scum buddy

So looking back on stuff, I like Axxle here.  He seems to be doing genuine scum hunting / asking the right questions.

RR also looks townie here.

I'll trust Axxle on WW for now, no reason not to.

faust has also been asking good questions.

vote: ADK for now

This just isn't what new scum would do.

rereading chairs right now.

[Axxle]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

I thought you might get killed. Your reads are right 80% of the time (apparently) and you seem townish to me.

So did I! Which is why I've been trying to figure out the Faust kill. Are my other reads just wrong day 1? We're faust's too dangerous?

[Roadrunner7671]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

I thought you might get killed. Your reads are right 80% of the time (apparently) and you seem townish to me.

So did I! Which is why I've been trying to figure out the Faust kill. Are my other reads just wrong day 1? We're faust's too dangerous?

I think the question we want to ask is 'did Faust act like PR?' and 'Did Axxel not act like a PR?'

[Axxle]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

I thought you might get killed. Your reads are right 80% of the time (apparently) and you seem townish to me.

So did I! Which is why I've been trying to figure out the Faust kill. Are my other reads just wrong day 1? We're faust's too dangerous?

I think the question we want to ask is 'did Faust act like PR?' and 'Did Axxel not act like a PR?'

Scum generally has more reasons for killing someone than PRness, though I'm glad you told us your reasons for killing him.

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm glad you told us your reasons for killing him.

>Blatantly accuses me of being scum
>Doesn't vote for me.
>Confusion on my end ensures.

[Axxle]

I'm glad you told us your reasons for killing him.

>Blatantly accuses me of being scum
>Doesn't vote for me.
>Confusion on my end ensures.

'Twas but a jest. I think you're pretty town if only for how adk reacted toward the end of day 1.

I've reread chairs, and I've probably got a very null read on him with a splash of scum from that speculation I made earlier. I'd be willing to look his direction if my main scum read wasn't the only person on his wagon.

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm glad you told us your reasons for killing him.

>Blatantly accuses me of being scum
>Doesn't vote for me.
>Confusion on my end ensures.

'Twas but a jest.

[Awaclus]

I'm glad you told us your reasons for killing him.

>Blatantly accuses me of being scum
>Doesn't vote for me.
>Confusion on my end ensures.

>greentexting
>punctuation
>capital letters
>the text isn't even green

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm glad you told us your reasons for killing him.

>Blatantly accuses me of being scum
>Doesn't vote for me.
>Confusion on my end ensures.

>Greentexting.
>Punctuation.
>Capital letters.
>The text isn't even green

We can't all be as cool as you Awaclus. But we can try.

[Joseph2302]

Rereading shortly

[yuma]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

Faust was a pretty obvious choice. He would have been my first choice. But sure go ahead... Knock your self out but I'll excuse myself now if I don't give any credibility to what ever you find.

[yuma]

I actually kinda non-RVS like where my vote is right now.

Why?

Because it happens to be on a person that I think is scum.

Right, I should have expected as much.

vote: ww, that's a lazy vote.

Right here the wagon on ww is gkrieg, chairs, adk. That would be scum, town, scum if gkrieg is scum. That's something scum might do but I find it unlikely unless there's another reason for it. Just before this chairs got a second vote on him. I think it's a bit more likely that adk was trying to shift interest from his wagon by creating a bigger one. Especially with gkrieg abandoning the ww wagon *just* as it really starts gaining traction... By joining the brand new, in the spotlight wagon on his scum buddy

So looking back on stuff, I like Axxle here.  He seems to be doing genuine scum hunting / asking the right questions.

RR also looks townie here.

I'll trust Axxle on WW for now, no reason not to.

faust has also been asking good questions.

vote: ADK for now

This just isn't what new scum would do.

rereading chairs right now.

Ok . I too am on a mobileish device and will wait til I am on a comp to go back and look at this fully. Looks like it might be somewhat compelling. But I will say right now that if you are considering gkrieg to be a new mafia then I think you are mistaken.

[yuma]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

I thought you might get killed. Your reads are right 80% of the time (apparently) and you seem townish to me.

So did I! Which is why I've been trying to figure out the Faust kill. Are my other reads just wrong day 1? We're faust's too dangerous?

And if this is the real reason you are questioning this then I am going to give even less credibility to anything that you find

[yuma]

^I just reread some of my posts and noticed they were a bit snippety. Sorry about that. I am sick and think my lack of sleep and nutritional food is getting the best of me and overcoming my attempts to be more friendly.

[Roadrunner7671]

^I just reread some of my posts and noticed they were a bit snippety. Sorry about that. I am sick and think my lack of sleep and nutritional food is getting the best of me and overcoming my attempts to be more friendly.

I agree with your statement about how gkrieg isn't new mafia, but I think your most recent reply (besides this one) is the only one that could possibly come off as snippety.

[yuma]

I actually kinda non-RVS like where my vote is right now.

Why?

Because it happens to be on a person that I think is scum.

Right, I should have expected as much.

vote: ww, that's a lazy vote.

Right here the wagon on ww is gkrieg, chairs, adk. That would be scum, town, scum if gkrieg is scum. That's something scum might do but I find it unlikely unless there's another reason for it. Just before this chairs got a second vote on him. I think it's a bit more likely that adk was trying to shift interest from his wagon by creating a bigger one. Especially with gkrieg abandoning the ww wagon *just* as it really starts gaining traction... By joining the brand new, in the spotlight wagon on his scum buddy

So looking back on stuff, I like Axxle here.  He seems to be doing genuine scum hunting / asking the right questions.

RR also looks townie here.

I'll trust Axxle on WW for now, no reason not to.

faust has also been asking good questions.

vote: ADK for now

I guess I am a bit confused. Are you trying to say that chairs is scummy because of the interaction? I don't quite understand why you feel this clears gkrieg...

[yuma]

Or is it more that the "new scum" you are talking about is ADK? He certainly isn't new! I mean, we are all new compared to Axxle the grandfather of f.ds mafia, but still...

Cause ADK votes for WW at post 187. gkrieg had voted for WW on post 81, the first post of the game. I think it is completely within reason for ADK to have completely forgotten that his partner was also voting for WW in a RVS vote. I know I don't pay all that much more attention to my scum buddies votes, especially the RVS one, and that is supposed that ADK is paying any attention at all when deciding to vote for WW (who I do think comes off townier from this interaction, as well as others as I have already indicated).

[Axxle]

It's two different thoughts:

I really don't think scum gkrieg would switch his vote there.

I think ADK voted for WW to take pressure off of chairs

I assumed gkrieg was new due to his posting style, I think what I said still stands though. Even veteran players are unlikely to be so bold.

[Axxle]

Above's in response to 450

[yuma]

It's two different thoughts:

I really don't think scum gkrieg would switch his vote there.

Ok... Now I think I am understanding better. So you see don't gkrieg, chairs and ADK voting for WW and then gkrieg switching his vote from WW (a good solid wagon) to his partner ADK, sheeping you and faust and making that the main wagon?

I guess I see your point to an extent. He abandons a nice wagon to help solidify one on his partner? I guess I don't really see any issue with him leaving the WW wagon. That was his RVS vote and those sort of things can only be maintained for so long before it starts to look weird as town or scum. But switching the way he did... there is merit to that argument. But I think it would have much more merit if he had kept his vote there instead of moving it to me shortly thereafter, which is basically the crux of my argument. That he joined a wagon on his partner to create some interaction, but when the wagon got to hot to trot he abandoned it and tried to start one up on someone else (me).

[Hydrad]

I'm still on the gkrieg seems towny right now side.

[Joseph2302]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

Faust was a pretty obvious choice. He would have been my first choice. But sure go ahead... Knock your self out but I'll excuse myself now if I don't give any credibility to what ever you find.

faust is usually a good choice for scum to target.
Scum want to kill the best town players, and he's definitely one of them IMO.

[Joseph2302]

I'm still on the gkrieg seems towny right now side.

I'm leaning that way too.
It seemed far too easy to get a wagon on him, which can be a sign it's a bad wagon.

[yuma]

I'm still on the gkrieg seems towny right now side.

I'm leaning that way too.
It seemed far too easy to get a wagon on him, which can be a sign it's a bad wagon.

That doesn't make any sense. There are two scum. One I think I gkrieg. One person not joining his partners wagon isn't going to be enough to stop it from rolling, especially if the points presented are strong, which they are here.

[gkrieg13]

I'm still on the gkrieg seems towny right now side.

I'm leaning that way too.
It seemed far too easy to get a wagon on him, which can be a sign it's a bad wagon.

That doesn't make any sense. There are two scum. One I think I gkrieg. One person not joining his partners wagon isn't going to be enough to stop it from rolling, especially if the points presented are strong, which they are here.

I agree. Also the ADK wagon grew pretty fast

[2.71828.....]

The sudden burst of energy faded quickly.  There was still a lot of hard work to be done

Vote Count 2.2
Gkrieg13 (4): Yuma, Awaclus, Chairs, Witherweaver (L-2)
Joseph2302 (3): Axxle, Roadrunner7671, gkrieg13
Awaclus (1): silverspawn
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (1): Hydrad

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Sunday, March 13 at 11PM forum time.

[Roadrunner7671]

Hydrad, which wagon do you prefer? Or do you dislike both?

[yuma]

So I did a quick full reread, instead of an ADK focused reread.

At this point, in this day, I could only see myself voting for Joseph or gkrieg. ss is scummyish, but there was enough from him that felt pretty towny to make me not want to lynch him.

I vastly prefer gkrieg, still. I feel there is more there to indicate he is partners, with some, I will admit to indicate that he isn't. Whereas with Joseph there is a complete lack. It wouldn't be a random lynch, but compared to gkrieg I think it would be pretty much a toss up.

[Hydrad]

Hydrad, which wagon do you prefer? Or do you dislike both?

Hmm between gkrieg and Joseph?

I guess Joseph if those are the only options.

Vote: Joseph

[Joseph2302]

Hydrad, which wagon do you prefer? Or do you dislike both?

Hmm between gkrieg and Joseph?

I guess Joseph if those are the only options.

Vote: Joseph

Out of them I'd obviously prefer Gkrieg.

[chairs]

I prefer the gkrieg lynch overall, but if we can't get consensus on it I think a Joseph lynch is meh at best.

[silverspawn]

mhhhh

[yuma]

mhhhh

What's your points on awaclus. He felt like he was unlikely(ish) to be ADK's partner in reread, but I can't remember specifically why, nor can I remember specifically why you want to lynch him.

[yuma]

an ss lynch is actually starting to feel better...

I don't like it when I talk myself out of something I feel really strongly about, but some of the points others have brought up about gkrieg are starting to get to me a bit more... plus ss isn't exactly screaming towniness

[gkrieg13]

an ss lynch is actually starting to feel better...

I don't like it when I talk myself out of something I feel really strongly about, but some of the points others have brought up about gkrieg are starting to get to me a bit more... plus ss isn't exactly screaming towniness

I'd be fine with ss or Joseph. More fine with Joseph.

[silverspawn]

I have no particular reason to want to lynch Awaclus, but I think he's a good default lynch if he's not towny.

an ss lynch is actually starting to feel better...

That's good!

[silverspawn]

I'd be fine with ss or Joseph. More fine with Joseph.

  

[yuma]

I have no particular reason to want to lynch Awaclus, but I think he's a good default lynch if he's not towny.

an ss lynch is actually starting to feel better...

That's good!

vote: ss

[yuma]

either town trying to goad me into voting for him... in which case... why?

or scum trying to goad me into voting for him... in which case... why?

[yuma]

does it help if I guarantee you that you are not lynching me today?

and honestly, I would rather you just flat out explain this completely so we don't have to go through three days of hand wringing to get there...

[gkrieg13]

I have no particular reason to want to lynch Awaclus, but I think he's a good default lynch if he's not towny.

an ss lynch is actually starting to feel better...

That's good!

vote: ss

Why not Joseph?

[yuma]

I have no particular reason to want to lynch Awaclus, but I think he's a good default lynch if he's not towny.

an ss lynch is actually starting to feel better...

That's good!

vote: ss

Why not Joseph?

because joseph isn't acting like he wants to be lynched...

[Hydrad]

ss is weird here. I don't know what hes trying to do.

[gkrieg13]

I have no particular reason to want to lynch Awaclus, but I think he's a good default lynch if he's not towny.

an ss lynch is actually starting to feel better...

That's good!

vote: ss

Why not Joseph?

because joseph isn't acting like he wants to be lynched...

Ok. I mean not right now, but how do you feel about Joseph?

[Hydrad]

But at the same time. would scum ss do this? hmm...

[yuma]

Ok. I mean not right now, but how do you feel about Joseph?

He is a sub-par lynch option compared to you. I wouldn't vote for him over you unless absolutely necessary.

I mean... it kinda boils down to information. Cause while I hate voting for information that is part of this. It isn't all of it by any means and I really hope people don't take this the wrong way cause I legitimatelly think that you have a good chance of being an ADK partner.

But if we lynch you and regardless of how you flip I think we start to get more information on Joseph, your lynch helps us figure him out.

Whereas to a lesser extent lynching Joseph doesn't help us figure you out as much. It will a little bit, but not as much.

You have been scummier, have more points toward you being scum and I thin your lynch will tell us more about the ? mark of joseph than the ? mark of joseph will tell about you.

[yuma]

But at the same time. would scum ss do this? hmm...

Who knows... remember this isn't normal scum. This is scum that lost a partner on Day1. The last time that happened to me, I fake claimed SK! When you lose a partner Day1 normal scum behavior changes dramatically.

But in answer to your question, I don't really know. But he certainly isn't acting townie... so the better question is why would town ss do this?

[2.71828.....]

Prods have been sent to Awaclus, Witherweaver, and Axxle.

[Awaclus]

Hi.

[yuma]

Hi.

Low.

[Witherweaver]

I'm here.  I've been going back and forth about Gkrieg.  I've thought about changing votes but don't really feel anyone else.  And also, when I think about his reaction to the wagon forming on him, it seemed very ... safe.  Like he found the obvious people townie and tried to go after whomever had the best chance of getting lynched other than himself. 

[Witherweaver]

I probably need a proper reread of ADK.

[chairs]

Awaclus is IC which means vote for him, right?

#notbitter

[2.71828.....]

It was a quiet weekend. Most cards just thought back on all the good times with Scout. But in the back of their minds, they knew that there were still two imposters in their midst.

Vote Count 2.3
Gkrieg13 (3): Awaclus, Chairs, Witherweaver
Joseph2302 (4): Axxle, Roadrunner7671, gkrieg13, Hydrad (L-2)
Awaclus (1): silverspawn
silverspawn (2): Joseph2302, yuma

Not Voting (0)

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Sunday, March 13 at 11PM forum time.

[silverspawn]

But in answer to your question, I don't really know. But he certainly isn't acting townie... so the better question is why would town ss do this?

You'll know in time. There's a perfectly good reason.

[yuma]

But in answer to your question, I don't really know. But he certainly isn't acting townie... so the better question is why would town ss do this?

You'll know in time. There's a perfectly good reason.

Well I would prefer to know now. My vote indicates that. I think others should add to it so that we get this explanation sooner rather than later and then can either lynch ss or move on with our day/lives.

[Witherweaver]

I'm content not lynching SS.

[yuma]

fine... i'll just ignore whatever is happening and go back to vote: grkieg until enough people agree with me.

[Joseph2302]

fine... i'll just ignore whatever is happening and go back to vote: grkieg until enough people agree with me.

I could do this if I have to, but I prefer an ss lynch.

[silverspawn]

vote: Joseph

[yuma]

unannounced L-1

[2.71828.....]

"so....I am thinking I know who the imposters are...."

Vote Count 2.4
Gkrieg13 (4): Awaclus, Chairs, Witherweaver, yuma (L-2)
Joseph2302 (5): Axxle, Roadrunner7671, gkrieg13, Hydrad, silverspawn (L-1)
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (0)

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Sunday, March 13 at 11PM forum time.

[silverspawn]

unannounced L-1

oh, you're right.

[yuma]

The frustrating thing is... I look at everyone voting for Joseph and I don't think I see a single person that would be willing to move over to gkrieg...

I have no idea what is going through ss's mind and apparently he wants it that way.

gkrieg obviously isn't going to go to himself

Hydrad, which wagon do you prefer? Or do you dislike both?

Hmm between gkrieg and Joseph?

I guess Joseph if those are the only options.

Vote: Joseph

I don't think gkrieg would have acted how he did when the WW wagon was forming if he was ADK's buddy (unless he was planning on hard buddying me, but it's hard to imagine someone being that bold)

RR I guess is maybe the only one that hasn't complete shut down the gkrieg mafia idea...

So I guess unless RR wants to consider moving his vote we are going to be stonewalled from going to gkrieg... so unless that happens... intent to hammer...

[yuma]

unannounced L-1

oh, you're right.

it is nice to be right sometimes.

[Axxle]

I mean if you want to play chicken and delay the game till the last few hours I might jump ship before you but I'd rather not do that.

That flash ss counter wagon is something I'd never be a part of today though.

[Witherweaver]

I don't get feels of Joseph.  Specifically from one post, the one about wagon analysis.  (Something like, "I think there is exactly one scum in this group."  I'll put it up later.)  It doesn't sound like something scum does here.. I feel you're a little more likely to hold back and watch how things go rather than try to spearhead the analysis.

[Axxle]

And I feel like stating the obvious doesn't spearhead anything.

[Witherweaver]

And I feel like stating the obvious doesn't spearhead anything.

Well, that doesn't mean it isn't an attempt to.

[Joseph2302]

unannounced L-1

oh, you're right.

So scummy

[Roadrunner7671]

Unvote
L-1 is not great.

[yuma]

I mean if you want to play chicken and delay the game till the last few hours I might jump ship before you but I'd rather not do that.

That flash ss counter wagon is something I'd never be a part of today though.

Are you talking to me? And if you are what are you saying? I feel like I always have to parse your posts and today I just don't have the energy to do that.

[yuma]

Unvote
L-1 is not great.

Why?

[gkrieg13]

Unvote
L-1 is not great.

Why?

[Hydrad]

I mean if you want to play chicken and delay the game till the last few hours I might jump ship before you but I'd rather not do that.

That flash ss counter wagon is something I'd never be a part of today though.

Are you talking to me? And if you are what are you saying? I feel like I always have to parse your posts and today I just don't have the energy to do that.

I think hEs saying if you waited till the last like few hours of the day he might move to gkrieg before you go to Joseph

[Axxle]

I mean if you want to play chicken and delay the game till the last few hours I might jump ship before you but I'd rather not do that.

That flash ss counter wagon is something I'd never be a part of today though.

Are you talking to me? And if you are what are you saying? I feel like I always have to parse your posts and today I just don't have the energy to do that.

The first sentence was directed towards you, the second was to everyone.

I would be willing to compromise on gkrieg but I really don't want to.

[gkrieg13]

yuma.  At this point I think we get the same information out of my lynch as we get out of Joseph's.  People are for and against both wagons in a way that they don't want to compromise to the other.

I'm not scum though, and Joseph has a good chance of being scum.  It is strange to me that RR jumped off his lynch when it got to L-1 though.

[Awaclus]

Unvote
L-1 is not great.

Vote: Joseph

[Axxle]

Joseph, can I hear your current thoughts on gkrieg?

[yuma]

I mean if you want to play chicken and delay the game till the last few hours I might jump ship before you but I'd rather not do that.

That flash ss counter wagon is something I'd never be a part of today though.

Are you talking to me? And if you are what are you saying? I feel like I always have to parse your posts and today I just don't have the energy to do that.

The first sentence was directed towards you, the second was to everyone.

I would be willing to compromise on gkrieg but I really don't want to.

Ok well I feel the same about Joseph. But I think I am less likely to play chicken than you are so I guess you win?

[yuma]

yuma.  At this point I think we get the same information out of my lynch as we get out of Joseph's.  People are for and against both wagons in a way that they don't want to compromise to the other.

I'm not scum though, and Joseph has a good chance of being scum.  It is strange to me that RR jumped off his lynch when it got to L-1 though.

I think at this point we start to. I guess my point really isn't fair. I think we will get more information if the person flips scum, obviously, than if they flip town. And I think you are more likely to flip scum than joseph so I expect there to be more information there...

With awaclus abandoning ship...

real intent to hammer

[Roadrunner7671]

Fine. I guess we just hammer people now.
Intent to hammer but not for around a day. Joseph, want to claim?

[yuma]

Fine. I guess we just hammer people now.
Intent to hammer but not for around a day. Joseph, want to claim?

i find you to be a curiosity...

[Roadrunner7671]

Fine. I guess we just hammer people now.
Intent to hammer but not for around a day. Joseph, want to claim?

i find you to be a curiosity...

In a good or bad way?

[Hydrad]

Now I'm getting cold feet.

Is there a third choice?

[Hydrad]

I feel like this wagon has been to easy for it to be on scum. But who knows

[yuma]

Now I'm getting cold feet.

Is there a third choice?

silverspawn. but gkrieg is mowr better!

[Awaclus]

Vote: gkrieg

I'm not abandoning ship, I'm just annoyed at RR's tendency to unvote whenever someone gets at L-1.

[Roadrunner7671]

Vote: gkrieg

I'm not abandoning ship, I'm just annoyed at RR's tendency to unvote whenever someone gets at L-1.

Deprhsmmers are bad, and Joseph should claim/put up a reasonable defense.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: gkrieg

I'm not abandoning ship, I'm just annoyed at RR's tendency to unvote whenever someone gets at L-1.

Deprhsmmers are bad, and Joseph should claim/put up a reasonable defense.

Says the guy responsible for all recent derphammers...?

[Roadrunner7671]

Vote: gkrieg

I'm not abandoning ship, I'm just annoyed at RR's tendency to unvote whenever someone gets at L-1.

Deprhsmmers are bad, and Joseph should claim/put up a reasonable defense.

I've never hammered besides my first game at LyLo.
Says the guy responsible for all recent derphammers...?

[Roadrunner7671]

I've never hammered except LyLo.

[yuma]

I've never hammered except LyLo.

Lie:

Vote: Yuma

LALL:
lynch all liars, literally

[Roadrunner7671]

I've never hammered except LyLo.

Lie:

Vote: Yuma

LALL:
lynch all liars, literally

That was one time, and you were scum, and I was frustrated, and you goaded me, and there's an asterisk because I was dead, and etc.

[yuma]

I've never hammered except LyLo.

Lie:

Vote: Yuma

LALL:
lynch all liars, literally

That was one time, and you were scum, and I was frustrated, and you goaded me, and there's an asterisk because I was dead, and etc.

whatever. the point is, high horse... not yours to sit on.

Plus, really derphammers are a fine and useful tool for town (if perhaps a bit overused of late). What isn't a fine and useful tool is panicking and removing votes anytime anyone gets to L-1.

[Awaclus]

Yeah, if you're going to remove your vote as soon as the person gets to L-1, it's basically as good as not voting at all. Which is super bad.

[Roadrunner7671]

Okay, okay. We'll start caring less.

If Joseph doesn't claim in one of his next few posts I'm probably hammering.

[yuma]

Okay, okay. We'll start caring less.

If Joseph doesn't claim in one of his next few posts I'm probably hammering.

That will be a trick given that he is at L-2 I believe

[Witherweaver]

In other news, we can always lynch RR~

[Roadrunner7671]

In other news, we can always lynch RR~

Always? You can't lynch me if I'm dead!
Dayvig: Roadrunner

[yuma]

In other news, we can always lynch RR~

Sounds fun, but not very productive on the hoping to actually hit scum front

[Roadrunner7671]

By the way, Joseph IS at L-1.

[gkrieg13]

By the way, Joseph IS at L-1.

If he is, then we already lynched him

[Axxle]

Now I'm getting cold feet.

Is there a third choice?

Chairs?

[yuma]

Gkrieg13 (4): Awaclus, Chairs, Witherweaver, yuma (L-2)
Joseph2302 (5): Axxle, Roadrunner7671, gkrieg13, Hydrad, silverspawn (L-1)
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (0)

from post 496,

RR unvotes Joseph (now at L-2)
Awaclus votes Joseph (now at L-1)
Awaclus unvotes Joseph (now at L-2) going to gkrieg

Currently voting Joseph is Axxle, gkrieg, hydrad, silverspawn (4) takes 6 to lynch, so looks like L-2 to me...

[yuma]

Now I'm getting cold feet.

Is there a third choice?

Chairs?

is pretty subpar choice given the way he put ADK to L-1 yesterday...

[Axxle]

Gkrieg13 (4): Awaclus, Chairs, Witherweaver, yuma (L-2)
Joseph2302 (5): Axxle, Roadrunner7671, gkrieg13, Hydrad, silverspawn (L-1)
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (0)

from post 496,

RR unvotes Joseph (now at L-2)
Awaclus votes Joseph (now at L-1)
Awaclus unvotes Joseph (now at L-2) going to gkrieg

Currently voting Joseph is Axxle, gkrieg, hydrad, silverspawn (4) takes 6 to lynch, so looks like L-2 to me...

I think that's correct

[Axxle]

Now I'm getting cold feet.

Is there a third choice?

Chairs?

is pretty subpar choice given the way he put ADK to L-1 yesterday...

L-2 but I don't see how it was that towny

[chairs]

Because I play too carefully to be on my scum partner's D1 wagon.

[Joseph2302]

Going to bed now, so short post.
I'm vt.

[yuma]

Now I'm getting cold feet.

Is there a third choice?

Chairs?

is pretty subpar choice given the way he put ADK to L-1 yesterday...

L-2 but I don't see how it was that towny

I am not saying he is the most townie player in the game but given the options we have of ss, gkrieg, and Joseph who werent on wagon and weren't especially townie either I think it would be pretty silly to go for him over those other three without a really good reason... And you haven't given one so I am shooting it down.

[yuma]

Can we lynch gkrieg now?

[Axxle]

vote: gkrieg

[gkrieg13]

Wait why are we lynching me?

[Awaclus]

Wait why are we lynching me?

Why should we not lynch you?

[gkrieg13]

Wait why are we lynching me?

Why should we not lynch you?

Well I'm town.  I thought I already listed reasons not to lynch me with help from others.

The main points are:

  I helped get the ADK wagon going even though I got off of it as it grew very quickly.

  My play both days with the exception of that vote has been sufficiently townie.

[2.71828.....]

"No, wait.....It's that other guy"

Vote Count 2.5
Gkrieg13 (5): Chairs, Witherweaver, yuma, Awaclus, Axxle  (L-1)
Joseph2302 (3): gkrieg13, Hydrad, silverspawn
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (1): Roadrunner7671

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 1 will be Sunday, March 13 at 11PM forum time.

[silverspawn]

ohhh it's so tempting.

[gkrieg13]

I'm really not scum though.  Someone should at least reread before they hammer

[silverspawn]

yeah I really don't feel amazing about your lynch.

Not going to hammer.

[Hydrad]

If it wasn't for your intent to hammer on ADK I'd hammer you. But thats the one thing that I just feel scum ADK wouldn't hammer himself on... unless he thought all of this through! dang. That would be impressive

[Axxle]

unvote

Really, I should wait on Joseph to make a substantial post.

[yuma]

If it wasn't for your intent to hammer on ADK I'd hammer you. But thats the one thing that I just feel scum ADK wouldn't hammer himself on... unless he thought all of this through! dang. That would be impressive

Or if he wasn't thinking tactically at all... Which he wasn't cause both you and me probably would have unvoted if he had claimed instead of self voting. You are asking why he did a crazy thing and there just isnt a good answer to explain craziness. Crazy is crazy.

[Hydrad]

If it wasn't for your intent to hammer on ADK I'd hammer you. But thats the one thing that I just feel scum ADK wouldn't hammer himself on... unless he thought all of this through! dang. That would be impressive

Or if he wasn't thinking tactically at all... Which he wasn't cause both you and me probably would have unvoted if he had claimed instead of self voting. You are asking why he did a crazy thing and there just isnt a good answer to explain craziness. Crazy is crazy.

true...

[yuma]

so one interesting thing that I am seeing about the gkrieg wagon is that neither joseph or ss have shown any interest in it despite being the alternative lynches...

what does that indicate?

[Witherweaver]

so one interesting thing that I am seeing about the gkrieg wagon is that neither joseph or ss have shown any interest in it despite being the alternative lynches...

what does that indicate?

They can't all three be scum!  Notably, Gkrieg was quick to jump on Joseph and SS as the alternative, right?

[yuma]

He did, more so with Joseph

an ss lynch is actually starting to feel better...

I don't like it when I talk myself out of something I feel really strongly about, but some of the points others have brought up about gkrieg are starting to get to me a bit more... plus ss isn't exactly screaming towniness

I'd be fine with ss or Joseph. More fine with Joseph.

[gkrieg13]

so one interesting thing that I am seeing about the gkrieg wagon is that neither joseph or ss have shown any interest in it despite being the alternative lynches...

what does that indicate?

They can't all three be scum!  Notably, Gkrieg was quick to jump on Joseph and SS as the alternative, right?

I will point out that I was at L-1 at that point.  Any lynch is better than my lynch

[yuma]

so one interesting thing that I am seeing about the gkrieg wagon is that neither joseph or ss have shown any interest in it despite being the alternative lynches...

what does that indicate?

They can't all three be scum!  Notably, Gkrieg was quick to jump on Joseph and SS as the alternative, right?

I will point out that I was at L-1 at that point.  Any lynch is better than my lynch

I am not necessarily giving it out as a critique. I am not sure what to make of it. But I did find it noteworthy that even when joseph went to L-1 he didn't move his vote to you. I don't know what to make of that either...

[2.71828.....]

"Nap time, everyone!"

Vote Count 2.6
Gkrieg13 (4): Chairs, Witherweaver, yuma, Awaclus (L-2)
Joseph2302 (3): gkrieg13, Hydrad, silverspawn
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (2): Roadrunner7671, Axxle

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 2 will be Sunday, March 13 at 11PM forum time.

[gkrieg13]

so one interesting thing that I am seeing about the gkrieg wagon is that neither joseph or ss have shown any interest in it despite being the alternative lynches...

what does that indicate?

It could indicate that they don't want to be off the D1 scum wagon and the hammer on the D2 mislynch

[Axxle]

vote: Joseph

[Joseph2302]

vote: Joseph

Great, back up to L-2

[yuma]

vote: Joseph

Great, back up to L-2

why aren't you voting for gkrieg?

Could it be possible that we have the two scums as our options today? joseph has been really hedgy about gkrieg aside from an early, early vote on him...

[Joseph2302]

so one interesting thing that I am seeing about the gkrieg wagon is that neither joseph or ss have shown any interest in it despite being the alternative lynches...

what does that indicate?

It could indicate that they don't want to be off the D1 scum wagon and the hammer on the D2 mislynch

Could do.
I've stated before that I think Gkrieg lynch is too easy, and I doubt scum are going to let us have 2 easy lynches in a game.
I don't want to just climb onto any wagon just to try and protect myself.

The D1 off-wagon set of people was {Awaclus, ss, Gkrieg, RR, me}, and I think there's almost certainly 1 scum in there.
My order of preferences for lynching would probably be ss > Awaclus > GKrieg > RR >> me.
Still think RR was softclaiming Mason on D1, so probably best not to lynch for now.

PPE:1

[Joseph2302]

vote: Joseph

Great, back up to L-2

why aren't you voting for gkrieg?

Could it be possible that we have the two scums as our options today? joseph has been really hedgy about gkrieg aside from an early, early vote on him...

It just doesn't feel right, and voting ss just feels right.
And as AdamH would say, "If it feels good, do it"

[Roadrunner7671]

vote: Joseph

Great, back up to L-2

why aren't you voting for gkrieg?

Could it be possible that we have the two scums as our options today? joseph has been really hedgy about gkrieg aside from an early, early vote on him...

As nice as that would be, the chances are against us. And I'm gonna have to pick a wagon, aren't I?

I'll do heavy rereading tonight just in case.
PPE 2

[Witherweaver]

Wait, why is Awaclus dismissed as likely scum?

[yuma]

I've stated before that I think Gkrieg lynch is too easy, and I doubt scum are going to let us have 2 easy lynches in a game.

for an easy lynch it sure has caused me to work up a sweat to push it through...

[Roadrunner7671]

Wait, why is Awaclus dismissed as likely scum?

Isn't Awaclus always scummy?
PPE

[Witherweaver]

Or was it RR?  Yuma said something about not lynching one of them.

[yuma]

Wait, why is Awaclus dismissed as likely scum?

I had reasons once upon a time, but I honestly can't remember what they were anymore.

I think he had better and more interactions with ADK than Joseph (I mean everyone did, so that isn't saying much) and not as blatantly scummy and significant as gkrieg

[Witherweaver]

Oh, this:

In other news, we can always lynch RR~

Sounds fun, but not very productive on the hoping to actually hit scum front

[yuma]

Or was it RR?  Yuma said something about not lynching one of them.

I think both are in the second tier of scumminess after the gkrieg/ss/joseph trio. Awaclus more so. RR was the one that ADK responded to that got him in so much trouble in the first place... RR is even maybe third tier.

[Awaclus]

Wait, why is Awaclus dismissed as likely scum?

Isn't Awaclus always scummy?
PPE

I'm never scummy.

[Roadrunner7671]

Or was it RR?  Yuma said something about not lynching one of them.

Apparently ADK tried to lynch me then that made him dead or something. Like a person running at a wall and bouncing off.

Go ahead and think I'm scum, but I doubt I'll get lynched today.
PPE 4!

[yuma]

Wait, why is Awaclus dismissed as likely scum?

Isn't Awaclus always scummy?
PPE

I'm never scummy.

Awaclus has been lynched!  He was a Double Espresso Cake (2-shot Strongman).

Awaclus has been lynched!  He was the Mafia goon

I can find more.

[Witherweaver]

And it's not good that ADK didn't point out what I just pointed out.

I've moved past my silverspawn vote and wasn't really paying attention to the fact that people were questioning that, but yeah my vote for silver wasn't a policy vote.

I'm piling up the votes a little bit so here's some analysis of my wagon: Axxle I'm thinking is town, he seems genuinely engaged and is asking me questions and responding to me. faust is a little bit scummier, he expressed suspicion of me earlier, then changed his focus, and now is back on me now that there's an actually wagon. gkrieg and silver are a lot scummier though, their votes are basically sheep votes.

