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Author Topic: Accountability  (Read 26010 times)

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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2016, 08:55:38 pm »
0

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?
Ask ADK.
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Awaclus

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2016, 08:58:18 pm »
+1

You want to dissolve the only consistent competitive online Dominion circuit because they picked someone else to do commentary once? Jesus dude, grow up. I know commentary is something you care about and is important to you, but League is also important to the (other) people who run it and play in it. Ultimately, if the League is still running and is still fair to at least all of its participants (in the playing matches sense), there's no reason to encourage everyone to quit because of a decision over who talks over 1 of the hundreds of matches played each month.

It's not the only consistent competitive online Dominion circuit. There's also automatching + Isotropish leaderboard, which I personally vastly prefer over the League format, and that's why I have already quit the League (which has nothing to do with this issue).

From what I understand, Adam's problem here isn't that he didn't get to commentate, but rather, how it was handled. Without seeing the PMs, it's hard to say for sure if his having a problem with it is justified, but if it is, then it's certainly a much bigger issue than "a decision over who talks over 1 of the hundreds of matches played each month", because if handling disagreements and stuff like that fairly and openly isn't a high priority for the League organizers, then it has implications regarding everyone in the League to the extent that I don't find it at all unreasonable to expect at least some people to want to quit because of it.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2016, 09:12:40 pm »
0

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?
It's so nobody can take home any respect.
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Awaclus

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2016, 09:17:16 pm »
0

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?
It's so nobody can take home any respect.

Too late — Adam already did.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2016, 09:31:07 pm »
0

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

It's political
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2016, 09:36:28 pm »
+1

I honestly think a rival league might be a good idea. Some people who love to play tons of Dominion could be in both; most people could choose one.

This is probably a stupid question, but how much work really goes into a league? Isn't it more of a time commitment where you have to keep everything updated?
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2016, 09:43:03 pm »
+1

I honestly think a rival league might be a good idea. Some people who love to play tons of Dominion could be in both; most people could choose one.

This is probably a stupid question, but how much work really goes into a league? Isn't it more of a time commitment where you have to keep everything updated?
I am all for Adam organizing another monthly-ish competition as long as it doesn't create division in the forum.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2016, 10:22:58 pm »
0

I honestly think a rival league might be a good idea. Some people who love to play tons of Dominion could be in both; most people could choose one.

This is probably a stupid question, but how much work really goes into a league? Isn't it more of a time commitment where you have to keep everything updated?
I am all for Adam organizing another monthly-ish competition as long as it doesn't create division in the forum.

But there is already division in the forum in a sense. The League is a pretty big time commitment, while automatch+Isotropic is extremely broad. There could be a niche in between those two that could be exploited. I'd say those post-league-season mini tournament after-parties fit that well.

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

It's political

A shame, since DXV worked so hard to minimize the political aspects of Dominion.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2016, 10:26:14 pm »
0

If you feel like that none of your concerns were responded to, maybe start with making these public? I'm pretty confident that we responded to everything that wasn't a threat or a non-sequitur. But I'll gladly adress the points again here if that makes you happier.

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AdamH

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2016, 10:32:46 pm »
+1

Uhh, so wow there's a lot of text here, all I did was make some deep-fried Twinkies™ for my wife for V-day and watch Walking Dead.

Some people don't agree with me, some of them are slightly misunderstanding what I'm saying but have been corrected by other people before I got here. Umm, what can I really add at this point?

So yes, the League is not formal, and Stef (and maybe some other moderators who help) runs it and everybody just does whatever he says. This has been OK with everyone and people play in the league because they think it's OK. I mean, I played in it for a while, I even modded for several seasons, so you know. If there was some reason that I thought the moderators would act with something other than integrity, I would like to know about it so I could re-evaluate my continued participation.

I believe that's happened and what I've chosen to do is to talk about it -- I no longer believe that the group of moderators currently running the league are capable of operating with enough integrity to moderate something to my satisfaction, and I think other people would agree. Maybe I have to show some PMs to do this, but right now it's not clear what I need to show and I'd rather reveal too little than reveal too much since that first one is much easier to fix.

