Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL  (Read 6702 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8154
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9525
    • View Profile
Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« on: February 19, 2016, 11:32:26 am »
+9


Heh.  Ball.

Sort of Alms's big brother, I guess.  Get TWO cheap things for the price of more than a cheap thing, plus some Overload.

-What s make this worth it?
-Compare and Contrast with Summon in 500 words or less.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1338
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2016, 11:41:04 am »
+1

Are you kidding? Summon is crazily better than this card. Who wants $4 cards? And two of them? I'd rather open Sea Hag and play it before my first shuffle then getting two of them and ruining my next hand, thank you very much.
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1068
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 11:45:44 am »
+4

Mmmm, two Caravans for $5.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 598
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1376
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 11:53:25 am »
0

Ball is better than I initially gave it credit for.  Ball is best used to gain 4-cost engine pieces that you want in the midgame, like Throne Room, Conspirator, Procession, Herald, and Advisor.  Of course, Ball is more valuable if there is no other way to gain multiple cards per turn.  It is a useless event on a sizable fraction of boards, though.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2310
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2016, 11:56:50 am »
+6

Maybe good on a 5/2 opening with no good $5s and where you weren't planning on buying anything with $2 on Turn 2. Nice with cost reducers.

Actually, you can compare this to Stonemason. With $6, you can get a Stonemason and two $4s. With Ball, you pay for one of those 6 coins next turn, but you don't need to add a Stonemason to your deck. Ball's gaining isn't conditional on taking the -$1 token, so you can buy multiple Balls on the same turn without taking the -$1 token after the first purchase of the event.
Logged

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 598
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1376
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 12:05:53 pm »
0

Ball's gaining isn't conditional on taking the -$1 token, so you can buy multiple Balls on the same turn without taking the -$1 token after the first purchase of the event.
Oh, yeah.  I forgot about this (even though I used it recently).  When Ball is good, a double Ball with 10 coins and an extra buy is really good.  I think I picked up four Advisors with this in a recent game to win the split.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8154
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9525
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2016, 12:14:46 pm »
+9

Ball's gaining isn't conditional on taking the -$1 token, so you can buy multiple Balls on the same turn without taking the -$1 token after the first purchase of the event.
Oh, yeah.  I forgot about this (even though I used it recently).  When Ball is good, a double Ball with 10 coins and an extra buy is really good.  I think I picked up four Advisors with this in a recent game to win the split.

This reminds me of something I was thinking about recently:

0 Advisors: Good for your deck
1-2 Advisors: Bad for your deck
4+ Advisors: Draw your deck
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5342
  • Respect: +21678
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2016, 12:18:39 pm »
+6

Heh.  Ball.
Ball was the name of Madman when it was a supply card. So man I have heard that joke a lot.

-What s make this worth it?
Well you especially use it on VP and cantrips. But I mean, if you want whatever $4's, it's a fine way to get them. I have gotten cheaper cards with it too.

-Compare and Contrast with Summon in 500 words or less.
If the card you want two of is Workshop, and you won't be shuffling this turn, then you can Summon a Workshop and next turn Workshop a Workshop, and you didn't get your -$1 token. So, point for Summon. OTOH if the card you want is Gardens, Summon can't even get it. Point for Ball.

It's pretty exciting with cost reduction. When you're going for Provinces with it, the tricky part is, you still need to get to $5 honestly.
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2729
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2947
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 12:20:45 pm »
0

Getting two 5s with cost reduction sounds awesome as well.
Also the interaction with Bridge Troll is pretty interesting.
Logged

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1703
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2016, 12:22:30 pm »
0

This reminds me of Border Village because buying BV basically gets you a $3 (vanilla Village) and a $5, for $6.  Ball is get 2 $4's for $5, so similar concept.  I definitely think Ball can be very worthwhile, as history has proven that buying BV can certainly pay off in many situations.
Logged

amoffett11

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 189
  • Respect: +260
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2016, 12:23:54 pm »
0

Ball's gaining isn't conditional on taking the -$1 token, so you can buy multiple Balls on the same turn without taking the -$1 token after the first purchase of the event.

I've never played Adventures, so I'm not sure on how the rules of the -1 token actually work.  But my understanding would be this:  You buy a Ball for 5.  You take your -1 token, you grab your two Coppersmith.  You buy another ball.  Doesn't this Ball now cost 6?  Because you have your -1 token?  Then you remove the -1 token and activate the event again, and oh look, the first you do is take your -1 token again.  If you want a 3rd ball this turn, its costing 6 again, because you have your -1 token again. 