I also find yuma fairly scummy as it looks like he's doing a soft defense of me by pushing a wagon on one of the people voting for me, could be he knows I'll flip town and is looking for town cred for being off-wagon.

This wording implies a decent chance that one of Silver or Gkrieg are scum.

[Awaclus]

PPE 4!

But your last own post before this one wasn't even 24 posts ago.

[Witherweaver]

Or was it RR?  Yuma said something about not lynching one of them.

I think both are in the second tier of scumminess after the gkrieg/ss/joseph trio. Awaclus more so. RR was the one that ADK responded to that got him in so much trouble in the first place... RR is even maybe third tier.

I remember like zero of this.  I am rereading.

[Joseph2302]

I've stated before that I think Gkrieg lynch is too easy, and I doubt scum are going to let us have 2 easy lynches in a game.

for an easy lynch it sure has caused me to work up a sweat to push it through...

It got to L-1 and I could have hammered it if I wanted, seems really easy lynch to me.

PPE: 1?

[Roadrunner7671]

Or was it RR?  Yuma said something about not lynching one of them.

I think both are in the second tier of scumminess after the gkrieg/ss/joseph trio. Awaclus more so. RR was the one that ADK responded to that got him in so much trouble in the first place... RR is even maybe third tier.

How many tiers are there?

[gkrieg13]

And it's not good that ADK didn't point out what I just pointed out.

I've moved past my silverspawn vote and wasn't really paying attention to the fact that people were questioning that, but yeah my vote for silver wasn't a policy vote.

I'm piling up the votes a little bit so here's some analysis of my wagon: Axxle I'm thinking is town, he seems genuinely engaged and is asking me questions and responding to me. faust is a little bit scummier, he expressed suspicion of me earlier, then changed his focus, and now is back on me now that there's an actually wagon. gkrieg and silver are a lot scummier though, their votes are basically sheep votes.

I also find yuma fairly scummy as it looks like he's doing a soft defense of me by pushing a wagon on one of the people voting for me, could be he knows I'll flip town and is looking for town cred for being off-wagon.

This wording implies a decent chance that one of Silver or Gkrieg are scum.

I'm not sure I agree.  I don't think it really implies anything about us.  I'm not sure I've played with scum!ADK before though

[Axxle]

Wait, why is Awaclus dismissed as likely scum?

Isn't Awaclus always scummy?
PPE

I'm never scummy.

Awaclus has been lynched!  He was a Double Espresso Cake (2-shot Strongman).

Awaclus has been lynched!  He was the Mafia goon

I can find more.

Scummy != scum

But yeah, I wouldn't say no to an Awalcus lynch today.

[Hydrad]

Vote: awaclus

well lets get it started then. choo chooo

[yuma]

Scummy != scum

But yeah, I wouldn't say no to an Awalcus lynch today.

What I meant is that he was found scummy when he was scum and then lynched for it. But I get what you mean.

And I still don't think we should do an awaclus lynch today. Joseph/gkrieg and ss are so much better.

[Roadrunner7671]

Vote: awaclus

well lets get it started then. choo chooo

This post seems scummy. Trying to get town to spread out their votes is scummy, right?

But an Awaclus lynch wouldn't be the worst thing ever. There seem to be better options though.

[silverspawn]

Awaclus is better than gkrieg. vote: Awaclus

[yuma]

ugh

[yuma]

if we want a counter wagon:

vote: ss

is the way to go

[silverspawn]

if we want a counter wagon:

vote: ss

is the way to go

given that tomorrow none of you will vote for me, the fact that I didn't hammer gkrieg makes me confirmed town for today. please.

[Joseph2302]

Key question regarding Gkrieg: if he's scum, then why did ADK self-hammer, rather than let Gkrieg hammer? If Gkrieg hammered, that would have given him town points surely?

[Hydrad]

Vote: awaclus

well lets get it started then. choo chooo

This post seems scummy. Trying to get town to spread out their votes is scummy, right?

But an Awaclus lynch wouldn't be the worst thing ever. There seem to be better options though.

well I don't like gkrieg or Joeseph. if this doesn't work I'll move back to get a lynch through.

[Roadrunner7671]

Key question regarding Gkrieg: if he's scum, then why did ADK self-hammer, rather than let Gkrieg hammer? If Gkrieg hammered, that would have given him town points surely?

Hammerers don't seem to get town points.
PPE

[Hydrad]

if we want a counter wagon:

vote: ss

is the way to go

given that tomorrow none of you will vote for me, the fact that I didn't hammer gkrieg makes me confirmed town for today. please.

so tomorrow we will know why your untouchable?

[yuma]

if we want a counter wagon:

vote: ss

is the way to go

given that tomorrow none of you will vote for me, the fact that I didn't hammer gkrieg makes me confirmed town for today. please.

I have no idea what any of this means.

[Roadrunner7671]

if we want a counter wagon:

vote: ss

is the way to go

Why exactly SS?

[silverspawn]

actually though, no, the idea is that gkrieg and Joseph might both be scum, and now we're changing to someone else? Let's lynch  Joseph.

vote: Joseph

[yuma]

Key question regarding Gkrieg: if he's scum, then why did ADK self-hammer, rather than let Gkrieg hammer? If Gkrieg hammered, that would have given him town points surely?

OH MY GOD.

I have answered this like 5 times. Literally. Not figuratively. 5 times.

[yuma]

if we want a counter wagon:

vote: ss

is the way to go

Why exactly SS?

Go read what I have said before.

[chairs]

vote: joseph

[silverspawn]

if we want a counter wagon:

vote: ss

is the way to go

given that tomorrow none of you will vote for me, the fact that I didn't hammer gkrieg makes me confirmed town for today. please.

I have no idea what any of this means.

scum doesn't either. I hope.

[Axxle]

Key question regarding Gkrieg: if he's scum, then why did ADK self-hammer, rather than let Gkrieg hammer? If Gkrieg hammered, that would have given him town points surely?

OH MY GOD.

I have answered this like 5 times. Literally. Not figuratively. 5 times.

But why male models?

[gkrieg13]

vote: joseph

Why change now?

[silverspawn]

Unofficial Vote Count:

Awaclus (1): Hydrad
silverspawn (2): Joseph2302, yuma
gkrieg13 (2): Witherweaver, Awaclus
Joseph2302 (4): gkrieg13, Axxle, silverspawn, chairs

Not Voting (1): Roadrunner7671

meh, still only L-2

need 2 more people!

[gkrieg13]

We also need RR to vote

[Roadrunner7671]

We also need RR to vote

Peer pressure!

[gkrieg13]

sigh...

[Roadrunner7671]

sigh...

Fine, fine. Vote: Joseph
But a good claim and I'm backing off.

We also need RR to vote

Peer pressure!

[silverspawn]

well yeah, we're not gonna lynch a claimed cop or something.

[Hydrad]

Vote: Gkrieg

[gkrieg13]

sigh...

Fine, fine. Vote: Joseph
But a good claim and I'm backing off.

We also need RR to vote

Peer pressure!

He already claimed VT

[gkrieg13]

Vote: Gkrieg

?

[Roadrunner7671]

Unvote
Explain in a bit

[yuma]

Vote: gkrieg

[yuma]

Unvote
Explain in a bit

???

[gkrieg13]

Vote: gkrieg

 

[Roadrunner7671]

Unvote
Explain in a bit

???

I guess it's been a bit. I find ADK's interactions with Gkreig to be something along the lines of 'I'm going down anyway, mine as well give my partner towncred.' Sure, Joseph isn't a terrible lynch, but Gkreig has a very good chance of being scum, and his flip will presumably give us more information. I can look for some of his posts to site, but I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. We can't disregard the Gkreig thing.

[gkrieg13]

Unvote
Explain in a bit

???

I guess it's been a bit. I find ADK's interactions with Gkreig to be something along the lines of 'I'm going down anyway, mine as well give my partner towncred.' Sure, Joseph isn't a terrible lynch, but Gkreig has a very good chance of being scum, and his flip will presumably give us more information. I can look for some of his posts to site, but I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. We can't disregard the Gkreig thing.

I think if you look at his interaction with me, he did absolutely nothing to attempt to give me town cred.

[Roadrunner7671]

Unvote
Explain in a bit

???

I guess it's been a bit. I find ADK's interactions with Gkreig to be something along the lines of 'I'm going down anyway, mine as well give my partner towncred.' Sure, Joseph isn't a terrible lynch, but Gkreig has a very good chance of being scum, and his flip will presumably give us more information. I can look for some of his posts to site, but I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. We can't disregard the Gkreig thing.

I think if you look at his interaction with me, he did absolutely nothing to attempt to give me town cred.

You stating your intent to hammer then him self hammering seems to be WIFOM. Scum partners would never pull that, but both you and ADK are quite crafty.

[yuma]

Unvote
Explain in a bit

???

I guess it's been a bit. I find ADK's interactions with Gkreig to be something along the lines of 'I'm going down anyway, mine as well give my partner towncred.' Sure, Joseph isn't a terrible lynch, but Gkreig has a very good chance of being scum, and his flip will presumably give us more information. I can look for some of his posts to site, but I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. We can't disregard the Gkreig thing.

I mean... I don't agree with this at all. But if it means you will vote for gkrieg, I guess I don't really care...

[gkrieg13]

You stating your intent to hammer then him self hammering seems to be WIFOM. Scum partners would never pull that, but both you and ADK are quite crafty.

I don't think that is something that could've been planned ahead at all.  No matter how crafty you are.  This makes no sense at all.  You say that scum partners would never pull that and that is your case that we're scum partners?

[Roadrunner7671]

You stating your intent to hammer then him self hammering seems to be WIFOM. Scum partners would never pull that, but both you and ADK are quite crafty.

I don't think that is something that could've been planned ahead at all.  No matter how crafty you are.  This makes no sense at all.  You say that scum partners would never pull that and that is your case that we're scum partners?

I'm saying scum partners would never pull that, and that's why you guys pulled that. No one would see it coming, right? This doesn't make sense, eh?

But I'm not going to taint your wagon. Knowing that some random guy joined it because of his conspiracy theory is not going to attract votes.

But I will give you this: Intent to hammer Gkreig13!

[Axxle]

Can't hammer if he's at l-2

[gkrieg13]

You stating your intent to hammer then him self hammering seems to be WIFOM. Scum partners would never pull that, but both you and ADK are quite crafty.

I don't think that is something that could've been planned ahead at all.  No matter how crafty you are.  This makes no sense at all.  You say that scum partners would never pull that and that is your case that we're scum partners?

I'm saying scum partners would never pull that, and that's why you guys pulled that. No one would see it coming, right? This doesn't make sense, eh?

But I'm not going to taint your wagon. Knowing that some random guy joined it because of his conspiracy theory is not going to attract votes.

But I will give you this: Intent to hammer Gkreig13!

I don't think I'm at L-1 yet.  But I'm town, so you really should rethink your vote.

[Roadrunner7671]

Can't hammer if he's at l-2

But I can intend to! 

[yuma]

Vote: rr

[gkrieg13]

Vote: rr

I could definitely go for this.  But I think he is just being careless, instead of doing it intentionally.

[2.71828.....]

After a thoroughly invigorating nap, accusations started flowing again.

Vote Count 2.7
Gkrieg13 (3): Witherweaver, Awaclus, Hydrad
Joseph2302 (4): gkrieg13, Axxle, silverspawn, Chairs (L-2)
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302
Roadrunner7671 (1): yuma

Not Voting (1): Roadrunner7671

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 2 will be Sunday, March 13 at 11PM forum time.

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't get it, is my theory just unreasonable and I just can't tell?

[yuma]

I don't get it, is my theory just unreasonable and I just can't tell?

its that you aren't voting...

[Axxle]

How often do scum have day talk? If it's often enough I can believe adk/gkrieg pulled off that song and dance

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't get it, is my theory just unreasonable and I just can't tell?

its that you aren't voting...

Is this a joke?
(Probably not)
Vote: Gkreig
PPE
I want to be right, and I think I will be. Being right is fun.

[yuma]

vote: gkrieg

[Roadrunner7671]

Intent to hammer

[yuma]

I am almost positive scum do not have day talk here, I can't remember the last completed game that had day talk... it has been a while

[Roadrunner7671]

I am almost positive scum do not have day talk here, I can't remember the last completed game that had day talk... it has been a while

I skimmed the setup...is it possible in asher9++?

[yuma]

I am almost positive scum do not have day talk here, I can't remember the last completed game that had day talk... it has been a while

I skimmed the setup...is it possible in asher9++?

day talk by default generally requires the mod to specifically state that it is available. it is not stated in the setup and no previous iteration of asher9++ has had it that I am aware of...

and what exactly are you intending to hammer?

[silverspawn]

I think this is a mistake.

[Axxle]

Intent to hammer

You're hilarious.

[Roadrunner7671]

I am almost positive scum do not have day talk here, I can't remember the last completed game that had day talk... it has been a while

I skimmed the setup...is it possible in asher9++?

day talk by default generally requires the mod to specifically state that it is available. it is not stated in the setup and no previous iteration of asher9++ has had it that I am aware of...

and what exactly are you intending to hammer?

I have intent to hammer Gkreig13.
PPE

[Roadrunner7671]

Intent to hammer

You're hilarious.

I appreciate the...sarcasm?

[yuma]

Why are you so obsessed with collecting hammers? That isn't something to be going around collecting. I don't know why people think it is a thing. It shouldn't even be something that is tracked as a stat. Why not track first on a wagon? They mean the same thing... Nothing!

[Roadrunner7671]

Why are you so obsessed with collecting hammers? That isn't something to be going around collecting. I don't know why people think it is a thing. It shouldn't even be something that is tracked as a stat. Why not track first on a wagon? They mean the same thing... Nothing!

It was a joke. Seeing as I'm already on the wagon, I can't hammer.

[yuma]

Why are you so obsessed with collecting hammers? That isn't something to be going around collecting. I don't know why people think it is a thing. It shouldn't even be something that is tracked as a stat. Why not track first on a wagon? They mean the same thing... Nothing!

It was a joke. Seeing as I'm already on the wagon, I can't hammer.

The problem with your jokes is...

[Roadrunner7671]

Why are you so obsessed with collecting hammers? That isn't something to be going around collecting. I don't know why people think it is a thing. It shouldn't even be something that is tracked as a stat. Why not track first on a wagon? They mean the same thing... Nothing!

It was a joke. Seeing as I'm already on the wagon, I can't hammer.

The problem with your jokes is...

They're terrible? I know.

[gkrieg13]

Guys I'm not scum. Can we please lynch someone else today?  We can get the same amount of wagon analysis by lynching Joseph and we have a chance at hitting scum. I have contributed more to this game than he has, I've been townier today, and I'M TOWN! 

But seriously?  I get why I am a lynch candidate today, but I don't understand why I'm actually going to be lynches over him

[Roadrunner7671]

Guys I'm not scum. Can we please lynch someone else today?  We can get the same amount of wagon analysis by lynching Joseph and we have a chance at hitting scum. I have contributed more to this game than he has, I've been townier today, and I'M TOWN! 

But seriously?  I get why I am a lynch candidate today, but I don't understand why I'm actually going to be lynches over him

It's because we think you're smart enough to pull this off.

[gkrieg13]

Guys I'm not scum. Can we please lynch someone else today?  We can get the same amount of wagon analysis by lynching Joseph and we have a chance at hitting scum. I have contributed more to this game than he has, I've been townier today, and I'M TOWN! 

But seriously?  I get why I am a lynch candidate today, but I don't understand why I'm actually going to be lynches over him

It's because we think you're smart enough to pull this off.

I don't even know what that means. It clearly wasn't a planned thing. It would be an awful plan anyway.

[Roadrunner7671]

Guys I'm not scum. Can we please lynch someone else today?  We can get the same amount of wagon analysis by lynching Joseph and we have a chance at hitting scum. I have contributed more to this game than he has, I've been townier today, and I'M TOWN! 

But seriously?  I get why I am a lynch candidate today, but I don't understand why I'm actually going to be lynches over him

It's because we think you're smart enough to pull this off.

I don't even know what that means. It clearly wasn't a planned thing. It would be an awful plan anyway.

I think if that could be pulled off, it would be amazing. But at L-1, I could see why you'd disagree.

Just in case you die, you're town, and Twilight gets cut short (2 of those are unlikely), do you want to post reads?

[gkrieg13]

I'm not a computer right now to look over everything.

I will say I'm a VT

[Roadrunner7671]

Does anyone else think it's likely that scum would claim 1-shot Cop?

[Awaclus]

I'm not a computer right now

Are you usually a computer?

[Awaclus]

Does anyone else think it's likely that scum would claim 1-shot Cop?

Not really. Why?

[gkrieg13]

I wish I were a PR though.

[Roadrunner7671]

Does anyone else think it's likely that scum would claim 1-shot Cop?

Not really. Why?

Cause it seems like there's a possibility for two of them, so it would be a safe PR claim. Am I missing something?
Ppe

[Witherweaver]

How often do scum have day talk? If it's often enough I can believe adk/gkrieg pulled off that song and dance

It only needed to be ADK deciding it was a good idea.  Gkrieg could have been just acting normally, thinking it was his best play to hammer (or at least state intending to hammer) ADK.  Scum!Gkrieg could have expected ADK to claim something and not have to vote.  I did this exact same thing to Scott Pilgrim in the one Mafia setup where we all got cards to pick the roll, and we were Werewolves.  I think you were in that game.

[Awaclus]

Cause it seems like there's a possibility for two of them, so it would be a safe PR claim. Am I missing something?

What are you expecting to get out of such a claim though? Your claim is safe so you can't out a town PR that way, and it won't give you any town cred, and you probably shouldn't claim to have the shot left at this point so there's really no benefit to it.

[iguanaiguana]

"I swear I saw him winking at ruined village yesterday!"

Vote Count 2.8
Gkrieg13 (5): Witherweaver, Awaclus, Hydrad, Roadrunner7671, Yuma [L-1]
Joseph2302 (4): gkrieg13, Axxle, silverspawn, Chairs (L-2)
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (0):

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 2 will be Sunday, March 13 at 11PM forum time.

[gkrieg13]

I will post reads and a wagon analysis of today tomorrow morning if I'm alive. Someone please unvote so I don't get hammered during the night here

[Roadrunner7671]

Unvote
You can have a chance I guess.

[gkrieg13]

Unvote
You can have a chance I guess.

Thanks. Now I can actually sleep tonight

[Joseph2302]

Vote: rr

I could definitely go for this.  But I think he is just being careless, instead of doing it intentionally.

The problem with RR is that he's hard to read, because lots of his stuff is jokey.

He does keep the game active though , which I guess is pro-town.

[Joseph2302]

Also, the 2 main lynch wagons are now both claimed VTs.
Maybe time to look elsewhere?

[Joseph2302]

I think scum!Gkrieg would claim a PR here, because it would give him a free pass today.

[Axxle]

Also, the 2 main lynch wagons are now both claimed VTs.
Maybe time to look elsewhere?

Nah, let's not out our prs

[Joseph2302]

Also, the 2 main lynch wagons are now both claimed VTs.
Maybe time to look elsewhere?

Nah, let's not out our prs

I guess, hitting PR is pretty bad, and hitting VT is much less bad.
But hitting scum basically wins us the game.

[Roadrunner7671]

Also, the 2 main lynch wagons are now both claimed VTs.
Maybe time to look elsewhere?

Look elsewhere and force more clsims? No, thanks!

[yuma]

The thing with claims is that I have no idea what mafia would do in this situation. Claiming a PR sounds nice, but that just means you will get likely get lynched on a later day. VT is playing more of the long game, but might just get lynched immediately because of it.

So that is to say, the claims from both players doesn't really influence me one way or the other. It is good info to have certainly, but doesn't change my reads on them

[yuma]

One thing we do know with ADK's flip is that we must in one of these setups:

TTTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TT = Strongman; Roleblocker
T = Strongman; Roleblocker
0 Ts = Strongman; Roleblocker; 1-Shot Bulletproof****

So the most amount we could have is TTTT thus XX for PRs. With XX we could just have one role (EE or CC or VV) + Universal Backup. Taking into account the other 2 mafia players + faust (VT), we have 10 players alive and at most 6 VTs.

Joseph and gkrieg have already claimed VT. It would take more than 4 more VT claims to indicate that someone from that VT claiming pool is lying. So basically I just showed that getting a lot of claims isn't really going to help us (duh! everyone already knew that I just went through the effort to show it to myself definitively).

But it did remind me of an interesting point. If mafia know we are in TTTT or TTT they may be less likely to claim a PR knowing that there are going to be less PR slots available by default and don't want to get stuck in that sort of a trap.

What I will say is that I think it is somewhat unlikely that both gkrieg and joseph are mafia as I think one of them would have claimed a PR if they were partners...

[yuma]

well maybe chairs will hammer when he gets back...

[yuma]

oh... nevermind... rr unvoted. I shouldn't be surprised.

[silverspawn]

Here is a good reason why we should lynch gkrieg: if he flips town, then that's town cred to everyone on the Jopeph wagon, since they all had the opportunity to hammer gkrieg without looking suspicious multiple times.

However, that does not include the person who ended up switching to hammer him.

Mh, huh... hm...

[chairs]

the irony.

I'm liking the joseph lynch more than the gkrieg lynch right now anyway.

[yuma]

the irony.

I'm liking the joseph lynch more than the gkrieg lynch right now anyway.

If joseph were scum here he would have hammered gkrieg by now (unless they are partners, but I don't think that is likely as both claimed VT)

I don't think going to joseph is the way to go here.

[silverspawn]

the irony.

I'm liking the joseph lynch more than the gkrieg lynch right now anyway.

If joseph were scum here he would have hammered gkrieg by now (unless they are partners, but I don't think that is likely as both claimed VT)

I don't think going to joseph is the way to go here.

ow. Good point.

[silverspawn]

Unless they are both scum.

[yuma]

the irony.

I'm liking the joseph lynch more than the gkrieg lynch right now anyway.

If joseph were scum here he would have hammered gkrieg by now (unless they are partners, but I don't think that is likely as both claimed VT)

I don't think going to joseph is the way to go here.

You think both partners claim VT here?

[Joseph2302]

the irony.

I'm liking the joseph lynch more than the gkrieg lynch right now anyway.

If joseph were scum here he would have hammered gkrieg by now (unless they are partners, but I don't think that is likely as both claimed VT)

I don't think going to joseph is the way to go here.

Exactly what I've been trying to point out.
I've had lots of opportunity to hammer Gkrieg,  and haven't.

Note: the below is taken from everyone else's perspective, and so does not assume I'm town, as only I know this :

So the only case I'm scum is if Gkrieg is scum, in which case lynching him works too.
Ergo, Gkrieg is a better lynch target than me, as he could be scum even if I'm town.

PPE:1

[Joseph2302]

Although if we did lynch Gkrieg and he was scum (both are assumptions),  that would also tell us we have lots of VTs.

Although if we hit scum, we probably win anyway.

[silverspawn]

the irony.

I'm liking the joseph lynch more than the gkrieg lynch right now anyway.

If joseph were scum here he would have hammered gkrieg by now (unless they are partners, but I don't think that is likely as both claimed VT)

I don't think going to joseph is the way to go here.

You think both partners claim VT here?

That wouldn't surprise me.

[yuma]

the irony.

I'm liking the joseph lynch more than the gkrieg lynch right now anyway.

If joseph were scum here he would have hammered gkrieg by now (unless they are partners, but I don't think that is likely as both claimed VT)

I don't think going to joseph is the way to go here.

You think both partners claim VT here?

That wouldn't surprise me.

Well I guess it would me. And if they are partners then like Joseph said, gkrieg is the better option. We can explore if Joseph is scum tomorrow if gkrieg flips mafia. Otherwise you are putting the cart before the horse--which just isn't something you can say any more, cause really, who rides carts and horses anymore?

[silverspawn]

yeah-- I have to agree with that, the evidence of not hammering is more important than my perception of their play under pressure. gkrieg > Joseph lynch.

[silverspawn]

although it's far away from making Joseph an IC. Scum could decide not to hammer to buy towncred.

[yuma]

although it's far away from making Joseph an IC. Scum could decide not to hammer to buy towncred.

I agree with this and his stubbornly staying on you in isolation hasn't been exactly townie... But the risk of getting lynched instead of gkrieg earlier (not so much now that people are actually giving the towncred) is high. And if you are lynched then potential town credit isn't going to do any good.

[chairs]

I'm convinced.

vote: gkrieg

[gkrieg13]

I'll give reads and stuff in an hour

[Joseph2302]

Still not convinced with voting Gkrieg.
Think he's getting lynched either way, but nothing has made me that much more convinced he's scum.

The arguments have shown he's a better lynch than me (which I knew already), but not that he's definitely scum.

[Witherweaver]

Still not convinced with voting Gkrieg.
Think he's getting lynched either way, but nothing has made me that much more convinced he's scum.

The arguments have shown he's a better lynch than me (which I knew already), but not that he's definitely scum.

Someone has to be scum.  Probably two someones. 

[silverspawn]

[silverspawn]

vote: gkrieg

[silverspawn]

Now, if you could do us all the honor of flipping scum, that'd be great.

[Witherweaver]

Actually, I reread, and I'd be okay lynching Silver.

PPE: Is that the hammer?

[Witherweaver]

Apparently.

I think now I'd be definitely okay lynching Silver, probably in either flip case.

[gkrieg13]

I'm incredibly pissed

[silverspawn]

I'm incredibly pissed

I don't doubt it, but are you incredibly pissed scum or incredibly pissed town?

[gkrieg13]

I'm incredibly pissed

I don't doubt it, but are you incredibly pissed scum or incredibly pissed town?

It should be painfully obvious that I'm not scum to anyone that reread the thread

[yuma]

I'm incredibly pissed

I don't doubt it, but are you incredibly pissed scum or incredibly pissed town?

It should be painfully obvious that I'm not scum to anyone that reread the thread

That is a ridiculous statement.

[Joseph2302]

I'm incredibly pissed

I don't doubt it, but are you incredibly pissed scum or incredibly pissed town?

Okay, anyone for ss tomorrow?

Gkrieg said he was going to post reads in half an hour, surely it was worth waiting for that?

Gkrieg, any last thoughts?

PPE: 1

[Witherweaver]

Lynch SS tomorrow.

[gkrieg13]

I'm incredibly pissed

I don't doubt it, but are you incredibly pissed scum or incredibly pissed town?

Okay, anyone for ss tomorrow?

Gkrieg said he was going to post reads in half an hour, surely it was worth waiting for that?

Gkrieg, any last thoughts?

PPE: 1

I'd have to calm down first

[Joseph2302]

Lynch SS tomorrow.

If people had listened to me, we could have lynched him today.
Just saying....

PPE:1

[Witherweaver]

Lynch SS tomorrow.

If people had listened to me, we could have lynched him today.
Just saying....

PPE:1

Well, I haven't had so much time.  I should have unvoted; didn't really think a hammer would happen. 

[yuma]

I'm incredibly pissed

I don't doubt it, but are you incredibly pissed scum or incredibly pissed town?

Okay, anyone for ss tomorrow?

Gkrieg said he was going to post reads in half an hour, surely it was worth waiting for that?

Gkrieg, any last thoughts?

PPE: 1

I'd have to calm down first

I guess I am confused by the complete and total rage here.

Reads are nice, but you were able to claim, this didn't come as a surprise... what has stopped you from giving reads for the last 3 days? Why wait until you are on your deathbed to give them?

[Joseph2302]

Lynch SS tomorrow.

If people had listened to me, we could have lynched him today.
Just saying....

PPE:1

Well, I haven't had so much time.  I should have unvoted; didn't really think a hammer would happen.

Eh, I didn't expect a hammer either.
IMO, only scum would hammer there (unless Gkrieg flips scum, which seems unlikely).

PPE:1

[Witherweaver]

I'm going to go with SS/Awaclus or SS/Roadrunner.  Though then both partners would be off wagon.  Not sure who on wagon could be scum.. Chairs or Axxle I guess. 

[yuma]

the longer we go without gkrieg giving reads the more confident I am that this lynch will be on scum.

[Witherweaver]

Lynch SS tomorrow.

If people had listened to me, we could have lynched him today.
Just saying....

PPE:1

Well, I haven't had so much time.  I should have unvoted; didn't really think a hammer would happen.

Eh, I didn't expect a hammer either.
IMO, only scum would hammer there (unless Gkrieg flips scum, which seems unlikely).

PPE:1

I don't think it's unlikely that scum!SS would hammer scum!Gkrieg there.

[Hydrad]

i think hes town now

[silverspawn]

Lynch SS tomorrow.

If people had listened to me, we could have lynched him today.
Just saying....

PPE:1

Well, I haven't had so much time.  I should have unvoted; didn't really think a hammer would happen.

Eh, I didn't expect a hammer either.
IMO, only scum would hammer there (unless Gkrieg flips scum, which seems unlikely).

PPE:1

I don't think it's unlikely that scum!SS would hammer scum!Gkrieg there.

:c well I don't think that matters at all

[silverspawn]

Lynch SS tomorrow.

If people had listened to me, we could have lynched him today.
Just saying....

PPE:1

ha!

[silverspawn]

i think hes town now

anytime scum pretends after the lynch we think he's probably town. although I do think this behavior makes actually likely.

[silverspawn]

I don't think it's that bad either way; information wise the lynch is great, and 1/1 scum/town lynches after day 2 isn't bad at all.

[2.71828.....]

Final Vote Count
Gkrieg13 (6): Witherweaver, Awaclus, Hydrad, Yuma, Chairs, silverspawn
Joseph2302 (2): gkrieg13, Axxle
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (1): Roadrunner7671

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Gkrieg13 has been lynched!  He was Tournament, the Vanilla Townie!

Thread locked!

Night actions are due in 36 hours, D3 will begin sometime Friday morning for me when I have time.  It might be delayed a bit because work happens.

[2.71828.....]

Day 3 Start

"It is a dark time for the party.  Although Ruined Village had been destroyed, Anti-Scout forces have driven the party-goers from their comfort zones and pushed them to destroy one of their own.  Evading the dreaded Anti-Scout minions, a group of loyalists, still being led by Scout tried to establish a good lynch out of the remaining members of the group.  The evil Anti-Scout minions, obsessed with destroying Scout's combos, have dispatched their most fearless tactics to destroy anyone that they could....

Ok, fine.  The Empire Strikes Back intro doesn't quite fit, but you get our point!  We won't stop until Scout has been destroyed!  Two of you have even been eliminated tonight!  There is no stopping us!"

Apothecary finished reading the note attached to the ripped up cards of Explorer (Hydrad) and Crossroads (Joseph2302), shaking his head with grief.

And to think about what happened yesterday. 

*(flashback scene to yesterday)*

Tournament struggled all day to clear himself, and for a while it looked like another card might be chosen instead of him. But just as he felt like the prize was finally coming into sight, a shadowy figure in a corner of the room revealed a province. Tournament's spirits dropped; the cards who kidnapped scout had framed him too well to escape.

"Plus one action," he whispered to himself. "That's all I can do this time. I'm a useless dead card."

"What?!" shouted the others, "Plus one action? That's exactly what ruined village said before we caught him! It's clear that you conspired against us with him. Plus, you don't even belong here.  You aren't a real combo with Scout, and we're getting rid of you for good!"

Hydrad has been killed in the night.  He was Explorer, a Town Roleblocker!
Joseph2302 has been killed in the night.  He was Crossroads, a Vanilla Townie!

Thread Unlocked

Vote Count 3.0

Not Voting (7): yuma, Roadrunner7671, Axxle, silverspawn, Awaclus, chairs, Witherweaver

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day 3 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 3 will be Monday, March 21 at 11:45 AM forum time.

[Roadrunner7671]

Hi everyone.
Is this LyLo?

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Silverspawn

So, vig?

[yuma]

(7): yuma, Roadrunner7671, Axxle, silverspawn, Awaclus, chairs, Witherweaver - 2 mafia

Mislynch 6 alive, 2 mafia
Mafia Night kill 5 alive, 2 mafia (this would be mylo)

so no, not mylo

[Roadrunner7671]

No, this isn't LyLo. But it's still bad.

I'm not voting until more people come online.
PPE

[yuma]

No, this isn't LyLo. But it's still bad.

I'm not voting until more people come online.
PPE

how about just some old fashioned opinions then... you can state them without a vote you know...

I am kinda floored that neither gkrieg or joseph were mafia... silverspawn or awaclus would be my suggestion. probably awaclus at this point...

vote: awaclus

[Roadrunner7671]

Who is towny to me?

Yuma, Axxel, SS, chairs, awaclus, axxel, RR

I'm not sure. Let me do some wagon analysis.

[silverspawn]

rip... uh

[silverspawn]

so, claim. I am a Mason.

My play was purposefully scummy to not draw a NK, and potentially gain information if people jump on my wagon. sufficient to say, it worked.

I talked about this with my partner, and we want to delay his claim-- if I don't die tonight, then he can claim tomorrow.

[silverspawn]

If no-one has objections, then I'll play this like an IC from now on, i.e. won't provide reads n stuff.

[yuma]

so, claim. I am a Mason.

My play was purposefully scummy to not draw a NK, and potentially gain information if people jump on my wagon. sufficient to say, it worked.

I talked about this with my partner, and we want to delay his claim-- if I don't die tonight, then he can claim tomorrow.

Well I kinda saw this coming. Man. I am really surprised you weren't night killed... I thought you were scum playing super risk or PR being a bit too obvious...

[Witherweaver]

so, claim. I am a Mason.

My play was purposefully scummy to not draw a NK, and potentially gain information if people jump on my wagon. sufficient to say, it worked.

I talked about this with my partner, and we want to delay his claim-- if I don't die tonight, then he can claim tomorrow.

It worked... how?

Why is not drawing a NK good?

[silverspawn]

so, claim. I am a Mason.

My play was purposefully scummy to not draw a NK, and potentially gain information if people jump on my wagon. sufficient to say, it worked.

I talked about this with my partner, and we want to delay his claim-- if I don't die tonight, then he can claim tomorrow.

It worked... how?

Why is not drawing a NK good?

because, as an IC, my life is worth more than that of others.

