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ehunt

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doubling cube
« on: February 08, 2016, 06:45:13 pm »
+2

Has anyone ever tried a series of Dominion games with a doubling cube? So you agree to play to some fixed number of wins, and then once per game you can turn the cube and pass it to your opponent to offer that they resign, or else double the stakes of the game. (Within the same game, the opponent can pass the cube back to you to quadruple the stakes or accept your resignation at double the stakes; if this happens, then theoretically you could repass it, etc...)

I think in general this would decrease the luck factor, but it would occasionally make it worse (you would probably pass the doubling cube right away if you split 5-2 on a Mountebank-Chapel board, for instance). The bigger advantage is making a tournament situation move faster.
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eHalcyon

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2016, 07:03:29 pm »
+2

Yes, it's been discussed a few times in the forums.  I think this thread is the main one; other times it's been mentioned in passing when discussing the addition of gambling or the size of first player advantage.  You can find those other threads with a quick search.
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2016, 11:27:04 pm »
+2

Man, it's not enough for some people to just play the game?
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E.Honda

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2016, 03:20:43 am »
0

I think this is a really cool idea, I love the doubling cube in Backgammon and in dominion it should be really interesting as well. Also of you get passed the cube by a 5/2 on mountebank/chapel or sthg like that you can just pass and move on to the next game faster :D
Maybe you shouldnt be able to offer the cube before your first turn else its gonna be really brutal if you have 5/2 on a board where its really strong and you make the offer without your opponent knowing
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pingpongsam

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2016, 08:25:08 am »
+1

Is the unstated portion of this mechanic that there is money involved? I'm confused about what exactly the stakes are.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2016, 08:38:38 am »
+4

Is the unstated portion of this mechanic that there is money involved? I'm confused about what exactly the stakes are.

The "stakes" are, that you're not playing just a single game, but a series of games, with the objective to be the first to reach X wins. The doubling cube helps accelerate games (in any game where one player is guaranteed, or nearly so, to win, they can use the cube to prompt a resignation). It also adds some interesting meta game -- if I pass you the cube, and you feel like you have a 40% chance to win, do you take the guaranteed one game loss? Or do you play a doubled game? What about 35% How accurately can you determine who's ahead, anyways?
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drsteelhammer

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2016, 08:40:50 am »
0

I think this is a really cool idea, I love the doubling cube in Backgammon and in dominion it should be really interesting as well. Also of you get passed the cube by a 5/2 on mountebank/chapel or sthg like that you can just pass and move on to the next game faster :D
Maybe you shouldnt be able to offer the cube before your first turn else its gonna be really brutal if you have 5/2 on a board where its really strong and you make the offer without your opponent knowing

Maybe just being able to offer after your own turn is an elegant solution for this.
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smcrtorchs

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2016, 09:22:40 am »
+2

I would like to try some matches with the doubling cube if anyone is interested, PM me. I am an ok player if you are interested in my skill level.

I have a lot of prior experience using the cube in backgammon and think this might be a cool idea.

I would like to try different points where you can offer the double, like before you see your hand and after you see it, adding some bluffing opportunities at the second case.

If you know how to use a MET (match equity table) which is necessary to take proper cube decisions in matches, then I would prefer to try some short matches up to 5 points. If you have not used a MET before in backgammon, I assume that it would be best if we played X number of games with the doubling cube with our aim being managing the best score. We would keep the score and the value of the cube manually.
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AdamH

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2016, 12:45:05 pm »
+2

This should be moved to the Variants board.

I take measures in my IRL tournaments to decrease the effect of luck, but only the ones that are the most visible. I allow players to stack their deck before the game begins so they get to determine their opening (I lol-ed so hard when one player going first decided to get a T1 Noble Brigand just to mess with people. Seeing the look on her opponents' faces was priceless :P ) and I remove certain cards like Rebuild, Cultist, and Urchin that can lead to games that don't feel good. It's a token effort I make to prevent complaints like "Roadrunner got a 5/2 on that board so he won, there was nothing I could do" and get people to leave the tournament with a warm fuzzy feeling.

