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Author Topic: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road  (Read 3474 times)

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Qvist

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Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« on: January 17, 2012, 10:43:09 am »
0

I'm not very good with the simulator, so here a simulation challenge for you in 2 steps:

1.) There's a board with Gardens, Silk Road and Ironworks
One player is only allowed to buy Gardens, Ironworks and the base cards, the other player only Silk Road, Ironworks and base cards.
Optimize both strategies. Which one wins more often and do the strategies differ and if yes: how?

2.) There's a board with Gardens, Silk Road and any other cards
One player is allowed to buy all cards beside Silk Road, the other player all cards beside Gardens.
Which cards help the Gardens player more and which cards help the Silk Road player more?

DStu

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 11:03:52 am »
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So maybe without the sim first: With this constraints, you end with 8SR+(3+x) Estates vs 8Gardens + (3+y) Estates.

Average would be 4 Estates for both, that would give a 3VP-SR. But with 5Estates (or a Duchy) you are at 4VP-SR. I doubt 4VP Gardens with this setting.

Also it might get a bit strange that Estates get higher priority than SR/Gardens in this setting. Because you are not contested on "your" type, maybe, especially for the SR that really wants the 5th Estate it would be bettter to get Estates first.
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DStu

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 11:16:54 am »
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So to give some low-hanging fruits to beat:
Code: [Select]
<player name="Ironworks/Gardens.DStu1"
 author="DStu"
 description="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1473">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="isActionPhase"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInHand" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Estate"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gardens"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>
Code: [Select]
<player name="Ironworks/Silk Road.DStu1"
 author="DStu"
 description="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1473">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="isActionPhase"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInHand" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Estate"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
Gardens wins ~50:25:25 because somehow you often get to 40 cards with this, and in this cases either it's a tie (5 Estates for the SR) or the Garden wins.

And you really want the Estates first, because Ironworks don't really run out with this buy-rules, so the three-pile is Estate, Gardens, SR, and as said you have to fight for the Estates while the others are for free. But probably that does not matter much, in real life just swap it and the result should be more or less the same...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 11:19:03 am by DStu »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2012, 11:18:27 am »
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Not really sure that this is really a question for the sims (the second part especially).
For part 1, silk road wins (bots coming later)
For part 2, cards that swing toward gardens are cache, spammable +buys, trader, talisman, bureaucrat, explorer, jester all help gardens. Other kingdom victory cards, hoard, scout, crossroads help silk road.

DStu

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2012, 11:22:43 am »
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What's nice at this challange is that you can play that against yourself....

SR buys Duchies after SR are exhausted, don't really understand it but it wins 60:20
Code: [Select]
<player name="Ironworks/Silk Road.DStu2"
 author="DStu"
 description="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1473XXXXDon't forget about the Duchies...">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="isActionPhase"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInHand" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Estate"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road"/>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

edit: OK, maybe I should also let the Garden buy Duchies for fairness...   Garden wins 43:38
Code: [Select]
<player name="Ironworks/Gardens.DStu2"
 author="DStu"
 description="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1473">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="isActionPhase"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInHand" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Estate"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gardens"/>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

edit: Fixed Gardens-bit, thanks.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 11:48:41 am by DStu »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 11:24:53 am »
0

DStu, you realize you're buying estates BEFORE Gardens and SR?

DStu

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2012, 11:28:28 am »
0

DStu, you realize you're buying estates BEFORE Gardens and SR?

Yep, I even mentioned it here. My (first) SR Bot wins approximately 9000:0 against the (first) Garden Bot if SR buys 5 Estates before going to SR and the Garden doesn't. Because that guarantees that the SR are worth 4VPs, while with just 4 Estates they are worth 3. Estates are the resource that is scare, I have plenty of time for the SR. (Unless Gardens manage to 3-pile on Ironworks, but I didn't get that fast enough yet). Or you throw in the Duchies, I haven't tested what happens there, but the Sample Games suggest that this games also often end without Duchies bought. So Estates are still important.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2012, 11:40:22 am »
0

But they aren't more important than the gardens and SR, and they're also much, much easier to get. I REALLY don't understand your logic here. Also, your two bots in your latest post are the same as each other...
Here's my first attempt, hacked together from a previous project from about a week ago. Not terribly optimized for this situation, but... beats yours at least 85% of the time....
Code: [Select]
<player name="I/SR"
 author="WW"
 description="No description available">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInHand" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="isActionPhase"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Gardens"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Silk_Road"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Ironworks"/>
   <buy name="Silk_Road"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Silk_Road"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

Code: [Select]
<player name="I/G"
 author="WW"
 description="No description available">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Ironworks">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInHand" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="isActionPhase"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gardens">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ironworks"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Gardens"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Gardens"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Ironworks"/>
   <buy name="Gardens"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Gardens"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

Silk Road wins ~66-29

WanderingWinder

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2012, 11:41:55 am »
+1

Oh, and in any situation where this would be important, you definitely want to go SR first (but get both!), because you basically always get SR to 3 points, very often to 4, and you MIGHT get gardens to 3.