Again, I've never played Adventures, so I'm not sure on how exactly the -1 token works, but my understanding was that the next thing you buy you must overpay 1 for to remove it. 
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2729
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2947
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2016, 12:25:39 pm »
+1

The -1 coin token makes the next thing that produces at least 1 coin for you produce 1 coin less.
Logged

amoffett11

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 189
  • Respect: +260
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2016, 12:28:18 pm »
+1

OK, so in this case I guess you've already played your 5 gold producing 15 coins so you buy your 3 Balls.  The -1 coin will be removed on your next turn when you play a Gold or an Peddler or whatever, and will just count for 2 or 0 instead of 3 or 1 or whatever the case may be. 
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2310
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2016, 01:06:50 pm »
+1

Ball's gaining isn't conditional on taking the -$1 token, so you can buy multiple Balls on the same turn without taking the -$1 token after the first purchase of the event.
Oh, yeah.  I forgot about this (even though I used it recently).  When Ball is good, a double Ball with 10 coins and an extra buy is really good.  I think I picked up four Advisors with this in a recent game to win the split.

This reminds me of something I was thinking about recently:

0 Advisors: Good for your deck
1-2 Advisors: Bad for your deck
4+ Advisors: Draw your deck

It's reverse Ballmer's peak.
Logged

teamrocketgrunt

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
  • Respect: +175
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2016, 02:17:24 pm »
+3

Logged
Join Team Rocket!

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1003
  • Respect: +704
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2016, 04:43:13 pm »
0

Ball's gaining isn't conditional on taking the -$1 token, so you can buy multiple Balls on the same turn without taking the -$1 token after the first purchase of the event.
Oh, yeah.  I forgot about this (even though I used it recently).  When Ball is good, a double Ball with 10 coins and an extra buy is really good.  I think I picked up four Advisors with this in a recent game to win the split.

This reminds me of something I was thinking about recently:

0 Advisors: Good for your deck
1-2 Advisors: Bad for your deck
4+ Advisors: Draw your deck

Only somewhat.

Advisers are a trade off between how likely are you to see power cards this shuffle vs how fast do you shuffle them back in and any new cards.

Say I have Swindler/Adv as my opening. The odds that I will see my Swindler get discarded off Adv are 3/11. On the flip side, my shuffles go from 2.4 turns down 1.8. Oddly enough the expected number of times I hit my Swindler is going to be ~.4 in both cases (no Adv is about .01 better). Adding in a second Adv increases the odds of my Swindler getting tossed to 5/11, but now my shuffles are around 1.4 hands each. This only drops me down to around .39 Swindlers/hand.

However, as I add more good cards or junk the starting cards I decrease the number of complete whiffs (from Adv hitting 2 good cards) while still shuffling faster. The lower the variance in card value, the better Adv gets. Just buying Silvers will tamp down the the hurt of discarding your best card.

We know 2 Adv cannot be straight bad for your deck ... otherwise we would literally discard coppers over Adv. Sure the is an opportunity cost to having the Adv, but there is also one for Silver.

Similarly 4 Adv alone is normally not quite sufficient to draw deck. You start with 10 cards, each Adv draws draws +1 net (replace the Adv, discard best card, draw +1 card), each hand starts with 5. With a starting hand of 4 Adv, you then will hit 9 cards ... but odds are at least one Adv will be buried so deck drawing waits until you have 5 or 6 ... or some other draw (even things like Cellar and Warehouse).


In general, I have found Ball to be pretty solid if I want to spam stuff at $4, at least once I have gotten my expensive $5s or higher. The $10 double buy is massively worth it often.
Logged

funkdoc

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 472
  • Respect: +414
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2016, 06:04:50 pm »
0

This reminds me of Border Village because buying BV basically gets you a $3 (vanilla Village) and a $5, for $6.  Ball is get 2 $4's for $5, so similar concept.  I definitely think Ball can be very worthwhile, as history has proven that buying BV can certainly pay off in many situations.

heck, a number of strong players rank border village above grand market!  i think i had BV 1 slot above it, and remember someone really good doing the same

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11159
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11827
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2016, 06:16:41 pm »
+1

This reminds me of Border Village because buying BV basically gets you a $3 (vanilla Village) and a $5, for $6.  Ball is get 2 $4's for $5, so similar concept.  I definitely think Ball can be very worthwhile, as history has proven that buying BV can certainly pay off in many situations.

heck, a number of strong players rank border village above grand market!  i think i had BV 1 slot above it, and remember someone really good doing the same

I had it three places higher than Grand Market, so I must be three times as good!
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

wachsmuth

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 266
  • Respect: +342
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2016, 07:19:45 pm »
+1

This reminds me of Border Village because buying BV basically gets you a $3 (vanilla Village) and a $5, for $6.  Ball is get 2 $4's for $5, so similar concept.  I definitely think Ball can be very worthwhile, as history has proven that buying BV can certainly pay off in many situations.