[Witherweaver]

And one of you getting NK'd would actually create an IC.  Instead of making us lynch you.

[silverspawn]

And one of you getting NK'd would actually create one IC.

Indeed. And this way, we have two.

[yuma]

I had a big post about theory and a wonderful plan until I realized I had looked at everything incorrectly... bummer

[yuma]

Also I have to say Axxle not getting NKed is highly suspicious.

[silverspawn]

Alright.

I want the vig to claim. That creates either an IC or a 1 - 1 standoff, both is good. With me having claimed, I don't think he's a big target - plus, it's probably a 1-shot vig, anyway, so effectively a named towny.

Objections?

[yuma]

Also... I think your partner should claim. Mafia is going to do the same work that I just did so I don't feel bad about stating this. Every other player has either voted for you or been voted by you except for Axxle...

So either he is your partner or you two voted for each other, which I think is really bad form for Masons. So if Axxle isn't your partner I think I am highly suspicious of you.

[yuma]

Alright.

I want the vig to claim. That creates either an IC or a 1 - 1 standoff, both is good. With me having claimed, I don't think he's a big target - plus, it's probably a 1-shot vig, anyway, so effectively a named towny.

Objections?

I don't like it. Because I think mafia kills him over you tomorrow if we mislynch today creating a scenario where we have to decide between claimed masons like we did in the game you ran.

If the Vig doesn't claim I think mafia is more likely to shoot you if you are a mason tonight than risk hitting a VT while trying to hit the vig.

[silverspawn]

Also... I think your partner should claim. Mafia is going to do the same work that I just did so I don't feel bad about stating this. Every other player has either voted for you or been voted by you except for Axxle...

So either he is your partner or you two voted for each other, which I think is really bad form for Masons. So if Axxle isn't your partner I think I am highly suspicious of you.

You don't seem to be giving us a lot of credit.

[Witherweaver]

I would like the other claim to come out.

[yuma]

Also... I think your partner should claim. Mafia is going to do the same work that I just did so I don't feel bad about stating this. Every other player has either voted for you or been voted by you except for Axxle...

So either he is your partner or you two voted for each other, which I think is really bad form for Masons. So if Axxle isn't your partner I think I am highly suspicious of you.

You don't seem to be giving us a lot of credit.

Well... I guess I just don't think it is a good idea for masons to vote for each other. Every time I have been a mason I have not done that. Because it creates situations like this where I am doubtful of anyone being a mason with you except for Axxle.

So yeah... if you aren't masons with Axxle I am not giving you a lot of credit because your previous play does not support your being a mason with anyone else.

[silverspawn]

Also... I think your partner should claim.

Two cases

#1 Scum kills me tonight
We have an IC tomorrow either way
#2 Scum doesn't kill me tonight
We have 2 ICs tomorrow and 1 the day after that

So no.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Silverspawn

[yuma]

Also... I think your partner should claim.

Two cases

#1 Scum kills me tonight
We have an IC tomorrow either way
#2 Scum doesn't kill me tonight
We have 2 ICs tomorrow and 1 the day after that

So no.

You won't be an IC tomorrow if we mislynch today. We will be at lylo like we were in Fanfiction trying to decide whether to lynch claimed masons or not...

[Witherweaver]

Did you expect us to forget about the previous game?  Or expect us to assume you wouldn't try it because of it?

[silverspawn]

Also... I think your partner should claim. Mafia is going to do the same work that I just did so I don't feel bad about stating this. Every other player has either voted for you or been voted by you except for Axxle...

So either he is your partner or you two voted for each other, which I think is really bad form for Masons. So if Axxle isn't your partner I think I am highly suspicious of you.

You don't seem to be giving us a lot of credit.

Well... I guess I just don't think it is a good idea for masons to vote for each other. Every time I have been a mason I have not done that. Because it creates situations like this where I am doubtful of anyone being a mason with you except for Axxle.

So yeah... if you aren't masons with Axxle I am not giving you a lot of credit because your previous play does not support your being a mason with anyone else.

Erm... obviously my partner and me tried to not make it obvious who the other one is once the first one claimed, and we have no problems voting for each other. The only way it's Axxle is if we went for a double-cross strategy and deliberately didn't vote because we expect scum to expect that we did in fact vote. Did we do that? Maybe? You are fishing for information here. I'm not telling you who my partner is.

[yuma]

vote: silverspawn

I would rather lose completely than lose to fake claiming masons again.

Also why are you so scared that mafia might think you were masons?

[yuma]

the point of masons isn't to try and fly under the radar of mafia. It is to win the trust of town.

And you are failing miserably at that.

[silverspawn]

Did you expect us to forget about the previous game?  Or expect us to assume you wouldn't try it because of it?

I don't think that game changes the probability of fakeclaiming masons much, if anything it probably makes it less likely.

It is not my fault that you were so blind that game. Ash claimed masons day 1 and they were never killed, and you never managed to lynch a single scum. Hello. I don't know why you didn't realize something was up.

Here, I kept our identity hidden and we already got a scum day 1.

[Witherweaver]

Did you expect us to forget about the previous game?  Or expect us to assume you wouldn't try it because of it?

I don't think that game changes the probability of fakeclaiming masons much, if anything it probably makes it less likely.

It is not my fault that you were so blind that game. Ash claimed masons day 1 and they were never killed, and you never managed to lynch a single scum. Hello. I don't know why you didn't realize something was up.

Here, I kept our identity hidden and we already got a scum day 1.

I got NK'd that game (or lynched?).  I was pretty highly suspecting Ash by the time I was out of the game.

[Witherweaver]

Also, talking like a dick is certainly not going to make people want to lynch you less.

[silverspawn]

I hereby politely ask you to not be anti town because you're grumpy over a loss in a game where you didn't want to believe that scum fakeclaimed masons despite having plenty of evidence.

There is no evidence here. Everything I did makes perfect sense. And scum fakeclaiming masons is highly unlikely--- and is not more likely because it just happened.

[yuma]

Also, talking like a dick is certainly not going to make people want to lynch you less.

This

[Witherweaver]

I hereby politely ask you to not be anti town because you're grumpy over a loss in a game where you didn't want to believe that scum fakeclaimed masons despite having plenty of evidence.

There is no evidence here. Everything I did makes perfect sense. And scum fakeclaiming masons is highly unlikely--- and is not more likely because it just happened.

Also, talking like a dick is certainly not going to make people want to lynch you less.

[Roadrunner7671]

I might want to lynch SS, but no intent to hammer yet.

But he's my strongest scum read for sure. Sorry, but we talked about Masonry. I think scum fake claims mason without outting his other scum partner.
PPE 3

[silverspawn]

the point of masons isn't to try and fly under the radar of mafia. It is to win the trust of town.

And you are failing miserably at that.

That's totally wrong. the point of masons is NOT to win the trust of town. You already have that. The point is to make the most out of your conf!town status.

[yuma]

I hereby politely ask you to not be anti town because you're grumpy over a loss in a game where you didn't want to believe that scum fakeclaimed masons despite having plenty of evidence.

There is no evidence here. Everything I did makes perfect sense. And scum fakeclaiming masons is highly unlikely--- and is not more likely because it just happened.

I am not grumpy over an old game. I am wary because I see only one person who I feel could be your parnter and you are refusing to collaborate that.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not grumpy about not winning that game, why are you trying to be an asshole?  I was out of it by the time it came to those decisions.

I'm grumpy about you scummily quickhammering Gkrieg and us not lynching you yesterday.

[yuma]

the point of masons isn't to try and fly under the radar of mafia. It is to win the trust of town.

And you are failing miserably at that.

That's totally wrong. the point of masons is NOT to win the trust of town. You already have that. The point is to make the most out of your conf!town status.

YOU AREN'T CONFIRMED TOWN.

You maybe become so at some point, if you are a mason. But, right here, right now. You aren't. So stop acting like you are.

[Witherweaver]

I might want to lynch SS, but no intent to hammer yet.

But he's my strongest scum read for sure. Sorry, but we talked about Masonry. I think scum fake claims mason without outting his other scum partner.
PPE 3

Are you claiming not his partner then?

[Roadrunner7671]

I might want to lynch SS, but no intent to hammer yet.

But he's my strongest scum read for sure. Sorry, but we talked about Masonry. I think scum fake claims mason without outting his other scum partner.
PPE 3

Are you claiming not his partner then?

I am not his mason partner, no.
I don't think he has one.

But if scum fake claims mason, scum would rather say 'I don't want to out my mason partner' instead of 'my mason partner is (insert mafia parnet here.)

[yuma]

I guess I see absolutely no reason as to why you want to keep your partner hidden?

What purpose does that serve?

[silverspawn]

I guess I see absolutely no reason as to why you want to keep your partner hidden?

What purpose does that serve?

a) if I don't die then scum needs one more day to kill him
b) it gives us way more information if he is close to being lynched

Fishing for my partner's name here is very scummy by the way.

[Witherweaver]

I might want to lynch SS, but no intent to hammer yet.

But he's my strongest scum read for sure. Sorry, but we talked about Masonry. I think scum fake claims mason without outting his other scum partner.
PPE 3

Are you claiming not his partner then?

I am not his mason partner, no.
I don't think he has one.

But if scum fake claims mason, scum would rather say 'I don't want to out my mason partner' instead of 'my mason partner is (insert mafia parnet here.)

Why'd you bring up Masons at all?

[yuma]

I guess I see absolutely no reason as to why you want to keep your partner hidden?

What purpose does that serve?

a) if I don't die then scum needs one more day to kill him
b) it gives us way more information if he is close to being lynched

Fishing for my partner's name here is very scummy by the way.

then vote for me.

If you don't die scum needs one more day to kill him anyways... I dont' see the point here? And truth be told, you might end up getting lynched tomorrow if you and your "partner" are still alive.

Info is nice to an extent... But if that is the case why did you claim immediately instead of waiting for a while to gain more information today? But really I would rather know than have this information.

[silverspawn]

Look. Before that game, you would have treated me as conf!town. You proved that, because you did it with ash, and it is the right play.

Then, because you lost that game, you are now treating me differently, even though that games does not make a fakeclaim here more likely.

This means that you are punishing me for you losing that game.

[Witherweaver]

Look. Before that game, you would have treated me as conf!town. You proved that, because you did it with ash, and it is the right play.

Then, because you lost that game, you are now treating me differently, even though that games does not make a fakeclaim here more likely.

This means that you are punishing me for you losing that game.

Thanks Awaclus.

[Witherweaver]

You know you'd be more convincing if you didn't prepare a strawman before coming into this.

[yuma]

Look. Before that game, you would have treated me as conf!town. You proved that, because you did it with ash, and it is the right play.

Then, because you lost that game, you are now treating me differently, even though that games does not make a fakeclaim here more likely.

This means that you are punishing me for you losing that game.

NO. That is an asinine assumption to make. I can't prove it, but I think I would be reacting the exact same way here. Because unless your partner is Axxle I see no reason to believe your claim. I would see it that way regardless of how the other game played out.

[silverspawn]

I guess I see absolutely no reason as to why you want to keep your partner hidden?

What purpose does that serve?

a) if I don't die then scum needs one more day to kill him
b) it gives us way more information if he is close to being lynched

Fishing for my partner's name here is very scummy by the way.

then vote for me.

I believe that you are in fact grumpy because of that loss, as I said earlier, and that that's the reason for your reaction. I would vote for WW, but I'd rather not vote at all and let others start-- as I said, I was intending to play as an IC. I shouldn't even have said that it's scummy.

Why I didn't wait even longer to claim? I considered it, but decided that that would be stretching things too far. Then you'd have actual reason to believe it's a fakeclaim.

[silverspawn]

Look. Before that game, you would have treated me as conf!town. You proved that, because you did it with ash, and it is the right play.

Then, because you lost that game, you are now treating me differently, even though that games does not make a fakeclaim here more likely.

This means that you are punishing me for you losing that game.

NO. That is an asinine assumption to make. I can't prove it, but I think I would be reacting the exact same way here. Because unless your partner is Axxle I see no reason to believe your claim. I would see it that way regardless of how the other game played out.

That makes no sense. We want to keep our identities hidden. We'll vote for each other.

[yuma]

Ok. Look here is the thing. WW isn't your partner. I am not your partner. RR has said he isn't your partner. So it is Awaclus, chairs or Axxle. I am hoping the non-partners quickly reveal what they are once they show up and then hopefully we can just force the issue cause I don't think we are going to get you to do anything.

So I'll wait and see what happens then...

unvote

[yuma]

Look. Before that game, you would have treated me as conf!town. You proved that, because you did it with ash, and it is the right play.

Then, because you lost that game, you are now treating me differently, even though that games does not make a fakeclaim here more likely.

This means that you are punishing me for you losing that game.

NO. That is an asinine assumption to make. I can't prove it, but I think I would be reacting the exact same way here. Because unless your partner is Axxle I see no reason to believe your claim. I would see it that way regardless of how the other game played out.

That makes no sense. We want to keep our identities hidden. We'll vote for each other.

Why do you want to keep your identities hidden? I don't think I have ever seen a game where masons voted for each other before they claimed.

[silverspawn]

You seem to have this idea that voting for your mason partner is somehow ... unmannered? That's err I don't know. I disagree.

Why do you want to keep your identities hidden? I don't think I have ever seen a game where masons voted for each other before they claimed.

Yeah, I remember a bunch of games where I thought masons played rather poorly, accidentally claiming day 1 and stuff. IC's help more for PoE later in the game. I think you have to claim at a point as late as possible while it is still profitable for scum to NK you.

[silverspawn]

You know what, fine. My partner is chairs.

I think we should lynch WW today. And I think the vig should claim. And I think RR is town.

[Roadrunner7671]

You know what, fine. My partner is chairs.

I think we should lynch WW today. And I think the vig should claim. And I think RR is town.

Can chairs confirm this?

[silverspawn]

You know what, fine. My partner is chairs.

I think we should lynch WW today. And I think the vig should claim. And I think RR is town.

Can chairs confirm this?

of course he can...

[yuma]

I think I am coming at this in a biased way... but not the way you think...

I played a really good game as Masons. In Mafia XVII. I was Masons with theorel. We didn't vote for each other, in fact we had giant fat town reads on each other.

We didn't claim until Day3 after getting a mafia lynch in. And you know what. Everyone believed us automatically because we didn't have any baggage from each other from before. It worked perfectly.

I am not saying that is the only way to play or that you played suboptimally. I am saying that from my perspective, I am being suspicious of your claim. I have a right to be because you aren't confirmed. Mason claims deserve to be questioned and analyzed and right now I don't have the info I need to do that... So I guess you played suboptimally to get "me" convinced, but that might be me having the wrong assumptions based off a high level of success I had doing the opposite.

PPE: you claimed. ok

[Roadrunner7671]

You know what, fine. My partner is chairs.

I think we should lynch WW today. And I think the vig should claim. And I think RR is town.

Can chairs confirm this?

of course he can...

I mean, I hate to be super suspicious and a conspirator, but maybe you just desperately chose a lurker hoping to get a quicklynch before he came online and confirmed you as not a mason.
ppe

[silverspawn]

I hope this means that you will treat us as ICs now, because it's strictly better to wait for tomorrow and then lynch one of us than lynching one of us today. If we hit scum today, which we probably will, then we're confirmed.

[yuma]

I am still not sure I like the vig to claim, unless at L-1.

Like I said, right now I am worried that if mafia knows who the vig is they will just night kill him and then we will be left at mylo trying to figure out if the masons are masons or mafia.

But if the vig remains a mystery I feel more confident that mafia will shoot a mason (if they actually are masons) than risk hitting a lowly VT.

[silverspawn]

You know what, fine. My partner is chairs.

I think we should lynch WW today. And I think the vig should claim. And I think RR is town.

Can chairs confirm this?

of course he can...

I mean, I hate to be super suspicious and a conspirator, but maybe you just desperately chose a lurker hoping to get a quicklynch before he came online and confirmed you as not a mason.
ppe

Nice narrative. Then why am I not voting for anyone?

[Roadrunner7671]

You know what, fine. My partner is chairs.

I think we should lynch WW today. And I think the vig should claim. And I think RR is town.

Can chairs confirm this?

of course he can...

I mean, I hate to be super suspicious and a conspirator, but maybe you just desperately chose a lurker hoping to get a quicklynch before he came online and confirmed you as not a mason.
ppe

Nice narrative. Then why am I not voting for anyone?

To hammer, of course!

[Witherweaver]

Purposefully playing scummy and then coming out with a claim that entirely relies on us believing its validity is absurd. 

[yuma]

I hope this means that you will treat us as ICs now, because it's strictly better to wait for tomorrow and then lynch one of us than lynching one of us today. If we hit scum today, which we probably will, then we're confirmed.

I am not treading you as an IC until you are an IC. But that doesn't necessarily mean I want to lynch you two today.

Yes, hitting scum today would be very, very nice, confirming you. And look as long as we don't derphammer we wont' lynch the vig. So if you are telling the truth we have a 2/4 chance.

And I still think awaclus is better that WW. off wagon and all...

vote: awaclus

[Roadrunner7671]

Purposefully playing scummy and then coming out with a claim that entirely relies on us believing its validity is absurd.

Is it too absurd to come from scum SS?

[silverspawn]

I am still not sure I like the vig to claim, unless at L-1.

Like I said, right now I am worried that if mafia knows who the vig is they will just night kill him and then we will be left at mylo trying to figure out if the masons are masons or mafia.

But if the vig remains a mystery I feel more confident that mafia will shoot a mason (if they actually are masons) than risk hitting a lowly VT.

Upside of claiming now is that we force scum to either not counterclaim or have a 1 vs 1 standoff right away, whereas if we wait and end up putting scum to L-1, he'll just claim Vig then.

[silverspawn]

I hope this means that you will treat us as ICs now, because it's strictly better to wait for tomorrow and then lynch one of us than lynching one of us today. If we hit scum today, which we probably will, then we're confirmed.

I am not treading you as an IC until you are an IC. But that doesn't necessarily mean I want to lynch you two today.

Yes, hitting scum today would be very, very nice, confirming you. And look as long as we don't derphammer we wont' lynch the vig. So if you are telling the truth we have a 2/4 chance.

And I still think awaclus is better that WW. off wagon and all...

vote: awaclus

I'm saying you should treat us as ICs for today, since there is no upside of lynching one of us now over today. If we are not confirmed tomorrow, then we can talk about it again..

[Witherweaver]

Well, that is valid that lynching scum would verify them.

[yuma]

I am still not sure I like the vig to claim, unless at L-1.

Like I said, right now I am worried that if mafia knows who the vig is they will just night kill him and then we will be left at mylo trying to figure out if the masons are masons or mafia.

But if the vig remains a mystery I feel more confident that mafia will shoot a mason (if they actually are masons) than risk hitting a lowly VT.

Upside of claiming now is that we force scum to either not counterclaim or have a 1 vs 1 standoff right away, whereas if we wait and end up putting scum to L-1, he'll just claim Vig then.

Let me put it this way. If we get a 1 v 1 standoff right away that confirms you as masons. But the only way we are going to get a 1 v 1 counterclaim is if we put mafia to L-1 because no mafia is going to just counterclaim willy nilly for the fun of it and end up confirming the two of you as masons...

[silverspawn]

You misunderstand. I am talking about the Vig.

If the Vig claims right now, it forces scum to make a decision. If they do not counterclaim, then we have the IC. If they do counterclaim, then we save ourselves the process of having to hit scum with our to-be lynch, and get the 1 - 1 standoff right away.

Which is why I want the vig to claim.

[yuma]

If we put the Vig to L-1 we don't lynch him, wait for a counter claim. If none comes he is confirmed.

If we put mafia to L-1 and he claims, we don't lynch him, wait for counter claim, lynch one today, lynch the other tomorrow. Masons are confirmed.

If no Vig claim today and we mislynch, and vig doesn't get shot in night then Vig claims tomorrow and if counter claimed we have to decide then. But again that confirms masons as masons if they haven't been already.

If No Vig claim today and we mislynch, and if vig gets shot we have to decide if masons are masons or mafia.

[chairs]

Man,  after all that work bread crumbing my name into your posts and everything.  I'm the other mason

[silverspawn]

Man,  after all that work bread crumbing my name into your posts and everything.  I'm the other mason

i know 

[yuma]

You misunderstand. I am talking about the Vig.

I am talking about the Vig as well. What I am saying is no right minded mafioso would counter claim Vig here. That isn't going to happen, because it would confirm the two of you as masons, automatically.

All that would happen is the vig would get killed during the night and then we would have to decide tomorrow if you and chairs are masons.

[silverspawn]

You misunderstand. I am talking about the Vig.

I am talking about the Vig as well. What I am saying is no right minded mafioso would counter claim Vig here. That isn't going to happen, because it would confirm the two of you as masons, automatically.

All that would happen is the vig would get killed during the night and then we would have to decide tomorrow if you and chairs are masons.

I don't understand why counter claiming vig would clear us

[yuma]

Man,  after all that work bread crumbing my name into your posts and everything.  I'm the other mason

Sorry, I just looked through and didn't see it. Can you point this out more specifically?

[yuma]

You misunderstand. I am talking about the Vig.

I am talking about the Vig as well. What I am saying is no right minded mafioso would counter claim Vig here. That isn't going to happen, because it would confirm the two of you as masons, automatically.

All that would happen is the vig would get killed during the night and then we would have to decide tomorrow if you and chairs are masons.

I don't understand why counter claiming vig would clear us

Ok.

If there is a vig and a vig counter claim. That means one of the two MUST BE MAFIA. And if one of those two MUST BE MAFIA then you and chairs can't be.

[silverspawn]

If we put the Vig to L-1 we don't lynch him, wait for a counter claim. If none comes he is confirmed.

If we put mafia to L-1 and he claims, we don't lynch him, wait for counter claim, lynch one today, lynch the other tomorrow. Masons are confirmed.

If no Vig claim today and we mislynch, and vig doesn't get shot in night then Vig claims tomorrow and if counter claimed we have to decide then. But again that confirms masons as masons if they haven't been already.

If No Vig claim today and we mislynch, and if vig gets shot we have to decide if masons are masons or mafia.

Yes, I understand that. I don't think you understand the upside yet.

If the vig does not claim right away, then we have to have 2 things come true to lynch scum. we have to a) put him to L-1 and then b) win the 1-1 standoff. Whereas if the vig claims right away, then we take away that possibility; scum can't claim vig anymore when at L-1.

[silverspawn]

You misunderstand. I am talking about the Vig.

I am talking about the Vig as well. What I am saying is no right minded mafioso would counter claim Vig here. That isn't going to happen, because it would confirm the two of you as masons, automatically.

All that would happen is the vig would get killed during the night and then we would have to decide tomorrow if you and chairs are masons.

I don't understand why counter claiming vig would clear us

Ok.

If there is a vig and a vig counter claim. That means one of the two MUST BE MAFIA. And if one of those two MUST BE MAFIA then you and chairs can't be.

Oh, that's right!

[silverspawn]

Okay, I concede, you thought it true better than I did. Vig should not claim.

Back to finding scum.

[silverspawn]

*through

[chairs]

Driving but ss can

[yuma]

Oh, that's right!

Which combined with my concern about the vig getting NKed instead of one of the masons I don't want the Vig to claim unless at L-1. So no derphammering.

PPE

[chairs]

Ok I'm in line at McDonald's so. . Ss spelled my name out as the first letter of his last 4 posts of d2 plus the first two of today.

[yuma]

Ok I'm in line at McDonald's so. . Ss spelled my name out as the first letter of his last 4 posts of d2 plus the first two of today.

ok cool.

[Witherweaver]

So... RR...  Awaclus.. Axxle.  Yuma does not seem scummy.

[Witherweaver]

Axxle on ADK, RR and Awaclus off.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, Hydrad is in this game.  He was on ADK.

[yuma]

Ok setup:

we are at at least

BMV without a universal backup and with a 1-shot vig

We could be at:
BMMMV with a universal backup and a 1-shot vig
or
BMVV without a universal backup and with a full vig

or BMMMVV with a universal back up and a full vig

or BMVXXX or BMMMVX or BMVVXX (those above with other potential roles)

We will find out the vig thing eventually. I think if we have a Universal Backup they should highly consider claiming? Or maybe not. That would lead to the same concern as before where they might target that player instead of the masons.

Mostly we just need to hit scum today, which if the masons are scum is going to be impossible. But that is the working premise.

[yuma]

Oh, Hydrad is in this game.  He was on ADK.

hydrad a dead roleblocker

[yuma]

does anyone else think it odd that axxle isn't dead? He would have been my NK choice.

[Witherweaver]

Hydrad has been killed in the night.  He was Explorer, a Town Roleblocker!
Joseph2302 has been killed in the night.  He was Crossroads, a Vanilla Townie!

Thread Unlocked

Vote Count 3.0[/color]

Not Voting (7): yuma, Roadrunner7671, Axxle, silverspawn, Awaclus, chairs, Witherweaver

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day 3 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 3 will be Monday, March 21 at 11:45 AM forum time.

Okay, good chance Hydrad is town.

So scum is two in {RR, Axxle, Awaclus}, offchance Yuma

Or scum is {Silver, Chairs}.

PPE yeah

[Witherweaver]

"You" meaning town or ww? Pedit: @rr

I think ww is pretty solidly town

vote: adk

Probably the worst vote on him right now, I think.

Axxle joining ADK wagon.

[Witherweaver]

Interaction.

More to the point, I'm arguing against Axxle's categorizing my vote as "bad" when I gave an actually reason for it and wasn't jumping on an existing wagon, which I'd like him to explain.

The reason given wasn't good imo, and the position on the wagon (3rd) tends to come from scum a bit often (they try to get on a wagon before it really starts rolling)

I'm delaying judgement on how bad ss and Awaclus votes are pending their follow up posts.

Pedit: ss is scumhunting so his vote is good

[Witherweaver]

vote: hydrad

And getting off ADK.

vote: adk

sorry, shouldn't try to stretch town on so many vote targets

I still think ss, ww, and Faust are town so those wagons are so weird looking to me.

And back on.

"We"

vote: Joseph
He and adk ignored each other super hard yesterday

And this was Day 2.

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm actually more towny on WW than Yuma.

Yuma just seems...too towny to be town? Everything is too convenient with him.

But why would scum tap Hydrad?

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure too towny to be town Yuma is scum!Yuma.

Though, town!Axxle is generall more avant-guard than he has been here.

[Axxle]

I'm the one shot vig, I shot Joseph.

Still vla so just skimmed.

If we have a universal backup, they should claim. That would solve the setup (4 town, 3 unknowns, 3 lynches left)

[silverspawn]

well... you didn't read our conclusion.

Also, shot Joseph? Seriously? I thought that was the one who had been NK'd. After all his chances to hammer gkrieg and gkrieg turning out to be scum, that was like my biggest town read.

[silverspawn]

*to be town.

well nvm that. Now it's probably Awaclus and WW.

[Witherweaver]

It is not me.  So Awaclus, RR, off-chance Yuma, pending any kind of countering.

[silverspawn]

I'll definitely re-read before making a decision. Today's lynch is probably the most important one of the game.

[chairs]

I'm leaning Awaclus/Yuma as the hilariously dynamic scum duo.

[Roadrunner7671]

Silverspawn and Chairs seems unlikely.

So it's Awaclus, WW, or Yuma?

Axxel might get counterclaimed, but for now he's an IC.

[silverspawn]

well... vote: Awaclus

Reread him - it doesn't take long, all of his votes are on confirmed town people, and he has done nothing to contribute.

[yuma]

I'm the one shot vig, I shot Joseph.

Still vla so just skimmed.

If we have a universal backup, they should claim. That would solve the setup (4 town, 3 unknowns, 3 lynches left)

No counter claim. Although I am not happy that you have claimed here. It wasn't optimal I think. But it is what it is...

Also why did you claim to be 1-shot?

This wasn't well thought out, but VLA, so understandable but frustrating...

[silverspawn]

fwiw I don't think the one-shot part is particularly harmful, since he's arguably still a better target than chairs or me... if we do not hit scum today.

Which we probably will. I have a hard time seeing a scum team without Awaclus.

[Witherweaver]

Unvote

I think Awaclus has two votes, but

Vote Count?

[silverspawn]

Unofficial Vote Count:

Awaclus (2): yuma, silverspawn

Not Voting (5): Awaclus, Roadrunner7671, Axxle, chairs, Witherweaver

[Awaclus]

Reread him - it doesn't take long, all of his votes are on confirmed town people, and he has done nothing to contribute.

Because that's totally how I typically play as scum. Oh wait, it's the exact opposite of how I play as scum.

I wasn't on the ADK wagon because there was hardly a case against him when I went to sleep and he was dead when I woke up. Given that he self-hammered, I think that scum (possibly even both of them) was bussing him.

[yuma]

Well I am giving credit to WW just for the sake of being on the wagon for now.

He was the first to vote ADK for his weird stance on RR (faust and Axxle had already been voting). Followed shortly by me and chairs.

Left off the wagon is RR, ss and awaclus.

But I just don't see RR being scum here with that interaction that got him into trouble. I don't know maybe. RR didn't exactly jump on it in defense of himself...

But if RR isn't mafia then it has to be Awaclus/WW. I will note that those two haven't been quite as aggressive with each other as they might typically be. But for now I think Awaclus has to be the vote today compared to the other options available... (RR, WW or chairs/ss).

If he is scum figuring out who his partner is will be a little bit harder I think.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Awaclus

L-1.

[silverspawn]

Reread him - it doesn't take long, all of his votes are on confirmed town people, and he has done nothing to contribute.

Because that's totally how I typically play as scum. Oh wait, it's the exact opposite of how I play as scum.

I wasn't on the ADK wagon because there was hardly a case against him when I went to sleep and he was dead when I woke up. Given that he self-hammered, I think that scum (possibly even both of them) was bussing him.

I think scum!you is generally unhelpful. Here, you have been unhelpful. Is there anything that you have done which should make me believe that you're town?

[yuma]

Reread him - it doesn't take long, all of his votes are on confirmed town people, and he has done nothing to contribute.

Because that's totally how I typically play as scum. Oh wait, it's the exact opposite of how I play as scum.

I wasn't on the ADK wagon because there was hardly a case against him when I went to sleep and he was dead when I woke up. Given that he self-hammered, I think that scum (possibly even both of them) was bussing him.

I think scum!you is generally unhelpful. Here, you have been unhelpful. Is there anything that you have done which should make me believe that you're town?

prepare yourself for a mundane answer of "Proving that he is town by voting for people who haven't been doing that" or something like that...

[2.71828.....]

Vote Count 3.1

Awaclus (3): yuma, silverspawn, Witherweaver

Not Voting (4): Roadrunner7671, Axxle, Awaclus, chairs

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day 3 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 3 will be Monday, March 21 at 11:45 AM forum time.

[Awaclus]

I think scum!you is generally unhelpful. Here, you have been unhelpful. Is there anything that you have done which should make me believe that you're town?

Here are a couple of instances of me being extremely helpful and pro-town:

unvote
vote: Awaclus
Care to comment on the game?

Not really, no.

Wait why are we lynching me?

Why should we not lynch you?

Also, my play here would be awful if I was scum. I'm not this bad at playing scum.

[Witherweaver]

But you're this bad at playing town?  I don't get the point of that.

[Awaclus]

It is also most certainly worth mentioning that gkrieg didn't really have a good defense, so my vote on him was a good one, and it also seems to be worth mentioning again that I could not possibly have been on ADK's wagon regardless of my alignment because I happened to be asleep for the entire duration of that wagon.

[Awaclus]

But you're this bad at playing town?  I don't get the point of that.

I don't think this is particularly bad at playing town. I've been scumhunting and it hasn't been as successful as it could have been, but I certainly don't think that lynching gkrieg, given the circumstances and the information we had at the time, was a bad idea that town shouldn't have done.

[Witherweaver]

But you're this bad at playing town?  I don't get the point of that.

I don't think this is particularly bad at playing town. I've been scumhunting and it hasn't been as successful as it could have been, but I certainly don't think that lynching gkrieg, given the circumstances and the information we had at the time, was a bad idea that town shouldn't have done.

Do you believe Silverspawn?

[Witherweaver]

It is also most certainly worth mentioning that gkrieg didn't really have a good defense, so my vote on him was a good one, and it also seems to be worth mentioning again that I could not possibly have been on ADK's wagon regardless of my alignment because I happened to be asleep for the entire duration of that wagon.

But your interactions with ADK are pretty minimal.. I'm not certain why you're a worse choice than Gkrieg was.


Actually, is it possible to have enough PR's to show Masons is impossible?  (Separate thought, not related to above.)

[Awaclus]

Do you believe Silverspawn?

I don't think I want to answer that.

[yuma]

Actually, is it possible to have enough PR's to show Masons is impossible?  (Separate thought, not related to above.)

It is possible. but unlikely as Masons can exist with a single M.

So the setup would need to be BVXXXX (with X not being M or T) so we would need a couple more PRs (at least) to disprove the masons...

[yuma]

Do you believe Silverspawn?

I don't think I want to answer that.

Wow guys! Look! More bad scum play. Must be town.

[Awaclus]

Wow guys! Look! More bad scum play. Must be town.

Uh, no, that is good town play. I don't want to tell the scum team how I'm going to vote at LyLo, regardless of who they are.

[Awaclus]

I'm actually going to vote: yuma here.

[yuma]

I'm actually going to vote: yuma here.

on what grounds? Being on the ADK wagon? Pushing forward a lynch that you just stated was a good wagon to push forward?

[yuma]

Wow guys! Look! More bad scum play. Must be town.

Uh, no, that is good town play. I don't want to tell the scum team how I'm going to vote at LyLo, regardless of who they are.

Stating whether or not you believe them now doesn't indicate how you will vote at lylo...

[Witherweaver]

Unvote

[Awaclus]

Wow guys! Look! More bad scum play. Must be town.

Uh, no, that is good town play. I don't want to tell the scum team how I'm going to vote at LyLo, regardless of who they are.

Stating whether or not you believe them now doesn't indicate how you will vote at lylo...

Well, if we get new information from today's lynch that changes if or not I believe them, then it doesn't. But otherwise, it does. Either way, I don't see it being beneficial in any way to do it.

on what grounds? Being on the ADK wagon? Pushing forward a lynch that you just stated was a good wagon to push forward?

