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Author Topic: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)  (Read 11805 times)

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GendoIkari

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You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« on: February 01, 2016, 10:28:21 am »
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India-Panther: Action-Reaction,  to .
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to more than it.
If the gained card is an action, play it.
_______________________________________________________________________
When any player gains a Victory card, you may reveal this from your hand.
If you do, the player gaining the card puts it on top of his deck.


So here's our card as of now. Up to more might be really strong. Of course sometimes "up to" makes a trasher weaker, but this one isn't really meant for thinning out Coppers anyway. This one is really an upgraded version of Remodel. Anyway, let's tweak the remodel effect (or not).

One consideration for this is the Fortress effect. As written, if you have a single India and a single Fortress in hand, you immediately drain the India pile, unless this ends up being a cost card anyway. And aside from the power of emptying a whole pile for end game stuff, a hand of 5 Indias isn't too bad, especially not with Fortress around.

Anyway, there's multiple ways this could be addressed, or we could decide it doesn't need to be addressed. But one way would simply be to not allow the upgrade amount to fit the cost difference between Fortress and this. We don't know what this costs, of course. If it does cost , then the only set of options that would work would be "exactly more". Just some things to think about; I don't know what will work best.

Poll closes Saturday in case anyone is only around on the weekends. After that we'll vote on price. And then that's probably all except for name and art. Feel free to discuss other ideas or tweaks that might need to be made.
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Davio

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2016, 04:41:53 am »
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I want to change my vote from up to $2 -> exactly $2 more.

So if that was to be the tiebreaker, there you have it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 10:24:42 am »
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I want to change my vote from up to $2 -> exactly $2 more.

So if that was to be the tiebreaker, there you have it.

No problem. unlikely to come down to a single vote, but you never know!
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Gubump

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 10:32:17 am »
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I want to change my vote from up to $2 -> exactly $2 more.

So if that was to be the tiebreaker, there you have it.

No problem. unlikely to come down to a single vote, but you never know!

I also changed my mind on the vote; originally, I said "either $1 or $2 more," but I want to change it to "exactly $2 more."
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Davio

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2016, 01:59:41 am »
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As no one else is replying the current vote is 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0. :)
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enfynet

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2016, 03:22:30 am »
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I am trying to come up with reasons to vote for something different. If I don't, then I am okay with that result.
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2016, 01:20:07 pm »
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I'm for exactly $2 more.  Eliminates the Fortress issue and makes it more unique compared to Remodel.  Lowers the power a bit for a card that already has a lot going on.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2016, 03:19:33 pm »
+1

I don't like fortress being a consideration for this. Fun should always be the biggest consideration.
Exactly 2 more means you often can't remodel something costing $4 or more into an action card. Many of the cards you buy mainly for the early game and then want to tfb later cost $4.
I voted up to $1 more.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:23:53 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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LastFootnote

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2016, 03:22:29 pm »
+2

I don't like fortress being a consideration for this. Fun should always be the biggest consideration.
Exactly 2 more means you often can't remodel something costing $4 or more into an action card.

The problem is, many people find two-card combos that can just instantly run out a pile to be anti-fun.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2016, 03:29:07 pm »
+1

I don't like fortress being a consideration for this. Fun should always be the biggest consideration.
Exactly 2 more means you often can't remodel something costing $4 or more into an action card.

The problem is, many people find two-card combos that can just instantly run out a pile to be anti-fun.
Don't play with india panther and fortress together. How easy is that?  It's not like we can use this in the online game where (for some reason) everyone wants to play full random.

Or we can nullify the interaction some other way if people insist on it (which it seems they probably will).
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:32:40 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2016, 08:08:48 pm »
+3

I don't like fortress being a consideration for this. Fun should always be the biggest consideration.
Exactly 2 more means you often can't remodel something costing $4 or more into an action card.

The problem is, many people find two-card combos that can just instantly run out a pile to be anti-fun.
Don't play with india panther and fortress together. How easy is that?  It's not like we can use this in the online game where (for some reason) everyone wants to play full random.

Or we can nullify the interaction some other way if people insist on it (which it seems they probably will).

People find it fun to play full random, even IRL.  Most of us want to treat this (and other fan cards) as if they were actual cards being designed for the actual game, even if they would never actually be published.  So having to exclude Fortress is a non-starter.
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Davio

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2016, 02:16:58 am »
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I'm for exactly $2 more.  Eliminates the Fortress issue and makes it more unique compared to Remodel.  Lowers the power a bit for a card that already has a lot going on.
The reason I'm for exactly $2 more has nothing to do with Fortress; I just think up to $2 more is too strong.
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2016, 03:02:44 am »
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I'm for exactly $2 more.  Eliminates the Fortress issue and makes it more unique compared to Remodel.  Lowers the power a bit for a card that already has a lot going on.
The reason I'm for exactly $2 more has nothing to do with Fortress; I just think up to $2 more is too strong.

