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Author Topic: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)  (Read 11804 times)

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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2016, 07:59:16 pm »
+2

Up to $1 more!
I want to turn $4s into $5s and $6s into $3s!  We could price it at $6, so it won't be fortressable.


Marcory

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2016, 08:07:22 pm »
0

To avoid the Fortress problem, could the initial wording be rendered as, 'Trash a card from your hand that has not already been trashed this turn?' Or would that be too complex?

This would also solve issues with Graverobber on megaturns, though that's probably not an issue.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 08:08:42 pm by Marcory »
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2016, 09:17:25 pm »
0

To avoid the Fortress problem, could the initial wording be rendered as, 'Trash a card from your hand that has not already been trashed this turn?' Or would that be too complex?

This would also solve issues with Graverobber on megaturns, though that's probably not an issue.

I don't think that works since there's no way to make it accountable.  It's the same reason why reactions are designed to be idempotent or else remove themselves from your hand when used, instead of it just being a general rule that a Reaction can only be revealed once per trigger.  You could just say "this is a different copy of the reaction", or "I am now trashing a different copy of Fortress".
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2016, 10:54:46 pm »
+1

Up to $1 more!
I want to turn $4s into $5s and $6s into $3s!  We could price it at $6, so it won't be fortressable.

Wait you're right.  I don't know why I was thinking it had to be exactly $1 more to not be Fortressable.  Can I change my vote to up to $1 more?
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2016, 11:28:12 pm »
0

If so many people are changing their votes, it might be better to just re-poll for the sake of accountability.

Edit: FWIW, I think "up to $1 more" at $6 cost could be OK too.  I was thinking "exactly $1 more" would be too weak for $6; it slipped my mind that "up to $1 more" would be sufficient to address the Fortress issue.  I think I still prefer "exactly $2 more" though.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 11:34:03 pm by eHalcyon »
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enfynet

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2016, 11:56:58 pm »
0

Or we can just open discussion on the subject, and make a declaration when we reach agreement?
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Asper

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2016, 05:53:36 am »
+1

I think neither option is satisfactory. Up to $1 more is bad if you use it to trash junk, and not strong enough for $6. I mean, Transmogrify does this as a Reserve and is arguably better at it. Exactly $1is fine for junk, but will fail often, and you won't be able to downgrade to get something better. Still too bad for $6. Up to $2 and not allowing IP seems okay, but a tad clunky. "Exactly $2 more" is just weird, and makes the card's use very limited. You'll make $4s out of Estates, and that's usually it. We could also drop the price to $4 and say "exactly $1 more" or "$1 or $2 more", but, alas, we voted for the price before that.

I'm in favour of "up to $2" and excluding the card itself.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2016, 06:16:44 am »
0

If so many people are changing their votes, it might be better to just re-poll for the sake of accountability.

Gets my vote.
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Marcory

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2016, 10:37:48 am »
+1

To prevent the Fortress problem, what about instead:

"Put a card on your Reserve mat. Gain a card costing [X more than it.]. If the gained card is an Action, play it'

This will make this a pseudo-trasher for most cards, but the interaction with Reserve cards (including Coin of the Realm and Distant Lands), Miser, Gardens, and Silk Roads could be a feature rather than a bug. And it would avoid the Fortress problem.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 10:49:01 am by Marcory »
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2016, 10:51:33 am »
0

To prevent the Fortress problem, what about instead:

"Put a card on your Reserve mat. Gain a card costing [X more than it.]. If the gained card is an Action, play it'

This will make this a pseudo-trasher for most cards, but the interaction with Reserve cards (including Coin of the Realm and Distant Lands), Miser, Gardens, and Silk Roads could be a feature rather than a bug. And it would avoid the Fortress problem.

