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Author Topic: The Dominion online 2017 thread  (Read 57009 times)

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Watno

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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #250 on: January 06, 2017, 10:26:27 am »
0

How about using text-to-speech and have the log read to players?
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Witherweaver

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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #251 on: January 06, 2017, 10:29:36 am »
+3

I don't think any UI can make it possible to follow everything by looking at the board only. When I play Dominion IRL (which admittedly is not super often), staring at what other players are doing with their hands is not enough. There also needs to be some talking happening. The log just substitutes for the talking.

Maybe audio could be used more in game?
Dominion has a lot going on, so trying to display it all clearly on screen is a challenge.
One way to transmit more data would be to switch some of the load to audio.

Eww.. I would personally hate this.  I guess there could be sounds for different effects... Draw, Trash, playing an Attack, Gaining cards.  It would have to be very subtle, though, I think. 

I generally immediately turn all sound off (music and effects) for any kind of game that isn't full and immersive, like those on a console (e.g., PS4).
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #252 on: January 06, 2017, 10:31:56 am »
+3

I never, ever play with audio on anything. Also, this is horrible for people who maybe want to play at night when others are asleep or for deaf people, etc. Personally, I like a permanent log but I can understand people not wanting to sacrifice screen space for it. It definitely needs to be a thing I can fix in place for permanent space once finalized.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #253 on: January 06, 2017, 11:22:43 am »
+1

As long as we are mentioning features, eitehr one of these wouldw work:

- The option to ban a card
- The option that I automatically resign when rebuild is on the board
- The option that I automatically resign when someone buys rebuild

Shoudn't the second include the third?

Black Market.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #254 on: January 06, 2017, 11:38:28 am »
0

I never, ever play with audio on anything. Also, this is horrible for people who maybe want to play at night when others are asleep or for deaf people, etc. Personally, I like a permanent log but I can understand people not wanting to sacrifice screen space for it. It definitely needs to be a thing I can fix in place for permanent space once finalized.

How can adding an option that can be turned off be:
"this is horrible for people who maybe want to play at night when others are asleep or for deaf people, etc"

I would probably play without sound as well, I played Goko with no music, no sound effects. Just thinking of options that might be helpful to some of the players.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #255 on: January 06, 2017, 11:53:37 am »
0

I never, ever play with audio on anything. Also, this is horrible for people who maybe want to play at night when others are asleep or for deaf people, etc. Personally, I like a permanent log but I can understand people not wanting to sacrifice screen space for it. It definitely needs to be a thing I can fix in place for permanent space once finalized.

How can adding an option that can be turned off be:
"this is horrible for people who maybe want to play at night when others are asleep or for deaf people, etc"

I would probably play without sound as well, I played Goko with no music, no sound effects. Just thinking of options that might be helpful to some of the players.

The horrible part would substituting audio cues for graphical or logged cues so that the player must have audio in order to follow the game state with any real accuracy.
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Rabid

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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #256 on: January 06, 2017, 11:58:48 am »
0

Ah I see, thanks for the clarification.
My intent was additional audio, for those that don't like the log.
Not "we added audio so let's not bother with the log any more"
But I see that I wasn't clear about that.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #257 on: January 06, 2017, 12:02:26 pm »
+1

Who's saying they don't like the log?  I like the log.  I just don't want to have to rely on it.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #258 on: January 06, 2017, 12:07:56 pm »
+4

Who's saying they don't like the log?  I like the log.  I just don't want to have to rely on it.

It's better than bad, it's good!

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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #259 on: January 06, 2017, 12:28:10 pm »
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I don't mind the log, but I did like in MF that I never needed the log.

Did you play with animations on or something?

As someone said above, the log takes the place of saying goes out loud during IRL play "I play a Village, then a Village, then Catacombs, yuck I'm discarding these three, another Catacombs.... etc."
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #260 on: January 06, 2017, 12:36:59 pm »
+1

I don't mind the log, but I did like in MF that I never needed the log.

Did you play with animations on or something?

As someone said above, the log takes the place of saying goes out loud during IRL play "I play a Village, then a Village, then Catacombs, yuck I'm discarding these three, another Catacombs.... etc."

That sort of text would be in the middle of the screen on MF. I liked that.

I usually used the log on MF, but on my phone the game was playable and easy to follow without it. That was nice. I hope someday this version gets to that level. They're clearly trying.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #261 on: January 06, 2017, 01:03:23 pm »
+5

They're clearly trying.

Which is really the difference between Shuffle iT and MF.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #262 on: January 06, 2017, 01:04:33 pm »
0

I don't mind the log, but I did like in MF that I never needed the log.

Did you play with animations on or something?