There are plenty of other sources of luck in Dominion that mean much more that I make no attempt to compensate for, and people don't care. I try and make the format of my tournament compensate for the fact that there's luck in Dominion and hey, a good person has won all of my tournaments. I can only play a certain numbers of games IRL given time constraints, and the real solution is to play more games anyways. Oh well, I do what I can. Dominion has luck, what can you do? You can increase your whining skills, sure, but really, who out there can really rival me on that? :P

When I'm playing IRL and I get a really good 5/2 opening, I'll usually offer to my opponent to just take a 4/3 instead if they want. If they get the good 5/2 and offer the same to me I'll usually just let them take it. I've found that most attempts to decrease luck in Dominion don't really do very much so I'd rather just try and feel better.

Online, well you just DWI and play lots of games.

There, I've contributed to the thread.
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Limetime

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 12:50:00 pm »
+1

Dominion has luck, what can you do? You can increase your winning skills, sure, but really, who out there can really rival me on that? :P
Fixed that for you.
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terminalCopper

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2016, 01:49:49 pm »
+7

Man, it's not enough for some people to just play the game?
Actually, we're in a forum about the game. Does that answer your question?
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qmech

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2016, 02:31:22 pm »
0

With equally skilled players, does a doubling cube reduce the component of chance?  It brings estimation of winning probabilities into the game, but is there some other mechanism at work besides making the game harder (and so more rewarding to players who master both skills)?
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2016, 02:45:26 pm »
0

Man, it's not enough for some people to just play the game?
Actually, we're in a forum about the game. Does that answer your question?

Touché.
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pst

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2016, 04:46:28 pm »
+1

With equally skilled players, does a doubling cube reduce the component of chance?  It brings estimation of winning probabilities into the game, but is there some other mechanism at work besides making the game harder (and so more rewarding to players who master both skills)?

One way a doubling cube reduces chance is that a very good position then is a double–drop, that is a certain win, whereas without the cube there can be a very unlikely comeback if the leading player gets really unlucky.

(Also of course with a cube part of the skill is traded for skill in handling the cube.)

Personally I'm not that interested in trying Dominion with a doubling cube. I think a big part of what makes it interesting in backgammon is that you even without the cube you can win more than with a regular win (gammon, backgammon). That means you often get a position which is too good to double, where it's better to play on trying to have a extra valuable win. You get a doubling zone inside of which it is right to double, which increases how interesting the cube is. If you don't double now, is it too high a risk that you will have a too good position next?

In a game like Dominion where there is nothing better than just a win there is nothing like that doubling zone, and I think doubling decisions would be less interesting.
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smcrtorchs

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2016, 05:55:36 pm »
0

With equally skilled players, does a doubling cube reduce the component of chance?  It brings estimation of winning probabilities into the game, but is there some other mechanism at work besides making the game harder (and so more rewarding to players who master both skills)?



Personally I'm not that interested in trying Dominion with a doubling cube. I think a big part of what makes it interesting in backgammon is that you even without the cube you can win more than with a regular win (gammon, backgammon). That means you often get a position which is too good to double, where it's better to play on trying to have a extra valuable win. You get a doubling zone inside of which it is right to double, which increases how interesting the cube is. If you don't double now, is it too high a risk that you will have a too good position next?

In a game like Dominion where there is nothing better than just a win there is nothing like that doubling zone, and I think doubling decisions would be less interesting.


Of course there is a doubling window (what you call doubling zone) in Dominion. Gammons and backgammonsa are not activated in "money games" in backgammon until after the first double and still for sure you have a doubling windon. There is a doubling window even if both players have taken a checker off in which case you can never win a gammon or be too good to double.

As long as you have market losers you will also have a doubling window. Market losers are the rolls in backgammon and turns in dominion that turn the state of a game from a position where your opponent can accept the cube if you offer it to him (double/take) to a position where he cannot accept the cube (double pass). If we assume for simplicity that the takepoint (necessary winning percentage to be able and accept the doubling cube) is at 25%, then any turn that could boost your chance from below 75% to above 75% could be a turn where you lose your market (you lose the opportunity to double). And the probability that the above fact will happen (market losing probability) would be what we would care for in Dominion.  In every Dominion game you would have a doubling window, with volatility  being the most important factor into determining how big this window is and the potential power of a recube also affecting the width of the window a bit, but much more it effects the exact value of the takepoint.