I don't think that being on the ADK wagon is great because he self-voted, so there must be a reason why he didn't want any of the remaining players to be the one who hammers him. Gkrieg was a good wagon to push forward though, but that only means you don't particularly get any scum points for doing it, not that you do get town points.

[yuma]

I think it is a false premise to assume that because adk self voted there must be wagon on scum. But unless the scum team is you rr there was scum on the wagon. But not because he self voted. That would imply self voting was a good move. It wasn't. Self voting was really bad when he could have claimed it just wiggled out of it.

And I don't buss. At least I don't anymore. Ask axxle about the time it went horrible when I was partners with him... Adventure time. I think it was the first run through of this setup. Bussing sucks, especially day1

[Awaclus]

I think it is a false premise to assume that because adk self voted there must be wagon on scum. But unless the scum team is you rr there was scum on the wagon. But not because he self voted. That would imply self voting was a good move. It wasn't. Self voting was really bad when he could have claimed it just wiggled out of it.

And I don't buss. At least I don't anymore. Ask axxle about the time it went horrible when I was partners with him... Adventure time. I think it was the first run through of this setup. Bussing sucks, especially day1

ADK did self-vote, therefore we must assume that it was a good move.

I don't think that bussing sucks.

[Witherweaver]

We can't assume people play optimally. 

[Witherweaver]

We have copious evidence to the contrary.

[Awaclus]

We can't assume people play optimally.

No, that is precisely what we must do.

[Witherweaver]

Sigh

[Roadrunner7671]

Sigh

[yuma]

We can't assume people play optimally.

No, that is precisely what we must do.

Um... No. Self voting was bad. He would have lived had he claimed. Probably through the day. Hydrad and I both already stated we would have unvoted.

And I don't really care what you think of bussing. What I care is what matters. And I strongly dislike bussing.

[yuma]

Sigh

Why did you unvote?

[Witherweaver]

Sigh

Why did you unvote?

Mostly because RR is in this game.

[Roadrunner7671]

Sigh

Why did you unvote?

Mostly because RR is in this game.

RR, the guy who never hammers or puts people at L-1 or L-2 or L-16?

[Witherweaver]

Except for all those times when he did.

[Roadrunner7671]

Except for all those times when he did.

He's unpredictable, isn't he?
Oh, I guess that's why you unvoted.

[Awaclus]

Um... No. Self voting was bad.

Well, that confirms you as scum then, because town can't make that assumption.

[yuma]

Um... No. Self voting was bad.

Well, that confirms you as scum then, because town can't make that assumption.

can we just lynch this fool already?

[Awaclus]

Um... No. Self voting was bad.

Well, that confirms you as scum then, because town can't make that assumption.

can we just lynch this fool already?

If by "this fool" you mean yourself, sure.

[yuma]

take a poll?

Who thought self hammering was a good idea. People in the speccy QT... who thought it was a good idea? Seriously. Post in the speccy what you think, we can come back to it after the game.

no way, no how was self voting there a good move. It doesn't make me scum. It was a bad move. It isn't an assumption, it was a fact, or at the least I can guarantee that a significant majority of the fellow players (most of whom are town) and observers (who are neutral) feel the exact same way I do.

[2.71828.....]

sorry about that

[silverspawn]

I don't think it's 100% clear; he did cut the day shorter than we'd have liked it, so it did fulfill a purpose. But, like I said, I don't think it was worth the chance he still had to avoid a lynch. I wouldn't have done it.

[yuma]

sorry about that

I did change my picture thing. Thanks for noticing.

[silverspawn]

I'm fine with lynching Awaclus though. His defense is not exactly impressive.

[yuma]

And even regardless of why he did it, my opinion that it was a bad move in no way signifies my alignment. Awaclus in a far superior lynch to me in every conceivable way. I don't really think I am arguing with the people whose vote really matters though. Awaclus is just doing what awaclus does. Some people find it endearing. Sufficient to say that I do not.

[Awaclus]

no way, no how was self voting there a good move. It doesn't make me scum. It was a bad move. It isn't an assumption, it was a fact, or at the least I can guarantee that a significant majority of the fellow players (most of whom are town) and observers (who are neutral) feel the exact same way I do.

Then you should stop feeling that way. There is never any reason to expect anything less than optimal play from other players (applies to every game, not just Mafia). If a play looks like it's a bad play, you have to assume that it only looks like a bad play to you because that person knows something that you don't.

[yuma]

Ok, that is a fair point. Maybe in some conceivable way there is a chance that ADK's hammer somehow will be instrumental in winning the game. But I very much doubt it. And don't see how that doubt can have any relationship to my alignment... or more importantly how you think it can.

[silverspawn]

If a play looks like it's a bad play, you have to assume that it only looks like a bad play to you because that person knows something that you don't.

Yeah... or... you could be better than your opponent and understand exactly why he does the mistake he does... which happens a quadrillion times to people playing dominion... or prismata... or a lot of other games...

Ok, that is a fair point.

What? No, that's a stupid point. Just because it's humble doesn't mean it's not wrong.

[silverspawn]

if my opponent who is ranked 300 points lower than me plays a drone opening that is mathematically worse, do I have to assume that my entire understanding of maths and/or the game is false?  You just said there is never any reason to assume that your opponent made a mistake.

[yuma]

.

Ok, that is a fair point.

What? No, that's a stupid point. Just because it's humble doesn't mean it's not wrong.

Well specifically I meant the part about not excepting anything but optimal play from other players. I shouldn't assume it was the correct play, but I should assume that there may be something that I don't know. But that doesn't stop me from having an opinion on the matter.

[silverspawn]

In mafia, I'll buy that. Not in 'every game'.

[yuma]

In mafia, I'll buy that. Not in 'every game'.

Well I the only games I play are mafia and online games of Dominion against the bots... and I always assume they aren't playing optimally...

[Awaclus]

if my opponent who is ranked 300 points lower than me plays a drone opening that is mathematically worse, do I have to assume that my entire understanding of maths and/or the game is false?  You just said there is never any reason to assume that your opponent made a mistake.

Prismata is an edge case because it doesn't have hidden information.

Yeah... or... you could be better than your opponent and understand exactly why he does the mistake he does... which happens a quadrillion times to people playing dominion... or prismata... or a lot of other games...

It doesn't happen in Dominion. If your opponent is making a mistake, you can play as though it was the correct play and you still win — because your opponent made a mistake. But if it actually is the correct play in that situation, you might win if you assume that it's the correct play or you might lose if you wrongly assume that it was a bad play. Even if you can be mathematically sure that your opponent's play is less than optimal, you should assume that it's as close to optimal as it can possibly be under those circumstances.

[silverspawn]

ahm vote: Awaclus

that said vote: Awaclus

[Awaclus]

It's worth noting that yuma was scummy before this discussion. It was just another point that fit the narrative of him being scum, not the whole reason I'm voting for him.

[yuma]

It's worth noting that yuma was scummy before this discussion. It was just another point that fit the narrative of him being scum, not the whole reason I'm voting for him.

how? details? information?

[2.71828.....]

Everyone was infuriated by the note.  "The audacity!"  "They think we will give up!" "Never!" "Scout4life!" were just some of the cries that rose up from the remaining cards.  But also accusations....

Vote Count 3.2

Awaclus (2): yuma, silverspawn
yuma (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (4): Roadrunner7671, Axxle, chairs, Witherweaver

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day 3 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 3 will be Monday, March 21 at 11:45 AM forum time.

[Awaclus]

Actually vote: silverspawn feels a lot more comfortable than yuma here.

PPE:

It's worth noting that yuma was scummy before this discussion. It was just another point that fit the narrative of him being scum, not the whole reason I'm voting for him.

how? details? information?

Well, now that it's not so relevant anymore, the reason was that your play on this day in particular seemed like you were making a case on me based on not how I've played in this game, but how I play in every game regardless of my alignment. This seemed to me like it had to be intentional, which would be extremely scummy.

[silverspawn]

Actually vote: silverspawn feels a lot more comfortable than yuma here.

Yes, let us vote for the mason. vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus 

vote: Awaclus

!

[Axxle]

Ahahahahahahaha

[Roadrunner7671]

SS, you're playing really scummy. Even if you're almost confirmed town, you might want to try to be a little towny.


And I'm just going to say that we shouldn't forget about the Golden Rule.

[silverspawn]

SS, you're playing really scummy. Even if you're almost confirmed town, you might want to try to be a little towny.


And I'm just going to say that we shouldn't forget about the Golden Rule.

The golden rule is stupid. But if I ever vote for a mason, you can be sure that I won't complain if you vote for me.

[Roadrunner7671]

The golden rule is stupid.

See the above part of my post.

[silverspawn]

The golden rule is stupid.

See the above part of my post.

The golden rule is stupid. that has nothing to do with mafia.

[yuma]

The golden rule is stupid.

See the above part of my post.

The golden rule is stupid. that has nothing to do with mafia.

Yeah do unto others as you would do unto yourself? What sort of weird crap is that? Why would I want what you want? Your tastes are pretty messed up! (your being not you specifically but a hypothetical entity)

[Roadrunner7671]

Policy lynching SS is not a thing we can do.

Just reminding myself and others.

[silverspawn]

The golden rule is stupid.

See the above part of my post.

The golden rule is stupid. that has nothing to do with mafia.

Yeah do unto others as you would do unto yourself? What sort of weird crap is that? Why would I want what you want? Your tastes are pretty messed up! (your being not you specifically but a hypothetical entity)

It is extremely messed up. If you don't care about people knocking on your door before entering, the golden rule allows you to enter other people's rooms without entering. If you don't care about being insulted, the golden rule allows you to insult other people. etc.

I don't want to be treated the way other people want to be treated. I want to be treated the way I want to be treated. The golden rule implies using your standards on everyone else. It's ahh I hate it.

[silverspawn]

*without knocking.

God I hate the golden rule so much.

[yuma]

Actually vote: silverspawn feels a lot more comfortable than yuma here.

PPE:

It's worth noting that yuma was scummy before this discussion. It was just another point that fit the narrative of him being scum, not the whole reason I'm voting for him.

how? details? information?

Well, now that it's not so relevant anymore, the reason was that your play on this day in particular seemed like you were making a case on me based on not how I've played in this game, but how I play in every game regardless of my alignment. This seemed to me like it had to be intentional, which would be extremely scummy.

Well now I want the relevant info... Why vote for ss?

[silverspawn]

vote: Golden rule lynch it!!!!

okay no vote: Awaclus

[Roadrunner7671]

This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.


What part of this is so despicable?

[yuma]

. I want to be treated the way I want to be treated.

I once gave a presentation on this very idea. I called it the Platinum Rule. Totally got the idea for the name from Dominion...

[yuma]

This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.


What part of this is so despicable?

Once again you are missing the point

[Roadrunner7671]

This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.


What part of this is so despicable?

Once again you are missing the point

What's the point?

[silverspawn]

This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.


What part of this is so despicable?

Oh no, I was talking about the Golden Rule-Golden Rule, not the mafia golden rule. This one:

One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself

As for the mafia Golden Rule, I didn't violate that. I think Awaclus is being stubborn because he's scum. That's not personal.

[silverspawn]

The Mafia Golden Rule is fine, though.

[Roadrunner7671]

The Mafia Golden Rule is fine, though.

Dayvig: ss

[Roadrunner7671]

This is terrible.
Vote: ss
Call this scummy, that's cool. But apparently 'you need to vote' and 'voting is the only form of expression' and 'you should only not be voting at LyLo' and all this fake stuff.

[silverspawn]

This is terrible.
Vote: ss
Call this scummy, that's cool. But apparently 'you need to vote' and 'voting is the only form of expression' and 'you should only not be voting at LyLo' and all this fake stuff.

 

[Roadrunner7671]

This is terrible.
Vote: ss
Call this scummy, that's cool. But apparently 'you need to vote' and 'voting is the only form of expression' and 'you should only not be voting at LyLo' and all this fake stuff.

 

You know it's true.

[silverspawn]

I don't really understand what you're doing at all.

The Mafia Golden Rule is fine, though.

Dayvig: ss

So you think the mafia golden rule is not fine?

[silverspawn]

Let's post a few emotes

 

Am I town again now?

[Roadrunner7671]

VLA until this stops.

[silverspawn]

VLA until this stops.

Until what stops?

[Awaclus]

As for the mafia Golden Rule, I didn't violate that. I think Awaclus is being stubborn because he's scum. That's not personal.

I think you're being stubborn because you're scum.

[yuma]

VLA until this stops.

Stop voting for ss. You are grossly misunderstanding what is going on.

PPE: or maybe you are Awaclus' parter?

[yuma]

The Mafia Golden Rule is fine, though.

Dayvig: ss

That is my bit. You should stop stealing it.

[Roadrunner7671]

VLA until this stops.

Stop voting for ss. You are grossly misunderstanding what is going on.

PPE: or maybe you are Awaclus' parter?

What is going on?

[silverspawn]

Let me summarize what happened

- RR said I should respect the Golden Rule
- I explained why I despise the Golden Rule
- RR freaked out and voted for me

So yeah, I don't get it.

[Roadrunner7671]

Let me summarize what happened

- RR said I should respect the Golden Rule
- I explained why I despise the Golden Rule
- RR freaked out and voted for me

So yeah, I don't get it.

I don't get it either.

[silverspawn]

I don't get it either.

But you did it. Why are you voting for me?

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't get it either.

But you did it. Why are you voting for me?

Incredibly scummy behavior.
I was hoping you'd tone it down.

[silverspawn]

Okay, look. Your perception is completely subjective. I don't think I've been scummy, but if you think it, sure. However, there is no logical reason to lynch either of chairs or me today rather than tomorrow. So, please unvote, or better yet, vote for Awaclus instead.

[Roadrunner7671]

Okay, look. Your perception is completely subjective. I don't think I've been scummy, but if you think it, sure. However, there is no logical reason to lynch either of chairs or me today rather than tomorrow. So, please unvote, or better yet, vote for Awaclus instead.

Unvote
But if Awaclus flips town, I'm going to be very suspicious of you.

[silverspawn]

meh. sure.

[Awaclus]

Okay, look. Your perception is completely subjective. I don't think I've been scummy, but if you think it, sure. However, there is no logical reason to lynch either of chairs or me today rather than tomorrow. So, please unvote, or better yet, vote for Awaclus instead.

Why not? If we lynch one of you today, either we lynch scum and have another confirmed scum who we can lynch tomorrow, or we create an IC out of the other one. It's pretty good, considering that the former scenario is extremely likely.

[yuma]

Okay, look. Your perception is completely subjective. I don't think I've been scummy, but if you think it, sure. However, there is no logical reason to lynch either of chairs or me today rather than tomorrow. So, please unvote, or better yet, vote for Awaclus instead.

Why not? If we lynch one of you today, either we lynch scum and have another confirmed scum who we can lynch tomorrow, or we create an IC out of the other one. It's pretty good, considering that the former scenario is extremely likely.

I actually just went through this. These are the scenarios...

(note: they are not all equally likely to happen):

- lynch a mason - turns up mafia - game over, lynch other mason. All other players are IC
- lynch a mason - turns up town - other Mason confirmed IC, Axxle IC. One is Night killed. One IC left
- lynch a non-mason - turns up mafia - Masons are confirmed IC along with Axxle. 3 ICs
- lynch a non-mason - turn up town - mason is NKed. Other mason is IC along with Axxle. 2 ICs
- lynch a non-mason - turn up town - Axxle is NKed. Mason status us uncertain. No ICs

[yuma]

lynching from the masons is higher risk, higher reward.

lynching out of the masons is lower risk, lower reward.

[silverspawn]

Okay, look. Your perception is completely subjective. I don't think I've been scummy, but if you think it, sure. However, there is no logical reason to lynch either of chairs or me today rather than tomorrow. So, please unvote, or better yet, vote for Awaclus instead.

Why not? If we lynch one of you today, either we lynch scum and have another confirmed scum who we can lynch tomorrow, or we create an IC out of the other one. It's pretty good, considering that the former scenario is extremely likely.

If We are

... Scum
... ... and you lynch one of us us today -> town wins 100%
... ... and you lynch one of us tomorrow -> town wins 100%
... Town
... ... and you lynch one of us today -> 5p LyLo with 1 IC
... ... and you don't lynch one of us today -> depends on the lynch, but better than the above

thus, not lynching one of us today is strictly better than lynching one of us today.

[Roadrunner7671]

lynching from the masons is higher risk, higher reward.

lynching out of the masons is lower risk, lower reward.

I'm not feeling desperate or lucky.
But SS is scummy.

[Awaclus]

... Scum
... ... and you lynch one of us us today -> town wins 100%
... ... and you lynch one of us tomorrow -> town wins 100%
... Town
... ... and you lynch one of us today -> 5p LyLo with 1 IC
... ... and you don't lynch one of us today -> depends on the lynch, but better than the above

That's not how it works.

... Scum
... ... and we lynch one of you today -> town wins 100%
... ... and we lynch town today (100% chance if we choose to not lynch you) -> 5p LyLo with 0 ICs
... Town
... ... and we lynch one of you today -> 5p LyLo with 1 IC
... ... and we lynch town today (50% chance if we choose to not lynch you) -> 5p LyLo with 0 ICs
... ... and we lynch scum today (50% chance if we choose to not lynch you) -> 1 vs 4 with 2 ICs

Lynching you is better than lynching non-Mason town regardless of your alignment, and if we don't lynch you, we are statistically more likely to lynch town.

[silverspawn]

Flaw in your argument:

(100% chance if we choose to not lynch you)

This is quite simple. Lynching one of us guarantees victory if we are scum. It does this both if you do it today and if you do it tomorrow. If you don't do it today then there is a chance that the problem solves itself. Thus, it is strictly better that, if you want to do it, to do it tomorrow.

The fact that you're refusing this further makes me think you're town. The Awaclus I know understands simple logic. Everyone else, I don't think anyone has a problem with the above? It's foolproof. If you want to lynch one of us, do it tomorrow.

[Witherweaver]

Roadrunner is scum.

Vote: Roadrunner

[Roadrunner7671]

Roadrunner is scum.

Vote: Roadrunner

Is he though?

[Axxle]

Lynching a mason without a universal backup claim is *pretty* darn silly.

[Roadrunner7671]

Lynching a mason without a universal backup claim is *pretty* darn silly.

I don't think the UB should claim.

[silverspawn]

UB means MMMVB, right? Very unlikely. It's much more likely that we rolled MVB

[chairs]

It's just as likely as any other roll which we have gone over many times discussing these sorts of setups.  Regardless,  I'm going to vote: awaclus feels better than rr to me right now.

[silverspawn]

We have been over it several times, but apparently it's still not understood . . .

[yuma]

It's just as likely as any other roll which we have gone over many times discussing these sorts of setups.  Regardless,  I'm going to vote: awaclus feels better than rr to me right now.

I don't think so... the roll part. I agree with your vote.

[Awaclus]

This is quite simple. Lynching one of us guarantees victory if we are scum. It does this both if you do it today and if you do it tomorrow. If you don't do it today then there is a chance that the problem solves itself. Thus, it is strictly better that, if you want to do it, to do it tomorrow.

The fact that you're refusing this further makes me think you're town. The Awaclus I know understands simple logic. Everyone else, I don't think anyone has a problem with the above? It's foolproof. If you want to lynch one of us, do it tomorrow.

No, it is not that simple. I listed all of the possible situations that we might end up in depending on your alignment and the choices that town makes, including the probabilities of various things happening. That's what you have to do. You have to consider all of them. You don't just get to cherry pick the ones that you like to make your argument seem like it holds water. Sure, that way, it seems simpler, but just because something is simple doesn't mean it's right, and the suggestion that town!me would fall for bs like that is not very flattering.

[Witherweaver]

Does no one agree with me that RR is scum?  SS sounds like his town self throughout these arguments (not so much initially, but in the latest interactions).  RR/Yuma is possible, mostly because I don't get Yuma's reluctance to pursue his lynch.  RR/Awaclus is probably the most likely.  Yuma/Awaclus is probably not likely.. especially since they'd have to go after RR and me here, which they aren't. 

[Roadrunner7671]

Does no one agree with me that RR is scum?  SS sounds like his town self throughout these arguments (not so much initially, but in the latest interactions).  RR/Yuma is possible, mostly because I don't get Yuma's reluctance to pursue his lynch.  RR/Awaclus is probably the most likely.  Yuma/Awaclus is probably not likely.. especially since they'd have to go after RR and me here, which they aren't.

Well, WW, if we both make it to LyLo, we can talk about it. But I think everyone knows I'm town.

[yuma]

Does no one agree with me that RR is scum?  SS sounds like his town self throughout these arguments (not so much initially, but in the latest interactions).  RR/Yuma is possible, mostly because I don't get Yuma's reluctance to pursue his lynch.  RR/Awaclus is probably the most likely.  Yuma/Awaclus is probably not likely.. especially since they'd have to go after RR and me here, which they aren't.

He has a decent chance. I just think that awaclus is much more of a sure thing. Again I go back to ADK's involvement with RR that got him in such hot water in the first place.

I want to go after the much more likely lynch before trying to figure out the question marks...

[silverspawn]

I do not get scum vibes from RR. I think his play has been super extra weird and random this game and that's a bit of a town tell.

[Roadrunner7671]

Scum wants this game to slow down. I think we lynch in the pool of Awaclus, Yuma and WW. If we hit scum, great! Scum has pretty much lost at that point. If we don't hit scum, we'll analyze the night kill and consider lynching both chairs and SS.

[yuma]

Scum wants this game to slow down. I think we lynch in the pool of Awaclus, Yuma and WW. If we hit scum, great! Scum has pretty much lost at that point. If we don't hit scum, we'll analyze the night kill and consider lynching both chairs and SS.

I am voting for awaclus. I think those not voting are waiting for IC axxle to stop being on vla so he can have a say. Cause like you say if we miss he is likely the kill tonight and should get down whatever he wants to say before then.

[Witherweaver]

I would like to full reread before we lynch.

[Roadrunner7671]

Scum wants this game to slow down. I think we lynch in the pool of Awaclus, Yuma and WW. If we hit scum, great! Scum has pretty much lost at that point. If we don't hit scum, we'll analyze the night kill and consider lynching both chairs and SS.

I am voting for awaclus. I think those not voting are waiting for IC axxle to stop being on vla so he can have a say. Cause like you say if we miss he is likely the kill tonight and should get down whatever he wants to say before then.

Yeah, I'm down with sitting here awkwardly until Axxel arrives.

[Witherweaver]

Scum wants this game to slow down. I think we lynch in the pool of Awaclus, Yuma and WW. If we hit scum, great! Scum has pretty much lost at that point. If we don't hit scum, we'll analyze the night kill and consider lynching both chairs and SS.

I am voting for awaclus. I think those not voting are waiting for IC axxle to stop being on vla so he can have a say. Cause like you say if we miss he is likely the kill tonight and should get down whatever he wants to say before then.

Yeah, I'm down with sitting here awkwardly until Axxel arrives.

You can also, you know, do work actually figuring out who is scum.

[2.71828.....]

It was a much more somber...and smaller....crowd that was gathered together.  "Well, I know what will help us guarantee to find the imposters.  I am a confirmed Scout Loyalist along with my good friend over here."

"Confirmed by who" muttered some of the other cards.  "I am a confirmed Scout loyalist too.  By myself. I think you are just trying to trick us."

Vote Count 3.3

Awaclus (3): yuma, silverspawn, chairs (L-1)
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Roadrunner7671 (1): Witherweaver

Not Voting (2): Axxle, Roadrunner7671

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day 3 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 3 will be Monday, March 21 at 11:45 AM forum time.

It's just as likely as any other roll which we have gone over many times discussing these sorts of setups.  Regardless,  I'm going to vote: awaclus feels better than rr to me right now.

this vote was missed in the vote count

Fixed

[yuma]

It's just as likely as any other roll which we have gone over many times discussing these sorts of setups.  Regardless,  I'm going to vote: awaclus feels better than rr to me right now.

this vote was missed in the vote count

[2.71828.....]

It's just as likely as any other roll which we have gone over many times discussing these sorts of setups.  Regardless,  I'm going to vote: awaclus feels better than rr to me right now.

this vote was missed in the vote count

Thanks

[silverspawn]

Mh. This is stalling. Can we lynch Awaclus?

[Roadrunner7671]

Mh. This is stalling. Can we lynch Awaclus?

He's at L-1. Before we lynch him, I want two things:
1. A claim.
2. Axxel's commentary.

[Awaclus]

Mh. This is stalling. Can we lynch Awaclus?

No. I'll make a case against you before that happens, super surprised that I actually have to do that though.

[yuma]

Mh. This is stalling. Can we lynch Awaclus?

Waiting for IC axxle to be off VLA. Worth waiting for that at least I think.

[Witherweaver]

I still have not reread. 

[Witherweaver]

Though, his play today supports him being scum.

[silverspawn]

Mh. This is stalling. Can we lynch Awaclus?

No. I'll make a case against you before that happens, super surprised that I actually have to do that though.

... you don't have to go through the effort. As I said already, in case of chairs/me scum team, you win 100% by lynching us tomorrow, so there's zero reason to do it today. Even if you have 95% confidence that I'm scum, it's still bad play. I trust that other players understand this, so yeah, no chance.

[Awaclus]

Mh. This is stalling. Can we lynch Awaclus?

No. I'll make a case against you before that happens, super surprised that I actually have to do that though.

... you don't have to go through the effort. As I said already, in case of chairs/me scum team, you win 100% by lynching us tomorrow, so there's zero reason to do it today. Even if you have 95% confidence that I'm scum, it's still bad play. I trust that other players understand this, so yeah, no chance.

That logic is faulty, as has been pointed out already.

[silverspawn]

it has not been pointed out, because it is not faulty.

[yuma]

Yay another chance for the WW quote about pointlessness...

[Awaclus]

My play was purposefully scummy to not draw a NK, and potentially gain information if people jump on my wagon. sufficient to say, it worked.

Convenient excuse for the fact that his play has been scummy.

I talked about this with my partner, and we want to delay his claim-- if I don't die tonight, then he can claim tomorrow.

Convenient excuse to not out your partner. Masons would just both claim in this situation, because the other Mason can get counterclaimed if silverspawn dies.

If no-one has objections, then I'll play this like an IC from now on, i.e. won't provide reads n stuff.

Convenient excuse to continue to be scummy.

Erm... obviously my partner and me tried to not make it obvious who the other one is once the first one claimed, and we have no problems voting for each other. The only way it's Axxle is if we went for a double-cross strategy and deliberately didn't vote because we expect scum to expect that we did in fact vote. Did we do that? Maybe? You are fishing for information here. I'm not telling you who my partner is.

Masons don't try to not make it obvious who the other one is. Masons want to make it obvious who the other one so that their claim is credible when they claim. You know who doesn't want to make it obvious who the other one is? Scum.

There is no evidence here. Everything I did makes perfect sense.

As scum, yeah. As a mason, no.

That's totally wrong. the point of masons is NOT to win the trust of town. You already have that. The point is to make the most out of your conf!town status.

No, we absolutely don't have that. Trust of town nor masons, for that matter.

I guess I see absolutely no reason as to why you want to keep your partner hidden?

What purpose does that serve?

a) if I don't die then scum needs one more day to kill him
b) it gives us way more information if he is close to being lynched

Fishing for my partner's name here is very scummy by the way.

a is simply not true. If silverspawn doesn't die, then scum needs one more day to kill him regardless of if he claimed or not. b is not a good reason. Hunting for silverspawn's scum partner there is super not scummy and that statement by silverspawn is a variation of OMGUS.

Look. Before that game, you would have treated me as conf!town. You proved that, because you did it with ash, and it is the right play.

It wasn't the right play in that game. And it isn't the right play in this game, either.

That makes no sense. We want to keep our identities hidden. We'll vote for each other.

We've been over this. No you don't.

I hope this means that you will treat us as ICs now, because it's strictly better to wait for tomorrow and then lynch one of us than lynching one of us today. If we hit scum today, which we probably will, then we're confirmed.

That's not how it works. Sure, if you're scum, then you lose either way, and because you seem to think that you lose either way, that makes it a lot more likely that you're approaching this problem from a scum perspective.

I'm saying you should treat us as ICs for today, since there is no upside of lynching one of us now over today. If we are not confirmed tomorrow, then we can talk about it again..

The thing is, you're probably not going to be confirmed tomorrow. Lynching a townie doesn't help confirming you. Lynching mason!you would actually help for PoE tomorrow, but obviously you don't care about that because you're not a mason.

I don't understand why counter claiming vig would clear us

More proof of not coming from a town perspective.

well... vote: Awaclus

Reread him - it doesn't take long, all of his votes are on confirmed town people, and he has done nothing to contribute.

A case on me constructed out of absolutely no reasons to actually think that I'm scum.

Actually vote: silverspawn feels a lot more comfortable than yuma here.

Yes, let us vote for the mason. vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus vote: Awaclus 

vote: Awaclus

!

"Oh crap, we're actually going to lose this game if I get lynched and now someone is voting for me, better start pushing for the easiest imaginable mislynch as soon and as hard as possible!"

Let's post a few emotes

 

Am I town again now?

No.

If We are

... Scum
... ... and you lynch one of us us today -> town wins 100%
... ... and you lynch one of us tomorrow -> town wins 100%
... Town
... ... and you lynch one of us today -> 5p LyLo with 1 IC
... ... and you don't lynch one of us today -> depends on the lynch, but better than the above

thus, not lynching one of us today is strictly better than lynching one of us today.

Notice how he uses different comparisons for the scenarios in which he is scum and town, respectively. In the case where he's town, he's comparing what happens if we lynch one of them now vs. if we don't lynch one of them now, which is the reasonable comparison to make, but in the case where he's scum, he's comparing what happens if we lynch one of them vs. if we lynch one of them later. That is not the reasonable comparison to make. Furthermore, if the masons are, indeed, town, there's a 50% chance (i.e. the chance that we mislynch today) that we actually enter 5p LyLo with 0 ICs, which is significantly worse than the scenario in which we lynch one of them today. This chart of different outcomes is blatantly false due to that "better than the above" statement, and in its entirety, it has been constructed to paint the best possible picture of not lynching them today, not to accurately represent the reality of the situation.

Flaw in your argument:

(100% chance if we choose to not lynch you)

This is quite simple. Lynching one of us guarantees victory if we are scum. It does this both if you do it today and if you do it tomorrow. If you don't do it today then there is a chance that the problem solves itself. Thus, it is strictly better that, if you want to do it, to do it tomorrow.

The fact that you're refusing this further makes me think you're town. The Awaclus I know understands simple logic. Everyone else, I don't think anyone has a problem with the above? It's foolproof. If you want to lynch one of us, do it tomorrow.

Further tactics to skew the probabilities in his favor by ignoring the possible cases that would make it seem worse, followed by an argumentum ad passiones targeted at me to make me feel like I should stop voting for him.


Yeah, I mean, at least ash and gkrieg did a pretty good job at actually looking like real masons.

[silverspawn]

Look. Everyone except Awaclus. I will say one more thing about this, and then I'll stop. I won't read this 'case'.

Let us say the scum team was chairs and me.

You lynch one of us today, you win 100%.
You lynch someone else today, and one of us tomorrow, you win 100%.

However, lynching someone else today will also give information which will most likely solve the problem anyway.

Thus, it is strictly better not to lynch one of us today regardless of whether or not you believe our claims.

This is very simple and foolproof logic. I believe that everyone in this thread understands this, including Awaclus. Or does anyone of you not see it?

The fact that Awaclus debates against it most likely means he's scum. I get lynched now, flip town, he gets lynched tomorrow, his partner has a good shot. If we lynch him directly, much worse. That's his intention.

[silverspawn]

So please for the love of god just hammer him.

[Roadrunner7671]

So please for the love of god just hammer him.

I have intent to hammer, don't get me wrong.

But we're waiting for our only real IC.

[silverspawn]

So please for the love of god just hammer him.

fwiw this answer makes you super towny.

[silverspawn]

err meant to quote your answer

[Witherweaver]

So please for the love of god just hammer him.

fwiw this answer makes you super towny.

This is worrisome, because I have a hard time seeing it being Awaclus and Yuma.

[Roadrunner7671]

So please for the love of god just hammer him.

fwiw this answer makes you super towny.

FWIW?

[Roadrunner7671]

So please for the love of god just hammer him.

fwiw this answer makes you super towny.

This is worrisome, because I have a hard time seeing it being Awaclus and Yuma.

Could be Awaclus/Yuma Awaclus/WW WW/Yuma or SS/Chairs, in that order.

[Awaclus]

Let us say the scum team was chairs and me.

You lynch one of us today, you win 100%.
You lynch someone else today, and one of us tomorrow, you win 100%.

However, lynching someone else today will also give information which will most likely solve the problem anyway.

Thus, it is strictly better not to lynch one of us today regardless of whether or not you believe our claims.

This is very simple and foolproof logic. I believe that everyone in this thread understands this, including Awaclus. Or does anyone of you not see it?

The fact that Awaclus debates against it most likely means he's scum. I get lynched now, flip town, he gets lynched tomorrow, his partner has a good shot. If we lynch him directly, much worse. That's his intention.

Just look at this post. He doesn't even address my counterpoint to his argument, every time he has just repeated his own bs over and over again. Except that now he has started leaving out the part which highlighted how the argument is skewed, i.e. the part where he used a different comparison to demonstrate the case where he's town.

However, lynching someone else today will also give information which will most likely solve the problem anyway.

He also continues to completely ignore the statistical truth that we have a 50/50 chance of lynching town if the masons are town and insists that it's "most likely" that the one 50% chance that fits his narrative happens while the remaining 50% is, by extension, least likely.


Hey look, I can do it too!


If Masons are

... Scum
... ... and we lynch one of them today -> town wins 100%
... ... and we don't lynch one of them today -> 5p LyLo with 0 ICs
... Town
... ... and we lynch one of them today -> 5p LyLo with 1 IC
... ... and we lynch one of them tomorrow -> town loses 100%

thus, lynching one of them today is strictly better than lynching one of us today.

See? It's really easy to twist statistics in your favor when you cherry pick the parts that you like and leave out the rest.

[Awaclus]

thus, lynching one of them today is strictly better than lynching one of us today.

