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Author Topic: Madman megaturns  (Read 4773 times)

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Limetime

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Madman megaturns
« on: January 30, 2016, 09:25:20 am »
+4

We all know about hermit/market Square, but what we don't know much about is other madman megaturns. How do we build a madman goons megaturn? How do we build a merchant guild megaturn? How do we build a madman horn of plenty megaturn? How do we build a cost reducer megaturn?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 11:03:00 am by Limetime »
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DG

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2016, 10:23:49 am »
+5

Madman-goons does work but it can be pretty tricky since the opponent will usually play goons as well. This can make it difficult to find six coins to buy your goons and also cuts down your opportunities to play madmen. I've also found that there isn't necessarily a clean win on a mega turn - the end game can be more complex.

My advice would be to ensure income for goons and not entirely focus on the madmen. Since the goons are expensive there will be opportunities to buy other kingdom cards for copper trashing, +actions, +cards, +buys, etc, meaning that every kingdom will play differently.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2016, 11:07:26 am »
+2

Titandrake and I played this game in the DS championship:

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151206/log.0.1449431246984.txt

Once I won the Hermit split I was pretty sure I could guarantee the win with a big Goons turn. Haven is a huge help here mitigating some of the issues DG mentioned. Madman being the only village can make the Hermit split very important. Swap one of the duds in the kingdom for a village and suddenly the 5/2 Trading Post open for Titandrake is looking really nice.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 11:14:36 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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singletee

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2016, 01:29:25 pm »
0

Bridge works with some village support. I almost got to do it once. I'm getting seven Provinces on my next turn. Then an opponent quits. I open the chat to find random gibberish and the point leader saying "I won". I can't offer any strategy advice from this game as I was essentially uncontested.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 01:39:09 pm by singletee »
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theblankman

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 03:27:30 pm »
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I've done it with Bridge and Highway but both are tricky and need support.  Horn needs variety so you have to build that while gaining your Madmen... I guess if there's a bunch of desirable cards cheap enough to gain with Hermit it can work, but you also need to buy the Horns, so that's probably harder than the others.  Merchant Guild, I don't think it works as a plain Madman megaturn because you only get to go off once with Madman and MG doesn't let you spend the tokens the turn you get them.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2016, 06:55:23 pm »
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Wandering Winder has a game on his YouTube channel where the opponent goes for some Pawn - Coppersmith - Madman megaturn. It ultimately ended up losing, but the idea seemed interesting and was  competitive on that particular board.
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Dingan

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 02:55:22 pm »
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I think Madman-Coppersmith deserves some love.  It needs some enabling, and +buy, but I think it could happen.  I want to say I've never actually done it, but I almost did it twice (sorry, no logs).
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Deadlock39

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2016, 03:43:25 pm »
+2

Here is the Coppersmith mega turn from WWs Youtube (starring Dingan):


I bookmarked this one a long time ago because when I was watching it I thought I had seen a way for Dingan to actually generate the extra money he needed to win on the mega turn and wanted to check it. (There is a Madman played for no draw, and I think some Storeroom sifting would have enabled more discarding for coins.)

Dingan

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2016, 03:58:21 pm »
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Here is the Coppersmith mega turn from WWs Youtube (starring Dingan):


I bookmarked this one a long time ago because when I was watching it I thought I had seen a way for Dingan to actually generate the extra money he needed to win on the mega turn and wanted to check it. (There is a Madman played for no draw, and I think some Storeroom sifting would have enabled more discarding for coins.)

Oh wow that is so funny.  I actually think I remember that game.  Good find!  No idea if I played it correctly or not, but it was an interesting idea nonetheless.
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Titandrake

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2016, 01:14:08 am »
+2

I played Hermit-Coppersmith a few days ago, with Candlestick Maker as support. Candlestick Maker is pretty much the perfect card for this combo, because you can gain it from Hermit and stockpile the coin tokens when gaining Madmen.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160201/log.0.1454312425745.txt
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Mac-S

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2016, 04:03:26 am »
+3

I performed a Madman-Bridge megaturn in a RL game a few weeks ago. The turn before, I had played Tactician so one Madman was enough to draw most of my deck. I had a couple of Bridges and some Royal Carriages waiting on the reserve mat, more than enough to empty the Province pile. One of the most fun combos I ever pulled off in a game of Dominion.


