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[gamesou]

Remember the old good Lucky Chancellor? (if you don't, read that thread first). He's been quite upset to be defeated and retired from Dominion for a few years. However when Dark Ages came out, he got a new friend, the Fortunate Scavenger. They played a bunch of games together, all resulting in ties (usually 27-27, or 24-24 when they used Shelters). So now they start getting a bit bored and challenge you to play a 3-players dominion game and defeat them.

So you have to find a kingdom including Chancellor and Scavenger, and a strategy working 100% of the time which defeats opponents playing Chancellor BM and Scavanger BM. They offer you to start since they are nice guys, but if you win they want a rematch.

In case you defeat them, they'll strike back with their friend from Adventures, the Jammy Messenger (who distributes curses) and you'll have to work harder.

I should say that I don't know if these challenges have solutions, but I'm sure the smart people around will find some.

Also, if you happen to be a playtester, you may use cards/events/landmarks from Empires in your solution (however, consider using spoiler tags for people who prefer to wait for the official leaks). 

[Davio]

Come on, playtesters, solve this one already!

[Chris is me]

So, we use a simulator for this, I guess?

Does Scavenger BM always discard the deck and always top deck Gold, Scavenger, or Silver, in that order of priority?

[gamesou]

So, we use a simulator for this, I guess?

No, you have to give a mathematical proof (or at least convincing evidence) that you always win. See the original thread.

Does Scavenger BM always discard the deck and always top deck Gold, Scavenger, or Silver, in that order of priority?

Scavenger BM is actually not very different from Chancellor BM for this problem. (edge case: the Scavenger may be forced to top-deck a bad card). He always discards the deck, then top-decks and shuffles randomly. He always get maximal luck and optimal shuffles.

[Chris is me]

Scavenger BM is actually not different from Chancellor BM for this problem. He always discards the deck, then shuffles randomly. He always get maximal luck and optimal shuffles.

Scavenger *must* choose a card to go on top of the deck - is this random? I mean, I guess it's the same as perfect shuffle luck - nevermind then!

[gamesou]

Scavenger *must* choose a card to go on top of the deck - is this random?

Yes, he top-decks randomly.

[Roadrunner7671]

Rebuild-Tunnel seems better.

[jomini]

Rebuild-Tunnel seems better.

Not really. For this puzzle we are assuming worst possible luck, as you must always beat the opponents. In that case T3 will be CCCEE and T4 will be CCCCE. T5 will then be RebTunEEE. Even if you can work some magic later, our opponents will be hitting provinces on T4. Game ends on T10 and each of them will have 33 points.

The only real difference here is that you only get until T10

Kingdom:
1. Band of Misfits (Bom)
2. King's Court (Kc)
3. Worker's village (Wv)
4. Scheme (Sch, Bane)
5. Black Market (contains Baker and Young Witch)
6. Militia
7. Peddler (Ped)
8. Chapel (Chap)
9. Stone mason (Stmsn)
10. Chancellor
11. Scavenger

Events:
Alms
Mission

T1: Buy Bom
T2: Buy Scheme
T3/T4: Buy Alms or start trashing sooner: Gain Wv x2
T5: Sch -> Bom (Chap: trash CCCC): buy Alms gain Wv
T6: BomCCCE: Bom (Chap: trash CCCE): buy Alms, gain Wv
T7: At this point deck is Wv x4, Sch, Bom, EE.  Wv x4 -> Sch Bom (Chap: trash EE): buy Ped x5
T8: Play Sch/Wv/Ped until hand is BomPedPedPed: Bom (Stmsn: trash Ped: gain Kc/Masq) -> Ped -> Ped -> Kc -> Masq (pass nothing, trash 3 cards): Buy Mission
T8M: Play Sch/Wv/Ped until hand is BomKcMasqPed: Bom (Militia) -> Ped -> Kc -> Masq (pass nothing, trash 3 cards).

At this point exactly one opponent has exactly 3 cards. He can buy a province by using the Baker coin. Every turn after that you will force the lucky stiffs to discard to 6 cards in total and then burn 6 of them. With Alms, both will be lucky and get a 6/4 start so both of them buy provinces on T3 - T7 for a total of 10 then so we have a 1 province cushion. They will each have 17 cards when you start burning and they will Alms something each turn. This means it will take you 9 turns to kill their decks completely. During that time they will punch out 18 cards which is not enough to pile out the game (24 being the minimum to end it). You can then play two Peds, Kc a Bom(Militia) and then buy the last province for a win.

Going up against a 3rd opponent is going to be tougher. That will end the game after T7 (which will mean getting a Militia on T6 or something else), but worse you need to have 3 useless cards in the kingdom instead of just two duds. Alms will also be toxic as they will burn 50% more cards per turn (3 piling sooner) and you need to kill 9 cards - which will mean another 3 dead Masq plays (most easily done with Outpost, but that is tough to get going ... and takes up another card slot).

[gamesou]

Kingdom:
1. Band of Misfits (Bom)
[...]
10. Chancellor
11. Scavenger

Don't you also need Masquerade in the kingdom ?