In any case, the thing that's important to me is not to destroy the League -- the League seems fine, people like it. I'd want new moderators but as has been discussed that really isn't possible without destroying the League. In my opinion there really should be something in place for when we aren't happy with the moderators, but hindsight, etc.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2016, 10:39:10 pm »
+7

I don't know Adam, having read this thread, I see next to nothing that makes me question the integrity of the league moderators. If you want to convince anyone you'll have to post PMs, but I think that even if you do you are unlikely to find people agreeing with you.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2016, 10:45:55 pm »
+1

Is there anything that the moderators have done wrong besides afending you? If it is just that why don't you forgive and forget about it.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2016, 11:10:43 pm »
+1

Adam,

It is hard for me to figure out what is going on here. Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married, or maybe it's because you are so invested in Dominion, which is great, but maybe you have allowed your investment to take things too seriously. Honestly, it's hard to know because I really don't know what's going on here. It sounds like a he said/she said sort of thing. Perhaps, there was a cultural barrier between you and one of the mods. I have no idea. I'm sorry that you're upset, but I can't really side with you right now since I have no idea what's really going on.

Also, a big fear of mine is that if you try creating another league, you might create a lot of division on this board. We really don't need that, imo. I really don't want to relive the whole online debacle that happened a few months ago when SCSN put out the code. Please, no, not again. Thank you.

I really don't have much else to say. I wish I did.

Beyond Awesome
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2016, 01:29:36 am »
0

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

Dominion has always been sexy.

There's a lot of drama here over not very much. The league moderators are responsible for organizing official commentary. AdamH and others are welcome to do unofficial commentary.

Also, on the topic of other tournaments, would anyone be interested in a monthly Swiss tournament with 1 game matches?
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2016, 01:41:43 am »
+1

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

Dominion has always been sexy.

There's a lot of drama here over not very much. The league moderators are responsible for organizing official commentary. AdamH and others are welcome to do unofficial commentary.

Also, on the topic of other tournaments, would anyone be interested in a monthly Swiss tournament with 1 game matches?
I would!
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2016, 03:00:20 am »
0

Adam,

It is hard for me to figure out what is going on here. Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married, or maybe it's because you are so invested in Dominion, which is great, but maybe you have allowed your investment to take things too seriously. Honestly, it's hard to know because I really don't know what's going on here. It sounds like a he said/she said sort of thing. Perhaps, there was a cultural barrier between you and one of the mods. I have no idea. I'm sorry that you're upset, but I can't really side with you right now since I have no idea what's really going on.

Also, a big fear of mine is that if you try creating another league, you might create a lot of division on this board. We really don't need that, imo. I really don't want to relive the whole online debacle that happened a few months ago when SCSN put out the code. Please, no, not again. Thank you.

I really don't have much else to say. I wish I did.

Beyond Awesome

This just saved me a whole lot of typing. It's really hard to find the real problem among the numerous complaints and comments.

I haven't participated in the league enough to see any behavior from the moderators, good or bad.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2016, 03:36:49 am »
+7

Adam, there is a serious problem here. You're not actually asking any questions, and yet you get mad for not receiving answers.
Please make a simple post where you repeat your questions. You could quote yourself, or just write them down again.

--

Also, I really don't like you questioning my integrity, and consider the whole thing rather ironical.
Two championship matches ago, when you were still the one organizing it, you got into a personal fight with SCSN.
You decided to ban him on your twitch account, even though he was a player in the A-group and wanted to see it.
I was playing at the moment and unaware of anything going on, but I do understand you stripped MicQ from his moderator status for trying to solve this problem.
Bringing your personal beefs into something where you happen to have some form of power - that actually is the opposite of integrity.

The championship match after that we set up a new account to prevent all this from happening again. As I tried to explain to you, this was a personal service to you, even though you didn't recognize it as such. The only other option was making you choose between unbanning SCSN on your own channel and choosing a new commentator, which would basically have been the same as dumping you. The talks around setting up this stream were extremely stiff. Eventually you waited confirming that you were willing to commentate again (prima donna) until 30 min before the match started. I had to have a back up team available just because of that. That's the signs of a really bad team-player, very hard to work with.