A thing with Border Village is that it's often free. Often you hit $6 and want a $5 anyway, so you get a Village basically basically for free. Or you only have 1 buy anyway. I feel that the situations where Ball is 'free' like that are much rarer, since it has a penalty and you often don't want to buy 4's on 5. It does come up though.
Logged

navical

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 186
  • Respect: +238
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2016, 07:26:45 pm »
0

This reminds me of Border Village because buying BV basically gets you a $3 (vanilla Village) and a $5, for $6.  Ball is get 2 $4's for $5, so similar concept.  I definitely think Ball can be very worthwhile, as history has proven that buying BV can certainly pay off in many situations.

Ball is more like 2 $4s for $6 with the on-buy penalty, no? (Except in the cases where it isn't, of course, but *normally*...)
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4067
  • Respect: +2608
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2016, 08:26:15 pm »
+5

Quite a lot of events give you the benefits on an existing card without having to buy that card and put it in your deck. Not having to buy a talisman seems like a good deal.
Logged

teamrocketgrunt

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
  • Respect: +175
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2016, 09:36:31 pm »
0

Quite a lot of events give you the benefits on an existing card without having to buy that card and put it in your deck. Not having to buy a talisman seems like a good deal.

This. So much this. It's really unrelated, but I played a board today that featured Smithy and Trade. And, man, does Trade spice up Smithy (terminal draw)-BM. I didn't bother letting it actually play against Trading Post (which seems comparable to Trade) + Smithy-BM, but I presume Smithy-BM + Trade would destroy it.

I assume it's possible to calculate how much lower opportunity cost is for Events compared to Supply Cards without too much effort, but if you want a certain effect in the early game I think it's fair to just say: Events > Supply cards.

The same goes for Ball, if compared to a double four-cost gainer like Talisman. Put easily, buying Ball costs skipping a fiver and lowering economy for the next turn. Talisman could have been a Silver which means Talisman will lower your economy for every future shuffle. You'd better have long term plans for Talisman, then.
Logged
Join Team Rocket!

Limetime

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1237
  • Shuffle iT Username: limetime
  • Respect: +1175
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2016, 09:44:35 pm »
0

Quite a lot of events give you the benefits on an existing card without having to buy that card and put it in your deck. Not having to buy a talisman seems like a good deal.

This. So much this. It's really unrelated, but I played a board today that featured Smithy and Trade. And, man, does Trade spice up Smithy (terminal draw)-BM. I didn't bother letting it actually play against Trading Post (which seems comparable to Trade) + Smithy-BM, but I presume Smithy-BM + Trade would destroy it.

I assume it's possible to calculate how much lower opportunity cost is for Events compared to Supply Cards without too much effort, but if you want a certain effect in the early game I think it's fair to just say: Events > Supply cards.

The same goes for Ball, if compared to a double four-cost gainer like Talisman. Put easily, buying Ball costs skipping a fiver and lowering economy for the next turn. Talisman could have been a Silver which means Talisman will lower your economy for every future shuffle. You'd better have long term plans for Talisman, then.
Ball is a one shot unlike talisman though. You don't buy a talisman for one use.
Logged

teamrocketgrunt

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
  • Respect: +175
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2016, 09:50:48 pm »
0

Quite a lot of events give you the benefits on an existing card without having to buy that card and put it in your deck. Not having to buy a talisman seems like a good deal.

This. So much this. It's really unrelated, but I played a board today that featured Smithy and Trade. And, man, does Trade spice up Smithy (terminal draw)-BM. I didn't bother letting it actually play against Trading Post (which seems comparable to Trade) + Smithy-BM, but I presume Smithy-BM + Trade would destroy it.

I assume it's possible to calculate how much lower opportunity cost is for Events compared to Supply Cards without too much effort, but if you want a certain effect in the early game I think it's fair to just say: Events > Supply cards.

The same goes for Ball, if compared to a double four-cost gainer like Talisman. Put easily, buying Ball costs skipping a fiver and lowering economy for the next turn. Talisman could have been a Silver which means Talisman will lower your economy for every future shuffle. You'd better have long term plans for Talisman, then.
Ball is a one shot unlike talisman though. You don't buy a talisman for one use.

That is - although put more concisely - part of what I am saying. At least, I meant to say that. Talisman, when compared to Ball, has to be justified by a long-term investment. Ball is less demanding.
Logged
Join Team Rocket!

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2310
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Adventures EVENTS: BALL
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2016, 11:52:44 am »
0

Quite a lot of events give you the benefits on an existing card without having to buy that card and put it in your deck. Not having to buy a talisman seems like a good deal.

This. So much this. It's really unrelated, but I played a board today that featured Smithy and Trade. And, man, does Trade spice up Smithy (terminal draw)-BM. I didn't bother letting it actually play against Trading Post (which seems comparable to Trade) + Smithy-BM, but I presume Smithy-BM + Trade would destroy it.

I remember one of the playtesters citing Smithy+Trade as one example of why Trade is limited to trashing up to two cards for Silvers per purchase.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.1 seconds with 20 queries.