Really nice ideas, though !

[faust]

Doesn't any strategy that involves Pillaging every turn break Chancellor/Scavenger? (especially with Jammy Mesenger) We just need to get there in time. I'm sure it's possible, but too late now for me to come up with a good solution. I suggest Summoning Chapel though.

[liopoil]

Doesn't any strategy that involves Pillaging every turn break Chancellor/Scavenger? (especially with Jammy Mesenger) We just need to get there in time. I'm sure it's possible, but too late now for me to come up with a good solution. I suggest Summoning Chapel though.

Nice!

Events: Summon, Alms, Borrow, Mission
Kingdom: Chapel, Black Market, Develop, Scheme, Chancellor, Fortress, Scavenger, Messenger, Nomad Camp, Pillage,
Black Market Deck: Young Witch, Baker, Masquerade, Militia, King's Court, Outpost...

Open scheme/summon chapel with baker token.
T3: Chapel 4 copper, alms for fortress
T4: Alms a Nomad Camp. Now only NC, scheme on deck, with 6 bad cards, chapel in discard.
T5: If chapel drawn, trash all (even nomad camp) and be faster. Otherwise, play NC, copper, borrow for a mission. Scheme the Scheme unless there's chapel.
T5M: Guaranteed to draw chapel. Then trash 2 copper and the nomad camp, alms for fortress number 2. Scheme chapel.
T6: Chapel the other 4 dead cards, alms for develop. There are a bunch of different shuffles that could happen in turns 5/5M/6, but in all of them we can get down to a deck of Chapel, Scheme, Fortress, Fortress, Develop.
T7: play Fortress, develop fortress for scheme and pillage, play fortress, draw pillage, play pillage...
T8+: Play a pillage a turn while also building a masquerade pin. 3-pile doesn't happen because the opponents only buy base cards. The only trouble is that you could run out of pillages because it takes a while to get everything from the black market deck, or that the opponents will get enough lucky turns where even a pillage won't stop them from getting a province because they bought more silver/gold on the turns where they got pillaged.

EDIT: Looks like the scheme can actually be any cantrip, so there's a fair bit of wiggle room here.

[jomini]

Ehh, that would be important for that approach. So here is something completely different.

Events:
Alms
Bonfire

1. Band of Misfits (Bom)
2.
3. Fortress (Fort)
4. Scheme (Sch, Bane)
5. Black Market (contains Baker, Young Witch)
6. Goons
7.
8. Chapel (Chap)
9. Procession (Prssn)
10. Chancellor
11. Scavenger


T1: Buy Bom
T2: Buy Scheme
T3/T4: Buy Alms or start trashing sooner: gain Fort x2
T5: Sch -> Bom (Chap: trash CCCC): buy Alms gain Fort
T6: BomCCCE: Bom (Chap: trash CCCE): buy Alms gain Prssn
T7: Deck is just FortFortFortBomEESchPrssn: play Fort x2, if needed play a Sch: hand is now BomPrssnEEFort: Prssn -> Bom1 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Sch if it is in draw deck, gain Bom2, regain Fort) -> (draw Bom2, gain Bom3, trash Bom1, gain Goons1, regain Fort)

Hand is now BomFortEE: Bom2 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Goons1Bom3, gain Bom4, regain Fort) -> Bom3 (Prssn) ->Fort (draw Bom4, gain Bom5, regain Fort) -> Bom4 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom5, gain Bom6, trash Bom3, gain Goons2) ... at the end of this chain I believe I should have 7 Goons in hand (the 7th being drawn by just playing the Fort) and more than enough actions to play all 7.

7 Goons gives me $14 and 8 buys. Cash lets me buy a province and a duchy, which with EE gives me 11 VP. 8 x 7 is 56 points for a total of 67 VP. At this point they will have split 4 provinces each for 27 VP. 3 Provinces, 11 Duchies and 12 Estates is 24 + 33 + 12 or 69 VP total; if one of them king-makes they could still beat me. If they both play their best that means one guy will get 2 Provinces, 6 Duchies, and 6 Estates for only 12 + 18 + 6 = 36 VP giving them only 63 VP total. Oddly enough, if I let them go first, they will each have 5 provinces for 33 VP which may be a wider margin without king-making.

 
Going up the 4er version should work here. Lucky Messenger will either open Gold/Alms (Messenger) which means I can use the above strat there as well if I can shave a turn down with Bonfire/Mission/Expedition/Borrow or he will open with Messenger (Curse)/Silver which will mean that I have until T7 as he will lag a province. As they are splitting Provinces 3 ways, at T7 I will have a 4,4,3 split and end the game with an honest win. King-making should not be an issue here as I will be buying the last province.

The latter option should be easy with just swapping in a Bonfire for one of the Forts.


I think I could increase the power potential by grabbing a second Prssn instead of a Fort ... but that breaks a lot of the degeneracy T7 starting hands so I cannot be sure if I can boost easily to 8 Goons that way.

Well hopefully I have not made too many errors. Please let me know if anything seems off.