--

Apparently you question my decision to move your post, and label it as abuse of power. Do you realize that by moving this thread, I stripped myself of all moderator rights to edit any of its posts? And that people who now hit the 'report' button now actually report to theory, instead of reporting to me?
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2016, 04:53:40 am »
+3

Adam, my two cents as an outsider with no dog in this fight:

Post the single most insulting PM you received from Stef (who already consented) with no commentary, and let the community weigh in on whether they feel it was insulting or inappropriate.

Don't argue or defend, just let others (especially those unconnected with all this) give their opinion.  See if their reactions match yours.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2016, 06:10:32 am »
+1

In this case, it seems the best course of action would be for the league to be dissolved [...] I would rather not be the one to put it together to avoid potential conflict of interest, since I'm unfortunately the one who got stuck in the position of having to out the behavior of the current League moderation, but I am capable of moderating tournaments and would be willing to do so if called upon.

Two things:

1) If things happened the way you described it, the best course of action in my eyes is for the people who insulted you to apologize.

2) If you just want to bring attention to you being treated in an unfair manner, it might be better not to make your post seem like some sort of Machiavellian power play to take over the league.

Other than that I agree with what ashersky said.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2016, 07:18:50 am »
+1

This topic does put up a highly political problem up for debate. The league is organized privately, yet the thought that there is an obligation to adhere to standards meant for the relation between an individual and some form of elected or derived authority is not completely ridiculous. As far as I know, the Union of European Football Associations (UEFA) was treated by European Courts as if it were a governmental body, because - even though it is privately organized - within its field, it has such power that the relation between a player and the UEFA is comparable to that of a citizen and the government.

I say this not, because I think the league adminstration should change anything at the moment (I have yet to play a single league match, the administration so far seems swift and friendly to me), I say this because the question intrigues me. When does a privatly organized "something" become powerful enough within its renumerative field that it has to implement measures like elections, when does it need to secure that all administrative measures with an impact on fundamental individual rights have to have written grounds agreed upon by the public ("laws" if you will) and that decisions must be justiciable?

I believe, this league is not big enough yet. More importantly, the ones running the league provide a service for every participant free of charge on a voluntary basis. This does not imply that something being commercialized is the deciding factor, but since there is no revenue you can't really demand that the administrators take all of the work upon themselves that would have to be done to include every possible ruling problem (there are rules and regulations already) and involve the public on every issue. Also, the first step would have to be asking the public (the league participants) if they even want this. I would imagine that there are those who want administration to be as speedy as possible because it's more fun this way. That said, I would like to offer my brainpower (there's little) if the administrators do want to extend rulings or implement similar measures, if my free time permits it. I have no skills regarding technological stuff and no league experience though, so I would probably be a liability. Still.

Something a little more on-topic:

I like AdamH's commentary. As I stated in my intro, his and Qvist's videos were my gateway to online Dominion. I have also watched other people stream and I enjoy their commentary as well. I recently watched a stream where MicQsenoch explained for two minutes how he chipped a tooth by biting down too hard on his fork, before calmly explaining what was going on in the game. I thought it was awesome. Point is, I enjoy hearing and seeing different people stream, not just for their playstyle but also because it's a (weird?) way of getting to know different personalities. AdamH has a kind of quality that screams official broadcast, but he is not the only option by far and picking different commentators for championship matches seems to provide its benefits.

In this case, DXV provided some useful insights as to how the co-commentator was picked. Also, I think this thread has been very civil so far, so I would advise against posting private PMs. I think Stef's request that AdamH states his questions or quotes them seems very reasonable to me.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2016, 12:42:43 pm »
+2

I don't know Adam, having read this thread, I see next to nothing that makes me question the integrity of the league moderators. If you want to convince anyone you'll have to post PMs, but I think that even if you do you are unlikely to find people agreeing with you.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2016, 01:15:36 pm »
+2

I don't know Adam, having read this thread, I see next to nothing that makes me question the integrity of the league moderators. If you want to convince anyone you'll have to post PMs, but I think that even if you do you are unlikely to find people agreeing with you.