Copypastefail, meant to say thus, lynching one of them today is strictly better than lynching one of them tomorrow.

[Awaclus]

Also, I would like to remind you that silver's case on me was "his defense was not impressive" (never mind that I actually did have a valid defense) + OMGUS.

[yuma]

Pointlessness begats pointlessness

[yuma]

Also, I would like to remind you that silver's case on me was "his defense was not impressive" (never mind that I actually did have a valid defense) + OMGUS.

You didn't but I am afraid that the above post of mine will apply here.

Also this response of awaclus screams scum. Awaclus when town doesn't go into this trouble

[Awaclus]

Pointlessness begats pointlessness

I would appreciate it if you could forget that I'm me for a moment and approach this objectively instead of assuming that everything I say is pointless simply because it's being said by me. There's no way in hell that silverspawn's case on me, the vast majority of which is just OMGUS, should be more credible than me actually pointing out the blatant lack of town narrative from the masons and the manipulation techniques silverspawn is using now.

[Awaclus]

Also, I would like to remind you that silver's case on me was "his defense was not impressive" (never mind that I actually did have a valid defense) + OMGUS.

You didn't but I am afraid that the above post of mine will apply here.

Also this response of awaclus screams scum. Awaclus when town doesn't go into this trouble

I go into any trouble to win a game.

[Witherweaver]

Also, I would like to remind you that silver's case on me was "his defense was not impressive" (never mind that I actually did have a valid defense) + OMGUS.

You didn't but I am afraid that the above post of mine will apply here.

Also this response of awaclus screams scum. Awaclus when town doesn't go into this trouble

Why not?  I would think Awaclus scum doesn't go into this trouble.

[yuma]

Pointlessness begats pointlessness

I would appreciate it if you could forget that I'm me for a moment and approach this objectively instead of assuming that everything I say is pointless simply because it's being said by me. There's no way in hell that silverspawn's case on me, the vast majority of which is just OMGUS, should be more credible than me actually pointing out the blatant lack of town narrative from the masons and the manipulation techniques silverspawn is using now.

If you aren't scum I will certainly reassess, I assure you.

[silverspawn]

Also, I would like to remind you that silver's case on me was "his defense was not impressive" (never mind that I actually did have a valid defense) + OMGUS.

You didn't but I am afraid that the above post of mine will apply here.

Also this response of awaclus screams scum. Awaclus when town doesn't go into this trouble

Why not?  I would think Awaclus scum doesn't go into this trouble.

Why not? I think he has a great narrative, which I explained above.

[yuma]

Also, I would like to remind you that silver's case on me was "his defense was not impressive" (never mind that I actually did have a valid defense) + OMGUS.

You didn't but I am afraid that the above post of mine will apply here.

Also this response of awaclus screams scum. Awaclus when town doesn't go into this trouble

Why not?  I would think Awaclus scum doesn't go into this trouble.

Awaclus as scum tends to explain his thinking a lot more than as town.

[Awaclus]

Pointlessness begats pointlessness

I would appreciate it if you could forget that I'm me for a moment and approach this objectively instead of assuming that everything I say is pointless simply because it's being said by me. There's no way in hell that silverspawn's case on me, the vast majority of which is just OMGUS, should be more credible than me actually pointing out the blatant lack of town narrative from the masons and the manipulation techniques silverspawn is using now.

If you aren't scum I will certainly reassess, I assure you.

Well, a good thing that I'm not, in that case.

Also, I would like to remind you that silver's case on me was "his defense was not impressive" (never mind that I actually did have a valid defense) + OMGUS.

You didn't but I am afraid that the above post of mine will apply here.

Also this response of awaclus screams scum. Awaclus when town doesn't go into this trouble

Why not?  I would think Awaclus scum doesn't go into this trouble.

Awaclus as scum tends to explain his thinking a lot more than as town.

I would have loved to not have to explain this, and I really thought that I wouldn't have to, given how incredibly nonexistent the masons' narrative is, but I waited for a good long while and nobody was doing anything about it.

[Awaclus]

Pointlessness begats pointlessness

I would appreciate it if you could forget that I'm me for a moment and approach this objectively instead of assuming that everything I say is pointless simply because it's being said by me. There's no way in hell that silverspawn's case on me, the vast majority of which is just OMGUS, should be more credible than me actually pointing out the blatant lack of town narrative from the masons and the manipulation techniques silverspawn is using now.

If you aren't scum I will certainly reassess, I assure you.

No wait, are you just saying that until I flip town, you will continue to prioritize your personal bias against me over trying your best to actually win the game? Jesus fuck man.

[Witherweaver]

Also, I would like to remind you that silver's case on me was "his defense was not impressive" (never mind that I actually did have a valid defense) + OMGUS.

You didn't but I am afraid that the above post of mine will apply here.

Also this response of awaclus screams scum. Awaclus when town doesn't go into this trouble

Why not?  I would think Awaclus scum doesn't go into this trouble.

Awaclus as scum tends to explain his thinking a lot more than as town.

And he hasn't been doing that this entire game.

[Witherweaver]

Mislynching one of us today is very bad, because we have a pretty tough MyLo tomorrow.  And if it ends up not being SS/Chairs we have another one the next day.

We should be most careful today.

We should be analyzing teams, too.  There are not too many cases.

[yuma]

Pointlessness begats pointlessness

I would appreciate it if you could forget that I'm me for a moment and approach this objectively instead of assuming that everything I say is pointless simply because it's being said by me. There's no way in hell that silverspawn's case on me, the vast majority of which is just OMGUS, should be more credible than me actually pointing out the blatant lack of town narrative from the masons and the manipulation techniques silverspawn is using now.

If you aren't scum I will certainly reassess, I assure you.

No wait, are you just saying that until I flip town, you will continue to prioritize your personal bias against me over trying your best to actually win the game? Jesus fuck man.

No that isn't what I am saying. Screw you.

[Roadrunner7671]

And I'm just going to say that we shouldn't forget about the Golden Rule.

[yuma]

Mislynching one of us today is very bad, because we have a pretty tough MyLo tomorrow.  And if it ends up not being SS/Chairs we have another one the next day.

We should be most careful today.

We should be analyzing teams, too.  There are not too many cases.

Every team doesn't make sense except with awaclus. Except for chairs SS. I have considered that myself regardless of what ever rigamole awaclus tries to spin. If I am wrong there then I will strongly consider SS chairs, but right now I prefer to lynch away and no one else makes sense as partners that doesn't have awaclus in that partnership.

[2.71828.....]

And.....nothing had changed.

Vote Count 3.4

Awaclus (3): yuma, silverspawn, chairs (L-1)
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Roadrunner7671 (1): Witherweaver

Not Voting (2): Axxle, Roadrunner7671

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day 3 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 3 will be Monday, March 21 at 11:45 AM forum time.

[Awaclus]

Every team doesn't make sense except with awaclus. Except for chairs SS. I have considered that myself regardless of what ever rigamole awaclus tries to spin. If I am wrong there then I will strongly consider SS chairs, but right now I prefer to lynch away and no one else makes sense as partners that doesn't have awaclus in that partnership.

What sense does me/WW, me/RR or me/you make?

[Witherweaver]

Mislynching one of us today is very bad, because we have a pretty tough MyLo tomorrow.  And if it ends up not being SS/Chairs we have another one the next day.

We should be most careful today.

We should be analyzing teams, too.  There are not too many cases.

Every team doesn't make sense except with awaclus. Except for chairs SS. I have considered that myself regardless of what ever rigamole awaclus tries to spin. If I am wrong there then I will strongly consider SS chairs, but right now I prefer to lynch away and no one else makes sense as partners that doesn't have awaclus in that partnership.

I'm not convinced it can't be you/RR.  And if Awaclus is a mislynch I have to worry about you/RR vs. SS/Chairs tomorrow, which is not a fun scenario.

Oh, actually I guess that's not true, because they have to kill somebody.

[yuma]

Every team doesn't make sense except with awaclus. Except for chairs SS. I have considered that myself regardless of what ever rigamole awaclus tries to spin. If I am wrong there then I will strongly consider SS chairs, but right now I prefer to lynch away and no one else makes sense as partners that doesn't have awaclus in that partnership.

What sense does me/WW, me/RR or me/you make?

Given WW's and RR's reluctance to pursue your lynch right now and putting on the brakes toward it... plenty, (except for me/you... obviously). But that would only be part of it.

I have laid this out already.

PPE:

no you will have to worry and so will I if awaclus is a mislynch cause they will probably kill Axxle...

[Witherweaver]

Why is Axxle an IC?

[Witherweaver]

Oh, he claimed Vig.

[Witherweaver]

So Axxle shooting can confirm Masons.

[Roadrunner7671]

Why is Axxle an IC?

2 kills in one night=vig
Axxel claimed vig.
Axxel is vig.
Ppe

[Roadrunner7671]

So Axxle shooting can confirm Masons.

He claimed 1-shot right?

[Witherweaver]

Oh, or it could lose us the game.

[yuma]

I'm not convinced it can't be you/RR.

I get what you are saying. I feel similar about you/RR. But when I look at your interactions with ADK compared to awaclus or RR's interactions compared to awaclus I can't be compelled to vote either of them over him. I think if you looked at my interactions with ADK you would fill the same.

[Roadrunner7671]

By the way, does anyone else find it scummy that WW keeps repeating over and over 'I'm town,' 'I'm town,' 'I'm town?'

I mean, he's not saying that over and over. But he's acting like everyone should think he's an IC.
ppe 2

[yuma]

So Axxle shooting can confirm Masons.

He claimed 1-shot right?

It is possible he is lying... But we shouldn't count on it...

PPE: And yeah, the game losing thing is bad too...

[yuma]

By the way, does anyone else find it scummy that WW keeps repeating over and over 'I'm town,' 'I'm town,' 'I'm town?'

I mean, he's not saying that over and over. But he's acting like everyone should think he's an IC.
ppe 2

You will have to point those out to me, cause I don't remember seeing that...

[Witherweaver]

By the way, does anyone else find it scummy that WW keeps repeating over and over 'I'm town,' 'I'm town,' 'I'm town?'

I mean, he's not saying that over and over. But he's acting like everyone should think he's an IC.
ppe 2

I'm pretty sure I had a quote about this.....

[Awaclus]

I'm not convinced it can't be you/RR.

I get what you are saying. I feel similar about you/RR. But when I look at your interactions with ADK compared to awaclus or RR's interactions compared to awaclus I can't be compelled to vote either of them over him. I think if you looked at my interactions with ADK you would fill the same.

Well, sorry for being asleep when everyone, including ADK himself, decided that it would be a good idea to quicklynch out of the blue.

[Roadrunner7671]

By the way, does anyone else find it scummy that WW keeps repeating over and over 'I'm town,' 'I'm town,' 'I'm town?'

I mean, he's not saying that over and over. But he's acting like everyone should think he's an IC.
ppe 2

You will have to point those out to me, cause I don't remember seeing that...

I'm on a phone so that'll wait.

But it's always him matching up potential scum partners in a way where it feels really self conscious and awkward to point out that he could be scum, too.
Ppe

[yuma]

I'm not convinced it can't be you/RR.

I get what you are saying. I feel similar about you/RR. But when I look at your interactions with ADK compared to awaclus or RR's interactions compared to awaclus I can't be compelled to vote either of them over him. I think if you looked at my interactions with ADK you would fill the same.

Well, sorry for being asleep when everyone, including ADK himself, decided that it would be a good idea to quicklynch out of the blue.

I get that. But your lack of interaction doesn't cancel out their interactions. It isn't that your actions are super scummy. It is that their actions were much more townie (same goes for chairs on the masons side). So... yeah... through no fault of your own you are the one that doesn't have townie interactions with confirmed scum. But those things happened with the other players while you were asleep. But just cause you were asleep doesn't mean they didn't happen...

[yuma]

By the way, does anyone else find it scummy that WW keeps repeating over and over 'I'm town,' 'I'm town,' 'I'm town?'

I mean, he's not saying that over and over. But he's acting like everyone should think he's an IC.
ppe 2

You will have to point those out to me, cause I don't remember seeing that...

I'm on a phone so that'll wait.

But it's always him matching up potential scum partners in a way where it feels really self conscious and awkward to point out that he could be scum, too.
Ppe

I'll wait to see final judgement... But meh. He is under no obligation to show that he might also be partners for sake of completeness.

[yuma]

And really... the other thing that has me feeling scummy on Awaclus is the way he has tried to switch gears from focusing on me as scum to ss once he saw that others weren't going for it. It felt abrupt and inauthentic.

[Awaclus]

And really... the other thing that has me feeling scummy on Awaclus is the way he has tried to switch gears from focusing on me as scum to ss once he saw that others weren't going for it. It felt abrupt and inauthentic.

Well, it wasn't possible for both you and silverspawn to be scum. Either way, I'm completely bewildered as to how this game makes any sense at all with the both of you playing the way you are, but this option makes at least just the tiniest bits of sense.

[yuma]

Legitimate question. How many others thought that ss was very likely a power role going into last night?

[Roadrunner7671]

Legitimate question. How many others thought that ss was very likely a power role going into last night?

"Not I" said the roadrunner.

[Awaclus]

Legitimate question. How many others thought that ss was very likely a power role going into last night?

I don't usually pay a lot of attention to things like that unless there's a particular reason so no.

[Awaclus]

I get that. But your lack of interaction doesn't cancel out their interactions. It isn't that your actions are super scummy. It is that their actions were much more townie (same goes for chairs on the masons side). So... yeah... through no fault of your own you are the one that doesn't have townie interactions with confirmed scum. But those things happened with the other players while you were asleep. But just cause you were asleep doesn't mean they didn't happen...

Yeah, but had I been awake, scum!me would certainly have had them too.

[yuma]

I get that. But your lack of interaction doesn't cancel out their interactions. It isn't that your actions are super scummy. It is that their actions were much more townie (same goes for chairs on the masons side). So... yeah... through no fault of your own you are the one that doesn't have townie interactions with confirmed scum. But those things happened with the other players while you were asleep. But just cause you were asleep doesn't mean they didn't happen...

Yeah, but had I been awake, scum!me would certainly have had them too.

That is hypothetical, contingent upon an if/then statement. I prefer to rely on what actually happened as opposed to what could have happened. Surely you can see why one is preferable over the other.

[Witherweaver]

Legitimate question. How many others thought that ss was very likely a power role going into last night?

I thought he was 100% scum.

[yuma]

Legitimate question. How many others thought that ss was very likely a power role going into last night?

I thought he was 100% scum.

Ok. I've heard from the people that I want to... although I am not sure how reliable the answers are.

these posts from ss made me think yesterday that he was either a PR or scum pretending to be a PR. As such I was surprised when he wasn't NKed... same goes for axxle to an extent (not because of PR hints, but because he was early on wagon and is a dangerous scum hunter in general) and I couldn't figure out why Hydrad was the kill...

does it help if I guarantee you that you are not lynching me today?

if we want a counter wagon:

vote: ss

is the way to go

given that tomorrow none of you will vote for me, the fact that I didn't hammer gkrieg makes me confirmed town for today. please.

If ss is town, and if mafia was paying any attention they should have noticed these posts... and probably would have killed ss.

But given that three people have responded (ww, awaclus and rr... chairs and ss don't matter and axxle is IC so can't be scum) and at least one of them must be town that they didn't notice the PR hints I think my point has less validity...

If I were scum last night and saw ss post those posts (and I did because I pointed them out) he would have been my night kill and if not him then Axxle. So I don't really get the Hydrad kill. But mostly I thought this might implicate ss, but I am not so sure that it does now...

[chairs]

I have to say,  I really didn't understand the hydrad kill.

[Awaclus]

That is hypothetical, contingent upon an if/then statement. I prefer to rely on what actually happened as opposed to what could have happened. Surely you can see why one is preferable over the other.

By voting me, you are relying on what could have happened (i.e. that it is possible that I wouldn't have had towny interactions with ADK if I had not been asleep). Instead you could rely on how silverspawn (and chairs by extension) being a mason doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because that is something that actually did happen.

[Roadrunner7671]

I have to say,  I really didn't understand the hydrad kill.

I probably would've killed Axxel, but I can sorta see where scum was coming from.

Hydrad's ADK interactions were on point (so were mine, yay!) and Hydrad is better than me, so I guess they figured they'd kill him because he was so towny?

Or maybe they thought he was acting like a PR.

Or maybe they had it out for him!

[yuma]

That is hypothetical, contingent upon an if/then statement. I prefer to rely on what actually happened as opposed to what could have happened. Surely you can see why one is preferable over the other.

By voting me, you are relying on what could have happened (i.e. that it is possible that I wouldn't have had towny interactions with ADK if I had not been asleep). Instead you could rely on how silverspawn (and chairs by extension) being a mason doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because that is something that actually did happen.

But chairs has an interaction with ADK that did happen. And by virtue of the claim that is tried to ss (who frankly didn't have an interaction). So thereby you are the sole player without a townier interaction... perhaps to no fault of your own regardless of alignment. But again, your lack of interaciton doesn't erase the other players'. I think it would be reckless to ignore those interactions with confirmed scum compared to a hypothetical (that I admit has some credibility in regard to ss/chairs). Thus I think we should lynch you first.

[Awaclus]

But chairs has an interaction with ADK that did happen. And by virtue of the claim that is tried to ss (who frankly didn't have an interaction). So thereby you are the sole player without a townier interaction... perhaps to no fault of your own regardless of alignment. But again, your lack of interaciton doesn't erase the other players'. I think it would be reckless to ignore those interactions with confirmed scum compared to a hypothetical (that I admit has some credibility in regard to ss/chairs). Thus I think we should lynch you first.

Lynching me first would be fine, but I don't think f.ds has a very good record of actually listening to what dead townies had to say. Given the resistance to lynch silver or chairs today, I don't think that it's really going to help the situation a lot if the biggest supporter for their lynch is dead. However, if the masons are somehow town, then their flip is actually quite beneficial for the POE tomorrow.

I'm personally pretty much willing to bet the game on the masons being scum because otherwise this game would rank extremely uncomfortably high on the list of the most nonsensical things I have ever experienced, so I'm totally fine with it even if that means you lynch me tomorrow if silverspawn flips town today. Because I super don't think it's going to happen.

[yuma]

But chairs has an interaction with ADK that did happen. And by virtue of the claim that is tried to ss (who frankly didn't have an interaction). So thereby you are the sole player without a townier interaction... perhaps to no fault of your own regardless of alignment. But again, your lack of interaciton doesn't erase the other players'. I think it would be reckless to ignore those interactions with confirmed scum compared to a hypothetical (that I admit has some credibility in regard to ss/chairs). Thus I think we should lynch you first.

Lynching me first would be fine, but I don't think f.ds has a very good record of actually listening to what dead townies had to say. Given the resistance to lynch silver or chairs today, I don't think that it's really going to help the situation a lot if the biggest supporter for their lynch is dead. However, if the masons are somehow town, then their flip is actually quite beneficial for the POE tomorrow.

I'm personally pretty much willing to bet the game on the masons being scum because otherwise this game would rank extremely uncomfortably high on the list of the most nonsensical things I have ever experienced, so I'm totally fine with it even if that means you lynch me tomorrow if silverspawn flips town today. Because I super don't think it's going to happen.

Look. If you are town, I can't guarantee that I will automatically push to lynch the masons. I can't guarantee that and I think given what you have stated on not wanting to tell mafia what your plan is going into night you will understand that.

But if you are town I can guarantee that I will consider ss/chairs strongly. I mean, I think I have already considered them strongly, but will certainly reassess. I honestly don't know what i will do, but I will think critically about it.

And if you are town you shouldn't be fine with being lynched if ss flips town (I wouldn't be). I think you are just saying that...

[chairs]

If you lynch ss or myself today, then the other is NK'd tonight (or axxle is) and you're at 5p lylo with 1 IC (axxle/remaining mason).

If we must lynch a mason, I would rather we lynch me, as I think out of the 3 potential people we could go into D4 with as an IC, I'm the weakest of them. That being said, I'd rather we lynch outside the (axxle, chairs, silverspawn) pool entirely, as I know we aren't hitting scum in that pool.

[Awaclus]

Look. If you are town, I can't guarantee that I will automatically push to lynch the masons. I can't guarantee that and I think given what you have stated on not wanting to tell mafia what your plan is going into night you will understand that.

But if you are town I can guarantee that I will consider ss/chairs strongly. I mean, I think I have already considered them strongly, but will certainly reassess. I honestly don't know what i will do, but I will think critically about it.

And if you are town you shouldn't be fine with being lynched if ss flips town (I wouldn't be). I think you are just saying that...

I mean, if ss does flip town, then of course I'm going to fight my lynch tomorrow, no matter how inevitable it might be. I'm just saying that I'm making the argument that a mason flipping town makes for better POE tomorrow just in an attempt to consider your perspective; from my perspective, that's not so great because it would probably implicate me given how hard I've pushed the ss lynch and then it would mean that we lose the game. I'm just already willing to take the risk that silverspawn flips town, followed by me getting mislynched as well, because I don't really see that being a very likely situation.

[yuma]

So Axxle's official VLA ended on Friday so hopefully he will be around soonish to discuss.

But based off his previous comment I think he is of the same opinion that lynching ss/chairs today isn't a great idea. But I am not sure what he thinks of lynching out of the other subset of players...

[yuma]

Look. If you are town, I can't guarantee that I will automatically push to lynch the masons. I can't guarantee that and I think given what you have stated on not wanting to tell mafia what your plan is going into night you will understand that.

But if you are town I can guarantee that I will consider ss/chairs strongly. I mean, I think I have already considered them strongly, but will certainly reassess. I honestly don't know what i will do, but I will think critically about it.

And if you are town you shouldn't be fine with being lynched if ss flips town (I wouldn't be). I think you are just saying that...

I mean, if ss does flip town, then of course I'm going to fight my lynch tomorrow, no matter how inevitable it might be. I'm just saying that I'm making the argument that a mason flipping town makes for better POE tomorrow just in an attempt to consider your perspective; from my perspective, that's not so great because it would probably implicate me given how hard I've pushed the ss lynch and then it would mean that we lose the game. I'm just already willing to take the risk that silverspawn flips town, followed by me getting mislynched as well, because I don't really see that being a very likely situation.

gotcha

[Witherweaver]

That is hypothetical, contingent upon an if/then statement. I prefer to rely on what actually happened as opposed to what could have happened. Surely you can see why one is preferable over the other.

By voting me, you are relying on what could have happened (i.e. that it is possible that I wouldn't have had towny interactions with ADK if I had not been asleep). Instead you could rely on how silverspawn (and chairs by extension) being a mason doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because that is something that actually did happen.

But chairs has an interaction with ADK that did happen. And by virtue of the claim that is tried to ss (who frankly didn't have an interaction). So thereby you are the sole player without a townier interaction... perhaps to no fault of your own regardless of alignment. But again, your lack of interaciton doesn't erase the other players'. I think it would be reckless to ignore those interactions with confirmed scum compared to a hypothetical (that I admit has some credibility in regard to ss/chairs). Thus I think we should lynch you first.

What was the Chairs/ADK one?

[yuma]

That is hypothetical, contingent upon an if/then statement. I prefer to rely on what actually happened as opposed to what could have happened. Surely you can see why one is preferable over the other.

By voting me, you are relying on what could have happened (i.e. that it is possible that I wouldn't have had towny interactions with ADK if I had not been asleep). Instead you could rely on how silverspawn (and chairs by extension) being a mason doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because that is something that actually did happen.

But chairs has an interaction with ADK that did happen. And by virtue of the claim that is tried to ss (who frankly didn't have an interaction). So thereby you are the sole player without a townier interaction... perhaps to no fault of your own regardless of alignment. But again, your lack of interaciton doesn't erase the other players'. I think it would be reckless to ignore those interactions with confirmed scum compared to a hypothetical (that I admit has some credibility in regard to ss/chairs). Thus I think we should lynch you first.

What was the Chairs/ADK one?

I will admit there wasn't a lot. But chairs was on the ADK wagon. I think that counts for something.

vote: adk.

I... think that might be L-2?

I've lost track.

[Witherweaver]

Well, it doesn't sound a whole lot like how a partner gets on a wagon.

[Roadrunner7671]

I was doing some thinking about this game: what happens if Axxel gets modkilled?

Do we have a failsafe or are we in trouble?

[Axxle]

Sorry, been exhausted after the vla, should be able to get to this by the evening if not sooner.

[Roadrunner7671]

Sorry, been exhausted after the vla, should be able to get to this by the evening if not sooner.

Okay, at least you posted and won't get prodded again.

[2.71828.....]

Uh, yeah. So I just realized what I did....Axxle was prodded his second time though. A little bit ago....

[Axxle]

Lynching a mason without a universal backup claim is *pretty* darn silly.

I don't think the UB should claim.

What I was trying to say is that if there is no UB, there *has* to be masons.

[chairs]

Lynching a mason without a universal backup claim is *pretty* darn silly.

I don't think the UB should claim.

What I was trying to say is that if there is no UB, there *has* to be masons.

ERGO:

masons are ICs, sans UB claim.

[yuma]

Lynching a mason without a universal backup claim is *pretty* darn silly.

I don't think the UB should claim.

What I was trying to say is that if there is no UB, there *has* to be masons.

You just blew my mind. How did I not figure that out already...?

[yuma]

So those of us that haven't claimed should claim whether we are the UB or not, yes?

[Axxle]

Also can we stop the meta of PRs acting scummy to avoid NKs? That hurts day play considerably.

[Roadrunner7671]

So those of us that haven't claimed should claim whether we are the UB or not, yes?

I suppose I'm up for that.

I don't know if it's the best thing ever, but I can be agreeable on occasion.
PPE

[silverspawn]

Yeesh, that's true. I very much hope that you would not have lynched us otherwise.

[Roadrunner7671]

So If Chairs, WW and Awaclus agree, we think he/she should claim?

Or is the IC's consent enough?

[silverspawn]

So those of us that haven't claimed should claim whether we are the UB or not, yes?

Actually no, he should not claim until tomorrow, since lynching us today is bad anyway; but at this point we might aswell.

[Roadrunner7671]

So those of us that haven't claimed should claim whether we are the UB or not, yes?

Actually no, he should not claim until tomorrow, since lynching us today is bad anyway; but at this point we might aswell.

We might as well lynch you guys?

What?

[chairs]

So those of us that haven't claimed should claim whether we are the UB or not, yes?

Actually no, he should not claim until tomorrow, since lynching us today is bad anyway; but at this point we might aswell.

We might as well lynch you guys?

What?

We might as well claim UB if one exists, is I think the suggestion SS is making.

[silverspawn]

So those of us that haven't claimed should claim whether we are the UB or not, yes?

Actually no, he should not claim until tomorrow, since lynching us today is bad anyway; but at this point we might aswell.

We might as well lynch you guys?

What?

We might as well claim UB if one exists, is I think the suggestion SS is making.

yes

[Axxle]

Legitimate question. How many others thought that ss was very likely a power role going into last night?

He was super obvious mason, imo

[Awaclus]

I will admit there wasn't a lot. But chairs was on the ADK wagon. I think that counts for something.

Well, just being on a wagon isn't super hard. He didn't push for the lynch or anything. It does count for something, but you can't ignore all the reasons to think that the masons are scum just because he was on wagon.

Well, it doesn't sound a whole lot like how a partner gets on a wagon.

What does a partner getting on a wagon sound like?

I was doing some thinking about this game: what happens if Axxel gets modkilled?

Do we have a failsafe or are we in trouble?

We can afford up to 2 town deaths before we need to lynch scum. Axxle getting modkilled would be super bad for town, but winnable as long as we no lynch today and then lynch correctly.

PPE: Yeah, I think that UB claiming is good. It would make things a lot easier at this point.

[yuma]

Yeah. Ok. I think I prefer claiming UB today because of the chance that we get to tomorrow and have to decide between a UB claim then in mylo. Better, if mafia is going to have to fake claim, that it gets forced right now.

We would risk chance of the UB being night killed but with the possible strongman floating around it isn't that powerful anyways.

[yuma]

I see your pint about chairs but when I compare to the complete dearth from awaclus I can't ignore it.

[yuma]

Well I will claim not UB

[Roadrunner7671]

I am the Universal Backup.

[yuma]

I am the Universal Backup.

What role are you now?

[Roadrunner7671]

I am the Universal Backup.

What role are you now?

A Roleblocker (not one shot or anything).

[yuma]

Well you passed my stupid test...

Unvote for now. Need to reasses. Have company over, be back later

[Roadrunner7671]

So now we can do theory talk about what type of Strongman scum has, right?

And if/when we hit scum, we can determine whether or not I'm actually the UB, right?

[Awaclus]

So now we can do theory talk about what type of Strongman scum has, right?

And if/when we hit scum, we can determine whether or not I'm actually the UB, right?

Shouldn't you already know whether or not you're actually the UB?

[Roadrunner7671]

Now that the cat's out of the bag, I think I might rather lynch SS or chairs. And as noble of chairs as it is to volunteer, aren't we going after the Masons because SS has been soooooooooo scummy? That's why I am. Chairs is nullish.
PPE

[Roadrunner7671]

So now we can do theory talk about what type of Strongman scum has, right?

And if/when we hit scum, we can determine whether or not I'm actually the UB, right?

Shouldn't you already know whether or not you're actually the UB?

By we, I mean the town. I'm saying that my claim will be verified.

But I forgot about the Godfather, so we might hit the Godfather and the town would still be unsure whether or not I'm telling the truth.

[Axxle]

if we want a counter wagon:

vote: ss

is the way to go

given that tomorrow none of you will vote for me, the fact that I didn't hammer gkrieg makes me confirmed town for today. please.

It's not like ss has been super subtle about being a PR, for the record.

[Axxle]

If rr is telling the truth about being a UB he should target one of the masons tonight.  Either one of them is only a one shot strongman or we have a full strongman outside of them who it'll be useless to roleblock.

[Axxle]

If ss and chairs aren't scum they'd know if it's safe to fakeclaim UB or not depending on if they have a strongman or one shot strongman, so I'm not treating rr as an IC just yet.

[Axxle]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

I thought you might get killed. Your reads are right 80% of the time (apparently) and you seem townish to me.

So did I! Which is why I've been trying to figure out the Faust kill. Are my other reads just wrong day 1? We're faust's too dangerous?

And if this is the real reason you are questioning this then I am going to give even less credibility to anything that you find

Also I have to say Axxle not getting NKed is highly suspicious.

What changed?

[silverspawn]

oh uh... that's... er...

Let me look what that means for our Setup.

It's now MMMRVT, right?

As supposed to MRVTTT

Let's do some maths. Let's compare a priori probabilities.

P(M)ł * P(R) * P(V) * P(T) / P(M) * P(R) * P(V) * P(T)ł

=

P(M)˛ / P(T)˛ = 1/100 / 1/4 = 4/100 = 1/25

Yeah... he's lying. Scum team is RR/Awaclus.

[Roadrunner7671]

Who here remembers X-Shots? What was the chance of Egor being the second (or was it third?) Roleblocker?

[Roadrunner7671]

And someone should check SS's math. He might've pulled a fast one 

[silverspawn]

Low.

Who here remembers the previous three times that we lynched based on math and won every time?

[Roadrunner7671]

Low.

Who here remembers the previous three times that we lynched based on math and won every time?

In X-Shots y'all should've lynched based on math (I'm still salty).

[yuma]

Also we should probably figure out why Faust was targeted.

Really?

It helps. Like even though he was pretty damn town I think there are some players who would have rather shot someone else (like I think you would)

I thought you might get killed. Your reads are right 80% of the time (apparently) and you seem townish to me.

So did I! Which is why I've been trying to figure out the Faust kill. Are my other reads just wrong day 1? We're faust's too dangerous?

And if this is the real reason you are questioning this then I am going to give even less credibility to anything that you find

Also I have to say Axxle not getting NKed is highly suspicious.

What changed?

Back. I find you and Faust to be on the same level of kill ability. Hydrad did not. That is what changed, it was a weird kill. Faust wasnt at all...

[silverspawn]

And the time that we- or better you, whoever was in that game with ash- did not lynch based on maths and lost?

But we can lynch Awaclus now and have this discussion tomorrow...

[silverspawn]

that mason fakeclaim game. I think I modded that.

[Roadrunner7671]

Now that the cat's out of the bag, I think I might rather lynch SS or chairs. And as noble of chairs as it is to volunteer, aren't we going after the Masons because SS has been soooooooooo scummy? That's why I am. Chairs is nullish.
PPE

And the time that we- or better you, whoever was in that game with ash- did not lynch based on maths and lost?

But we can lynch Awaclus now and have this discussion tomorrow...

[silverspawn]

If there's one thing that frustrates me then it's other people not responding to logic, especially when it's simple.

The math thing is 1 to 24. I would lynch RR without a second thought, but sure there's a possibility yada yada let's discuss it tomorrow.

The mason thing is not probabilistic. In the scum!mason narrative, lynching masons wins 100% if you do it tomorrow! LYNCH EVERYONE WHO REFUSES TO UNDERSTAND THAT!

[silverspawn]

the good news is that the two people who are refusing to understand it are Awaclus and RR who're probably the two scum, so hurray everyone is sane.

[Roadrunner7671]

the good news is that the two people who are refusing to understand it are Awaclus and RR who're probably the two scum, so hurray everyone is sane.

I understand your 'lynch us tomorrow' thing.

But couldn't Awaclus pull the same thing?

[silverspawn]

I understand your 'lynch us tomorrow' thing.

Great! So our lynch is off the table. Fantastic.

But couldn't Awaclus pull the same thing?

I don't know what you mean.

[Roadrunner7671]

I understand your 'lynch us tomorrow' thing.

Great! So our lynch is off the table. Fantastic.

But couldn't Awaclus pull the same thing?

I don't know what you mean.

'Just lynch me tomorrow guys! What's the harm?'
-Awaclus

[silverspawn]

'Just lynch me tomorrow guys! What's the harm?'
-Awaclus

Well the harm is that we could lose to his partner.

The reason why the argument works for the masons is that, if you lynch one and he flips scum, you know who the other is. That's why it's a safe bet. If you lynch me and I flip scum, then you know the other scum is chairs. You lynch him the day after, you win. Setup is not closed, so there are no risks.