In backgammon the too good to double cases are not that common, so I would not really consider that you lose a lot.

Here is a link that probably explains things better than I do for backgammon of course and not for dominion.

http://www.bkgm.com/articles/GOL/Aug99/double.htm
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 06:15:19 pm by smcrtorchs »
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ehunt

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2016, 07:04:52 pm »
+3

This should be moved to the Variants board.

I thought about posting it to the Variants board but decided it belonged in General Discussion, since it's not about how any individual game of Dominion is played but about how to run a series of Dominion games.
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AdamH

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2016, 08:19:18 pm »
0

This should be moved to the Variants board.

I thought about posting it to the Variants board but decided it belonged in General Discussion, since it's not about how any individual game of Dominion is played but about how to run a series of Dominion games.

I understand how it might seem that way, but as you can see the discussion in this thread is all about how it affects the way Dominion would be played, like in-game.

Oh well.
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blueblimp

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2016, 10:29:09 pm »
+2

I like having it here. The "Variants and Fan Cards" forum might as well be just "Fan Cards" forum because that's all the content, and I don't care about fan cards, so I never check it. But this discussion is interesting.

Is the unstated portion of this mechanic that there is money involved? I'm confused about what exactly the stakes are.

The "stakes" are, that you're not playing just a single game, but a series of games, with the objective to be the first to reach X wins. The doubling cube helps accelerate games (in any game where one player is guaranteed, or nearly so, to win, they can use the cube to prompt a resignation). It also adds some interesting meta game -- if I pass you the cube, and you feel like you have a 40% chance to win, do you take the guaranteed one game loss? Or do you play a doubled game? What about 35% How accurately can you determine who's ahead, anyways?
I don't quite see how this works. Let's imagine you're playing first-to-3 (which is best-of-5). If you have 2 points already, then there's no reason for you to offer a double, right? It doesn't help you and does help your opponent.
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smcrtorchs

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 04:07:09 am »
0

I like having it here. The "Variants and Fan Cards" forum might as well be just "Fan Cards" forum because that's all the content, and I don't care about fan cards, so I never check it. But this discussion is interesting.

Is the unstated portion of this mechanic that there is money involved? I'm confused about what exactly the stakes are.

The "stakes" are, that you're not playing just a single game, but a series of games, with the objective to be the first to reach X wins. The doubling cube helps accelerate games (in any game where one player is guaranteed, or nearly so, to win, they can use the cube to prompt a resignation). It also adds some interesting meta game -- if I pass you the cube, and you feel like you have a 40% chance to win, do you take the guaranteed one game loss? Or do you play a doubled game? What about 35% How accurately can you determine who's ahead, anyways?
I don't quite see how this works. Let's imagine you're playing first-to-3 (which is best-of-5). If you have 2 points already, then there's no reason for you to offer a double, right? It doesn't help you and does help your opponent.

When the stakes are points in a match, then not every point has equal value. You would never double in the case you mentioned, but this is because of the match score. At this match score the takepoint of the opponent would be 0.00001% as he has nothing to lose by accepting the doubling cube. If the score was 2-1 in your opponent's favor and the match was at 3 you would like to double almost at every opportunity as you cannot lose anything by doubling. Your opponent should pass the cube even if he has 49.9% to win the game as this will be the deciding game of the match and he can always start a new one. Therefore his takepoint in this situation is 50% This could lead to a very short game. There are many situations in between depending on the score.

Assuming optimal play, the games are shortened whenever you move directly from a no double position, a position where it is theoretically not correct to offer the cube, to a double pass position, a position where you should theoretically pass the cube when it is offered to you. This can happen for example after a lucky roll/draw.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 04:08:22 am by smcrtorchs »
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pst

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2016, 04:34:40 am »
0

Of course there is a doubling window (what you call doubling zone) in Dominion. Gammons and backgammonsa are not activated in "money games" in backgammon until after the first double and still for sure you have a doubling windon. There is a doubling window even if both players have taken a checker off in which case you can never win a gammon or be too good to double.