Faust:
No. Say they open with Chancellor/Chancellor/Gold/Gold/Gold (as luck would have it). That means they start T6 with hands of "Chancellor" x2, Gold x3; utterly immune to Pillage. At the end of T9 games is over regardless of Pillage play. You bought exactly 2 turns over a standard opening. You can buy 3 turns against an accelerated Alms/Baker coin opening. Both of those are powerful amounts of time ... but getting multiple $5's early is pretty hard. Ferry, Prssn, Squire, Dev, and Stmsn/Ped are a few of the only ways to do so easily ... and that makes it pretty hard to get the Pillage train going before the game is over.

Liopoil:
Nope.
1. You get "unlucky" and hit a 4/3 opening instead of 3/4 (Chapel on T2 might be better, but I have not worked it out). You cannot assure the Summon on T2.
2. On T4 you might draw your Sch and mess up your shuffles (I cannot easily tell if that matters)
3. For 4er, you will lose after T6. They will open Alms(Chancellor)/Gold. T3, 4, 5, 6 each burn 3 provinces and the game ends before you get a T7. I assume that for BM we treat Alms as a simple way to "buy" $3/4 cost cards. Alms/Baker accelerates the lucky stiffs a turn as well as you.
4. For 3er, you need to come up with your pin in no more than 4 turns. This is pretty hard - you have no Bm on T8 so will need to get one via Dev. You also have no net draw in your kingdom so you can, at most play Dev/Spoils x2/Bm/Pillage until you get the Kc out of the Bm. Once you do, you have to choose between using the Kc for draw and playing dead Masqs. You can add in some draw in the kingdom slot ... but using it may prove difficult.

I suspect a much easier shot would be opening with Tfair/Chap (Summon just draws an extra card) and using Prssn rather than Dev on your Fort.

[liopoil]

Liopoil:
Nope.
1. You get "unlucky" and hit a 4/3 opening instead of 3/4 (Chapel on T2 might be better, but I have not worked it out). You cannot assure the Summon on T2.
2. On T4 you might draw your Sch and mess up your shuffles (I cannot easily tell if that matters)
3. For 4er, you will lose after T6. They will open Alms(Chancellor)/Gold. T3, 4, 5, 6 each burn 3 provinces and the game ends before you get a T7. I assume that for BM we treat Alms as a simple way to "buy" $3/4 cost cards. Alms/Baker accelerates the lucky stiffs a turn as well as you.
4. For 3er, you need to come up with your pin in no more than 4 turns. This is pretty hard - you have no Bm on T8 so will need to get one via Dev. You also have no net draw in your kingdom so you can, at most play Dev/Spoils x2/Bm/Pillage until you get the Kc out of the Bm. Once you do, you have to choose between using the Kc for draw and playing dead Masqs. You can add in some draw in the kingdom slot ... but using it may prove difficult.

I suspect a much easier shot would be opening with Tfair/Chap (Summon just draws an extra card) and using Prssn rather than Dev on your Fort.

1. With 4/3 or 5/2 I summon a chapel turn 1 and it's better.
2. This does not mess up the shuffles, and in fact I don't even imply it doesn't happen. The scheme is just played as a cantrip and then topdecked and it's exactly the same.
3/4. The opponents play chancellor-variant BM, so no alms, no 3-pile. We can also just replace scheme with menagerie for draw, and still have a slot; if you look closely there is no place where a scheme is needed over any other cantrip.

[gamesou]

I'll look at the proposed solutions, but here are some rule clarifications

1) The lucky chancellor plays the following strategy: the allowed cards are {Curse/Estate/Duchy/Province/Copper/Silver/Gold/Chancellor} and he buys randomly among the affordable cards. He makes any other decision randomly. However he's not allowed to buy events such as Alms.

2) If you use more than two Events the Chancellor will complain that it goes against the rulebook. The Black Market deck must have at least 15 cards. If you want to dig for cards in the deck, remember you might be unlucky.

[gamesou]

T7: Deck is just FortFortFortBomEESchPrssn: play Fort x2, if needed play a Sch: hand is now BomPrssnEEFort: Prssn -> Bom1 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Sch if it is in draw deck, gain Bom2, regain Fort) -> (draw Bom2, gain Bom3, trash Bom1, gain Goons1, regain Fort)

Hand is now BomFortEE: Bom2 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Goons1Bom3, gain Bom4, regain Fort) -> Bom3 (Prssn) ->Fort (draw Bom4, gain Bom5, regain Fort) -> Bom4 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom5, gain Bom6, trash Bom3, gain Goons2) ... at the end of this chain I believe I should have 7 Goons in hand (the 7th being drawn by just playing the Fort) and more than enough actions to play all 7.

I don't get how the chain works (even after trying on Makingfun) ... how do you trash Bom3 ?

Other remarks : 1) You have one extra turn if the opponents are not allowed to buy Alms, 2) if you switch Bonfire (not used) for Travelling Fair you get 15 buys, securing against lucky kingmakings.

[faust]

Does any of the lucky bots use the Baker coin if available? Jammy Messenger can use it to open Messenger-Messenger which would be harder to go against.