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2016, 01:49:21 pm »
+4

Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married

Look, I understand you don't mean this in an offensive way, but I'd really rather the rest of my life stay separated from this. The rest of my life is going just fine and I'm seeing this very clearly, I've had several weeks to read and re-read these PMs, I've talked to IRL friends who I trust more than anyone I've met on the internet. I would really appreciate it if my personal life didn't enter this discussion, it's none of anyone's business by my own and the people I choose to share it with.

Yes, my feelings are hurt. That tends to happen when people insult you personally. If it was just my feelings that were hurt, I don't think I'd be making such a stink about this. I've spent over a year working to make Dominion broadcasts like these better, I've come a long way and the only outlet I have for improvement is the League champion matches (nobody seems to want to have any other competitive Dominion out there because we have the League, which is fine). That work is being discarded and I have no other outlet for this -- I feel like there's something at stake here for me besides my own personal feelings.

But I don't want to make this personal -- my personal life is my own and not any of yours. Please keep it out of this. I thought I had actually brought this up publicly before, but it turns out I think that discussion happened in the League Staff sub-board and I no longer have access to it. In any case, now you all know, please don't make assumptions about my personal life; I take it... personally (ba dum tss).


A lot of people have said that my words have no teeth without seeing the PMs. I agree, I'd think the same thing in your shoes. I've seen some ideas suggested here, most of them seem perfectly reasonable but I can't do all of them, you know? I'd like to know what people actually want to see before doing something un-undoable. If only people could put +1s on the posts whose ideas they liked... I'll reiterate -- I'm willing to share anything, I have nothing to hide, but I don't want to go posting something that I shouldn't have, and it's just not clear to me what I should post yet. Until that happens, it would be unreasonable of me to expect anyone to take my word over anyone else's.


As for creating a division on the board, or trying to take over the League for myself -- that's definitely not what I want. I never said I wanted that. Please read my posts carefully and you'll see exactly what I'm saying and what I want. Organizing the League was something I felt I had to put up with in order to do what I was good at, which was organizing the Champion matches -- at the end of season 11, Stef and I had a discussion and we both agreed that it made more sense for me to not be a full League moderator but still put together the champion matches.

My point is that organizing an online league or tournament isn't exactly at the top of my list -- I've been putting all of my efforts into my IRL scene (mostly because of Adventures) and there are plenty of people online who would rather help out with this. I don't want all of the power or the responsibility; I could probably handle it but I'd really rather not. I feel the League moderators have acted with a lack of integrity here severe enough that it would be dishonest of me not to tell the community, and I think the solution is that they don't moderate the League anymore. It is because they wouldn't want to step down that the League would be dissolved and something put in its place, but I'd really like for that to not be my problem, which is why I said the community should come up with it. I feel like I already typed all of this in my OP, though. Is something not clear?



Adam, there is a serious problem here. You're not actually asking any questions, and yet you get mad for not receiving answers.
Please make a simple post where you repeat your questions. You could quote yourself, or just write them down again.

I asked these questions multiple times over the course of several PMs to you and other League moderators with no answer. I stated in the OP of this post that I had asked those questions and didn't hear a response. Is the serious problem here that I didn't use a question mark in my OP? There! I just used one!

But fine, here's the list. I'll use question marks, even. If you don't want to answer the questions publicly, you can PM me the answers or something.

1. What and with whom are the conflicts that are causing people to not want to cooperate with me for broadcasting the champion match?
2. What justification do you have for allowing certain players (the answer to question 1, for example) in the League to dictate how the League is run over others (like me)?

To be fair, this question was partially answered as I mentioned in my OP -- they had said I no longer represent the community as someone they want to watch. That answer is not true, so I'm hoping for a justification that is actually correct in this case.

