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enfynet

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Re: German translation
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2016, 02:26:16 pm »
0

Or if there is no picture at all it doesn't matter what the artistic rendering of that card ends up being. The function comes first, the name comes second, the picture comes last.
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Japo

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Re: German translation
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2016, 03:12:07 pm »
+2

Right, it's a piece of paper that is represented by a picture of a person. It's also represented by a card name. It's logical that the person the card is represented by would match the name the card is represented by. Like how when the card has a picture of a library, they name the card "Library". Or when it has a picture of a Baker, the card is named "Baker". Straight-forward and logical.

When the card is represented by a picture of a female person and also represented by a female card name, it gives you the idea that all the things that are cantrips and give you one coin token (which is associated with baking) are female. If the card is represented by a picture of a female person and the default card name, it gives you the idea that some of the things that are cantrips and give you one coin token can be, for example, female.


That's the problem. There is the default and there are women. It's pretty much the same discussion like you had about male pronouns in the card descriptions (which is the same in German).
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E.Honda

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Re: German translation
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2016, 03:24:51 pm »
0

Right, it's a piece of paper that is represented by a picture of a person. It's also represented by a card name. It's logical that the person the card is represented by would match the name the card is represented by. Like how when the card has a picture of a library, they name the card "Library". Or when it has a picture of a Baker, the card is named "Baker". Straight-forward and logical.

When the card is represented by a picture of a female person and also represented by a female card name, it gives you the idea that all the things that are cantrips and give you one coin token (which is associated with baking) are female. If the card is represented by a picture of a female person and the default card name, it gives you the idea that some of the things that are cantrips and give you one coin token can be, for example, female.

Peddler also has a woman in the picture i just noticed and it is a Baker variant  ;)
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Asper

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Re: German translation
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2016, 03:43:08 pm »
+1

Hum. I have a hard time deciding what i think of this.

For several cards, i think it's fair game to use the male form. Whyever this is the case, the male form in german is still kind of regarded as the word for a profession per se: A female can be a "Bäcker", but a male can't be a "Bäckerin". Writing "Bäcker" there doesn't line up with the picture, but it does a better job at including all bakers than "Bäckerin" does.

Now, the question is whether you want to think of Dominion cards as individual people, or about a name for a set of people. I actually think the original question in the german forum reflects the problem rather accurately: Are we talking about Candice*, the baker from around the corner, or about the set of all people with her profession? I personally think Dominion is not consistent here: You can't have 10 times the same person, but of course Peasant and Page tell stories of individuals. A long time ago people apparently decided to go with the abstract profession thing, and it worked fine for a while, because theonly relevant females were Witches, and well, Witches are kind of their own profession and some of the few examples where the female form is the standard. I assume a Nurse would have been the same (at least with a female depicted). With the increase in women (on cards named after the person shown), this problem surfaced, and well, they apparently decided to go through with it.

I agree it's not necessarily a good choice. Baker is a little weird, but hey, again, it's a profession, see my point above. For Hero, i think it's ridiculous to use the male form, as obviously the cards depict one character's story. Even when going with the male form usually, they should have made an exception here. Also, i honestly doubt a male nurse would be translated as "Krankenschwester", even though that's (or used to be) the standard expression here.

*This is actually the name our group uses to refer to Baker. Don't ask why.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 03:47:40 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: German translation
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2016, 03:44:55 pm »
0

Right, it's a piece of paper that is represented by a picture of a person. It's also represented by a card name. It's logical that the person the card is represented by would match the name the card is represented by. Like how when the card has a picture of a library, they name the card "Library". Or when it has a picture of a Baker, the card is named "Baker". Straight-forward and logical.

When the card is represented by a picture of a female person and also represented by a female card name, it gives you the idea that all the things that are cantrips and give you one coin token (which is associated with baking) are female. If the card is represented by a picture of a female person and the default card name, it gives you the idea that some of the things that are cantrips and give you one coin token can be, for example, female.


That's the problem. There is the default and there are women. It's pretty much the same discussion like you had about male pronouns in the card descriptions (which is the same in German).

This is true. It's not necessarily a problem created by Altenburger, but it exists, and one can at least state that Altenburger did not make an effort to break the pattern.
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Re: German translation
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2016, 03:55:34 pm »
0

Are we talking about Candice*
*This is actually the name our group uses to refer to Baker. Don't ask why.

+1 because I find this hilarious
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enfynet

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Re: German translation
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2016, 04:48:48 pm »
0

My play group refers to Baker as "Cassie" so in that sense the picture named the card.
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Japo

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Re: German translation
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2016, 05:17:36 pm »
+1

I just read that in the English rulebook for guilds they use the pronoun „she“ for player. In the German translation they use „Spieler“ and „er“. This is another example of how the German editors ignore Donald's/Jay's (?) try for gender equality in Dominion. This time you can't explain it with the male pronoun being the default. It's the same in English!
It's so sad.
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Asper

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Re: German translation
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2016, 05:38:17 pm »
+1

I just read that in the English rulebook for guilds they use the pronoun „she“ for player. In the German translation they use „Spieler“ and „er“. This is another example of how the German editors ignore Donald's/Jay's (?) try for gender equality in Dominion. This time you can't explain it with the male pronoun being the default. It's the same in English!
It's so sad.