[gamesou]

Does any of the lucky bots use the Baker coin if available? Jammy Messenger can use it to open Messenger-Messenger which would be harder to go against.

They perform any decision randomly. So they may use the Baker coin at any time.

[liopoil]

Darn that means we get two curses first shuffle and pillaging won't really work.

[faust]

Does any of the lucky bots use the Baker coin if available? Jammy Messenger can use it to open Messenger-Messenger which would be harder to go against.

They perform any decision randomly. So they may use the Baker coin at any time.

Assuming that you have to beat them every single they might use it properly at some point.

Well, they use it randomly and have perfect luck, so they use it properly.

[jomini]

T7: Deck is just FortFortFortBomEESchPrssn: play Fort x2, if needed play a Sch: hand is now BomPrssnEEFort: Prssn -> Bom1 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Sch if it is in draw deck, gain Bom2, regain Fort) -> (draw Bom2, gain Bom3, trash Bom1, gain Goons1, regain Fort)

Hand is now BomFortEE: Bom2 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Goons1Bom3, gain Bom4, regain Fort) -> Bom3 (Prssn) ->Fort (draw Bom4, gain Bom5, regain Fort) -> Bom4 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom5, gain Bom6, trash Bom3, gain Goons2) ... at the end of this chain I believe I should have 7 Goons in hand (the 7th being drawn by just playing the Fort) and more than enough actions to play all 7.

I don't get how the chain works (even after trying on Makingfun) ... how do you trash Bom3 ?

Other remarks : 1) You have one extra turn if the opponents are not allowed to buy Alms, 2) if you switch Bonfire (not used) for Travelling Fair you get 15 buys, securing against lucky kingmakings.

Well it seems silly in the extreme to not use Alms to gain BM cards; are BM strats not programmed to use Alms as a defacto $4 buy these days?

I think I made an error in the chain, thank you for pointing that out. One idea is to setup a procession tree - E.g. Prssn1 -> Prssn2 -> Prssn 3, each card processes two more where one or both is another procession. The other is to use Fort as the end points of the tree - each play results in gaining one Bom and drawing one card (in that order). Once we have an empty deck that means we will place Bom in the discard and then draw it & gain a new one to the discard each turn thereafter.

Mixing these two, as I must, makes the tree hard to parse. I need to kick off Prssn -> Bom (Prssn) -> Fort to get another Bom (or Prssn) into hand, but if I cap any Bom/Prssn (e.g. Prssn -> Prssn -> Fort -> Fort) then I gain a card (in the case of Bom a $6) and that messes up the draw. I can use a kingdom slot on Nobles for some extra draw.

So here is another shot:
T1: Buy Bom
T2: Buy Scheme
T3/T4: One turn is at least CCC (if not I can trash estates early and then move the Bonfire to a later turn), trash 2 C; the other - buy Alms, gain Fort
T5: Sch -> Bom (Chap: trash CCCC): buy Alms gain Fort
T6: BomCEEE: Bom (Chap: trash CEEE): buy Alms gain Prssn (Scheme or Fort can be played first)
T7: Deck is now just BomPrssnSchFortFort: Bom1 (Prssn) -> Prssn -> Fort (draw nothing, trash Fort, gain Bom2, regain Fort) -> Fort (draw Bom2, trash Fort, gain Bom3, trash Prssn, gain Bom4, regain Fort)

I now have Bom2FortFortSch in hand Sch -> Fort

Bom2Bom3Bom4Fort: Bom2 (Prssn) -> Bom3 (Prssn) -> Bom4 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw nothing, trash Fort, gain Bom5, regain fort) -> Fort (draw Bom5, trash Fort, gain Bom6, regain Fort, trash Bom4, gain Goons1)

At this point Bom3 is looking for its 2nd card to process. Hand is Bom5Fort. ->Bom5 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom6 & Goons1, trash Fort, gain Bom7, regain Fort) -> Bom6 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom7, trash Fort, gain Bom8, regain Fort) -> Bom7 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom8, trash Fort, gain Bom9, regain Fort) -> Bom8 (prssn) -> (draw Bom9, trash Fort, gain Bom10, regain Fort)

Okay so at this point Bom8 is looking for a second card to process, Bom9FortFort is in hand, and Bom10 is the only card in the discard. Say I have Council room in the kingdom (assuming I do not need my only open slot for something else). I can then continue:
->Bom9 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom10, trash Fort, gain Cr1, regain Fort) -> Bom10 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Cr1, trash Fort, gain Cr2, regain Fort)

Bom10 is looking for a 2nd card to process; Bom3-9 (excluding Bom4) are waiting to resolve Bom10 in reverse sequence)

-> Cr1 (draw Cr2, trash Cr1, gain Goons2, trash Bom10, gain Goons3, trash Bom9, gain Goons4 ... trash Bom5, gain Goons8, trash Bom3, gain Goons9) -> Cr2 (draw Goons2-6) -> Fort (draw Goons7)