As someone said above, the log takes the place of saying goes out loud during IRL play "I play a Village, then a Village, then Catacombs, yuck I'm discarding these three, another Catacombs.... etc."

I had animations of or maybe at the fastest possible speed.

I know what the cards do. Why would I need to hear it?
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #263 on: January 06, 2017, 01:59:39 pm »
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Reading the shuffle it forums is weird.. like almost everything people are criticizing are things that we here have been talking about as desirable, and things they say they want are things most of us here think are bad.  I can almost tell who is an f.ds member and who isn't without looking at usernames.

I've noticed this as well. The tricky thing for the developers is making the app satisfy both populations.

"Sweet! This reminds me of playing on Isotropic!"

"Eww! This reminds me of playing on Isotropic!"
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #264 on: January 06, 2017, 02:11:58 pm »
+5

Reading the shuffle it forums is weird.. like almost everything people are criticizing are things that we here have been talking about as desirable, and things they say they want are things most of us here think are bad.  I can almost tell who is an f.ds member and who isn't without looking at usernames.

I've noticed this as well. The tricky thing for the developers is making the app satisfy both populations.

"Sweet! This reminds me of playing on Isotropic!"

"Eww! This reminds me of playing on Isotropic!"

See, but again, it seems like gearing it toward hardcore players is actively pushing away more casual players.  Like this thread: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1141.0

If you want Stef and SCSN to stay in business, they need to make money.
For them to make money, they need lots of subscribers.
The total active userbase of f.ds is not enough subscribers.

To that end, I think the interface should defer to the casual user where it can.  It would be great if you could toggle between "efficient" and "casual friendly", but what's more important is getting casual players playing.  You guys are going to play on Shuffle iT no matter what happens, you all love Dominion.  Casuals aren't going to play if they don't like it.  So maybe listen to their complaints and cater to them a little bit.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #265 on: January 06, 2017, 02:14:30 pm »
0

Reading the shuffle it forums is weird.. like almost everything people are criticizing are things that we here have been talking about as desirable, and things they say they want are things most of us here think are bad.  I can almost tell who is an f.ds member and who isn't without looking at usernames.

I've noticed this as well. The tricky thing for the developers is making the app satisfy both populations.

"Sweet! This reminds me of playing on Isotropic!"

"Eww! This reminds me of playing on Isotropic!"

See, but again, it seems like gearing it toward hardcore players is actively pushing away more casual players.  Like this thread: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1141.0

If you want Stef and SCSN to stay in business, they need to make money.
For them to make money, they need lots of subscribers.
The total active userbase of f.ds is not enough subscribers.

To that end, I think the interface should defer to the casual user where it can.  It would be great if you could toggle between "efficient" and "casual friendly", but what's more important is getting casual players playing.  You guys are going to play on Shuffle iT no matter what happens, you all love Dominion.  Casuals aren't going to play if they don't like it.  So maybe listen to their complaints and cater to them a little bit.

Yep. I think you and I are on exactly the same page here.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #266 on: January 06, 2017, 02:15:27 pm »
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Yeah, I think the suggestions coming out of that thread are pretty good.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #267 on: January 06, 2017, 06:57:30 pm »
+2

You guys are going to play on Shuffle iT no matter what happens, you all love Dominion.  Casuals aren't going to play if they don't like it.  So maybe listen to their complaints and cater to them a little bit.

I may love Dominion, but I like Dominion as it was on Isotropic.  I stopped playing Goko when it was clear they weren't going to make it anything like that, and came back to try once on MF's client, which wasn't all that much different.  I just wasn't interested in paying to play Dominion on that kind of interface, especially not buying all the sets again.  And I definitely don't like Dominion enough to play a bunch of base set again and again (which is why I'm annoyed at how many Base cards seem to be in game with most people).  I care more about being able to play quickly and crisply, and against players of similar skill from whom I can potentially learn things.  Most people aren't like me, I understand that.  But my opinion is still valid.

What I failed to mention before that was brought back up was the promise of a pared-down interface.  That's something I'd definitely like to see, but certainly it shouldn't be a priority; fixing things that are broken is the priority.  Nevertheless, I was under the (perhaps greatly misguided) impression, based only on my own thoughts about how I would be doing this, that you'd first build a developer's interface version primarily for testing the game engine, and then build the graphical interface over top of that, while making the developer's interface available to players who for some reason might want to play that.  It might not even have been all that great to start, but it at least would have been in the minimalistic style of Isotropic's text interface that I had come to love and enjoy.  But if that's not how things actually turned out, then I guess it needs to be left on the back burner for a while.