I like it, but is it too strong for being able to mill Provinces and Colonies without actually trashing the card?
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Marcory

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2016, 10:57:07 am »
0

To prevent the Fortress problem, what about instead:

"Put a card on your Reserve mat. Gain a card costing [X more than it.]. If the gained card is an Action, play it'

This will make this a pseudo-trasher for most cards, but the interaction with Reserve cards (including Coin of the Realm and Distant Lands), Miser, Gardens, and Silk Roads could be a feature rather than a bug. And it would avoid the Fortress problem.

I like it, but is it too strong for being able to mill Provinces and Colonies without actually trashing the card?

This won't be a problem with a gain costing exactly X more.  Also, I keep forgetting that it's a Tavern mat, not a Reserve mat.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 10:58:53 am by Marcory »
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2016, 11:00:29 am »
0

To prevent the Fortress problem, what about instead:

"Put a card on your Reserve mat. Gain a card costing [X more than it.]. If the gained card is an Action, play it'

This will make this a pseudo-trasher for most cards, but the interaction with Reserve cards (including Coin of the Realm and Distant Lands), Miser, Gardens, and Silk Roads could be a feature rather than a bug. And it would avoid the Fortress problem.

I like it, but is it too strong for being able to mill Provinces and Colonies without actually trashing the card?

This won't be a problem with a gain costing exactly X more.

Oh, I thought it was a suggestion for avoiding the Fortress problem with "up to $2".  Yeah, that still sounds good.  It gains added functionality of being able to Island stuff.
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Marcory

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2016, 11:03:48 am »
0

If you gain X costing exactly $1 more, this allows for Province->Platinum, but I don't think that's game-breaking, especially because doing so costs you the +1 Action.
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Asper

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2016, 12:26:51 pm »
+1

To prevent the Fortress problem, what about instead:

"Put a card on your Reserve mat. Gain a card costing [X more than it.]. If the gained card is an Action, play it'

This will make this a pseudo-trasher for most cards, but the interaction with Reserve cards (including Coin of the Realm and Distant Lands), Miser, Gardens, and Silk Roads could be a feature rather than a bug. And it would avoid the Fortress problem.

I like it, but is it too strong for being able to mill Provinces and Colonies without actually trashing the card?

This won't be a problem with a gain costing exactly X more.  Also, I keep forgetting that it's a Tavern mat, not a Reserve mat.

I think it should go on your Island Mat, a India-Panther mat or just get set aside. There's absolutely no need for having this interact with Reserves, and the Island Mat does the job nicely.
Also, making it able to Islands away VP cards could actually be the buff this needs to cost $6 and still go with some "exactly" stuff.
Not a fan of what the majority voted for, actually.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 12:28:11 pm by Asper »
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spiralstaircase

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2016, 01:25:45 pm »
0

Is islanding close enough to trashing to be the thing we voted for?
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Asper

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2016, 02:28:01 pm »
0

Is islanding close enough to trashing to be the thing we voted for?

Closer than the Reserve Mat. Which still means no.

On the other hand, "Costing $1 or $2 more" isn't the same as "up to $2 more", either. And i really don't see why this even was an option. If it was to solve the Fortress issue, well, it doesn't solve it. We could have just gone with "up to $2 more", like the card i voted for, and solved the issue another way. For example using the Island Mat. This way we'd have the same number of differences from the original, but actually solved a problem.
Edit: This last part is nonsense. Still, just changing it to "exactly" doesn't solve the Fortress issue on its own - it does only when combined with yet another change or a price for India-Panther that's too high to gain this way.

Edit: Wow, just realized that my last three posts before this one bagan with "i think" (thought in one case). Am i really saying this that often? Also: C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 03:13:14 pm by Asper »
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enfynet

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2016, 02:43:01 pm »
+1

I think you are.

Islanding/Reserving does nerf the interaction with at least 8 cards:

Overgrown Estate
Squire
Feodum
Fortress (our current concern)
Catacombs
Cultist
Sir Vander
Hunting Grounds
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 02:44:50 pm by enfynet »
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Asper

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2016, 03:11:42 pm »
0

I think you are.