Yes, you are right. But I still think the doubling mechanism is more interesting when there are more possible outcomes. (And that it is not by chance it has been applied to such a game, but never has really been a hit in for example Chess, even though people have suggested and tried it lots of times.)
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AdrianHealey

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2016, 08:44:11 am »
0

I have google'd doubling cube, but I still can't figur it out what exactly it is.
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qmech

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2016, 09:00:47 am »
+1

I have google'd doubling cube, but I still can't figur it out what exactly it is.

It only makes sense if you're playing for points; if you win a game then your opponent has to give you a point (this obviously started with playing for stakes).  If you think you are favoured at some point you can ask your opponent to either concede immediately, which is a win for you, or to double the point value of the game (so the loser now gives two points to the winner).  If they "accept the double" then they now have the power to make the next offer; you can't just keep asking them to double the stakes.  A doubling cube is the traditional way to track the current point value of the game; the value is shown on the top of the cube (which has faces labelled 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64), and whoever is holding the cube has the right to make the next offer.

Note that playing with a doubling cube is not straightforward.  For example, if you wait until you are certain to win to offer a double then it will be declined.  So you want to make an offer when you're favoured but not overly so; this makes assessing the strength of your position into a key part of the game.
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smcrtorchs

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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 08:38:08 am »
+1

Of course there is a doubling window (what you call doubling zone) in Dominion. Gammons and backgammonsa are not activated in "money games" in backgammon until after the first double and still for sure you have a doubling windon. There is a doubling window even if both players have taken a checker off in which case you can never win a gammon or be too good to double.

Yes, you are right. But I still think the doubling mechanism is more interesting when there are more possible outcomes. (And that it is not by chance it has been applied to such a game, but never has really been a hit in for example Chess, even though people have suggested and tried it lots of times.)


I do agree that the doubling cube mechanism is more interesting when there are more possible outcomes. Still the way that you should use it is pretty different depending on the volatility of the position and this does create a lot of different interesting situations, even if they are less in number than what they would be if there were more possible outcomes.

I cannot really see an argument though for it not being applied to chess. First of all it is really really difficult to convince people to try any variant of a game they already enjoy as it is. Take Monopoly for example. Its design flaws are widely known to those who are interested in board game design. Now try to convince people to play Monopoly in a better and more exciting way. It is not going to work. Why? ostly because of marketing reasons and because people are resistant to learn something new when they enjoy what they did so far and they just seek the joy of a game as they remember playing it in the past with family and friends.

Trying to convince chess people to accept the doubling cube would be such a difficult task. It would probably be as difficult as trying to convince them that they should play chess with an alternative horse movement. Even if you could prove that the gameplay would be better with the alternative horse movement, very few would listen. Even if you spent millions of dollars for marketing to convince them for the alternative horse movement you would still fail to make it the standard.

For what it is worth it, I do remember people on Stick's backgammon forum saying that they apply the doubling cube almost to every game it can be applied and they do prefer it that way. Does this say much? Well it comes from people that had experience with the cube but probably also were in favor of it anyways. So probably it does not say much, but certainly the fact that it is not used in other games does not say much as well.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 08:43:18 am by smcrtorchs »
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Re: doubling cube
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2016, 09:25:44 am »
+1

I have google'd doubling cube, but I still can't figur it out what exactly it is.

It only makes sense if you're playing for points; if you win a game then your opponent has to give you a point (this obviously started with playing for stakes).  If you think you are favoured at some point you can ask your opponent to either concede immediately, which is a win for you, or to double the point value of the game (so the loser now gives two points to the winner).  If they "accept the double" then they now have the power to make the next offer; you can't just keep asking them to double the stakes.  A doubling cube is the traditional way to track the current point value of the game; the value is shown on the top of the cube (which has faces labelled 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64), and whoever is holding the cube has the right to make the next offer.

Note that playing with a doubling cube is not straightforward.  For example, if you wait until you are certain to win to offer a double then it will be declined.  So you want to make an offer when you're favoured but not overly so; this makes assessing the strength of your position into a key part of the game.
This is why I initially thought a doubling cube would be interesting in Dominion.

In Dominion you have the same situations where you think your deck is stronger without it being really obvious. Expert players would be better at correctly assessing deck strength and potential, giving them something interesting to add to their arsenal.
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