I for one am not trying to explain anything. It's cool the english Guilds rulebook did this and it's remarkable. It would have been nice if the german rulebook would have done that, too, but it didn't. I'm not sure how outstanding Guilds was for doing this in english, but i personally never heard of a german rulebook (for a game not exclusively aimed at girls) that did this. So maybe Altenburger thought "Let's not risk anything." Whatever the risk is supposed to be here...

Either way, i will take this thread as a reason to reword my fan cards to be gender neutral.
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Donald X.

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Re: German translation
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2016, 06:31:11 pm »
+1

Say I really beat you up with a Warrior in a particular game. After the game we're talking about it. I might say, "yeah it really hurt you." That's fair, "it" is a card after all. I might say, "She really beat you up." I would not say "He sure beat you up." Card shows a woman.

In a way it's related to the whole plurals thing. In English you pluralize a title by adding "s" or "es." It's clearest to say, "two copies of Catcher in the Rye," but if you must, it's "two Catcher in the Ryes." It's not, oh, "two Catchers in the Rye," as if you were pluralizing the words rather than the title. That's just silly.

At this point we have 20+ years of Magic: The Gathering, with endless card titles. People refer to those titles in plural form all the time. And they don't say "four Llanowar Elveses," "four Birds of Paradises," "four City of Brasses." It's "four Llanowar Elves, four Birds of Paradise, four Cities of Brass." They treat the titles like they're the words making them up.

The gender equivalent would be to treat Baker like a woman. Four female Bakers.
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Donald X.

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Re: German translation
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2016, 06:34:42 pm »
+5

Either way, i will take this thread as a reason to reword my fan cards to be gender neutral.
Here's an early spoiler for Empires: the word "he" appears on no cards.

When we made that decision, I looked online, and it turned out the Washington Post had switched to "they" a week earlier. They felt like no-one would even notice.
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GendoIkari

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Re: German translation
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2016, 06:40:11 pm »
0

Either way, i will take this thread as a reason to reword my fan cards to be gender neutral.
Here's an early spoiler for Empires: the word "he" appears on no cards.

When we made that decision, I looked online, and it turned out the Washington Post had switched to "they" a week earlier. They felt like no-one would even notice.

Was the person who felt like no one would even notice a male or female?
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Donald X.

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Re: German translation
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2016, 08:07:37 pm »
+1

Was the person who felt like no one would even notice a male or female?
You are trying to treat something positive as negative? No-one would notice, meaning, people who might scream at them for being so awful as to use "they," would not actually notice. Not, "no-one would notice because it's all just a joke hey why are we even changing this, bros before hos."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-post-drops-the-mike--and-the-hyphen-in-e-mail/2015/12/04/ccd6e33a-98fa-11e5-8917-653b65c809eb_story.html
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markusin

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Re: German translation
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2016, 08:22:28 pm »
+3

Was the person who felt like no one would even notice a male or female?
You are trying to treat something positive as negative? No-one would notice, meaning, people who might scream at them for being so awful as to use "they," would not actually notice. Not, "no-one would notice because it's all just a joke hey why are we even changing this, bros before hos."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-post-drops-the-mike--and-the-hyphen-in-e-mail/2015/12/04/ccd6e33a-98fa-11e5-8917-653b65c809eb_story.html

I think Gendo was poking fun at "they" used in "They felt like no-one would even notice" possibly being a singular "they". Or you noticed that joke and made one of your own? I don't know. The post above is confusing me a bit.

I'm glad to hear the word "he" won't be used on any cards in Empires.
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Asper

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Re: German translation
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2016, 09:24:47 pm »
0

Either way, i will take this thread as a reason to reword my fan cards to be gender neutral.
Here's an early spoiler for Empires: the word "he" appears on no cards.

When we made that decision, I looked online, and it turned out the Washington Post had switched to "they" a week earlier. They felt like no-one would even notice.

For what it's worth, i read you last sentence as: "'They' (the word) felt like no-one would even notice." Edit: To you, Donald X.

Made complete sense to me. It's probably the word that makes the most accepted solution, so i figured, yes, 'they', that's a word people might not even notice.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 09:26:08 pm by Asper »
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Donald X.

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Re: German translation
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2016, 10:15:51 pm »
0

I think Gendo was poking fun at "they" used in "They felt like no-one would even notice" possibly being a singular "they". Or you noticed that joke and made one of your own? I don't know. The post above is confusing me a bit.

I'm glad to hear the word "he" won't be used on any cards in Empires.
I see. I of course thought he was saying, oh those people who thought no-one would notice, how dare they not think this was more momentous. My "they" was just a usual "group of people." Though as it happens one gets to make the call.
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Awaclus

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Re: German translation
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2016, 01:00:05 am »
0

That's the problem. There is the default and there are women. It's pretty much the same discussion like you had about male pronouns in the card descriptions (which is the same in German).