I have more actions than I know what to do with so I play 7 Goons.
$14 gives me a duchy & province and 6 coppers for 65 VP (9 + 56). My opponents will have 27 VP in hand and 63 on the table. Of those, they can only take 62 (they cannot empty both Duchies and Estates without ending the game). Further I have just 3 cards (green + Cr) that are not either cantrip (Fort) or allow me to buy Estates (Goons, CC, Bom as Scav). It will also take them 25 turns to acquire all those VP. So before the next turn the potential scores are 65 vs 89. On my next turn I play Goons & buy EC; VP potential goes to 68 vs 88.  Now I shuffle. I have 6C, 1Cr, 9Goons, E, P, D, 2Fort, Sch, 2Bom. With 4 dead cards I whiff my next hand (CrEPDC). After that I have at least 2 turns with at least one Goons and one turn with a simple Estate buy) - this changes VP potential 75 to 85. Now I shuffle again. I have 7 dead cards. In this shuffle I will again have at least 2 hands with a Goons as well as another E buying hand - 82 to 82.

Optimal VP gain for one king-made opponent would be Prov - 9 Duchies - Prov or 11 turns. As it only takes me 9 more turns to even out the score, one opponent cannot end it before I tie it. At this point I have 10 dead cards (7E/D/P/Cr) so on 11 turns after my megaturn turn I will buy another estate for a win that cannot be stopped.

Messenger is just brutal now. By far the worst thing that can happen is for Messenger to just hand out curses every turn. At best Chapel can kill 4 cards per shuffle. You start with 3 turns per shuffle at T3 (13-14 cards). So on T3 you chapel 4, discard 1 (Liopoil's opening). That leaves 7 cards. It goes up to 8 next turn. The following turn will have 5 of 10 cards; you will gain another curse (11 cards). Finally you chapel 4 (7 cards) and gain 1 (8 cards). You cannot clear deck with Chapel at this rate.

What is faster than Chapel for clearing cards? Not to much. Summon - Envoy - Mint is broke because we want to trash curses. Bonfire is out because you need cards in play; though maybe Bonfire/Chapel can work. Forge is far too slow and Count is slower still. Doc seems slower. Even something like Tfair/Chap/Mission is going to be too slow I think.

[gamesou]

I now think that jomini's solution is correct ! You beat 2 opponents, including rematch, even if they are allowed to buy Alms. Congratulations that's really great !

I should say "essentially correct" because I think you can draw only 6 goons as you stated it (Cr2 draws Goons2-5 only). I'm sure this could be fixed (if you can do it easily, please do !). However you forgot the buys from the Council Rooms. This gives you 3 extra buys (Cr1 was processed). So you have 10 buys for Province+2*Estate, i.e. 68 points and I think your endgame analysis is still OK even with only 6 Goons in play.

To summarize, the kingdom is

Alms/Bonfire
1. Baker
2. Band of Misfits
3. Scheme
4. Chapel
5. Fortress
6. Procession
7. Goons
8. Council Room
9. Chancellor
10. Scavenger
(with an extra free spot if we use Black Market)

[gamesou]

What is faster than Chapel for clearing cards?

There may be some hope with Watchtower.

[faust]

What is faster than Chapel for clearing cards?

There may be some hope with Watchtower.

I played around a bit (it involed Mint/Chapel/Bonfire/Watchtower/Alms) and could manage to have a "clean" deck by T9 or T10 I think. That's still not quick enough, but maybe there's a way to speed things up.

[jomini]

I now think that jomini's solution is correct ! You beat 2 opponents, including rematch, even if they are allowed to buy Alms. Congratulations that's really great !

I should say "essentially correct" because I think you can draw only 6 goons as you stated it (Cr2 draws Goons2-5 only). I'm sure this could be fixed (if you can do it easily, please do !). However you forgot the buys from the Council Rooms. This gives you 3 extra buys (Cr1 was processed). So you have 10 buys for Province+2*Estate, i.e. 68 points and I think your endgame analysis is still OK even with only 6 Goons in play.

To summarize, the kingdom is

Alms/Bonfire
1. Baker
2. Band of Misfits
3. Scheme
4. Chapel
5. Fortress
6. Procession
7. Goons
8. Council Room
9. Chancellor
10. Scavenger
(with an extra free spot if we use Black Market)

Thanks for catching that draw slip up. If we use up our extra card slot on Border village, then instead of Goons1, I believe I can get Bv/Bom, I will then draw either two Bom or Bv/Bom and then two Bom with the next iteration. This means I can get another Cr at the end into hand to draw & play 8 Goons with a total of 13 buys. Two provinces with 104 VP gets me up to 116 VP.

This makes end game analysis a breeze. 3er has a total of 123 possible points from green. I take 12. So at best, even if I ignored my opponents and passed on all subsequent turns, one of them would top out at 111 (110 as they have to leave an estate).

What I do not see is a way to beat back the curse flood. T1 is automatically one curse in bound. T2 can only prevent a curse with a Tfair/Wt shot that burns a Baker coin or takes a borrow. Once you do that you can play a Wt and get to EEECurCC, so you can only either Alms off that hand or Borrow & Bonfire. Either way you get a curse.