With Awaclus, you wait until tomorrow to lynch him, then you end up at 3 player LyLo with an unknown scum. Not at all a safe bet.

[silverspawn]

Of course, to minimize the risk of not hitting scum today, we should lynch you instad of Awaclus. Didn't someone want to do that anyway? vote: RR

[Roadrunner7671]

Of course, to minimize the risk of not hitting scum today, we should lynch you instad of Awaclus. Didn't someone want to do that anyway? vote: RR

Why don't you do the math and see how likely our current setup is but replace the UB with a VT.
I think you'll find that everything in this setup is very unlikely.

[yuma]

Of course, to minimize the risk of not hitting scum today, we should lynch you instad of Awaclus. Didn't someone want to do that anyway? vote: RR

Why don't you do the math and see how likely our current setup is but replace the UB with a VT.
I think you'll find that everything in this setup is very unlikely.

So you are asking us to compare a scenario where there is BVMMM compared to BVM. Those two extra Ms are pretty significant so 1/10 each time compared to a 5/10 for a T each time.

[Awaclus]

The mason thing is not probabilistic. In the scum!mason narrative, lynching masons wins 100% if you do it tomorrow! LYNCH EVERYONE WHO REFUSES TO UNDERSTAND THAT!

You can't compare lynching today and lynching tomorrow. You have to compare lynching today and not lynching today. The former results in 100% win, the latter results in 5p LyLo with no ICs. LYNCH EVERYONE WHO REFUSES TO UNDERSTAND THAT!

[yuma]

So mostly I am trying to figure out what is optimal here... mostly trying to work out scenarios...

- If RR is UB and chairs/ss are mafia
--lynch RR, flips UB. have to decide to lynch chairs/ss against non claimants
--lynch ss, confirms RR as UB, confirms chairs as mafia

- If RR is mafia and chairs/ss are mason
--lynch RR, flips mafia, confirms chairs/ss, find other mafia team member
--lynch ss, confirms chairs as mason have to decide whether RR is mafia or non claimants

- If RR is UB and chairs/ss are masons
--lynch RR, flips UB. have to decide to lynch chairs/ss against non claimants
--lynch ss, confirms chairs as mason, have to decide whether RR is mafia or non claimants

right now it looks to me like the better option is to lynch RR now. if he is town there is a strong likelihood that chairs/ss are mafia mathematically but not guaranteed... I think...

[Witherweaver]

I don't believe RR.

Why wait to bring this up until now?

[yuma]

vote: RR

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't believe RR.

Why wait to bring this up until now?

I didn't want to get night killed.

I'd prefer you guys to not lynch me in order to help you find scum or whatever.
Ppe

[yuma]

hasn't been a vote count in a while... so L-1

[silverspawn]

actually my math was not correct because I was ignoring permutations. Of the last three letters we have to compare the odds of 2 M and 1 T vs 3 T, but the 2 M 1 T can come as MMT, MTM, or TMM, so it's

P(MMT) + P(MTM) + P(TMM) / P(TTT) = 3*P(TMM) / P(TTT) = 3*P(MM)/P(TT) = 3/25.

So that's 12% rather than 4%.

Anyway. Whatever. I know the rest of the players don't really care much about it anyway, and I'm fine with either RR or Awaclus. I let you decide.

[Roadrunner7671]

So I think I'm going down. I'm not sure whether or not I want input on whether or not we lynch SS/Chairs, but I'd probably go for them.

If you guys choose to not go for them, I'd lynch in the Awaclus/Yuma area before WW.
Ppe 2

[Roadrunner7671]

actually my math was not correct because I was ignoring permutations. Of the last three letters we have to compare the odds of 2 M and 1 T vs 3 T, but the 2 M 1 T can come as MMT, MTM, or TMM, so it's

P(MMT) + P(MTM) + P(TMM) / P(TTT) = 3*P(TMM) / P(TTT) = 3*P(MM)/P(TT) = 3/25.

So that's 12% rather than 4%.

Anyway. Whatever. I know the rest of the players don't really care much about it anyway, and I'm fine with either RR or Awaclus. I let you decide.

I care. That's a big deal.

[silverspawn]

Unofficial Vote Count:

Roadrunner7671 (3): Witherweaver, silverspawn, yuma
Awaclus (1): chairs
silverspawn (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (2): Axxle, Roadrunner7671

looks like L-1

[Roadrunner7671]

Looks bad for me. I was towny before I claimed. Everyone told me the UB should claim. I didn't think they should. I guess this is why.

[silverspawn]

actually let's unvote and see what the two other IC's decide. I don't like that WW and yuma are on this wagon

[Roadrunner7671]

actually let's unvote and see what the two other IC's decide. I don't like that WW and yuma are on this wagon

Yay, I guess. But man, if you guys were going to kill your UB as soon as he claimed, you shoulda said so.

[yuma]

actually let's unvote and see what the two other IC's decide. I don't like that WW and yuma are on this wagon

You should only be worried in the 12% scenario of which you spoke about earlier... so you can't be that worried...

[silverspawn]

One thing to note is that RR could have hammered Awaclus the entire time. Understandable hesitance if it's an RR/Awaclus team, but if not, then why wait and now claim UB?

Also we could maybe examine the claim in a bit more detail.

For example, RR hasn't even claimed his targets yet. You inherited a RB, who did you target?

[silverspawn]

You should only be worried in the 12% scenario of which you spoke about earlier... so you can't be that worried...

I know, but we already dragged it out for days, we can at least take a few more minutes.

[yuma]

You should only be worried in the 12% scenario of which you spoke about earlier... so you can't be that worried...

I know, but we already dragged it out for days, we can at least take a few more minutes.

Hey it is your mason/buddy or the IC that would hammer, so I guess I am not that concerned... I am making a semi-quick decision partially because last time in this setup I let myself talk myself into doing something stupid.

[Awaclus]

One thing to note is that RR could have hammered Awaclus the entire time.

Why would he do that if he doesn't think I'm scum (like he shouldn't)?

[silverspawn]

You should only be worried in the 12% scenario of which you spoke about earlier... so you can't be that worried...

I know, but we already dragged it out for days, we can at least take a few more minutes.

Hey it is your mason/buddy or the IC that would hammer, so I guess I am not that concerned... I am making a semi-quick decision partially because last time in this setup I let myself talk myself into doing something stupid.

couldn't Awaclus also have hammered?

[silverspawn]

One thing to note is that RR could have hammered Awaclus the entire time.

Why would he do that if he doesn't think I'm scum (like he shouldn't)?

He did think you are scum. He stated that he just wanted to wait for Axxle.

[yuma]

You should only be worried in the 12% scenario of which you spoke about earlier... so you can't be that worried...

I know, but we already dragged it out for days, we can at least take a few more minutes.

Hey it is your mason/buddy or the IC that would hammer, so I guess I am not that concerned... I am making a semi-quick decision partially because last time in this setup I let myself talk myself into doing something stupid.

couldn't Awaclus also have hammered?

sure... I guess... but he has been staunchly advocating your lynch. I think him voting RR would cause some sort of a black hole to collapse upon the forum and we would never play mafia here again...

[Roadrunner7671]

One thing to note is that RR could have hammered Awaclus the entire time.

I could not be more tired of explaining this: We were waiting for Axxel.
Ppe

[Awaclus]

Yeah, well, RR can't be scum if the masons are scum. And the masons are scum.

[Roadrunner7671]

For example, RR hasn't even claimed his targets yet. You inherited a RB, who did you target?

This is insulting.
Ppe

[silverspawn]

One thing to note is that RR could have hammered Awaclus the entire time.

I could not be more tired of explaining this: We were waiting for Axxel.
Ppe

I meant the argument in your favor. Why would scum!you not have hammered?

But claim your targets please. It's more convincing if you don't take too much time for that.

[Roadrunner7671]

One thing to note is that RR could have hammered Awaclus the entire time.

I could not be more tired of explaining this: We were waiting for Axxel.
Ppe

I meant the argument in your favor. Why would scum!you not have hammered?

But claim your targets please. It's more convincing if you don't take too much time for that.

For example, RR hasn't even claimed his targets yet. You inherited a RB, who did you target?

This is insulting.
Ppe

[silverspawn]

It's insulting to ask you to claim your targets? Or do you just need more time to come up with answers?

[Roadrunner7671]

It's insulting to ask you to claim your targets? Or do you just need more time to come up with answers?

At this point I think it's for my wincon to flip. It's okay to think I'm scum, but this is sort of degrading.

[yuma]

It's insulting to ask you to claim your targets? Or do you just need more time to come up with answers?

At this point I think it's for my wincon to flip. It's okay to think I'm scum, but this is sort of degrading.

it would be helpful if you explained why it was degrading...

[silverspawn]

If you were anyone else, the fact that you would not have come up with targets immediately would be a scum tell. For you I have no idea where you're coming form. If a PR claims, you ask him for his targets. Framing it in a way that implies he's scum is a common way to provoke him. provoking people is good in this game. It gets them emotional. Emotional people do more mistakes.

[Roadrunner7671]

It's insulting to ask you to claim your targets? Or do you just need more time to come up with answers?

At this point I think it's for my wincon to flip. It's okay to think I'm scum, but this is sort of degrading.

it would be helpful if you explained why it was degrading...

Is this a joke?

[Roadrunner7671]

If you were anyone else, the fact that you would not have come up with targets immediately would be a scum tell. For you I have no idea where you're coming form. If a PR claims, you ask him for his targets. Framing it in a way that implies he's scum is a common way to provoke him. provoking people is good in this game. It gets them emotional. Emotional people do more mistakes.

You think this is a joke, too?

[2.71828.....]

hasn't been a vote count in a while...

They even started to accuse the host of mismanagement.  "He can't even keep track of the votes right!"  "He posts stuff in the wrong thread!" 

Vote Count 3.5

Awaclus (1): chairs
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Roadrunner7671 (2): Witherweaver, yuma (L-2)

Not Voting (3): Axxle, Roadrunner7671, silverspawn

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day 3 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 3 will be Monday, March 21 at 11:45 AM forum time.

[silverspawn]

No, we are not joking. Nothing that has been said seems particularly out of line or insulting to yuma or me. Your perception is just different, and it comes as a surprise to both of us.

[Witherweaver]

Low.

Who here remembers the previous three times that we lynched based on math and won every time?

You mean never?

Seriously, you need to stop making these arguments.  This is not how Mafia works.

[Witherweaver]

hasn't been a vote count in a while...

They even started to accuse the host of mismanagement.  "He can't even keep track of the votes right!"  "He posts stuff in the wrong thread!" 

In your defense, Axxle hadn't posted in that thread for days.

[Roadrunner7671]

No, we are not joking. Nothing that has been said seems particularly out of line or insulting to yuma or me. Your perception is just different, and it comes as a surprise to both of us.

So this is just a conspiracy to take cheap shots at RR?

First Yuma's 'stupid test' (not my words) now this?

[Witherweaver]

No, we are not joking. Nothing that has been said seems particularly out of line or insulting to yuma or me. Your perception is just different, and it comes as a surprise to both of us.

So this is just a conspiracy to take cheap shots at RR?

First Yuma's 'stupid test' (not my words) now this?

You may be being presumptuous. 

[Roadrunner7671]

No, we are not joking. Nothing that has been said seems particularly out of line or insulting to yuma or me. Your perception is just different, and it comes as a surprise to both of us.

So this is just a conspiracy to take cheap shots at RR?

First Yuma's 'stupid test' (not my words) now this?

You may be being presumptuous.

That's probable.

But you see what they're doing, right?
Yuma/SS scum team?

[silverspawn]

Low.

Who here remembers the previous three times that we lynched based on math and won every time?

You mean never?

No, I mean the times when math correctly pointed to who was scum. Even with your game *sighs* strong maths has still a great record, empirically. Before your game, it was a flawless one.

[silverspawn]

No, we are not joking. Nothing that has been said seems particularly out of line or insulting to yuma or me. Your perception is just different, and it comes as a surprise to both of us.

So this is just a conspiracy to take cheap shots at RR?

First Yuma's 'stupid test' (not my words) now this?

You may be being presumptuous.

That's probable.

But you see what they're doing, right?

What we are doing is trying to get you to claim your targets.

[Axxle]

Looks bad for me. I was towny before I claimed. Everyone told me the UB should claim. I didn't think they should. I guess this is why.

If I ever said UB should claim it was partially to out a potential fakeclaim.

[Witherweaver]

No, we are not joking. Nothing that has been said seems particularly out of line or insulting to yuma or me. Your perception is just different, and it comes as a surprise to both of us.

So this is just a conspiracy to take cheap shots at RR?

First Yuma's 'stupid test' (not my words) now this?

You may be being presumptuous.

That's probable.

But you see what they're doing, right?
Yuma/SS scum team?

Is that a joke?

[Roadrunner7671]

No, we are not joking. Nothing that has been said seems particularly out of line or insulting to yuma or me. Your perception is just different, and it comes as a surprise to both of us.

So this is just a conspiracy to take cheap shots at RR?

First Yuma's 'stupid test' (not my words) now this?

You may be being presumptuous.

That's probable.

But you see what they're doing, right?

What we are doing is trying to get you to claim your targets.

I'm on the right page. Either you don't think highly of me at all or you are unfamiliar with this setup.
Ppe

[Roadrunner7671]

No, we are not joking. Nothing that has been said seems particularly out of line or insulting to yuma or me. Your perception is just different, and it comes as a surprise to both of us.

So this is just a conspiracy to take cheap shots at RR?

First Yuma's 'stupid test' (not my words) now this?

You may be being presumptuous.

That's probable.

But you see what they're doing, right?
Yuma/SS scum team?

Is that a joke?

Just the bolded part.

[Witherweaver]

Low.

Who here remembers the previous three times that we lynched based on math and won every time?

You mean never?

No, I mean the times when math correctly pointed to who was scum. Even with your game *sighs* strong maths has still a great record, empirically. Before your game, it was a flawless one.

Or a coincidental one.  The problem here is you're ignoring all other aspects of the game.  Those probabilities are not accurate if you take into account all the information you have---how people are playing.

[silverspawn]

Low.

Who here remembers the previous three times that we lynched based on math and won every time?

You mean never?

No, I mean the times when math correctly pointed to who was scum. Even with your game *sighs* strong maths has still a great record, empirically. Before your game, it was a flawless one.

Or a coincidental one.  The problem here is you're ignoring all other aspects of the game.  Those probabilities are not accurate if you take into account all the information you have---how people are playing.

Yes-- because reads are weak compared to this kind of chance. I ignore the rest because I acknowledge that I'm not that good at the game.

If the math said 60/40, then we could talk about weighing it against reads n stuff.

[silverspawn]

No, we are not joking. Nothing that has been said seems particularly out of line or insulting to yuma or me. Your perception is just different, and it comes as a surprise to both of us.

So this is just a conspiracy to take cheap shots at RR?

First Yuma's 'stupid test' (not my words) now this?

You may be being presumptuous.

That's probable.

But you see what they're doing, right?
Yuma/SS scum team?

Is that a joke?

Just the bolded part.

It can't be yuma and me. I'm bounded to chairs. Either we are both scum or both town. Spoiler: we are both town.

[Roadrunner7671]

Silverspawn, I have two questions:
1. Are you on the right page?
2. Are you on my page?
Ppe

[Axxle]

What's the math of it being VBTTTT vs MVBTTT? Isn't that what we should be looking at?

[Roadrunner7671]

Silverspawn, I have two questions:
1. Are you on the right page?
2. Are you on my page?
Ppe

'The longer you take to answer, the more suspicious I get.'

[Axxle]

Math aside though, I've had a town read on ss, not so much chairs, and I don't think either of them would risk fakeclaiming masons in this situation.

[Axxle]

Silverspawn, I have two questions:
1. Are you on the right page?
2. Are you on my page?
Ppe

Rr, I get you're pissed, and somewhat understandably if you're town. Can you just state "it was a joke, and you literally quoted where I said it was a joke" instead of being passive aggressive and aggregating the situation?

[silverspawn]

What's the math of it being VBTTTT vs MVBTTT? Isn't that what we should be looking at?

No, it's VBMTTT vs VBMMMT. Scenario with no UB has one M roll, scenario with UB has 3.

[Roadrunner7671]

Silverspawn, I have two questions:
1. Are you on the right page?
2. Are you on my page?
Ppe

Rr, I get you're pissed, and somewhat understandably if you're town. Can you just state "it was a joke, and you literally quoted where I said it was a joke" instead of being passive aggressive and aggregating the situation?

I'm talking about SS trying to get me to claim my targets.

[silverspawn]

well of course you should claim your targets...

[Roadrunner7671]

well of course you should claim your targets...

This is what I mean. This is insulting.

Am I the only one on the right page???

[Roadrunner7671]

And all my question marks turned into emoticons. That is an accurate summary of my day.

[chairs]

okay, so.

Realtalk: RR - it is to Town benefit that you claim your RB targets for the nights where you were roleblocker. This is because it can help us verify your likelihood of actually being the UB -> RB. If you're really that, then we're looking at Awaclus/WW/Yuma as lynch options. Hilariously, I've actually thought for most of this day that the scum team is probably Awaclus/Yuma (long story short, this is the one time yuma could bus his partner, get away with it hard, and look super town and also super yuma simultaneously).

From my perspective: I know the following things.

chairs - Town Mason.
silverspawn - Town Mason.
Axxle - Town 1-shot Vigilante.
--
Awaclus - ??
RR - ??
WW - ??
Yuma - ??

If we say RR - UB-> RB, then suddenly I have 3 lynch choices, and 2 scum in 3. Since awaclus is my top scum read, that makes me very much lean towards Awaclus.

Silverspawn is leaning towards you because statistically it's unlikely to have masons -and- a 1-shot vigilante -and- a UB. I think it's better to assume you're town for the moment, at least for lynching purposes, and then we should:

1) determine who your partner might be, in case you're scum
2) lynch from Awaclus/WW/Yuma.

If we lynch from that pool, then it's basically guaranteed Axxle dies tonight unless we lynch the strongman and you (as RB) luck into roleblocking the remaining Mafia - in which case we guarantee the win anyway.

[chairs]

I'm not trying to be insulting, I just don't understand why you're taking offence to being asked to claim your RB targets.

[Roadrunner7671]

Now, I realize how irrational I'm being, but ask yourself this SS:
Would you be doing this if someone else claimed UB?
PPE 2

[Axxle]

well of course you should claim your targets...

This is what I mean. This is insulting.

Am I the only one on the right page???

I'll translate for you, ss:

"I haven't fking been able to target anyone. Hydrad died last night. I'm not an idiot and it's really insulting you'd think I'd fall for this trap if I was fakeclaiming."

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm not trying to be insulting, I just don't understand why you're taking offence to being asked to claim your RB targets.

Now I'm questioning my own sanity.
Ppe

[Axxle]

I guess I needed to translate for chairs too.

[yuma]

It's insulting to ask you to claim your targets? Or do you just need more time to come up with answers?

At this point I think it's for my wincon to flip. It's okay to think I'm scum, but this is sort of degrading.

it would be helpful if you explained why it was degrading...

Is this a joke?

Hey. Cool down. Seeing if someone slips up is a legitimate way to scum hunt. You are the one taking it personally when it is legitimate to do that to anyone.

And yeah... If you had explained why it was insulting instead of being passive aggressive this convo would have lasted two posts instead of 25.

[yuma]

I mean I knew what ss was doing and chose not to post and state it to see how you react. If you had said hydrad died last night nice try it would ended and we would have moved on. Instead you reacted as you did.

[chairs]

I honestly didn't know when we lost the roleblocker, so after I posted that I went back to review.

[chairs]

Anyway, now that we've cleared that up...

vote: awaclus with me!

[yuma]

Anyway, now that we've cleared that up...

vote: awaclus with me!

Why him over RR? Or did you explain in that big post I just glossed over cause it is late?

[Axxle]

I mean I knew what ss was doing and chose not to post and state it to see how you react. If you had said hydrad died last night nice try it would ended and we would have moved on. Instead you reacted as you did.

definitely just seems like a personality trait rather than a tell of some kind which is why I ended it. Haven't played with rr though to confirm that.

[Roadrunner7671]

I mean I knew what ss was doing and chose not to post and state it to see how you react. If you had said hydrad died last night nice try it would ended and we would have moved on. Instead you reacted as you did.

I don't think that's a legitimate scum hunting strategy. No one's gonna fall for that, so from my eyes it was something along the lines of: 'Hmmm, maybe RR will fall for this. Cause he's {insert thing here} so it might work, right guys?' *Wink wink*

Yes, maybe I overreacted. But that's how it came off to me.


Sorry SS. Sorry Yuma.
Ppe 2

[yuma]

I guess you said why and I obviousltpy don't mind a awaclus lynch but in the event that he is town... Possible... Then we have to decide among RR chairs/SS without the benefit having at the least quasi ICs..

[silverspawn]

Would you be doing this if someone else claimed UB?

of course?

[Witherweaver]

And all my question marks turned into emoticons. That is an accurate summary of my day.

What page are you talking about?

[Awaclus]

I'm on page 24.

[silverspawn]

err what? Hyrad died last night?

[Roadrunner7671]

Would you be doing this if someone else claimed UB?

of course?

Why?
Ppe

[Roadrunner7671]

err what? Hyrad died last night?

No...

[Witherweaver]

SS could have just forgotten when Hydrad died.  I do that stuff a lot.

PPE~

[Axxle]

I'm on page 24.

116 for me

[silverspawn]

Oh he did. ... you could have just said so.

[silverspawn]

Awaclus is fine. vote: Awaclus

[Witherweaver]

I'm on page 24.

116 for me

1161 for me; I have one message per page.

[chairs]

47 here.

[silverspawn]

24

[Roadrunner7671]

Oh he did. ... you could have just said so.

So we're going to go do breathing exercises or get massaged by butterflies or something. But we're not doing this.

[silverspawn]

Oh he did. ... you could have just said so.

Gringinoladun fedomal torrentatulum nadiuhu

[yuma]

Awaclus is fine. vote: Awaclus

Right now voting outside of RR/ss/chairs only makes sense for the claimed masons. For the rest of us it doesnt. If we are sticking to the mathematical probability.

Awaclus is my choice but in the event where he flips town it gives no information to me/ww/axxle compared to a flip from SS/chairs/RR

[Witherweaver]

He's speaking in tongues!

[Witherweaver]

Awaclus is fine. vote: Awaclus

Right now voting outside of RR/ss/chairs only makes sense for the claimed masons. For the rest of us it doesnt. If we are sticking to the mathematical probability.

Awaclus is my choice but in the event where he flips town it gives no information to me/ww/axxle compared to a flip from SS/chairs/RR

Wait, it's not impossible for RR/SS/Chairs to be telling the truth, is it?

[silverspawn]

Wait, it's not impossible for RR/SS/Chairs to be telling the truth, is it?

that's possible; that's the 14%

[yuma]

Awaclus is fine. vote: Awaclus

Right now voting outside of RR/ss/chairs only makes sense for the claimed masons. For the rest of us it doesnt. If we are sticking to the mathematical probability.

Awaclus is my choice but in the event where he flips town it gives no information to me/ww/axxle compared to a flip from SS/chairs/RR

Wait, it's not impossible for RR/SS/Chairs to be telling the truth, is it?

SS did the math. It is possible. Just unlikely. 12% or something like that...

BVMMM

[Witherweaver]

That's a bad argument, and you all should feel bad.  If we're making that argument now why didn't we make it at the beginning of the game?

[yuma]

Huh?

[Roadrunner7671]

That's a bad argument, and you all should feel bad.  If we're making that argument now why didn't we make it at the beginning of the game?

Oh, I feel bad.

[Witherweaver]

Regardless, I'm feeling RR over SS/Chairs, and I'm guessing RR/Awaclus over RR/Yuma, and indeed over Yuma/Awaclus.

[silverspawn]

That's a bad argument, and you all should feel bad.  If we're making that argument now why didn't we make it at the beginning of the game?

I don't know what exactly you mean, but I thought from the beginning that only one T is unlikely.

[Witherweaver]

Those aren't the real probabilities, because they don't take into account all the information of the past 24/48/116, 1200whatever pages.

[2.71828.....]

I'm on page 24.

116 for me

Vote Count 3.6

Awaclus (2): chairs, silverspawn (L-2)
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Roadrunner7671 (2): Witherweaver, yuma (L-2)

Not Voting (2): Axxle, Roadrunner7671

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day 3 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 3 will be Monday, March 21 at 11:45 AM forum time.

[yuma]

I mean thi sing like xshots were there was obvious interactions to cancel out the mathematical probability. Here it is pretty even so relying on math while keeping in mind the interactions isn't horrible at all...

[Witherweaver]

That's a bad argument, and you all should feel bad.  If we're making that argument now why didn't we make it at the beginning of the game?

I don't know what exactly you mean, but I thought from the beginning that only one T is unlikely.

It doesn't matter how unlikely it is if that's the setup we're in.

[Witherweaver]

So next time we're in this setup we'll just massclaim and if we're in a low probability scenario we'll just lynch all the PRs.  Flawless.

[yuma]

Those aren't the real probabilities, because they don't take into account all the information of the past 24/48/116, 1200whatever pages.

Like I said I am taking into account those interactions and I am not seeing any red flag to overcome those odds. If there was I would speak up about it.

[yuma]

So next time we're in this setup we'll just massclaim and if we're in a low probability scenario we'll just lynch all the PRs.  Flawless.

Or you could just ignore my posts entirely... That works too

[Roadrunner7671]

24/48/116

So this linked into a phone number. I guess I'm going to call them.

[yuma]

But in the end I agree with you. I think RR is the lynch to go to right now. I am just arguing that the masons can only see awaclus as a possible lynch given their information. The rest of us don't have that and as such need more so they shouldn't be voting for him. They should vote for RR

[yuma]

And bed time

[Witherweaver]

I mean thi sing like xshots were there was obvious interactions to cancel out the mathematical probability. Here it is pretty even so relying on math while keeping in mind the interactions isn't horrible at all...

Well, sure, all else being equal it's something to go on. 

[Roadrunner7671]

And bed time

[silverspawn]

So next time we're in this setup we'll just massclaim and if we're in a low probability scenario we'll just lynch all the PRs.  Flawless.

We already had this discussion, but you're not understanding correctly what the 14% means.

The claims we have allow for two different setups. One of them is more likely than the other. I did not calculate the a priory absolute probability of the MMM setup. That number is much lower and it's completely meaningless.

[Awaclus]

Why RR over the masons?

[silverspawn]

Some more thoughts

- if RR flips UB, then the same maths argument points towards us next, so I'd have to... idk what I'd do then
- if RR is scum, then Awaclus is only one candidate out of 3.

Idk... RR is still very likely scum, but the risk is also higher. And I do have a townread on him.

[chairs]

RR has been my most town read today so I'm willing to buck the math to lynch someone o think is actually mafia.

[yuma]

Right now I am wary of the masons... Stating they want to lynch awaclus today and then if he flips town pushing for a RR lynch tomorrow.

Let me be clear. For me and... I can't speak for the others who haven't claimed but I think this would apply to them as well... The lynch today needs to be between RR or the masons. If the masons won't go for RR I will switch to them.

Chairs being willing to buck math but not actually giving any explanation for why is highlynsuspicious. Because I can start to foresee a mislynch and then him stating we need to follow the math tomorrow after all and lynch RR

[chairs]

I felt I gave an explanation - "RR is a town read for me".

[yuma]

Why RR over the masons?

For me there are a couple of reasons...

- While I don't like the way either claimed, I felt that the masons at least had some backbone to it. Some stuff that I could go back and assess and see either as hints to being a PR or fake hints... ss's blatant posts, the breadcrumb, etc. Compared to RR who appeared to breadcrumb being a mason... wait... Oh never mind... it was hydrad who stated that he thought RR was a Mason... not chairs. never mind. RR's claim felt like it came as a realization that he needed to do something as scum

- I like lynching RR today because if he is scum then we have one more mislynch (non mylo situation) to work with to find his partner. If we hit correctly on the masons today we just win automatically. Same as if we hit the masons tomorrow correctly. Compared to if we miss on the masons today then we have a mylo situation while we most likely lynch RR and then look for his partner...

- I think he fits the bill the most as your partner especially given your interactions today. you are my strongest scum read and that plays a factor. But lynching you today doesn't make sense. This isn't that big of a deal as the otehr points are bigger, but it is a factor.

So yeah... let's lynch RR today. Masons can you agree with me that it is better for the overall group if we do it like this and move your votes?

[yuma]

I felt I gave an explanation - "RR is a town read for me".

ss want to have a chat with your mason/buddy...?

Look at this from my perspective... from ww's perspective... from axxle's perspective...

you want us to ignore probability and lynch away from a group that strongly, strongly likely has confirmed scum in it? Because you have a town read that you haven't explained?

If we mislynch Awaclus today you are going to buck your townread on RR and want us to lynch him tomorrow right?

[chairs]

I feel like this is just setting us up for a "by the math" mislynch of a mason tomorrow, but that's because I think the scumteam is awaclus/yuma.

If WW/Axxle feel the same as you do, though, I'll vote for RR.

[chairs]

I would almost certainly not lynch RR tomorrow if awaclus flipped scum; I would potentially lynch RR if awaclus flipped town.

[Roadrunner7671]

I would almost certainly not lynch RR tomorrow if awaclus flipped scum; I would potentially lynch RR if awaclus flipped town.

if Awaclus flips town I don't see you or SS not getting lynched on D4.

[chairs]

I would almost certainly not lynch RR tomorrow if awaclus flipped scum; I would potentially lynch RR if awaclus flipped town.

if Awaclus flips town I don't see you or SS not getting lynched on D4.

Fair enough, so then we must treat today as lylo, and at lylo, reads matter. The way you reacted to SS read extremely town!RR to me (after it was clarified that the RB role only died last night) - I don't think scum!RR manages to come across so authentically mad.  WW has kind of slid through this game to me, but awaclus and yuma have both played in a way that I've theorized for at least 2 games now would be the playstyle of an awaclus/yuma scum pairing, so I'm most keen to lynch one of them and have you RB the other - this would, assuming I'm right, potentially block the NK (and if it does, expose the last Mafia for sure).

[yuma]

I would almost certainly not lynch RR tomorrow if awaclus flipped scum; I would potentially lynch RR if awaclus flipped town.

Really? That is bizarre? You really think awaclus and I are partners? You are barking up a conspiracy tree and totally ignoring math. I am not saying you should completely rely on it but man that is not only really bad math but also ignoring the entire game state...

[yuma]

Your whole premise is a theory You made on how we would act as partners? Despite there being no actual evidence of how we would act...

Well good job. You created a premise and then found proof to back it up in your mind. Too bad it isn't grounded in reality, just in your head...

[Awaclus]

Your whole premise is a theory You made on how we would act as partners? Despite there being no actual evidence of how we would act...

Well good job. You created a premise and then found proof to back it up in your mind. Too bad it isn't grounded in reality, just in your head...

As expected of the "masons".

[chairs]

Ironically you continue to play right into my theory, although the eyerolling is definitely reducing my ability to care about this game.

I'm 100% not voting RR today now. My vote is on awaclus, and it stays there. If that means the rest of Town ends up lynching SS or myself, then so be it, I guess.

[yuma]

Ironically you continue to play right into my theory, although the eyerolling is definitely reducing my ability to care about this game.

I'm 100% not voting RR today now. My vote is on awaclus, and it stays there. If that means the rest of Town ends up lynching SS or myself, then so be it, I guess.

fine. vote: chairs for caring more about himself then he cares about helping the rest of town get at the right solution

either scummy play or selfish town play.

[Witherweaver]

So next time we're in this setup we'll just massclaim and if we're in a low probability scenario we'll just lynch all the PRs.  Flawless.

We already had this discussion, but you're not understanding correctly what the 14% means.

The claims we have allow for two different setups. One of them is more likely than the other. I did not calculate the a priory absolute probability of the MMM setup. That number is much lower and it's completely meaningless.

You are missing the point.

[yuma]

You know what... no. No one is missing the point. The scum team is most likely RR/Awaclus. The best way to get to that conclusion is to vote RR right here, right now. Regardless of what chairs does.

vote: RR

I won't be suckered into being stupid again...

[silverspawn]

You are missing the point.

vote: RR

[silverspawn]

Still only L-1

[yuma]

Still only L-1

Get your mason friend to join you...

[Awaclus]

vote: RR

I won't be suckered into being stupid again...

Well, I don't really see how that's not exactly what's happening here.

[chairs]

So next time we're in this setup we'll just massclaim and if we're in a low probability scenario we'll just lynch all the PRs.  Flawless.

We already had this discussion, but you're not understanding correctly what the 14% means.

The claims we have allow for two different setups. One of them is more likely than the other. I did not calculate the a priory absolute probability of the MMM setup. That number is much lower and it's completely meaningless.

You are missing the point.

I get what you're saying, WW, and I agree with you.

I will admit I let my frustration with both awaclus and yuma's play today, particularly recently, color my opinion on the towniness or lack thereof of lynching RR. I've since vented in my personal QT.

I'm going to vote: RR because I don't want to deal with either of them any more right now.

[yuma]

vote: RR

I won't be suckered into being stupid again...

Well, I don't really see how that's not exactly what's happening here.

I could very easily be doing something stupid. But at least it is the stupidity of my own making and my own decisions instead of others getting the best of my emotions. I would gladly be stupid of my own accord than act stupid because someone else enticed me to do so...

[yuma]

So next time we're in this setup we'll just massclaim and if we're in a low probability scenario we'll just lynch all the PRs.  Flawless.

We already had this discussion, but you're not understanding correctly what the 14% means.

The claims we have allow for two different setups. One of them is more likely than the other. I did not calculate the a priory absolute probability of the MMM setup. That number is much lower and it's completely meaningless.

You are missing the point.

I get what you're saying, WW, and I agree with you.

I will admit I let my frustration with both awaclus and yuma's play today, particularly recently, color my opinion on the towniness or lack thereof of lynching RR. I've since vented in my personal QT.

I'm going to vote: RR because I don't want to deal with either of them any more right now.

A discussion after the game would be very welcome. I have thought I had been relatively townie throughout the game and today. But of course my glasses are tinted in the space of my own ego. THe thing is, you don't really state why you find people scummy, so it is hard to self reflect if you just state again and again that I am doing scummy things but don't state what those things are...