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thespaceinvader

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2016, 07:39:15 am »
0

Wharf I think can be a pretty solid Madman enabler, because it gets you bigger starting hands, and the buys to make use of your whole deck's worth of treasures and actions.  I'd not tried it all that often, though.
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jomini

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2016, 12:29:14 pm »
+1

Madman megaturns play very, very differently depending on what the payload cards are.

For instance, if your payload is something like Storeroom, then you basically want to get 6 Madmen and 5 Storerooms ASAP. Here the overriding goal is going to be ensure that you win the splits. This requires aggressive Hermit acquisition & rapid Madman gaining. You can leave off one or two of your payload cards until the megaturn itself, provided you have enough actions (thanks to nec or something else). Most of the <= $3 cards play pretty similarly here. These are all but always times to open double Hermit and to gain/buy Hermits on T3/T4. It is pretty hard on these boards to contest Hermits without going for a big Madman turn yourself.

Life is a little dicier with your enabling cards at $4. You will have chances to get these, unless you fill up too soon on Hermits and Madmen. Killing your estates/shelters will delay the clogging, but you want to pay attention to tempo with when to buy a $4 and not gain a Madman. Copper buys are totally worth it here and should be undertaken whenever they do not endanger your odds of hitting the megaturn. If your +buy is terminal this will often setup a scenario where not contesting the Hermits is a loss, but going for the Megaturn is not going to be an auto-win without enough +action. Often it is worth it here to just play Madmen as early game enablers; try to keep one Hermit in deck while depleting that pile to stop a megaturn, but spike some early gold and provinces on a lackluster board.

For >=$5 enablers, you will likely want some Silver. Sure there are exceptions, like Artificer, but hitting $5 or more while adding dead Madmen into the deck means you want silver or better gains from your Hermit a lot more often. Bank and Goons are notoriously tricky, getting to $7 while cursing means you want to be very careful at never having too many Hermits in deck and hitting Goons with low silver & attacks is almost impossible.



In general, I find Madman megaturns are a LOT more viable than people expect. Being able to play lots of cards with 100% odds of lining cards up is pretty powerful, being able to draw & play a bunch of gains is even better. For instance, I love Hermit/Stonemason. You can really easily pile Smason and Estates from just 3 starting Smasons and one more Madman than it takes to draw your initial deck and also score some nice points by turning say a $4 card into two silvers or whacking Golds into double duchies. With a decent setup for gainers, each Madman functionally represents a whole new turn of potential.



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Limetime

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2016, 12:44:12 pm »
0

It seems like stonemason mega turns aren't very viable if the opponent scores enough points (~15~)
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jomini

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Re: Madman megaturns
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2016, 09:04:50 pm »
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It seems like stonemason mega turns aren't very viable if the opponent scores enough points (~15~)

That depends on how you use him. Say you can get golds, like with Taxman. You can spend a single $4 turn to get 3 Smason, use an Smason on the Taxman to get 2 more Smason and then trash 4 golds to pile the duchies and maybe even have enough cash in hand for a province. Another fun option is to do something that gains big cards - like using Quarry to get cheap Hunting grounds (27 VP for trashing 3 cards) or move around your Ferry (put -2 on Altar, buy 4 and then put -2 on anything else) to either go mass Duchy via a $6 or use $5s to hit alt-VP like Silk Roads.

Likewise, if you Mason a Fortresses three times, that is $12 cash. With two turns of $4 overbuy, you can set up to hit somewhere around $30 with only 3 purchases > $4. Other $4 spaming cards, like Iw, can also set you up well to spam gain a bunch of yellow cards & draw them in one go. Being able to just buy junk, even copper is a lot better than having to line up Smason and your $4s naturally ... just so you can aim to hit 3-4 silvers turn when you get lucky.

The real beauty of Smason is that he is a highly tactical play. Going from 0 to 4 Smason in one turn is easy so your opponent has to play the entire game as though you can pile the estates with only one turn of warning. Just setting up the threat forces the other guy to honor it rather often.


If Madman is the only draw on the board, just about any enabler will make it semi-viable.
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