4er is exceedingly difficult, but I think I can beat a lax version of it (I need 4 events)
Events:
Borrow
Alms
Quest
Traveling Fair

Cards:
1. Chancellor
2. Scavenger
3. Messenger
4. Bm
5. Develop (Dev)
6. Kc
7. Band of misfits (Bom)
8. Nomad camp (Nc)
9. Throne room (Tr)
10. Scheme (Sch)
11. Bridge (Brg)

T1: Tfair, buy Curse X2 to top deck (anything)
T2: - : Borrow, buy Tfair using Baker coin, buy Quest (discard Curses for a Gold to top deck), Alms (gain Dev to deck top)
T3: Dev (trash Gold, gain Kc/Bom)

This is a very powerful basic setup that can go a lot of places

T4: Kc -> Bom (Sch) : Alms (Nomad camp)
T5: Kc -> Bom (Sch) -> Nc :Tfair, Alms (Tr)
T6: Tr -> Kc -> Bom (Sch) -> Nc: Tfair, Pilgrimage (gain KcBom), Alms (gain Brg): Top deck KcKcBomBomBrg
T7: Kc -> Kc -> Bom (Brg) -> Bom (Brg) -> Brg. I have $9 (with Borrow) and $9 cost reduction and 10 buys. That lets me pile just about anything

If Messenger boy has NOT gone mad Cursing, then there will be 3 Provinces left (assuming the bots do not use Alms). I snap up those and 7 Duchies for an easy win (my opponents gain 3 Provinces on T4, T5, and T6).

If Messenger boy has gone mad cursing then I can let the opponents use Alms and buy the 4 remaining provinces and 6 Duchies.


A very strong alternative I played around with was:
T4: Kc -> Bom(Death cart):
I have $15 to spend here: buy Doc. I can now trash or discard 12 cards. My deck is now Kc(in play)3E3Cur7CDev. I have 2 in Hand (say EE), this leaves me just enough to trash everything but Dev with Doc


So after T4 my deck is EEKcDevDoc: gain a Cur

The problem is that having 3 unique useless cards limits the kingdom:
1. Chancellor
2. Scavenger
3. Messenger
4. Bm
5. Dev
6. Kc
7. Bom
8. Death Cart
9. Doc
10.
11.

With only two slots open, I cannot get a good game winning ramp up in time with my current efforts.

Perhaps there is a way yet to fully beat this, but with just two events you are pretty locked in what you can accomplish just now.

[gamesou]

T1: Tfair, buy Curse X2 to top deck (anything)

You are a genius.

[jomini]

Here is a better effort:

Events:
Borrow
Alms
Quest
Traveling Fair (Tfair)
Pilgrimage

Cards:
1. Chancellor
2. Scavenger (Scav)
3. Messenger
4. Bm
5. Develop (Dev)
6. Kc
7. Band of misfits (Bom)
8. Scheme (Sch)
9. Bridge (Brg)
10. Urchin
11.

T1: Tfair, buy Curse x2 to top deck
T2: - : Borrow, buy Tfair using Baker coin, buy Quest (discard Curses for a Gold to top deck), Alms (gain Dev to deck top)
T3: Dev (trash Gold, gain Kc/Bom): Alms (gain Urchin)
T4: Kc -> Bom (Scav: Discard each time, top deck Urchin): Tfair, Pilgrimage (gain BomKc to top deck), Alms (gain Sch to top deck)
T5: Urchin -> Sch -> Kc -> Bom (Scav, top deck KcBom): Tfair, Alms (Brg), Brg: top deck Kc
T6: Kc -> Kc -> Bom (Brg) -> Brg -> Brg

Even in last position with Alms(X)/Gold openings, this should work. On T3, T4, & T5 they buy 3 Prov each. On T6 they have only 4 cards so they can go for a duchy each. I can then grab 3 Provinces and 7 Duchies for an easy win. Ditching 2 events is going to be tough, it is very hard not have control of top deck (Tfair) or quick value gain (maybe there is a shot without Pilgrimage).

[J Reggie]

I'm not sure Pilgrimage works here. You need to turn over your Journey token once to gain anything.

[jomini]

I'm not sure Pilgrimage works here. You need to turn over your Journey token once to gain anything.

I believe you are right, well does this finally beat all 3 of the buggers?

Cards:
1. Chancellor
2. Scavenger
3. Messenger
4. Bm
5. Develop (Dev)
6. Kc
7. Band of misfits (Bom)
8. Wt
9. Fort
10. Procession (Prssn)
11. Goons
Events:
Tfair
Borrow
Alms
Quest
Ball

T1: Tfair, buy Curse x2 to top deck
T2: - : Borrow, buy Tfair using Baker coin, buy Quest (discard Curses for a Gold to top deck), Alms (gain Dev to deck top)
T3: Dev (trash Gold, gain Kc/Bom): Alms (gain Fort)
T4: Kc -> Bom (Scav: Discard each time, top deck Fort): Borrow, Tfair, Ball (gain PrssnPrssn to top deck), Alms (gain Wt to tp deck)
T5: Prssn1 -> Prssn2 -> Fort (trash Fort, gain Bom2 to top deck with Wt, regain Fort) -> Fort (draw Bom2, trash Fort, gain Bom3, regain Fort, trash Prssn2, gain Bom4)