Islanding/Reserving does nerf the interaction with at least 8 cards:

Overgrown Estate
Squire
Feodum
Fortress (our current concern)
Catacombs
Cultist
Sir Vander
Hunting Grounds

It also nerfs the interaction with Curse, while strengthening the Interaction with every Victory card (except Distand Lands which stays the same - edit: and Feodum).

Oh, i didn't think enough last post, no wonder i didn't write that there... Obviously you can't have "up to" and Islands, or you'd just be gaining Provinces all the time. So, when advocating Islands, i assumed an "exactly" wording, but forgot about it and wrote against it... Derp.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 03:14:50 pm by Asper »
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Accatitippi

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2016, 04:38:17 pm »
0

I might be missing something, but it seems to me think you're underestimating the power of repeatedly (vs one-shot) islanding victory cards. I think that power alone might be worth 6$, really. It essentially makes your Engine go on forever.

I also would like to change my vote, I'm afraid.  :-\
exactly 2 -> up to 1 more
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Asper

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2016, 05:25:15 pm »
0

I might be missing something, but it seems to me think you're underestimating the power of repeatedly (vs one-shot) islanding victory cards. I think that power alone might be worth 6$, really. It essentially makes your Engine go on forever.

I also would like to change my vote, I'm afraid.  :-\
exactly 2 -> up to 1 more

Actually, i'm well aware of that, though i wasn't thinking about what kind of strategy it leads us to. If this card costs $6 and makes you gain cards costing $1 more than what you Islanded, (which i made out to be a good idea before), it becomes a very strong use case to Island Duchies for more copies of Island-Panther - probably to the degree of being broken. The fact that the card itself interacts with opponent's VP cards in that respect is also a bit weird, as it might help or harm them depending on whether they go for a mirror or not. So, basically, the card forces you to go with it, and i don't like that. All in all, this isn't as good a solution as i believed.
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GendoIkari

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2016, 11:16:17 pm »
0

Replies/opinions!

1. I'm happy to see so much discussion around this.  :)

2. I would say that "set aside permanently" fits within the category of "trash" (so would "return to the supply"). But I don't like it here. I agree with Accatitippi that it boosts the power too much. I don't think it was suggested that it would be combined with an "up to" wording, but if it were, then it becomes "gain a Province" when you can line it up with a Province. Or Colony! Using the Island Mat seems bad because outside of the card named "Island", what's an Island Mat? Same for Tavern. India-Panther Mat would be better, but who wants a new Mat? Just plain set-aside could work, but I think it would be confusing as to why it's getting set aside.

All that aside, eHalcyon said it "gains added functionality", which is true, but I think that's a bad thing. The card does enough without it. It's a big change to fix a specific problem.

Returning to the supply would fix Fortress without adding to the power level; the only real reason I wouldn't like that much is because it feels like people would say "why isn't this just being trashed instead?" Plus, it means you can't remodel any non-Supply cards.

3. For voting, none of the "I change my vote" posts seem like they would change this fact: "Exactly $2 more" and "Either $1 or $2 more" got more votes than the others by a good bit. My "vote" would be for just a runoff between those 2.

As for why "Either or $2 more" is an option, no, it's not to fix Fortress. It was suggested because it's something that hasn't been done yet. Something that's stronger than the "exactly" options, while still being weaker than "up to "

4. As for fixing Fortress, as said somewhere else, my vote would be for not auto-playing if the gained action is India-Panther. This would make draining the pile require other conditions aside from colliding 2 cards. And that should be fine, under the right conditions you can instantly drain Rats as well. But we can take a separate vote for how to fix fortress, with those types of options. Unless "Exactly more" wins the runoff, in which case it's not a problem unless we choose to cost it at (which seems less likely if it's an exactly).
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 11:18:09 pm by GendoIkari »
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enfynet

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2016, 11:38:43 pm »
0

I honestly never considered the "$1 or $2 More" as an option. It doesn't seem different enough from "Up to $2 More" to be worth the extra rules text. So my vote between those two would automatically go to "Exactly $2 More".
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