[2.71828.....]

Twilight

On phone, at work.  Lynch has been reached can't do vote count right now. Probably in 3 hrs or so.

[chairs]

I've long theorized what a yuma and awaclus  scum pairing would look like, like for multiple games.  You happen to both be hitting that theory today nicely.

I'm also tinted by working at a Web based job from home with my Internet cutting out today every five goddamn minutes so I'm not particularly agreeable.

[Roadrunner7671]

Oh snap.

[yuma]

I've long theorized what a yuma and awaclus  scum pairing would look like, like for multiple games.  You happen to both be hitting that theory today nicely.

And I have no idea what that theorizing actually is and how it compares to what is actually happening here. Except that I can guarantee that this isn't it... Of course you can't know that. But you expect me to know what this theory of yours is without actually giving any information to help me understand it. Maybe that is intentional...? I don't know. But that explains my reaction to you, lack of solid information to work upon.

[silverspawn]

Great!

If RR flips town my trust is shattered... not in maths, but in my own luck.

[chairs]

I can't exactly explain it in words, it's more of a feeling. j Can understand the frustration in wanting to respond and not having something to resound to.

[iguanaiguana]

Hmm....

Thread locked!

[iguanaiguana]

Day 3 Final Vote Count

silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Roadrunner7671 (2): Witherweaver, yuma, silverspawn, chairs

Not Voting (2): Axxle, Roadrunner7671

With seven alive, it took four to lynch.

Roadrunner7671 has been lynched!  He was a Mafia Godfather!  In order to accomplish his mission to destroy all combos with Scout, he infiltrated Scout's birthday party as Mystic, but was really Rebuild, who wanted to destroy all cards that could threaten a combo strategy better than going for rebuild!

[iguanaiguana]

Night 4 begins now! Night actions are due in 36 hours. Day 4 will begin in 48 hours, or whenever e decides he wants it to begin.

[2.71828.....]

Axxle was the only one who filled out my complaint form last time for opening the thread early....Hope you guys don't mind it this time either.

Day 4 Start


All of the party-goers were proud of themselves going to sleep after that hard days work finding Rebuild.  I mean, Rebuild just confessed to the whole world that he was secretly a Scout Lover all along and that he was misguided and should have known better.  He was just trying to curry the favor of a few other cards by kidnapping Scout.  He thought it was all a big joke.  He assumed that everyone was like him and actually loved Scout even though they talked to badly about him.  It was too late that he realized his mistake.  Then, being surrounded by so many kind, loving Scout combos....Rebuild just couldn't take it anymore and had to confess.

It was a good day.

Except....Scout was still missing.  As tough of a card that Rebuild was, his fellow conspirators knew that he had a soft spot for Scout and had not trusted him with its full location.  He only knew a little bit.  "Thank you Scout Friends!  But our Scout is in another Castle." That was all the information that Rebuild knew.

But still, everyone fell asleep with a good feeling.  Rebuild had changed!  There was hope for everyone.  Unfortunately, when morning broke there was another ripped up card with another note:

"You think you guys are tough because you converted Rebuild.  Bah Humbug!  I am still alive and well, and I will still bring this Scout Party crashing down!"

Axxle has been killed in the night.  He was Baron, a Town 1-Shot Vigilante!

Thread Unlocked

Vote Count 4.0

Not Voting (5): yuma, silverspawn, Awaclus, chairs, Witherweaver

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch. Day 4 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 4 will be Sunday, March 27 at 12:45 AM forum time.

[silverspawn]

vote: Awaclus

[silverspawn]

So we have 2 ICs and 2 VTs and 1 scum and 2 lynches. Which means that we have to select one of {WW, yuma, Awaclus} to not lynch. There is no way that person is Awaclus for me, so we might aswell lynch him right away and should he not be the one we can do the searching tomorrow.

[silverspawn]

Also I vote for a shorter Night IV

[Awaclus]

Un-fucking-believable. Oh well, you'll still have a chance to lynch yuma when you're done mislynching me. Vote: yuma

[silverspawn]

so real talk, did you seriously believe that we were fakeclaiming?

[Awaclus]

so real talk, did you seriously believe that we were fakeclaiming?

Yes. It still doesn't make any sense at all that you are not actually fakeclaiming.

[yuma]

Vote: awaclus

[yuma]

Ok with hammer whenever

[yuma]

Also I guess it is possible that we have other roles as we are currently at MVB. But any other claims should come today as today is the only day they are verifiable. If someone claims today and has a result or something we can lynch that person today and if wrong lynch the other tomorrow. The same cannot be done if we have a tomorrow and someone claims...

That said. I claim VT

[2.71828.....]

quick, decisive action.  That's what we need.

Vote Count 4.1

Awaclus (2): silverspawn, yuma (L-1)
Yuma (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (2): chairs, Witherweaver

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch. Day 4 will last 10 days. The deadline for Day 4 will be Sunday, March 27 at 12:45 AM forum time.

[chairs]

vote: awaclus

[chairs]

Sorry day,  but whatever.

[yuma]

Sorry day,  but whatever.

hopefully we just win... I really don't want to have to go to battle with ww...

[chairs]

Short not sorry.

[yuma]

Short not sorry.

Also... this is me not rubbing it in that it is impossible for awaclus and me to be on the same team... not rubbing it in at all...

[chairs]

Short not sorry.

Also... this is me not rubbing it in that it is impossible for awaclus and me to be on the same team... not rubbing it in at all...

To quote my personal QT: "Well now I look like a real jerk."

[yuma]

Short not sorry.

Also... this is me not rubbing it in that it is impossible for awaclus and me to be on the same team... not rubbing it in at all...

To quote my personal QT: "Well now I look like a real jerk."

Hmmm... No I don't think so...

[yuma]

flippity, flippity, flip

[Awaclus]

hopefully we just win... I really don't want to have to go to battle with ww...

Well, we didn't.

[Witherweaver]

Hi guys.

I guess I didn't have a chance to say anything today. 

[2.71828.....]

Day 4 Final Vote Count

Awaclus (3): silverspawn, yuma, chairs
Yuma (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (1): Witherweaver

With 5 alive, it took 3 to lynch.

Awaclus has been lynched!  He was a 1-shot Strongman!  In order to accomplish his mission to destroy all combos with Scout, he infiltrated Scout's birthday party as great hall, but was really navigator, who never understood the point of scout as a dominion card

Town wins

Comments/links/mvp/etc once I get home after work and am no longer posting from my phone. Other people feel free to share links to stuff

[silverspawn]

woooo!!!

[Joseph2302]

I dispute some of these Scout combos. But woo we won!
Also, Axxle why did you shoot me? Everyone assumed I was NKed.

[Witherweaver]

Oh hey good.  I was really worried that it was Yuma.  I think I had a better voting history/interaction, but it still probably would have been a struggle.

[Roadrunner7671]

Bad. My UB claim felt good, but it wasn't.

I wanted Awaclus to claim UB then I could counterclaim.

I also didn't want ADK to hammer.

I also didn't want to be scum.

[faust]

Well done, guys.

Though I'm not convinced about the Mason play.

So ADK, what was the point of the self-hammer? Both partners being off-wagon?

[Awaclus]

This game goes to show that not bussing is extremely bad even when you have a meta of bussing as scum.

[Witherweaver]

This game goes to show that not bussing is extremely bad even when you have a meta of bussing as scum.

I think it's pretty conditional.. and, generally, scum getting lynched Day 1 is almost always a loss for scum.

[faust]

Speccy: http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/p3KfmzVKMn6LU

[faust]

Also, man Awaclus. Are you ever not scum?

[Witherweaver]

Speccy: http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/p3KfmzVKMn6LU

If I had posted, I probably would have caused a lot more stir about looking at Yuma.  We still probably would have ended up lynching Awaclus anyway.

Ultimately for the best since I'm overextended with available time right now.

[Witherweaver]

Also for the record I stand by what I said---I thought SS was being intentionally inciting and insulting.

[silverspawn]

Though I'm not convinced about the Mason
play.

hm, why not?

[Roadrunner7671]

Also for the record I stand by what I said---I thought SS was being intentionally inciting and insulting.

I think I'd agree.

But I'd also like to note that no one offended me in the game, but I was scrambling and decided I needed something radical.

[silverspawn]

Huh... reading the speccy, everyone thought mason play was bad. That's depressing, and I don't understand why at all. In the past, masons usually died nights 1 and 2. With my plan, we managed not to preserve both of our lives in the later game, where IC's matter more for PoE.

Not to add that pretty much everything I planed this game worked out.

 

[silverspawn]

*to preserve/not to die

[silverspawn]

Also for the record I stand by what I said---I thought SS was being intentionally inciting and insulting.

dude you straight up insulted me. Twice in the last week or so. what the fuck.

[Witherweaver]

Also for the record I stand by what I said---I thought SS was being intentionally inciting and insulting.

dude you straight up insulted me. Twice in the last week or so. what the fuck.

I don't recall insulting you; I was saying you were being a jerk.

[yuma]

Oh hey good.  I was really worried that it was Yuma.  I think I had a better voting history/interaction, but it still probably would have been a struggle.

Yeah... I didn't think I had a chance. I was super worried... plus you are like the king of mylo... although generally you are the IC in those situations.

[silverspawn]

I don't recall insulting you; I was saying you were being a jerk.

Also, as an aside, you should try not being racist some time and see how it suits you.

Also, talking like a dick is certainly not going to make people want to lynch you less.

I have no idea how anyone can take your side here. If that happened in my game, I'd have at least gave you a warning, if not modkilled you immediately.

[Witherweaver]

I don't recall insulting you; I was saying you were being a jerk.

Also, as an aside, you should try not being racist some time and see how it suits you.

Also, talking like a dick is certainly not going to make people want to lynch you less.

I have no idea how anyone can take your side here. If that happened in my game, I'd have at least gave you a warning, if not modkilled you immediately.

I don't see any insults there.

[yuma]

Huh... reading the speccy, everyone thought mason play was bad. That's depressing, and I don't understand why at all. In the past, masons usually died nights 1 and 2. With my plan, we managed not to preserve both of our lives in the later game, where IC's matter more for PoE.

Not to add that pretty much everything I planed this game worked out.

 

It wasn't how I would have played it. I ended up stating in my speccy that it ended up working out and that I was approaching how you played it with a bias from my own perspective that worked fine.

I don't necessarily think immediately claiming is necessary, but the voting for each other maybe wasnt' the best way to do it? I just dont' think mafia pays so much attention to that looking for people who don't vote for each other over the first few days... I mean that just happens normally.

[silverspawn]

I don't necessarily think immediately claiming is necessary, but the voting for each other maybe wasnt' the best way to do it?

but why??

[yuma]

Also sorry to gkrieg... I was really confident in my case there. But was wrong. Sometimes that happens.

[silverspawn]

I've been in much more heated debates in the past with Ichi and ashersky and yuma and neither of them ever downright insulted me the way you did.

[yuma]

I don't necessarily think immediately claiming is necessary, but the voting for each other maybe wasnt' the best way to do it?

but why??

Because it did what it did to me... It created doubt and suspicion about your mason claim. When i see a mason claim the first thing I do is go back and see how they interacted with each other. They should know each other aren't mafia so they shoudln't vote for each other.

I don't think it is necessary to hide your masonness from mafia via voting for each other. Mafia I don't think looks for those interactions unless it knows there are masons in the game...

Again, this is a bias. But I go back to a game where I was masons with theorel. We didn't vote for each other and mafia didn't ahve a clue we were masons until we claimed Day3. So voting for each other would have been unnecssary and complicate when people tried to assess whether we were actually masons or not.

[Witherweaver]

I'm surprised you think the way you were acting after you claimed was okay, actually.  You were being a dick, calling us short-sighted and petty, and (in addition to correcting you), I called you out on it.  I did nothing wrong there.

It occurred to me that you were intentionally being ostentatious because you thought it would lend more credibility to people seeing you as town, but it's a fine line between scum acting that way and town acting that way.

[Witherweaver]

I've been in much more heated debates in the past with Ichi and ashersky and yuma and neither of them ever downright insulted me the way you did.

Achievement unlocked.

Though I'm not sure why you feel insulted.

[chairs]

I've been in much more heated debates in the past with Ichi and ashersky and yuma and neither of them ever downright insulted me the way you did.

Achievement unlocked.

Though I'm not sure why you feel insulted.

"try not being racist" is pretty damn insulting.

[Awaclus]

I will continue to refuse to vote for anyone except for claimed masons who vote for each other as all alignments in any and all future Mafia games that I play. This has been a public service announcement.

[faust]

I don't think that stuff posted in other threads around the forums needs to be discussed here.

[silverspawn]

This is what I said.

Did you expect us to forget about the previous game?  Or expect us to assume you wouldn't try it because of it?

I don't think that game changes the probability of fakeclaiming masons much, if anything it probably makes it less likely.

It is not my fault that you were so blind that game. Ash claimed masons day 1 and they were never killed, and you never managed to lynch a single scum. Hello. I don't know why you didn't realize something was up.

Here, I kept our identity hidden and we already got a scum day 1.

I hereby politely ask you to not be anti town because you're grumpy over a loss in a game where you didn't want to believe that scum fakeclaimed masons despite having plenty of evidence.

There is no evidence here. Everything I did makes perfect sense. And scum fakeclaiming masons is highly unlikely--- and is not more likely because it just happened.

Imo this is well in the realm of the civility pledge. The worst thing I did was say that you're grumpy and have been blind to evidence in the mason game.

Coming to that, let's list facts

Ash Game:
- math pointed towards masons being scum with a very high number. SP found the masons out in the speccy without any additional information.
- the masons did not die that game despite claiming day 1.

This Game:
- I played really scummy. I don't play that scummy as scum, so I don't even think this is evidence for scum!me, but whatevs, call it evidence if you want.

So the situation is different. And yet we received way more scrutiny and accusations than ash and whoever it was did that game. It is a result of human irrationality. I don't like irrationality, I call people out on it. Plus, you know, if the above posts even need defense, I made them upon receiving this level of unfair scrutiny. What's your excuse?

I don't think that stuff posted in other threads around the forums needs to be discussed here.

I made an entire thread for it because I thought that it was a horrendous insult, he didn't answer there; now he's calling ME out for being offending. It's relevant here.

[silverspawn]

Masons are not ICs. They're just not.

Well, everyone treated Masons as ICs before the ash game. I assumed the same standards would apply here.

[yuma]

and once again the speccy finds me way scummier than I actually am.

and people really thought that is how I would play with awaclus as my partner? I am beginning to think you guys don't know me at all.

And I stand by the self-hammer being a bad play. i am sorry if I insulting by insinuating it was an emotional  play. But like I said, Hydrad and myself were going to unvote with a claim. So you would have lost two votes just from there... at least for a while... likely a couple of days until your claim started to unravel.

i can't see why anyone would have thought that would be a good play, but I would love to hear some reasoning for something maybe I haven't thought of

[Awaclus]

I made an entire thread for it because I thought that it was a horrendous insult, he didn't answer there; now he's calling ME out for being offending. It's relevant here.

No, that's not really relevant. Just because he is also guilty of something that he's criticizing others for doesn't mean that the others shouldn't be criticized for it.

That said, offense is taken, not given, so it's super pointless to call other people "offensive".

[faust]

I don't think that stuff posted in other threads around the forums needs to be discussed here.

I made an entire thread for it because I thought that it was a horrendous insult, he didn't answer there; now he's calling ME out for being offending. It's relevant here.

Have you tried resolving the issue via PMs? Some people may not like being dragged into a public mudfight. I know I don't.

[Witherweaver]

First off, everything you're saying is just straight up not true.  Masons are not treated as ICs.  See Dice Mafia.

As I explained before, I wasn't in the other game by the time lynching Masons became reasonable.  I very likely would have ended up doing it.

The math thing is of course poor, as the same thing applies in this game.

So the situation is different. And yet we received way more scrutiny and accusations than ash and whoever it was did that game. It is a result of human irrationality. I don't like irrationality, I call people out on it. Plus, you know, if the above posts even need defense, I made them upon receiving this level of unfair scrutiny. What's your excuse?

You admitted you played scummy and then consider being scrutinized unfair?  "I don't play scummy as scum" is not a valid defense.

I seriously have trouble imagining you writing this post seriously.

I made an entire thread for it because I thought that it was a horrendous insult, he didn't answer there; now he's calling ME out for being offending. It's relevant here.

The fact that you hold your ridiculous position in the first place, let alone after all the discussion that followed, is good indication that you're simply not going to listen.

[faust]

Masons are not ICs. They're just not.

Well, everyone treated Masons as ICs before the ash game. I assumed the same standards would apply here.

Wrong; see Dice Mafia.

[faust]

Haha, ninja'd.

[Witherweaver]

and once again the speccy finds me way scummier than I actually am.

and people really thought that is how I would play with awaclus as my partner? I am beginning to think you guys don't know me at all.

And I stand by the self-hammer being a bad play. i am sorry if I insulting by insinuating it was an emotional  play. But like I said, Hydrad and myself were going to unvote with a claim. So you would have lost two votes just from there... at least for a while... likely a couple of days until your claim started to unravel.

i can't see why anyone would have thought that would be a good play, but I would love to hear some reasoning for something maybe I haven't thought of

I don't really know how you would play with Awaclus as a partner.  I'm guessing there would be a fight, though.

[yuma]

I don't really know how you would play with Awaclus as a partner.

Exactly.

[yuma]

and truth be told... I don't even know how I would act because the scenario hasn't come up yet.

[Witherweaver]

and truth be told... I don't even know how I would act because the scenario hasn't come up yet.

Well then it's not entirely unfair for someone to theorize it would look like this.

[Roadrunner7671]

and truth be told... I don't even know how I would act because the scenario hasn't come up yet.

I've never been scum without Awaclus.

[silverspawn]

Have you tried resolving the issue via PMs? Some people may not like being dragged into a public mudfight. I know I don't.

I have considered it. I don't like it. Debates via PMs tend to be more two people saying whatever backs up their position, and each one thinks the other is wrong, so the quality of arguments doesn't really matter. doing it via thread allows other people to weigh in, which means you're being held accountable. example: I got convinced that I was wrong in the debate with iguanda in the tree game because we did it publicly; he would not have been able to convince me had we done it via PM.

and you do not have to read it. it's a forum. you can gloss over whatever you want. there are enough people who did respond to that thread, so clearly interest is there.

point taken about Dice Mafia. Slightly lessens the irrationality argument. Doesn't change the civility.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm not insulted by you thinking the self-hammer was a bad play, especially since I'm feeling that way now too. It certainly didn't do what I wanted. I'll explain in more detail when not on phone.

[yuma]

and truth be told... I don't even know how I would act because the scenario hasn't come up yet.

Well then it's not entirely unfair for someone to theorize it would look like this.

Well... I do think it wouldn't look anything like this. And the issue was more that people wanted to lynch me/awaclus to implicate each other when we had a good situation to lynch among rr/ss/chairs that was based off play and theory and not just speculation and theory.

[yuma]

this would have been a fun game to be scum with WW though...

[silverspawn]

Have you tried resolving the issue via PMs? Some people may not like being dragged into a public mudfight. I know I don't.

I have considered it. I don't like it. Debates via PMs tend to be more two people saying whatever backs up their position, and each one thinks the other is wrong, so the quality of arguments doesn't really matter. doing it via thread allows other people to weigh in, which means you're being held accountable. example: I got convinced that I was wrong in the debate with iguanda in the tree game because we did it publicly; he would not have been able to convince me had we done it via PM.

and you do not have to read it. it's a forum. you can gloss over whatever you want. there are enough people who did respond to that thread, so clearly interest is there.

point taken about Dice Mafia. Slightly lessens the irrationality argument. Doesn't change the civility.

also WW brought up the civility, for goodness sake, not me.

[Witherweaver]

Have you tried resolving the issue via PMs? Some people may not like being dragged into a public mudfight. I know I don't.

I have considered it. I don't like it. Debates via PMs tend to be more two people saying whatever backs up their position, and each one thinks the other is wrong, so the quality of arguments doesn't really matter. doing it via thread allows other people to weigh in, which means you're being held accountable. example: I got convinced that I was wrong in the debate with iguanda in the tree game because we did it publicly; he would not have been able to convince me had we done it via PM.

and you do not have to read it. it's a forum. you can gloss over whatever you want. there are enough people who did respond to that thread, so clearly interest is there.

point taken about Dice Mafia. Slightly lessens the irrationality argument. Doesn't change the civility.

It's possible you don't actually see why what you said was annoying.  I really have a hard time believing it.  Maybe there is a language thing.  At any rate, I'll attempt to explain.

It is not my fault that you were so blind that game.

I mean, every time I read this, my response is nothing but "Wow, fuck you."  I'm not saying that to you now, I'm saying that's my emotional response to this statement.  Every time I look up and reread it.  So:

1) As I said, I wasn't so blind that game.  I didn't have reason to doubt the claim initially, but even so I didn't blindly accept it.  I was lynched Day 2, and even then I was starting to question the claim. 
2) Point 1 aside, calling someone "so blind" is just insulting.  It's basically saying "you're stupid".
3) MOREOVER, you're saying I am *continuing* to be blinded here because of my self-hatred of being so stupid in the past.
4) Really, is it not obvious that this is going to upset someone?  I'm just flabbergasted here.
5) You modded that game.  You have no idea what it was like to play it, because you experienced everything with full knowledge.  So judging how people behaved there comes off as presumptuous and superior.

Ash claimed masons day 1 and they were never killed, and you never managed to lynch a single scum. Hello. I don't know why you didn't realize something was up.

Man, I can't believe I'm explaining this.  "Hello", is one of those things you say to someone to mean "Hey, you're being an idiot.  It's so obvious (and you are therefore much more the stupid for not seeing it), that I need to alert you with a basic attention phrase.  "Hello?  Wake up, moron."

Do I even need to go on?  This is all EXTREMELY  CONDESCENDING. You were being a dick there. 

THE MORE ANNOYING THING is that you were using this argument to further the superiority of your own play here.  Man, that's frustrating.  So not only are you:

1) Being a jerk to us
2) Factually incorrect

But you continue to act like the paragon of strategy while criticizing our own ability to play the game.

Man, what I said was tame.

It was completely ridiculous and baseless for you to invoke civility here.

[Witherweaver]

Have you tried resolving the issue via PMs? Some people may not like being dragged into a public mudfight. I know I don't.

I have considered it. I don't like it. Debates via PMs tend to be more two people saying whatever backs up their position, and each one thinks the other is wrong, so the quality of arguments doesn't really matter. doing it via thread allows other people to weigh in, which means you're being held accountable. example: I got convinced that I was wrong in the debate with iguanda in the tree game because we did it publicly; he would not have been able to convince me had we done it via PM.

and you do not have to read it. it's a forum. you can gloss over whatever you want. there are enough people who did respond to that thread, so clearly interest is there.

point taken about Dice Mafia. Slightly lessens the irrationality argument. Doesn't change the civility.

also WW brought up the civility, for goodness sake, not me.

I didn't bring up civility.  I at no point claimed you were acting antithetical to the pledge.  I assumed you were acting the way you were because you thought it was the best way to win (as scum or town; I considered both). 

[faust]

I will continue to refuse to vote for anyone except for claimed masons who vote for each other as all alignments in any and all future Mafia games that I play. This has been a public service announcement.

Man, that means that the majority of the time, you won't vote for anyone. Since you usually also don't do much other stuff, I imagine it will be hard for you to not get modkilled.

[Witherweaver]

I hereby politely ask you to not be anti town because you're grumpy over a loss in a game where you didn't want to believe that scum fakeclaimed masons despite having plenty of evidence.

There is no evidence here. Everything I did makes perfect sense. And scum fakeclaiming masons is highly unlikely--- and is not more likely because it just happened.

God, this is even more annoying.  Not only were we all stupid sheeple that game, but we're even more stupid here for having the audacity to doubt the amazing paragon of perfection that is you!

You're additionally being presumptuous about our motives.  One thing that can be guaranteed to annoy other people is to claim you know the reasons behind their actions, and then claim that they're blind to those reasons.

[Awaclus]

I will continue to refuse to vote for anyone except for claimed masons who vote for each other as all alignments in any and all future Mafia games that I play. This has been a public service announcement.

Man, that means that the majority of the time, you won't vote for anyone. Since you usually also don't do much other stuff, I imagine it will be hard for you to not get modkilled.

It looks like I need to rephrase that statement.

I will continue to refuse to vote for anyone except for claimed masons who vote for each other, given that any exist, as all alignments in any and all future Mafia games that I play. This has been a public service announcement.

[ashersky]

Just to clarify -- only one of us claimed Masons D1; I held out until D3.

[Witherweaver]

Regarding the game, it's good that we didn't end up lynching Awaclus on yesterday.  I imagine I would have looked pretty bad with my hesitation to lynch him, especially with my longstanding promise to hammer Awaclus.  But I really didn't want a mislynch, because it would have made the LyLo really, really hard.  I also never did get around to rereading.. I may have been able to more or less clear Yuma, but I wasn't able to clear him from my in-head understanding of the game.

[silverspawn]

You're basically explaining here why what I said upset you. I get that. And that's fair. I disagree, I stand by every word I said there, I think town played  poorly in that game for not lynching the masons, but you have a right to disagree.

But I did not insult you. I criticized your play. You said I was being a dick. That's an insult. Saying you've been blind there and now biased because of that is a criticism of your play.

[silverspawn]

and saying I'm not factual when you are the one ignoring the maths is disingenuous.

[Witherweaver]

You cannot possibly be serious.

[Witherweaver]

There are ways to criticize without being a jerk.  You were criticizing whilst being a jerk.  You could have easily said the things you did in a noninflammatory (fun fact: sounds like a double negative but isn't) manner.

[silverspawn]

That is subjective. I for one think saying 'It is not my fault that you were so blind that game' is thoroughly warranted because DAMN RIGHT IT IS NOT. I do not ignore an 98% mathematical chance. The fifth of one in ten - do you know how frustrating it is to see town ignoring that?

But that is our subjective perception of the situation, which is why it is not worth arguing about. You just have to accept that our perceptions are different, you feel my posts are jerky, I feel like they are tame. Either way, don't get personal.

By the way faust.

The chances of gkrieg fakeclaiming as scum are extremely low. Now I don't know how to convince you of this, but in the ~100 games that have been played on this site, we have never once seen a Mason fakeclaim - that should give you some indication

You can not have both. Either masons are basically guaranteed town, or they aren't. Which one is it?

[chairs]

Maaaaaaate....

Stahhpp.

[Roadrunner7671]

Maaaaaaate....

Stahhpp.

[Axxle]

I dispute some of these Scout combos. But woo we won!
Also, Axxle why did you shoot me? Everyone assumed I was NKed.

I thought I was going to die that night, so I needed to use the shot then or town would have to eventually no kill to get the game down to odds.

I felt like if you were scum there was a good chance you wouldn't be lynched.

You had a very low posting rate and when you did post you didn't really talk about what the rest of the town was. If you were scum this reads as purposefully flying far under the radar, but as town it showed that you weren't engaging enough to be an effective scumhunter and even if you did find scum you wouldn't be able to convince other town players to vote with you. Part of it might be because you were online at times different from the rest of the people in the game.

You claimed VT, so it was low risk to vig you.

I think those were all my reasons. It was you or Awaclus tbh but I was convinced he'd eventually be lynched.

[iguanaiguana]

I dispute some of these Scout combos.

The flavor was all gentle parody.

[Roadrunner7671]

I dispute some of these Scout combos. But woo we won!

You what?!!!!!!!111oneoneoneoneoeneon

[iguanaiguana]

Huh... reading the speccy, everyone thought mason play was bad. That's depressing, and I don't understand why at all. In the past, masons usually died nights 1 and 2. With my plan, we managed not to preserve both of our lives in the later game, where IC's matter more for PoE.

Not to add that pretty much everything I planed this game worked out.

 

In the mod QT we discussed you for MVP and you may get it. Your play had downsides but it worked very well for you. I support it. Obviously it is e's decision.

[Axxle]

That is subjective.

Cool off for a second. You're talking about insulting people, of *course* it's subjective. You've got plenty of people saying that what you said crossed the line from criticizing play to criticizing character, and that is a "dick move" this you were "being a dick".

Plus a lot of your word choice screams an unnecessary amount of pride: "It's not my fault that [you messed up]"

You also assert people's reasons for their actions when thier reasons are different. This is incredibly patronizing [you're being anti town only because you recently lost a game in a similar situation]

[Axxle]

I have little to no problem with ss and chairs' mason play. I was immediately convinced with the reveal.

[Axxle]

I'm not familiar with the game in question, but even if you're right I believe The Dude said it best: "You're not wrong, you're just an asshole"

[Teproc]

Masons are not ICs. They're just not.

Well, everyone treated Masons as ICs before the ash game. I assumed the same standards would apply here.

To be fair, I don't think I've ever been in a game with Masons. And yeah I would treat them as ICs more or less, in the sense that they wouldn't be in my lynch pool, but that's mostly because it puts scum in a position where they have to kill them. If the masons keep not dying, they're not ICs anymore.

The key difference is : you can't just claim in the most scummy way possible and expect people to believe everything you're doing, because you're not an IC. It's a very risky play, one that can work, but can very easily end in you getting lynched.

Voting for you mason partner is wayyyyy overkill too. Scum isn't looking that closely, all it does is make your eventual claim way less believable.

[silverspawn]

You're talking about insulting people, of *course* it's subjective.

Well, one thing that's not subjective is the choice of words, which is why I'm trying to limit it to that. Rest is a matter of perception-- but point taken, if people feel like what I said is similarly offensive than what WW said, then it is similarly offensive. Or more, even, if that's what you think.

On this point though-

You also assert people's reasons for their actions when their reasons are different. This is incredibly patronizing [you're being anti town only because you recently lost a game in a similar situation]

I did that because I believe that's the real reason. I think the quote I brought up from fast proves that at least he thought so-- again, you can't have both. He argued that it's extremely unlikely for masons to fakeclaim; in this game people treat it as plausible. It really seems to be because they lost that game.

[Roadrunner7671]

Oh, by the way, here's my QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/2Fag8657cNHSH
I talk too much.

[Axxle]

Am I crazy? When did ss vote for his partner?

[silverspawn]

Scum isn't looking that closely

Really? I think they would. Yuma even did it as town.

[silverspawn]

Am I crazy? When did ss vote for his partner?

huh... looks like I didn't do that after all. I thought I had. However, chairs voted for me here. And I did say I found him scummy at some point, pretty sure.

[Teproc]

Scum isn't looking that closely

Really? I think they would. Yuma even did it as town.

Disclaimer : I did not follow this game super closely.

But I'm assuming yuma looked at that once you claimed right ? The only reason masons would vote for each other would be to throw scum off to avoid being NKed before claiming, right ? Well I don't think scum is scanning every voting pattern to find masons.

[Teproc]

Right, it serves your plan, I'm dumb. Well, Idisagree with the plan, but if you're going to do it, I guess you should do that. Which is another reason I don't like the plan because it ups the risk of being instalynched.

But hey, it did work out, so maybe it's a great play. Very risky is all.

[Witherweaver]

Right, it serves your plan, I'm dumb. Well, Idisagree with the plan, but if you're going to do it, I guess you should do that. Which is another reason I don't like the plan because it ups the risk of being instalynched.

But hey, it did work out, so maybe it's a great play. Very risky is all.

By that logic the fake Mason play would have been great play, which a lot of people disagreed with.

[silverspawn]

By that logic the fake Mason play would have been great play, which a lot of people disagreed with.

Yes, with that I completely agree. I don't think the plan is good because it worked.

Here is why I decided to do it:

Mason has a very simple motivation for looking scummy: avoiding the NK.
Scum has no motivation for looking scummy. Scum wants to look towny.

And historically, scum!me did not look scummy to most people since I think Dune 2 where I had this horrible scumslip.

So I don't understand why it's crazy to expect town to believe the mason narrative.

[chairs]

Masons are not ICs. They're just not.

Well, everyone treated Masons as ICs before the ash game. I assumed the same standards would apply here.

To be fair, I don't think I've ever been in a game with Masons. And yeah I would treat them as ICs more or less, in the sense that they wouldn't be in my lynch pool, but that's mostly because it puts scum in a position where they have to kill them. If the masons keep not dying, they're not ICs anymore.

The key difference is : you can't just claim in the most scummy way possible and expect people to believe everything you're doing, because you're not an IC. It's a very risky play, one that can work, but can very easily end in you getting lynched.

Voting for you mason partner is wayyyyy overkill too. Scum isn't looking that closely, all it does is make your eventual claim way less believable.

So I just want to note that I TOTALLY FORGOT SS WAS MY PARTNER at the time I voted him (D1).

[Witherweaver]

I mean the logic is unsound.  The thing that creates an IC is a Mason getting NKd or lynched, or being town enough on their own right to be believed.  The plan just... debases its own support by construction.

[Witherweaver]

I mean the logic is unsound.  The thing that creates an IC is a Mason getting NKd or lynched, or being town enough on their own right to be believed.  The plan just... debases its own support by construction.

Well maybe I shouldn't say the logic is unsound; I suppose it's the premise that is.

[silverspawn]

I mean the logic is unsound.  The thing that creates an IC is a Mason getting NKd or lynched, or being town enough on their own right to be believed.  The plan just... debases its own support by construction.

I just don't think that's remotely true. I think the bulk of the thing that makes masons towny is that two people are vouching for each other. That alone is enough to make them very likely town - maybe 90% or something - because it is so ultra risky for scum to bind two players together-- AND it's even more risky in asher9++ because you're mathematically out if there are too many PR's flying around.

It does depend on the number of players. Had we lynched town day 1, I'd have claimed day 2, because then, if you do it day 3 after four town are dead, suddenly it's a plausible strategy. But with scum being lynched day 1, it's bad again.

[silverspawn]

plausible or bad for scum, I mean. I had to claim while the scum narrative isn't likely.

[Witherweaver]

I mean the logic is unsound.  The thing that creates an IC is a Mason getting NKd or lynched, or being town enough on their own right to be believed.  The plan just... debases its own support by construction.