At this point my hand is Bom2FortWtXXX

So this should work like before - gain cards to deck top by revealing Wt and chaining through the Bom:
Bom2 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom3Bom4, trash Fort, gain Bom5) -> Bom3 (Prssn) -> Bom4 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom5, trash Fort, gain Bom6, regain Fort) -> Bom5 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom6, trash Fort, gain Bom7, regain Fort) -> Bom6 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Bom7, trash Fort, gain Bom8, regain Fort) -> Bom7 -> Fort (draw Bom8, trash Fort, gain Bom9, regain Fort)

So right now my hand is Bom8FortWt + 9  cards, I have  4 Bom waiting to finish a Prssn chain and Bom9 on deck top.

-> Fort (draw a card & Bom9, trash Fort, gain Bom10, regain Fort, trash Bom4-8, gain Goons1-4 to top deck)

Bom8 (Prssn) -> Bom9 (Fort: draw Goons1-2, trash Bom9, gain Goons5 to top deck, regain Bom9) -> Bom9 (Prssn) -> Bom10 (Fort: draw Goons3-4, trash Bom10, gain Goons6, regain Bom10) -> Bom10 (Prssn) -> Fort (draw Goons5-6)

6 Goons in play gives me 11 (-1$ token from Ball), but I Borrow to make it 12. I have 7 buys, but I buy 6 Tfairs for 13 buys (buying out Curses to trash with Wt). 13 * 6 = 78 VP. At most, any opponent can gain 6 Provinces, 12 duchies, and 12 estates which is 84 VP. However, even Messenger cannot gain more than 2 cards a turn and there are 27 cards to nab - I have 13 more turns. If I just Alms an estate for 5 turns that gives me 83 VP vs 81 VP possible.

[mith]

Wow, that may be most of the way to a solution for "Buy the supply by turn 5 without perfect shuffle luck."

[Limetime]

Wow, that may be most of the way to a solution for "Buy the supply by turn 5 without perfect shuffle luck."

Now I want to play it and win every single time.

[jomini]

Wow, that may be most of the way to a solution for "Buy the supply by turn 5 without perfect shuffle luck."

I am not so sure. One of the big tricks for "buy the supply" is a mass of Hagglers working in the the Black market deck; dipping into there with worst possible luck will be a nightmare - think of hitting Transmute, Vineyard & Poorhouse. Once I run through the Bom and Prssn I have few ways to generate a card explosion of that magnitude. Dev/Bv/Haggler might be doable if we drop Chancellor and Messenger from the kingdom, but I suspect we are looking at another turn or 2 at least.

I suspect emptying the supply will be a LOT easier with a $15 Doc on T4. Without the curses we just have 3 or 4 cards in hand/play and 10 in the discard. We can Tfair up some Alms on T4 and have a spare Alms on T3. Kc -> Prssn -> Fort is a much more versatile chain that what I have going here.

[Limetime]

Wow, that may be most of the way to a solution for "Buy the supply by turn 5 without perfect shuffle luck."

I am not so sure. One of the big tricks for "buy the supply" is a mass of Hagglers working in the the Black market deck; dipping into there with worst possible luck will be a nightmare - think of hitting Transmute, Vineyard & Poorhouse. Once I run through the Bom and Prssn I have few ways to generate a card explosion of that magnitude. Dev/Bv/Haggler might be doable if we drop Chancellor and Messenger from the kingdom, but I suspect we are looking at another turn or 2 at least.

I suspect emptying the supply will be a LOT easier with a $15 Doc on T4. Without the curses we just have 3 or 4 cards in hand/play and 10 in the discard. We can Tfair up some Alms on T4 and have a spare Alms on T3. Kc -> Prssn -> Fort is a much more versatile chain that what I have going here.

You can just not put vineyards in the bm deck

[DG]

This isn't part of the puzzle, this a lucky scavenger game from yesterday where I get perfect shuffle luck up until turn 9 buying scavenger, silver, gold, gold, hunting grounds, gold (with 8 coins), province, province, province. I still lose as my opponent was playing a mirror and managed 4 provinces in 10 turns. http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160224/log.0.1456276632969.txt

[mith]

Wow, that may be most of the way to a solution for "Buy the supply by turn 5 without perfect shuffle luck."

I am not so sure. One of the big tricks for "buy the supply" is a mass of Hagglers working in the the Black market deck; dipping into there with worst possible luck will be a nightmare - think of hitting Transmute, Vineyard & Poorhouse. Once I run through the Bom and Prssn I have few ways to generate a card explosion of that magnitude. Dev/Bv/Haggler might be doable if we drop Chancellor and Messenger from the kingdom, but I suspect we are looking at another turn or 2 at least.

I suspect emptying the supply will be a LOT easier with a $15 Doc on T4. Without the curses we just have 3 or 4 cards in hand/play and 10 in the discard. We can Tfair up some Alms on T4 and have a spare Alms on T3. Kc -> Prssn -> Fort is a much more versatile chain that what I have going here.