Some have said that the mods shouldn't have to answer question 2, I disagree. When I ask this question and receive personal insults in a response, I'd say that among the possible reasons they could have for this would be "we don't like you." OK, sometimes people don't like me, that's fine, but that shouldn't enter the decisions they make as a League moderator. If my opponent and I play a match and agree that the outcome is 3-3, and then a moderator comes in and says "replay two of the games that you won" then I'd want some justification for that, and "I don't like you" wouldn't cut it for me. The mods are acting in their capacity as mods for the purpose of kicking me out of champion match commentary, I fail to see the difference between this and other situations where they act in their capacity as mods.

Also, I really don't like you questioning my integrity, and consider the whole thing rather ironical.
Two championship matches ago, when you were still the one organizing it, you got into a personal fight with SCSN.
You decided to ban him on your twitch account, even though he was a player in the A-group and wanted to see it.
I was playing at the moment and unaware of anything going on, but I do understand you stripped MicQ from his moderator status for trying to solve this problem.
Bringing your personal beefs into something where you happen to have some form of power - that actually is the opposite of integrity.

The championship match after that we set up a new account to prevent all this from happening again. As I tried to explain to you, this was a personal service to you, even though you didn't recognize it as such. The only other option was making you choose between unbanning SCSN on your own channel and choosing a new commentator, which would basically have been the same as dumping you. The talks around setting up this stream were extremely stiff. Eventually you waited confirming that you were willing to commentate again (prima donna) until 30 min before the match started. I had to have a back up team available just because of that. That's the signs of a really bad team-player, very hard to work with.

I banned SCSN from my Twitch channel a long time ago because he was posting personal insults in my chat. This does not stop him from viewing anything, it just makes it so he can't post in my chat. MQ unbanned him once without asking me, and I re-banned him; since MQ didn't ask me or even tell me about it, I took away his mod powers in my channel. It's my Twitch channel, I'll ban or mod whoever I want; I stand behind all of these decisions. SCSN is the one who posted insults in my chat, that is why I banned him; I don't think anyone around here would question my integrity as a result of that decision (if you do, I can back this up, it seems pretty clear to me though).

When this was brought to your attention, you said you didn't like it and asked me to unban SCSN. I said I wasn't willing to do this on my channel. You then suggested we create another channel and we both agreed that was a good idea -- we weren't having trouble getting viewers anymore which is the main reason it was on my channel in the first place. There was some discussion about the semantics of a rule you wanted to implement on this channel that we had some disagreement on, but I didn't care enough to continue it -- this solution made everyone happy.

I'm questioning your integrity for reasons entirely unrelated to this. If you don't like it, then I'd suggest acting with integrity.

You had not told me of the date or time of that champion match until like a day or two before it was happening -- I was not included in the discussion for when that match would take place which had happened previously (these things aren't scheduled around me, but it's much easier for me to plan my life around these things if I know when they're going to be). My wife and I had plans for that weekend that we had to completely rearrange to accommodate this, and I was trying to coordinate with Deadlock to make sure I had someone to commentate with. This same situation happened with the F.DS Championship final match as well, I was not given advance notice and had to tear apart my whole weekend to make it happen for you. Am I questioning your integrity or attacking your character because of this? No. This season I was going to make sure I sent a PM reminding the contenders of the champion match to let me know once they had decided on a date/time.

I don't appreciate you blaming this on me and attacking my character (prima donna). At least this time you're doing it publicly so people can see it.

Apparently you question my decision to move your post, and label it as abuse of power. Do you realize that by moving this thread, I stripped myself of all moderator rights to edit any of its posts? And that people who now hit the 'report' button now actually report to theory, instead of reporting to me?

Theory sees all of the reports regardless, I think. This thread belongs in the Dominion League board, not here. You couldn't edit posts there without it showing up that the post had been edited. Yes, you moving the topic here is a clear abuse of power, don't try and pretend that it isn't.
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theory

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2016, 02:26:35 pm »
+11

This is not R/S/P material.  I'm fine with moving it to General Dominion Discussion so as to avoid conflicts of interest between moderators, though I would have thought that like any other complaint about the league, it would belong in the league forum.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2016, 02:30:15 pm »
+7

This topic is just going everywhere!
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Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.
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