That is among the reasons I listed for why I think it's a good idea. :)
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GendoIkari

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2016, 09:37:45 am »
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So how different is "1 or 2 more" from "up to 2 more"? Mostly it means you can't use it to empty out the Province pile when you're winning, right?
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2016, 11:57:13 am »
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So how different is "1 or 2 more" from "up to 2 more"? Mostly it means you can't use it to empty out the Province pile when you're winning, right?

It's worth noting (for those who care) that allowing $1 more does not address the Fortress problem if IndiaPanther costs $5.  Hmm, I just realized that, likewise, exactly $2 more doesn't help if IP costs $6.  I've just been thinking of it as a $5 card though.  "1 or 2" doesn't help unless the card costs $7+.
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GendoIkari

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2016, 12:36:19 pm »
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So how different is "1 or 2 more" from "up to 2 more"? Mostly it means you can't use it to empty out the Province pile when you're winning, right?

It's worth noting (for those who care) that allowing $1 more does not address the Fortress problem if IndiaPanther costs $5.  Hmm, I just realized that, likewise, exactly $2 more doesn't help if IP costs $6.  I've just been thinking of it as a $5 card though.  "1 or 2" doesn't help unless the card costs $7+.

Yup. It was a circular dependency... surely we can't fairly decide a price until we know what it lets you gain; but we can't prevent Fortress-issue with this poll without knowing for sure how much it costs.
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GendoIkari

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2016, 12:42:02 pm »
+1

I'm starting to think that having "if the gained card is an action card other than India-Panther, play it" might be best. So don't prevent gaining itself, but don't give the auto-play if you do. This way, the Fortress thing only works if you have a lot of free actions lying around (Lost Arts, Champion, many Villages); so it's still possible, but requiring a third condition should be enough to make it not a complaint.
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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2016, 03:30:44 pm »
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I like "up to", because this makes the card more similar to Remodel, and easier to understand in the process. This could in fact have us end up with a decently streamlined card, not that three-headed monster i was fearing we'd get.


This way, the Fortress thing only works if you have a lot of free actions lying around (Lost Arts, Champion, many Villages)

Well, Fortresses are Villages, and cheap enough to gain a lot of them, especially with a tfb card. Probably IP favours the lucky too much on a Fortress board without this rule, but it seems really lackluster in all other situations.
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Davio

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2016, 02:37:54 am »
+1

I suggest we stop trying to solve the Fortress issue, can't we just accept that only 1 in every 40.000 games will have this combo?
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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2016, 03:52:50 am »
+1

I suggest we stop trying to solve the Fortress issue, can't we just accept that only 1 in every 40.000 games will have this combo?

First, I'm not sure where you get 40000.  I got only 1 out of 616 (10*9/(236*235)).  But the much more relevant measure is how often the combo appears given that India Panther appears, since it doesn't matter what India Panther does in the games where it's not available.  And that is just 9/235, which is nearly 4% of the time.  So 4% of the time India Panther is available, we have a potentially game-breaking combo.  I think that's significant enough that we should try to work around it.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2016, 06:06:02 am »
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Agreed we should solve the Fortress issue, but hobbling the card to do so seems like a poor choice, given that we have other ways of doing so.  'Exactly $2' seems very limiting, to the point that $4 might be more appropriate, and then we're breaking our original vote.
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2016, 12:16:45 pm »
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Agreed we should solve the Fortress issue, but hobbling the card to do so seems like a poor choice, given that we have other ways of doing so.  'Exactly $2' seems very limiting, to the point that $4 might be more appropriate, and then we're breaking our original vote.

It would require play testing, but I think the ability to immediately play the action cards you gain makes up for that, not even considering the reaction.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2016, 03:10:23 pm »
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Huh, I voted exactly $1 more (assuming we can raise the price to $6 later) because I thought exactly $2 more for $5 would be way too strong.  That's like a super upgrade, basically, plus it has a reaction.  I can't decide whether it's more or less flexible than Upgrade overall, but I think it will still compare too favorably to Upgrade at $5.  On the other hand, exactly $1 more at $6 might be too weak, but Upgrade is a strong $5 and this would probably be a little better than that, so I could see myself getting it reasonably often.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2016, 04:21:02 pm »
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Upgrade at $5 means that, worst-case scenario, you can upgrade Upgrades into Golds.  Exactly +2 at $5 means that it's usually a dead end, which seems substantially weaker.
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eHalcyon

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Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 20)
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2016, 04:37:20 pm »
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Upgrade at $5 means that, worst-case scenario, you can upgrade Upgrades into Golds.  Exactly +2 at $5 means that it's usually a dead end, which seems substantially weaker.

I think with this card you would much prefer to upgrade Estates into $4 action cards and Silvers into $5 action cards, to get the immediate play benefit. 

If we make it exactly $1, then you're going for Estates into $3 actions and Silvers into $4 actions, which typically means weaker actions.  And if we price it to avoid the Fortress issue, then the card will cost $6 and trashing itself will hit $7 just like with the $5-cost "exactly $2" option, so that's no better.  I don't think Upgrading Upgrades is a great comparison anyway, since this isn't a cantrip and isn't even fully non-terminal.
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