I just don't think that's remotely true. I think the bulk of the thing that makes masons towny is that two people are vouching for each other. That alone is enough to make them very likely town - maybe 90% or something - because it is so ultra risky for scum to bind two players together-- AND it's even more risky in asher9++ because you're mathematically out if there are too many PR's flying around.

It does depend on the number of players. Had we lynched town day 1, I'd have claimed day 2, because then, if you do it day 3 after four town are dead, suddenly it's a plausible strategy. But with scum being lynched day 1, it's bad again.

As scum you know whether a claim is safe or not.  If we had solved the setup to the extent where we could show claiming Masons would not be safe for scum, then they'd be much more likely believed.

All these points can be used to support fake claiming Masons.  If you and Chairs were scum here, RR and Awaclus were perfect mislynch candidates for the gambit to pay off.

A lot of it would have been avoided if the scummy Gkrieg hammer didn't happen.

[Witherweaver]

The big thing that helped in this game was Axxle being an IC and supporting the claim.  (I guess he saw something I and Yuma did not)  That and RR being scum and doing that UB claim.  (No offense to RR, but I think that was a big mistake.)

[Roadrunner7671]

The big thing that helped in this game was Axxle being an IC and supporting the claim.  (I guess he saw something I and Yuma did not)  That and RR being scum and doing that UB claim.  (No offense to RR, but I think that was a big mistake.)

So do I.

[Witherweaver]

Actually I think without Axxle this whole thing could have gone differently.

[silverspawn]

I mean the logic is unsound.  The thing that creates an IC is a Mason getting NKd or lynched, or being town enough on their own right to be believed.  The plan just... debases its own support by construction.

I just don't think that's remotely true. I think the bulk of the thing that makes masons towny is that two people are vouching for each other. That alone is enough to make them very likely town - maybe 90% or something - because it is so ultra risky for scum to bind two players together-- AND it's even more risky in asher9++ because you're mathematically out if there are too many PR's flying around.

It does depend on the number of players. Had we lynched town day 1, I'd have claimed day 2, because then, if you do it day 3 after four town are dead, suddenly it's a plausible strategy. But with scum being lynched day 1, it's bad again.

As scum you know whether a claim is safe or not.

That is not true. As scum, you know exactly one of the below:

- There are 5 or 6 Ts
- There are 3 or 4 Ts
- There are 2 or 1 or 0 Ts

In this case they knew the second point: There are either 3 or 4 T's.

Fakeclaiming 'subtracts' from the amount of Ts there are after a massclaim. If there is

- No Universal Backup: it subtracts by 1
- A universal Backup, it subtracts by 3.

Subtracting by 3 is deadly, because that presents town with either a 0 T or a 1 T setup. Both are unlikely enough that town should probably not consider the possibility that they happened and rather lynch one of the PRs. If the other PR's are confirmed, the masons are dead.

If there is no universal backup and there are 4 real T's, then scum is fine. If there is no universal backup and there are 3 T's, then it's a stretch; 2 T's are unlikely but not monumentally unlikely compared to 3 or 4.

[silverspawn]

The other important point is that there is no reason to lynch one of the masons before at LyLo. Literally zero- I said this a million times in the game thread, and it's 100% true. So even if town assumes masons are lying, you still have a shot at lynching one player, and if he flips scum, you're fine.

[Witherweaver]

So, as scum you know...

[yuma]

Scum isn't looking that closely

Really? I think they would. Yuma even did it as town.

I did it after the fact when assessing your claim. And I think the proble wasn't so much that you voted for each other but that you refused to reveal your partner in conjunction with voting for each other. If you had come forward right out of the gate with chairs stating why he voted for you and showing your breadcrumbs instead of trying to be tricky about it, it would have been a lot more believable and once I saw that chairs was your partner and connected dots I did in fact back off and more or less hesitantly believed you. After all I wanted to lynch RR/awaclus... Not you as the day progressed.

[Axxle]

The other important point is that there is no reason to lynch one of the masons before at LyLo. Literally zero- I said this a million times in the game thread, and it's 100% true. So even if town assumes masons are lying, you still have a shot at lynching one player, and if he flips scum, you're fine.

There is one reason: you don't trust the rest of the town to lynch masons in lylo if youre not around to advocate it and expect to die that night.

[Axxle]

So, as scum you know...

I don't see how scum can know it's safe to claim masons

[yuma]

The big thing that helped in this game was Axxle being an IC and supporting the claim.  (I guess he saw something I and Yuma did not)  That and RR being scum and doing that UB claim.  (No offense to RR, but I think that was a big mistake.)

Axxle came in after SS had claimed to be with chairs. We fought SS before he claimed his partner but backed off once that was revealed... At least I did... I think you did to an extent to...

[Witherweaver]

So, as scum you know...

I don't see how scum can know it's safe to claim masons

By "safe" I mean, "can't be counterclaimed". 

[Axxle]

So, as scum you know...

I don't see how scum can know it's safe to claim masons

Oh, I guess after the vig and roleblocker kill they would have a good guess that it was safe.

[Witherweaver]

The big thing that helped in this game was Axxle being an IC and supporting the claim.  (I guess he saw something I and Yuma did not)  That and RR being scum and doing that UB claim.  (No offense to RR, but I think that was a big mistake.)

Axxle came in after SS had claimed to be with chairs. We fought SS before he claimed his partner but backed off once that was revealed... At least I did... I think you did to an extent to...

I had ended up finding RR scummier for the interactions with SS.  The partner reveal didn't do a lot for me, since I had no real read on Chairs.

[Witherweaver]

So, as scum you know...

I don't see how scum can know it's safe to claim masons

Oh, I guess after the vig and roleblocker kill they would have a good guess that it was safe.

The scum roles give scum the number of PRs to within 1 in a fixed direction, or in the special case of 0T's I guess they know exactly that.

[silverspawn]

Well if you include human fallacy then nothing is ever 100%. But even if you do that I don't think it matters as the reason is never strong enough to actually do it. Even with Awaclus arguing so strongly against it, town didn't do it.

Let me put it like this: if I opened a threat saying:

You have 7 players alive, 2 claimed masons, 5 wildcards. 2 goons are hiding among them, no other PRs. What is the optimal strategy for town?

I cannot imagine that the consensus is not 'lynch one of the 5 wildcards first, then decide if you want to lynch a mason tomorrow'

[silverspawn]

So, as scum you know...

I don't see how scum can know it's safe to claim masons

Oh, I guess after the vig and roleblocker kill they would have a good guess that it was safe.

What? No! Look at my analysis. Scum at that point did not know whether or not an UB exists. If so, they are effectively counter claimed by pretending to have a setup with 0 or 1 Ts. It is objectively not safe to claim.

[Axxle]

So, as scum you know...

I don't see how scum can know it's safe to claim masons

Oh, I guess after the vig and roleblocker kill they would have a good guess that it was safe.

What? No! Look at my analysis. Scum at that point did not know whether or not an UB exists. If so, they are effectively counter claimed by pretending to have a setup with 0 or 1 Ts. It is objectively not safe to claim.

There is a *huge* difference between unlikely and impossible. As long as you fakeclaim right, a certain town can and will believe you.

[silverspawn]

well given that many people here reject maths to different degrees I can't claim that you're right. Still, it is clearly not 'safe'.

[silverspawn]

*that you're wrong

[A Drowned Kernel]

We knew there was no ub cuz our strongman was one shot so MMM was impossible

[Axxle]

We knew there was no ub cuz our strongman was one shot so MMM was impossible

Yeah, it was safe to fakeclaim UB, but I think we're arguing if it was safe for scum to fakeclaim masons if ss and chairs were scum.

[Axxle]

well given that many people here reject maths to different degrees I can't claim that you're right. Still, it is clearly not 'safe'.

I guess we're just arguing the semantics of "safe". I agree with you it's a very risky play.

[silverspawn]

We knew there was no ub cuz our strongman was one shot so MMM was impossible

Wait... wait. waitwaitwaitwait. No. What we're discussing right now doesn't make sense. Whether or not there is an UB depends on the Masons.

So here is the deal. If there is no UB, that confirms the masons, because a single M roll is the only way there is no UB. So, in your scenario where there are no masons and scum wants to fakeclaim them, there is always an UB. In a scenario where there is an M and scum fakeclaims masons, you have two claimed mason teams.

So it always subtracts 3 T's, meaning that scum can only fakeclaim if there are 5 or 6 real Ts around.

[silverspawn]

As seen in this game: there were masons, scum fakeclaimed UB - same probabilities - I immediately called RR scum despite having had a town read on him.

[faust]

At no point in this debate did I get the impression that silver is actually considering being wrong.

[Awaclus]

The other important point is that there is no reason to lynch one of the masons before at LyLo. Literally zero- I said this a million times in the game thread, and it's 100% true. So even if town assumes masons are lying, you still have a shot at lynching one player, and if he flips scum, you're fine.

It is 100% false and it doesn't become true no matter how many times you repeat it without addressing my arguments that actually show why it is false.

[Axxle]

The other important point is that there is no reason to lynch one of the masons before at LyLo. Literally zero- I said this a million times in the game thread, and it's 100% true. So even if town assumes masons are lying, you still have a shot at lynching one player, and if he flips scum, you're fine.

It is 100% false and it doesn't become true no matter how many times you repeat it without addressing my arguments that actually show why it is false.

Can you link those arguments?

[Awaclus]

The other important point is that there is no reason to lynch one of the masons before at LyLo. Literally zero- I said this a million times in the game thread, and it's 100% true. So even if town assumes masons are lying, you still have a shot at lynching one player, and if he flips scum, you're fine.

It is 100% false and it doesn't become true no matter how many times you repeat it without addressing my arguments that actually show why it is false.

Can you link those arguments?

Sure.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14803.msg577444#msg577444
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14803.msg577463#msg577463
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14803.msg578052#msg578052
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14803.msg578066#msg578066

[Witherweaver]

well given that many people here reject maths to different degrees I can't claim that you're right. Still, it is clearly not 'safe'.

This is another example of your implicitly condescending tone.  No one here is 'rejecting maths".  Someone here (you) are attempting to draw invalid conclusions from some tangentially relevant arithmetic.

[silverspawn]

At no point in this debate did I get the impression that silver is actually considering being wrong.

Well I already admitted to being wrong in the manner debate. The other debate; I laid things out in more detail.


Can scum fakeclaim Masons safely?

To simplify, we can assume scum always has full information over the setup. That only benefits them.

Now, different cases:

Case 1: There has been 1 M rolled.

This means there is no Universal Backup and 2 Masons. In a massclaim, there are 2 claimed mason teams. There is no setup with 2 mason teams and no UB, therefore one of the teams must be lying

Case 2: There have been 3 Ms rolled.

This means there is a Universal Backup and 2 Masons. In a massclaim, there are 2 claimed Mason Teams. The only setup that allows for 2 Mason teams is MMMMMM. If any other PR has claimed, you know that someone must be lying. If not, you either play MMMTTT or MMMMMM. Odds that it is MMMMMM = 8/1000 < 1%

Case 3: There have been more than 3 Ms rolled.

In a massclaim, this creates an impossible setup, because the fakeclaim requires 3 Ms and there are only 6.

Case 4: There's been 2 or 0 M's rolled.

Here we have a UB and no real masons. In a massclaim, the setup that town is presented with has exactly 3 fewer Ts than the real Setup.

So if the real Setup has

0 or 1 or 2 Ts -> impossible
3 Ts -> Two setups presented are {the3PRs}MMM vs {same3PRs}TTT. Odds for the first are again 8/1000
4 Ts -> Two setups presented are {the2PRs}MMMT vs {same2PRs}TTTT. Odds for the first one are 32/1000 = 3,2%
5+ Ts -> a much higher number

Conclusion:

Scum can only fakeclaim masons safely in a setup with 5 or 6 Ts. In other setups, it is either guaranteed or extremely likely that one claimed PR is lying.

... okay?

[silverspawn]

well given that many people here reject maths to different degrees I can't claim that you're right. Still, it is clearly not 'safe'.

This is another example of your implicitly condescending tone.  No one here is 'rejecting maths".  Someone here (you) are attempting to draw invalid conclusions from some tangentially relevant arithmetic.

I'm sorry, I've come across numerous examples of people rejecting maths and its implications in mafia.

[Witherweaver]

We already knew all this long ago when I said that Mafia knows whether or not they can safely claim. 

[Witherweaver]

The calculations involved here, like every other time, are highly irrelevant, because they take into account none of the other information available.  It's, basically, ignoring thousands of posts of information and pretending the given game state only depends on two or three posts.

[Witherweaver]

And really can we stop calling this math every time it comes up?  Because it isn't.

[silverspawn]

We already knew all this long ago when I said that Mafia knows whether or not they can safely claim.

So do you agree with what I said? One thing that means is that scum could not fakeclaim safely in the game that we just played.

[silverspawn]

The calculations involved here, like every other time, are highly irrelevant, because they take into account none of the other information available.  It's, basically, ignoring thousands of posts of information and pretending the given game state only depends on two or three posts.

See: this is what I mean when I say players are rejecting maths. I didn't say they do it for no reason. Obviously they think they have a reason. But they are rejecting it, so why are you calling me out for saying it? I also reject things. I won't call you out if you say that I reject religion. Your quote above is you rejecting my maths.

Anyway. The reason why this all works despite ignoring all the other stuff you talk about is that all the other stuff does is amount to reads. Reads only change accuracy by a few percent from what is statistically random.

So let's say the statistically random is 50% and you have a strong read on someone. Let's say that the chance for your read to be wrong is only 1 in 5. That is a super accurate read. If town had those reads, we would win almost every game. But let's say that you have it.

Now let's say that the read favors the player who is being discriminated by the setup. Now you have a 1/5 = 20% chance for your read to be inaccurate, and on the other side a 3% chance for the setup to have rolled the unlikely way. And you know one of those is true. The odds that the setup ended up rolling the inaccurate way is 3%/20% = 15%.

This is how it works. This is why it works. Denying that is rejecting maths. And you do not even have this level of accuracy in normal reads.

[Axxle]

We already knew all this long ago when I said that Mafia knows whether or not they can safely claim.

So do you agree with what I said? One thing that means is that scum could not fakeclaim safely in the game that we just played.

Look, I don't think any of us actually care if it was "safe" or not, just if it's possible. This is because Mafia is a psychology game not a math game.

Also, not everyone can follow complicated math that well (including me). I keep reading your math posts but it seems like you keep using variables that don't matter. Like why include the cases with 0,1,2 T? Of course scum can't fakeclaim masons there. Why include 5 or 6 Ts? You claimed day 3 when everyone knew of the B and V rolls. Like I read it and am concerned that you're pulling the wool over my eyes somehow.

[Witherweaver]

I am not rejecting math.  Math is about understanding the essence of something.  What you are doing is not math.

[silverspawn]

We already knew all this long ago when I said that Mafia knows whether or not they can safely claim.

So do you agree with what I said? One thing that means is that scum could not fakeclaim safely in the game that we just played.

Look, I don't think any of us actually care if it was "safe" or not, just if it's possible. This is because Mafia is a psychology game not a math game.

Also, not everyone can follow complicated math that well (including me). I keep reading your math posts but it seems like you keep using variables that don't matter. Like why include the cases with 0,1,2 T? Of course scum can't fakeclaim masons there. Why include 5 or 6 Ts? You claimed day 3 when everyone knew of the B and V rolls. Like I read it and am concerned that you're pulling the wool over my eyes somehow.

well I wanted to be thorough, accounting for all cases. And I'm not even that good at maths. I make mistakes all the time; SP and Egork are both much better than I am. But I at least understand the principle.

You or anyone else doesn't have to follow it, but when WW accuses the pan of being bad and then faust accuses me having confirmation bias, well what am I supposed to do? I can either just take it or provide evidence for the contrary. I believe in evidence.

Also, the latest point of debate with WW is a recurring theme that has been relevant a lot of times in the past. Someone makes a math argument, someone else says that doesn't work because you're ignoring this and that, I've heard it before. You can weigh reads and setup probabilities against each other, that's why setup probabilities that are so clear should be treated identically to proofs. 97% should almost always be treated as 100% in this context. I guarantee you that it would lead to better results if everyone did it.

I am not rejecting math.  Math is about understanding the essence of something.  What you are doing is not math.

believe what you want then

[yuma]

The calculations involved here, like every other time, are highly irrelevant, because they take into account none of the other information available.  It's, basically, ignoring thousands of posts of information and pretending the given game state only depends on two or three posts.

You kept accusing me of this.... Except... I was taking into consideration those posts, as were others. And then applying the math to it. I don't know why you felt I wasn't? Maybe because I wasn't agreeing with you so thereby I must not have been taking into consideration the math?

I don't know. That really isn't fair.

[ashersky]

I don't know, or particularly care, if the "math" is math, or even right.

If there is a 3% chance that something occurred, and I decide as scum to try to convince everyone that it happened, that's a valid, if reckless plan.

If I'm town in the same scenario, does it make me more likely scum because it only happens 3% of the time?  Nope.  When I'm town, I'm town.  And yet, regardless of reads and play, ss's argument would be to lynch me as a fake claimant.

And if I fake claim town as scum (higher probability of rolling town than anything else) you don't automatically buy that just because of math.

I think that's the point "against math."

[Awaclus]

If I'm town in the same scenario, does it make me more likely scum because it only happens 3% of the time?  Nope.  When I'm town, I'm town.  And yet, regardless of reads and play, ss's argument would be to lynch me as a fake claimant.

The point is that the expected number of correct lynches when you lynch you in that situation is 0.97. That's like 2-4 times the expected number of correct lynches when lynching someone else in that situation. 3% of the time, it ends up being a bad idea, but simply because it is a good idea 97% of the time, it's worth doing every time unless there is an extremely good reason to believe otherwise.

[ashersky]

If I'm town in the same scenario, does it make me more likely scum because it only happens 3% of the time?  Nope.  When I'm town, I'm town.  And yet, regardless of reads and play, ss's argument would be to lynch me as a fake claimant.

The point is that the expected number of correct lynches when you lynch you in that situation is 0.97. That's like 2-4 times the expected number of correct lynches when lynching someone else in that situation. 3% of the time, it ends up being a bad idea, but simply because it is a good idea 97% of the time, it's worth doing every time unless there is an extremely good reason to believe otherwise.

So could you just figure out the percentages for every player in a given game and then lynch by number?

[faust]

If I'm town in the same scenario, does it make me more likely scum because it only happens 3% of the time?  Nope.  When I'm town, I'm town.  And yet, regardless of reads and play, ss's argument would be to lynch me as a fake claimant.

The point is that the expected number of correct lynches when you lynch you in that situation is 0.97. That's like 2-4 times the expected number of correct lynches when lynching someone else in that situation. 3% of the time, it ends up being a bad idea, but simply because it is a good idea 97% of the time, it's worth doing every time unless there is an extremely good reason to believe otherwise.

So could you just figure out the percentages for every player in a given game and then lynch by number?

That's pretty much how the game is played, though we usually call it "scum points".

[ashersky]

If I'm town in the same scenario, does it make me more likely scum because it only happens 3% of the time?  Nope.  When I'm town, I'm town.  And yet, regardless of reads and play, ss's argument would be to lynch me as a fake claimant.

The point is that the expected number of correct lynches when you lynch you in that situation is 0.97. That's like 2-4 times the expected number of correct lynches when lynching someone else in that situation. 3% of the time, it ends up being a bad idea, but simply because it is a good idea 97% of the time, it's worth doing every time unless there is an extremely good reason to believe otherwise.

So could you just figure out the percentages for every player in a given game and then lynch by number?

That's pretty much how the game is played, though we usually call it "scum points".

I know you are joking, but that's basically the opposite of what I said, right?

To use the ss/Awaclus (SAwaspawn) method, in a game of asher9++, full claim from the beginning, run the percentages for each player's claim, lynch the least likely until you win.  Right?  Why even play?  Just have a script do it for you.

[yuma]

If I'm town in the same scenario, does it make me more likely scum because it only happens 3% of the time?  Nope.  When I'm town, I'm town.  And yet, regardless of reads and play, ss's argument would be to lynch me as a fake claimant.

The point is that the expected number of correct lynches when you lynch you in that situation is 0.97. That's like 2-4 times the expected number of correct lynches when lynching someone else in that situation. 3% of the time, it ends up being a bad idea, but simply because it is a good idea 97% of the time, it's worth doing every time unless there is an extremely good reason to believe otherwise.

So could you just figure out the percentages for every player in a given game and then lynch by number?

That's pretty much how the game is played, though we usually call it "scum points".

I know you are joking, but that's basically the opposite of what I said, right?

To use the ss/Awaclus (SAwaspawn) method, in a game of asher9++, full claim from the beginning, run the percentages for each player's claim, lynch the least likely until you win.  Right?  Why even play?  Just have a script do it for you.

Because the more optimally way to play is what we did here... Wait to claim until later when the math is more meaningful because it is backed up by reality--confirmed flips--and then combine that math with the thousand of posts that were made for an accurate read on the game.

People keep reflecting on to ss's run of this game to show their point. But that game in fact proved both points. At least for me. Cause in that game I ignored both  my gut read and math (because I was using bad math). This time we combined them intelligently and it worked out great.

[ashersky]

If I'm town in the same scenario, does it make me more likely scum because it only happens 3% of the time?  Nope.  When I'm town, I'm town.  And yet, regardless of reads and play, ss's argument would be to lynch me as a fake claimant.

The point is that the expected number of correct lynches when you lynch you in that situation is 0.97. That's like 2-4 times the expected number of correct lynches when lynching someone else in that situation. 3% of the time, it ends up being a bad idea, but simply because it is a good idea 97% of the time, it's worth doing every time unless there is an extremely good reason to believe otherwise.

So could you just figure out the percentages for every player in a given game and then lynch by number?

That's pretty much how the game is played, though we usually call it "scum points".

I know you are joking, but that's basically the opposite of what I said, right?

To use the ss/Awaclus (SAwaspawn) method, in a game of asher9++, full claim from the beginning, run the percentages for each player's claim, lynch the least likely until you win.  Right?  Why even play?  Just have a script do it for you.

Because the more optimally way to play is what we did here... Wait to claim until later when the math is more meaningful because it is backed up by reality--confirmed flips--and then combine that math with the thousand of posts that were made for an accurate read on the game.

People keep reflecting on to ss's run of this game to show their point. But that game in fact proved both points. At least for me. Cause in that game I ignored both  my gut read and math (because I was using bad math). This time we combined them intelligently and it worked out great.

Then, would a better way to use the SAwaspawn Method be X number of random lynches to confirm flips, then a forced mass claim, then lynches by percentages?

I'm just trying to prove SAwaspawn's point that reality, scum hunting, thoughts, feelings, or humans really don't matter.

[yuma]

I'm just trying to prove SAwaspawn's point that reality, scum hunting, thoughts, feelings, or humans really don't matter.

Well I don't think they (I guess they can speak for themselves) would agree that is their point and neither would I, nor do I agree with it.

What I am seeing is a lot of talking past each other...

[ashersky]

I'm just trying to prove SAwaspawn's point that reality, scum hunting, thoughts, feelings, or humans really don't matter.

Well I don't think they (I guess they can speak for themselves) would agree that is their point and neither would I, nor do I agree with it.

What I am seeing is a lot of talking past each other...

Dunno, Awaclus just said a 97% probability is enough to ignore all other factors.

If a person can specifically pinpoint the exact probability of a claim being a lie, why wouldn't you just do that and be done with it?  Assume a game of 12 players, and Awaclus and silverspawn do the math and come up with:

Player 1: 85.256%
Player 2: 82.14356%
Player 3: 73.1234%
Player 4: 66.232093%
Player 5: 65.4342111%
Player 6: 62.2313%
Player 7: 55.25162%
Player 8: 34.65235462%
Player 9: 31.2524673%
Player 10: 22.46562342%
Player 11: 9.243536%
Player 12: 1.3573%

Where the percentages are the chance they are lying.  Just do that at the start of each game, lynch from the top of the list, probably hit all scum before running out of mislynches, right?

That's what I understand to be their point: If the math is correct, reads and feelings do not matter.

[Awaclus]

Player 1: 85.256%
Player 2: 82.14356%
Player 3: 73.1234%
Player 4: 66.232093%
Player 5: 65.4342111%
Player 6: 62.2313%
Player 7: 55.25162%
Player 8: 34.65235462%
Player 9: 31.2524673%
Player 10: 22.46562342%
Player 11: 9.243536%
Player 12: 1.3573%

Where the percentages are the chance they are lying.  Just do that at the start of each game, lynch from the top of the list, probably hit all scum before running out of mislynches, right?

That's what I understand to be their point: If the math is correct, reads and feelings do not matter.

Well, if those were the percentages, then you could pretty much just do that. The problem is that you won't get percentages like that. Instead, the vast majority of the time, you will get percentages that are close enough to the 1/4 that every player already has anyway that it would only be a very marginal factor in determining who is the best lynch.

Reads and feelings do matter. If someone has, say, a 40% chance of lying but a very consistent town narrative while someone else has a 10% chance of lying but has done something that questionably shows that he doesn't have the information that he's claiming to have or has information that he has claimed not to have or that he's playing against the win con he has claimed to have, it might be correct to lynch the latter player if the former player's town narrative makes him ~1/2 times as likely to be lying as he otherwise would and the latter player's scumminess makes him ~3 times as likely to be lying.

However, if someone has a 40% chance of lying while someone else has a 3% chance of lying, you would have to read the latter person as being 13 times as likely to be scum as the former person to just make up for the mathematical odds. That's, like, the kind of read you can only have when a claimed Mason has voted for the other claimed Mason, or other similar practically-confirmed-scum situation. And sure, I would lynch the claimed Masons in that case, but I wouldn't lynch them only because one of them has been slightly scummier than the 40% chance of lying person.

[yuma]

How many versions of this game have been played?

Adventure Time - Town won - Cop, 1-shot Doctor, Universal Backup (CCE)
Homeland Mafia - Mafia won - 1-shot Vigilante, 1-shot Cop, Innocent Child, Universal Backup (VCMM)
Holiday Mafia - Town won - 1-shot Cop, 1-shot Doctor, Doctor, Universal Backup (CDD)?
Pony-Mafia - Town won - Innocent Child, Roleblocker, Universal Backup (MMB)
Fanficton - Mafia won - Roleblocker, Doctor, Universal Backup (BD)
Scout Mafia - Town won - Roleblocker, 1-shot Vig, Masons (BVM)

4 town wins to 2 scum. Any others that I missed?

[iguanaiguana]

Am I crazy? When did ss vote for his partner?

huh... looks like I didn't do that after all. I thought I had. However, chairs voted for me here. And I did say I found him scummy at some point, pretty sure.

You know what, didn't Chairs post in his QT that he forgot you were both masons for most of that day?

[Axxle]

So I just want to note that I TOTALLY FORGOT SS WAS MY PARTNER at the time I voted him (D1).

[iguanaiguana]

 

[2.71828.....]

[post deleted because it h=may not have been the pbest thing to post]

[gkrieg13]

[post deleted because it h=may not have been the pbest thing to post]

Are you drunk right now?

[2.71828.....]

but srlsy.  guys.  thicker skiins please.  I hate having civiility issues in my games.  it is just a game.

also, math is cool.  and math was correct....this game.  mafia is not about the odds though.  it is about the gut.  although maybe thatis bywh my lynch rate is so awful

[2.71828.....]

[post deleted because it h=may not have been the pbest thing to post]

Are you drunk right now?

What?  yes

[Axxle]

E for excellent mod

[faust]

E for excellent mod

Would have been even better had he been drunk the whole time.

[silverspawn]

Am I crazy? When did ss vote for his partner?

huh... looks like I didn't do that after all. I thought I had. However, chairs voted for me here. And I did say I found him scummy at some point, pretty sure.

You know what, didn't Chairs post in his QT that he forgot you were both masons for most of that day?

I honestly think (though I don't remember it exactly) that I'd have voted for him had he not voted for me by accident, though. pretty sure I wanted for one of us to vote the other from the start. so I'm still guilty!

[2.71828.....]

Sorry, I am way behind in everything.  Ash, I promise I will get an mvp and do that while historical record thing for this game.

Eventually

[yuma]

Sorry, I am way behind in everything.  Ash, I promise I will get an mvp and do that while historical record thing for this game.

Eventually

How about a sneak preview of the mod QT? I always enjoy reading about a mod berating town for being silly...

[2.71828.....]

Sorry, I am way behind in everything.  Ash, I promise I will get an mvp and do that while historical record thing for this game.

Eventually

How about a sneak preview of the mod QT? I always enjoy reading about a mod berating town for being silly...

It also has all the links to all other QTs contained within it
http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/54aEurt5rfUFq

[XerxesPraelor]

I assume the game is done now - I'm pretty sure silverspawn is right here.

To address ashersky's point, the SAwaspawn method of asher9++ is bad because you can do better than it by using scum tells etc and general scumminess. But you shouldn't throw the percentages away - you just take the percentages as a starting point, and then work from there. If there were no day, and each player just sent their votes in to the mod, the SAwaspawn method would be close to being the best method (there's still some WIFOM, but it's closer). The thing is, though, what people do during the day changes the subjective probability that they are scum, and you have to take that stuff into accound.

[liopoil]

I haven't read everything, but I am leaning towards witherweaver when he says that the arithmatic is not relevent. Example:

There are two potential town power roles, one which has a 50-50 shot of being in the game, another which only has a 3% chance of being in the game. Someone gets to L-1 and claims the 3% role. This, in a vacuum, is meaningless. The only way to use the 3% figure quantitatively would be to take into account the whole setup and do a truly infeasible calculation. It certainly doesn't mean that there is a 97% chance they are lying. No, the only practical way to use it is to (depending on context, but probably) consider it as a 'very scummy' thing. Possibly this means lynching them for sure, but again, it completely depends.

I may have just constructed a strawman for what the other people are arguing, but the main point is that you have to be really careful with all the conditionals and givens, and usually that means you don't get anything meaningful.

[liopoil]

Wait, what? Don't lynch claimed masons until lylo or they are scum for suresies. Is that really what this was all about? Dice Mafia all over again... Arch and I lost that one because we didn't consider trying to get Masons mislynched.

[scott_pilgrim]

The probability should be the base chance that you're looking at.  If there's a 97% chance you're scum, independently of reads, then that's where you start from when you take reads into account.  I hope everyone can agree on that, since it's basically true just by definition.  The question is how big of difference reads should play.  I don't think pretty much any "soft" evidence could ever persuade me not to lynch someone who has a 97% "base" chance of being scum, because it's nearly impossible for someone to prove they're town.  I could conceivably be convinced to lynch someone who has a 3% "base" chance of being scum, but they'd have to come pretty close to just admitting they're scum.

What silverspawn is arguing (and I agree) is that people in general put way too much weight in reads.  It's way too easy to talk yourself into something, people are full of biases and really a lot of the time it's basically just a shot in the dark.  My intuition says that people should be looking at differences of like +/-20% based on reads, not like +/-100% which is basically what most people do, from what I can tell (just ignore probabilistic evidence or treat it like it's insignificant in comparison to their reads).  Unfortunately there's no way to support this claim (or the opposite), without testing it over thousands of games, which is completely impractical.

Wait, what? Don't lynch claimed masons until lylo or they are scum for suresies. Is that really what this was all about? Dice Mafia all over again... Arch and I lost that one because we didn't consider trying to get Masons mislynched.

Were you there for the asher++ game where scum claimed masons and won because town didn't do/trust probability?  There was like a 3% chance they were town, but people talked themselves into it because...I don't know why really.  I wasn't paying much attention to the game, but it was so painful to watch everyone ignore the overwhelming evidence.  Like at that point they're basically confirmed scum, but people don't care because it "feels" like they're town.

[ashersky]

I want to say this (again) regarding gkrieg13 and I pulling of the scum mason fakeclaim -- everyone keeps saying "oh pathetically stupid town" and never says "incredibly ballsy and impressive scum" when referring to it

We didn't pull it off just because players ignored probability numbers.  We gave them reasons to believe in the improbable through our words -- that which makes up mafia games.

Yes, the reads were wrong.  I think we (especially gkrieg13, who claimed first and on D1) deserve credit for making them wrong.

[liopoil]

I didn't see that game, but it wiuld be very silly indeed not to lynch the masons at lylo in that case, and it would take ridiculously strong incorrect reads to override that. If the town did have that, good job scum, but my guess is that they just messed up.

scott_pilgrim, the thing is that there isn't a 97% chance of them being scum, even independent of reads. There's significant WIFOM and other complications involved. 97% of the time the role doesn't exist. Say 47/97 of those times, scum fakeclaims, and town always claim. Now there's a 47/50 chance they are lying, given they claimed, which is 94%. That 47 number came from nowhere though; it's usually lower, and hard to estimate. That's why the 97% figure is very misleading and usually entirely irrellevant to the game.

It's still very scummy to claim a role unlikely to be in the game, and in the case of masons, should usually be lynched in lylo because of it.

[liopoil]

I think I agree that people put too much faith in reads, but you can't go around assigning mathematical probabilities of being scum without some serious assumptions.

[Witherweaver]

Were you there for the asher++ game where scum claimed masons and won because town didn't do/trust probability?  There was like a 3% chance they were town, but people talked themselves into it because...I don't know why really.  I wasn't paying much attention to the game, but it was so painful to watch everyone ignore the overwhelming evidence.  Like at that point they're basically confirmed scum, but people don't care because it "feels" like they're town.

The evidence here was not the probability that that setup was rolled; the evidence was how they played.

The issue with peddling out setup arithmetic is that it's distracting from the actual game itself. 

[ashersky]

Sorry, I am way behind in everything.  Ash, I promise I will get an mvp and do that while historical record thing for this game.

Eventually

Any updates on this front?

[2.71828.....]

Yes. All the games I am in are complete. I will do this before another game starts

[iguanaiguana]

Yes. All the games I am in are complete. I will do this before another game starts

Not true bro, you are in bracket wars II.

[2.71828.....]

Going with my initial gut reaction:

MVP is silverspawn

I thought his play as a mason was very well done, even if it caused some controversy. The D1 scum lynch was obviously critical to town's success, but having all the ICs at the end of the game won it.

[silverspawn]

yaay!

thanks.