I also was under the impression that Donald X played with Inheritance on some version of the new client, and yet it's not available when the client is released.  Did something in Empires break it, was that implementation completely separate from what you came up with later, or was it actually not implemented very well originally?
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #268 on: January 06, 2017, 07:05:50 pm »
0

I am not completely sure but i think the reason inheritance and stash arnt implemented is messy dominion rules.(new shuffleing rule for stash)
Another reason is that stef has been overwhelmed by people who have had email troubles.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #269 on: January 06, 2017, 07:42:35 pm »
0

Going back through the discussion about the log reminded me that there's a lot that actually isn't in the log.  I'm of the opinion that the log (or at  least *some* log, if not the default one) should have the information to be able to reconstruct the entire game (although with some information hidden before the game ends, obviously).  Right now it doesn't tell you about people's choices with cards - at least, not all the time.  For instance, with Courtier, you don't know if they chose +1 action, +1 buy, or +$3.  Only the gain a gold creates a log event (as far as I can tell).  Similar things are true with Pawn.  You can tell what someone picks with Steward only if they didn't choose +$2; they probably did if you can't see, but they might have decided to draw from no cards for some reason (is there any actual good reason?).  When someone discards for Hamlet, you don't know from the log whether it's for an action or for a buy.  Thus, as you read through the log, you don't know how many actions, buys or coins someone has if it's due to cards with choice effects that have no other effect on the game, or in the case of Hamlet, no difference in effect between two options.  While the game will display the relevant information at the time to make necessary decisions, it's harder to analyze the log after the game.  This may not be a huge deal, but I'll point you back at my opinion in the second sentence of this paragraph.

Other things about the log:

When you top deck with Scheme (or Herbalist, or Walled Village, or something else in cleanup), it doesn't say what's being used to top deck the card.  While I'm not sure that it's relevant to know exactly which effect was used, it would be nice for clarity.

The non-action card revealed off Scrying Pool is listed first instead of the more obvious last.

Secret Passage always says "top deck" even if that's not where you put the card.
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Polk5440

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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #270 on: January 06, 2017, 07:50:06 pm »
0

I also was under the impression that Donald X played with Inheritance on some version of the new client, and yet it's not available when the client is released.  Did something in Empires break it, was that implementation completely separate from what you came up with later, or was it actually not implemented very well originally?

I am wondering that, too.

Well if it does anything for you, I'd played with Inheritance on Stef's program before I played with it on MF's.

Does Stef's Inheritance actually work properly with Reserves?
I don't remember, and am not checking, but note that he had the advantage of starting the project knowing about the existence of all of the trickiest Dominion cards.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #271 on: January 06, 2017, 08:32:15 pm »
0

I am seeing few to none of the Base cards and tons of new cards with new being defined as Dark Ages and newer. I'm getting tons of exposure to cards I've not played with. I'm not sure how Raz is getting a bunch of Base games.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #272 on: January 06, 2017, 08:57:30 pm »
+2

Ok, I just played about 3 shuffles of a Page board always getting at least two of them, and was wondering where the hell my treasure hunters were when I apparently had been telling the game constantly that I wanted to keep them.  The multiple traveler dialog box is really, really, really, really bad.  Why would clicking on exchange, changing the coloring, cause it to go from being exchanged to being kept?  It literally makes no sense at all.  And this isn't even the first time I had multiple traveler turns.  The interface is so counter-intuitive, that I didn't even remember how it works a few days later.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #273 on: January 06, 2017, 09:04:15 pm »
0

I am seeing few to none of the Base cards and tons of new cards with new being defined as Dark Ages and newer. I'm getting tons of exposure to cards I've not played with. I'm not sure how Raz is getting a bunch of Base games.

As I've played a bit since my first post, I can say now it's definitely better than it was when I played back at the beginning of the week.  Perhaps people are discovering why they were getting Base-heavy games and managed to fix it.  I will note, however, that I had one game of about 10 that was very heavily weighted towards Base, so I think it's something that's still a process new players have to go through.
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Re: The Dominion online 2017 thread
« Reply #274 on: January 06, 2017, 09:34:30 pm »
0

Oh, given that there's no way to access the log after the game screen is left, perhaps my rant about how useless the log is in recreating the game is rather moot at this point.  Nevertheless, I expect at some point that we will be able to have full access to our past games and be able to replay them, just like on the Prismata client.  While they're dealing with a simply deterministic game and Dominion has shuffling, shuffling is the only randomness (ok, Black Market, anything else?), so all you need to do is have each shuffle encoded into the log.  Getting such a fully comprehensive log would be a major project if it was not initially planned, but having played Prismata for a while, I'm really missing that whole ability to go back and luck at each game stage by stage.
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