Wow, that may be most of the way to a solution for "Buy the supply by turn 5 without perfect shuffle luck."

I am not so sure. One of the big tricks for "buy the supply" is a mass of Hagglers working in the the Black market deck; dipping into there with worst possible luck will be a nightmare - think of hitting Transmute, Vineyard & Poorhouse. Once I run through the Bom and Prssn I have few ways to generate a card explosion of that magnitude. Dev/Bv/Haggler might be doable if we drop Chancellor and Messenger from the kingdom, but I suspect we are looking at another turn or 2 at least.

I suspect emptying the supply will be a LOT easier with a $15 Doc on T4. Without the curses we just have 3 or 4 cards in hand/play and 10 in the discard. We can Tfair up some Alms on T4 and have a spare Alms on T3. Kc -> Prssn -> Fort is a much more versatile chain that what I have going here.

I'm assuming we can set up the Black Market deck however we want. It almost doesn't matter what's in there - we want to gain all the King's Courts as soon as possible, which can be done by buying Prince/Peddler. With a minimum BM deck of 15 cards, we can guarantee buying one of those cards by the 5th BM play, which is the same result as CC's 4 turn solution. Otherwise, we'll want to load it up with expensive cards to maximize our Haggler gains, and there are plenty of those for a small BM deck.

We should have plenty of space in the kingdom: Develop, King's Court, Band of Misfits, Procession, Fortress, Watchtower, Catacombs, Haggler, Black Market, [Scavenger/Death Cart], which leaves one slot with Young Witch (and Baker) in the Black Market.

I don't think we need the Curses to get this going, either - we can afford Borrow + Expedition on turn 1, and discard our 6 card hand to Quest on turn 2. And we don't need Doctor; $15 is enough for TF+TF+Ball+Ball+Alms, leaving us turn 5 with Procession/Procession/Procession/Fortress/Watchtower. (Doctor probably works as well, but not using it saves a slot for something else.)

[jomini]

Wow, that may be most of the way to a solution for "Buy the supply by turn 5 without perfect shuffle luck."

I am not so sure. One of the big tricks for "buy the supply" is a mass of Hagglers working in the the Black market deck; dipping into there with worst possible luck will be a nightmare - think of hitting Transmute, Vineyard & Poorhouse. Once I run through the Bom and Prssn I have few ways to generate a card explosion of that magnitude. Dev/Bv/Haggler might be doable if we drop Chancellor and Messenger from the kingdom, but I suspect we are looking at another turn or 2 at least.

I suspect emptying the supply will be a LOT easier with a $15 Doc on T4. Without the curses we just have 3 or 4 cards in hand/play and 10 in the discard. We can Tfair up some Alms on T4 and have a spare Alms on T3. Kc -> Prssn -> Fort is a much more versatile chain that what I have going here.

Wow, that may be most of the way to a solution for "Buy the supply by turn 5 without perfect shuffle luck."

I am not so sure. One of the big tricks for "buy the supply" is a mass of Hagglers working in the the Black market deck; dipping into there with worst possible luck will be a nightmare - think of hitting Transmute, Vineyard & Poorhouse. Once I run through the Bom and Prssn I have few ways to generate a card explosion of that magnitude. Dev/Bv/Haggler might be doable if we drop Chancellor and Messenger from the kingdom, but I suspect we are looking at another turn or 2 at least.

I suspect emptying the supply will be a LOT easier with a $15 Doc on T4. Without the curses we just have 3 or 4 cards in hand/play and 10 in the discard. We can Tfair up some Alms on T4 and have a spare Alms on T3. Kc -> Prssn -> Fort is a much more versatile chain that what I have going here.

I'm assuming we can set up the Black Market deck however we want. It almost doesn't matter what's in there - we want to gain all the King's Courts as soon as possible, which can be done by buying Prince/Peddler. With a minimum BM deck of 15 cards, we can guarantee buying one of those cards by the 5th BM play, which is the same result as CC's 4 turn solution. Otherwise, we'll want to load it up with expensive cards to maximize our Haggler gains, and there are plenty of those for a small BM deck.

We should have plenty of space in the kingdom: Develop, King's Court, Band of Misfits, Procession, Fortress, Watchtower, Catacombs, Haggler, Black Market, [Scavenger/Death Cart], which leaves one slot with Young Witch (and Baker) in the Black Market.

I don't think we need the Curses to get this going, either - we can afford Borrow + Expedition on turn 1, and discard our 6 card hand to Quest on turn 2. And we don't need Doctor; $15 is enough for TF+TF+Ball+Ball+Alms, leaving us turn 5 with Procession/Procession/Procession/Fortress/Watchtower. (Doctor probably works as well, but not using it saves a slot for something else.)

I just wanted to say thanks, the Tfairx2Ballx2Alms opening was just barely enough to get things going to let Bv/Dev/Haggler work out. If I have done it successfully in the other thread, I think we may have found the ultimate in
You Make Your Own Shuffle Luck

=)