DStu

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 11:48:04 am »
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But they aren't more important than the gardens and SR, and they're also much, much easier to get. I REALLY don't understand your logic here. Also, your two bots in your latest post are the same as each other...

The Logic was the following: I said in my first post that the conditions of the challange might lead to the strange behaviour that you want Estates over SR/Gardens, which of course you would not want against a real opponent. It is because in a game where you only buy Estates, SR/Gardens, and IW, and the 3-pile is Estates, SR, Gardens, you have forever to buy all SR/Gardens if you opponent is not allowed to touch them, but you have to compete for the Estates with him. Now, as the SR really like to get to 4, which means you must buy the majority of the Estates, you want them first, and afterwards have all time of the world to buy 8 SR. As Gardener, you want to prevent this and are forced to go Estates also. The more clever way would of course to steal a SR/Garden, but you are not allowed. Or end it on IW, which the bots didn't. I'm not entirely sure that grabbing Estates is really the best move, even under this conditions [as said in RL it surely isn't], but for the bots I had it was...

Edit: If you take your SR-bot and add a "buy Estate if countInDeck(Estate)<8" in line 3, you beat the Gardens 100:0. Edit: Maybe you also lose 100:0, it's to late
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 12:00:05 pm by DStu »
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jimjam

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2012, 05:10:24 pm »
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Another issue may be that between Gardens and Silk Road players, the Gardens player will probably do better stealing SRs than vice versa, though SR may just be dominant anyways.

Also regarding 2), how would Embargo factor in? It hurts more on SR than Gardens (assuming you're not using IW or WS) though you can also embargo coppers (against Gardens).

WS is preferential to woodcutter for Gardens, I think. Would this be true for SR?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 05:25:29 pm by jimjam »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2012, 06:00:40 pm »
0

Another issue may be that between Gardens and Silk Road players, the Gardens player will probably do better stealing SRs than vice versa
Why?

Qvist

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2012, 07:43:26 am »
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Hm,
the idea was to prove WWs statement: "With Gardens and Silk Road on the board, the SR player wins" as I'm still not so convinced.
Therefore these two situations. How do these two strategies perform in a pure Ironworks rush? And: In any given kingdom, when would you switch from a Gardens rush to a SR rush and vice versa respectively?

So, can anybody simulate that or calculate that?
DStu and WW have very different results!

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2012, 07:48:30 am »
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I don't know if this is something for the simulators.

There's a lot of "denying your opponent" involved.
Isn't there a governing strategy which beats them both?
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DStu

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2012, 07:49:57 am »
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So, can anybody simulate that or calculate that?
DStu and WW have very different results!


We have different results because his bots are better than mine. Usually both our bots go for a pure Ironworkrush. I don't think they will ever buy a Province when played against each other, and they rarely buy a Duchy. His bots manage to three-pile on Estate, SR/Gardens and Ironworks, mine do not get the Ironworks down, thus the weird behaviour with the Estates. But the usual behaviour is 2 Ironworks->SR/Gardens->3 pile

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Geronimoo

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2012, 07:51:43 am »
+1

The problem with this challenge is that the first question is pretty pointless: Ironworks means you go for both Silk Roads and Gardens.

And the second question is too broad. Instead, maybe give a specific kingdom where you have doubts wether to go for Silk Road or Gardens. Then we'll have something to work with.
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Qvist

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2012, 08:31:08 am »
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Ok fine, Geronimoo. I just took WW's list above and took 4 cards for each card.

$2 Crossroads
$4 Scout
$4 Trader
$4 Bureaucrat
$4 Gardens
$4 Silk Road
$5 Cache
$5 Explorer
$6 Farmland
$6 Hoard

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Re: Simulation Challenge: Gardens vs. Silk Road
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2012, 04:07:47 pm »
0

@WW: Actually, never mind. I was thinking something about the Gardens player being better able to exploit large plus buy, without having significantly less victory cards but it's pretty flimsy.
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