Complain to the German language. It's not something the translator should have the power to change.
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Japo

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Re: German translation
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2016, 04:13:09 am »
0

That's the problem. There is the default and there are women. It's pretty much the same discussion like you had about male pronouns in the card descriptions (which is the same in German).

Complain to the German language. It's not something the translator should have the power to change.


A translator should not have the power to change "she" to "er".
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Japo

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Re: German translation
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2016, 04:18:03 am »
0

The gender equivalent would be to treat Baker like a woman. Four female Bakers.


Sry Donald, this is a serious question. I've never played Magic and I'm not a native speaker. You mean "for female Bakers" not "4 female Bakers", right?
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Awaclus

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Re: German translation
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2016, 04:24:09 am »
0

A translator should not have the power to change "she" to "er".

There is no "she" in Baker.

Gender stereotypes shouldn't enter the equation when you're translating things. You just need to find a balance between being faithful to the source text and being readable in the target language (considering the target audience). If the perfect balance requires your translation to be "sexist", then it should be sexist, and in this case, you can't be both faithful to the ST and readable in the TL without using the male job title — if you make it "Bäckerin", it's no longer faithful to the ST because the ST doesn't imply that all the Bakers are female, and you could make it something like "Bäcker oder Bäckerin" but then the readability in the TL would suffer.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 04:35:14 am by Awaclus »
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Donald X.

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Re: German translation
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2016, 04:35:37 am »
+1

The gender equivalent would be to treat Baker like a woman. Four female Bakers.


Sry Donald, this is a serious question. I've never played Magic and I'm not a native speaker. You mean "for female Bakers" not "4 female Bakers", right?
No, I meant the quantity four. In Magic you often have four of a card (the limit), which is where "four" came from there; I said "four female Bakers" because I'd just been saying "four Llanowar Elves." I will repeat this concept though.

People pluralize a Magic card name like City of Brass as if it weren't a title - as if there were a city, made of brass, and we were talking about it. So, Cities of Brass. The conventional English plural of that title is actually City of Brasses. But no-one says that, ever (though you can dodge this issue by referring to "copies of City of Brass").

People treat the name like it's the thing and not just a title, for language purposes, to pluralize it. I was suggesting that gender is similar; people treat the name like it's that thing and not just a title.

The whole idea that "a baker can be male or female, we just depicted one that happened to be female" is not how people actually respond to the cards. When Baker is female, players feel like all 10 Bakers are female. The fact that a baker can be male doesn't matter; these ones are all female.
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Donald X.

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Re: German translation
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2016, 04:37:19 am »
+1

A translator should not have the power to change "she" to "er".

There is no "she" in Baker.

Gender stereotypes shouldn't enter the equation when you're translating things. You just need to find a balance between being faithful to the source text and being readable in the target language (considering the target audience). If the perfect balance requires your translation to be "sexist", then it should be sexist, and in this case, you can't be both faithful to the ST and readable in the TL without using the male job title — if you make it "Bäckerin", it's no longer faithful to the ST because the ST doesn't imply that all the Bakers are female, and you could make it something like "Bäcker oder Bäckerin" but then the readability in the TL would suffer.
In the source text, it's a female baker, but as it happens the word for that in English is gender-neutral.
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Awaclus

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Re: German translation
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2016, 04:38:48 am »
0

A translator should not have the power to change "she" to "er".

There is no "she" in Baker.

Gender stereotypes shouldn't enter the equation when you're translating things. You just need to find a balance between being faithful to the source text and being readable in the target language (considering the target audience). If the perfect balance requires your translation to be "sexist", then it should be sexist, and in this case, you can't be both faithful to the ST and readable in the TL without using the male job title — if you make it "Bäckerin", it's no longer faithful to the ST because the ST doesn't imply that all the Bakers are female, and you could make it something like "Bäcker oder Bäckerin" but then the readability in the TL would suffer.
In the source text, it's a female baker, but as it happens the word for that in English is gender-neutral.

So I am, in fact, buying 10 copies of the same person?
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Donald X.

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Re: German translation
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2016, 04:57:58 am »
0

So I am, in fact, buying 10 copies of the same person?
In Magic, Legends (and Legendary things, and now they're all Legendary instead of Legend) represent unique people/monsters (and places). Why do you get to play four of a Legend in your deck? Originally you didn't - they're supposed to be unique. It was bad for gameplay though, for no reason. What if we both play a copy of the same Legend? Originally one of the copies died - only one of us can have that Legend on our side. That was bad for gameplay too. These days we both get to have that Legend on the table at once (and play four copies). You don't get to have two copies in play yourself but that's it. I'm not sure what the flavor explanation is when we both have the same Legend - the Legend is putting in hours for both of us? If they fight each other, that's uh internal struggle?

Anyway I haven't put that work into Dominion's flavor (ask anyone). I can't tell you the in-universe official explanation of there being ten Bakers. But to people playing the game, all Bakers are female.
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Re: German translation
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2016, 06:08:42 am »
+1

i personally never heard of a german rulebook (for a game not exclusively aimed at girls) that did this.

The Swiss game "Anno Domini" has female gender pronouns in its rulebook. But that's the only example I know, and maybe this kind of thing is handled differently in Switzerland.
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