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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $4 cards  (Read 26196 times)

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DStu

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2012, 03:28:36 am »
+2

Complicating things is the fact that you have no guarantee that your Talismans will turn up on a turn where you have enough money to buy what you want to duplicate AND not so much that you wouldn't rather buy a single $5+ card instead.

+1 from me, but this one is even worse here, because replacing the Talisman with a Silver you would have $5 in your hand.  So it's not that you don't have so much money that you would prefer a $5, but it's you only need the Talisman if you really ever prefer 2x$4 (a couple of times) over 1x$5 (and better even over 1x$6, because, as you said, it might happen that you draw Talisman with $5++ in your hand, which would be $6 if the Talisman was a Silver)

edit: And that is already difficult in the Lab vs. Caravan setting. I think in slim decks I would prefer 1 Lab over 2 Caravans, just because half of the Caravans miss the shuffle anyway, which usually can be avoided with the Labs.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 03:30:59 am by DStu »
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kn1tt3r

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2012, 10:55:39 am »
0

I've just made all the lists for myself (I've not voted for this big list), and the $4 and $5 lists are damn tough, mainly because it's just so many cards.

Biggest deviations up to now:
$2: I have Pawn 3 positions higher (at #5)
$3: Oracle is 8 higher (at #13), and Black Market 7 lower (at #22)

I've found it's quite easy to group the cards in tiers/categories (the top3 for the $4 cards were pretty clear), but among them it's nearly impossible to put them into an order without feeling bad about your decision.
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Tables

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2012, 12:15:31 pm »
0

So far, this list seems pretty similar to my own. The only surprises I've seen are Cutpurse not being here, I think I had that as about 3rd bottom... but then, despite owning Seaside, I still find I rarely actually buy Cutpuse. Maybe I'm underrating it too much. But I'm surprised a majority of people put it out of the bottom third.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

Deadlock39

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2012, 12:20:40 pm »
0

In the early game, Cutpurse is frequently as good as Militia, and it is even better if your opponent is holding two Estates.  It can also get crazy with more players.  It does lose some power as the game progresses, but it is still a strong opening attack.

toaster

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2012, 12:41:32 pm »
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Indeed.  Cutpurse plays a very useful role in openings.  In most boards, you really want to get to $5/$6 quickly, as that's where you're going to find the cards that will really power your deck.  Hitting those numbers early is especially important is giving you a leg up on your opponents.  Sending your opponent from $6 to $5, or even moreso from $5 to $4 early can significantly set back an opponent's deck and give you a decent advantage.
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Tables

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2012, 01:21:21 pm »
0

Hm, I guess. Good as an opening, weaker after. Maybe I should try it sometimes.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

Tahtweasel

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2012, 01:59:41 pm »
+3

Think of Spy as an inferior version of Caravan. It strictly improves 95% of decks, by self-replacing with a couple of small extra benefits. I agree that those benefits are inferior to Caravan's benefit (1 card next turn) but not by nearly as much as people seem to think. They go bonkers for Caravan and hate Spy.

There are some games where no card below $5 improves your deck after a certain point. Cards like Spy, Pearl Diver, Great Hall, Caravan, and the villages can rectify that, and modestly improve your deck without hurting anything.

There's a point to these cards - they're just not openers. They're alternatives to Silver.

Cards that Spy helps out with: Conspirator, Scrying Pool, Vineyards, Peddler, Jester, Swindler, Tunnel.
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2012, 06:34:39 am »
0

Just one note... For Bureaucrat, Farming Village does indeed counter it, but Cartographer does not, as he'll draw that Victory card (instead of whatever he would have) when he plays Cartographer.

That's true. I always forget about drawing one card first and then look at the top 5. I'll remove this.

Woodcutter was the third worst $3 card. Here we have a Woodcutter with a on-buy top-deck ability. Is it worth costing $1 more? And how can it be that it ranks higher than Woodcutter?
IMO there are only 2-3 reasons for that. You have a high chance to get a $5 card on turn 2 even with a 4/3 opening which is nice especially for Hunting Party and Cursers. Similar to that it is nice you need the +Buy either way and need multiple cheap cards as fast you can. But the only opening which is strong is IMO Nomad Camp / Fool's Gold / Fool's Gold. The last reason is  if you're really unlucky in the late game and only get $4 and want to maximize the chances to hit $8 in the next turn. Beside of that it's only an expensive Woodcutter.

There's another reason for that: the bad $4 cards are far worse than the bad $3 cards.  Nomad Camp looks better by comparison because there's just so much more competition on the bottom end.


Oh, one last thing:

Thief is without doubt the worst card in the game.

Fixed that for you. :P

Interesting comment about the $3 and $4 cards here. But the $4 cards normally should be better.
My comment about Thief being the worst $4 card is the result of your lists. Your comment is just subjective, even if it's true, another list is needed to prove that.

It's maybe a bit unfortunate that the card rankings are basically assuming 2 player games.

It's true that I haven't specified the number of players for this list, but it was intended. It would make this just more complicated.

Tactician/Coppersmith is the easiest way to abuse Coppersmith, especially if you have Warehouse/Cellar.

I forgot Tactician. I think I'll add this in my article. Thanks for this hint.

I've just made all the lists for myself (I've not voted for this big list), and the $4 and $5 lists are damn tough, mainly because it's just so many cards.

Biggest deviations up to now:
$2: I have Pawn 3 positions higher (at #5)
$3: Oracle is 8 higher (at #13), and Black Market 7 lower (at #22)

I've found it's quite easy to group the cards in tiers/categories (the top3 for the $4 cards were pretty clear), but among them it's nearly impossible to put them into an order without feeling bad about your decision.

Would you mind sending me your list? At least I could use it to get a little bit better result for the difficult $5 list.

@all other comments: The spy discussion was very interesting. And I'm really surprised and glad that you really agree with the bottom part so far. I'm looking forward to hear your comments on the high deviation cards coming in the next part. I'm especially glad that you agree with the high deviation cards (Treasure Map and Pirate Ship) so far. The next part will be posted by tomorrow at the latest.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2012, 09:53:31 am »
+1

Interesting comment about the $3 and $4 cards here. But the $4 cards normally should be better.
My comment about Thief being the worst $4 card is the result of your lists. Your comment is just subjective, even if it's true, another list is needed to prove that.

Your comment may be a result of the lists, but the lists don't make thief-is-the-worst-$4 an objective statement nor a proven one (though, hey, it is correct ;) ).

Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2012, 06:12:58 pm »
0

The Best $4 Cards - Part 2/3
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#30 Ironworks (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 25.92 / Median: 27.5 / Mode: 30 / Standard Deviation: 8.6
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #8 (1x), #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (2x), #39 (2x)

Ironworks is the next card after a big 4.3 point gap. This means it's the worst card of the mediocre ones. The average being 4 points higher than the actual rank shows also that the next cards are very close together and perhaps needed more players sending in lists. Ironworks has some really high outliers, with one being on #4.

Ironworks is the superior Workshop which was pretty low on the $3 list. Does it deserve a higher rating on the $4 list? The biggest bonus for getting a lot of wanted action cards like Caravan is: Ironworks is non-terminal. So you can get Ironworks with Ironworks and then quickly get Caravans or other $4 cards. Being an Intrigue card it also combos nice with dual-type cards, so getting Great Halls or Islands makes Ironworks a cantrip. And it also works better in Gardens or Silk Road games for getting an additional card and increasing the probability getting to $4. But it lacks the same problem as Workshop: How many $4 cards do you want? So many times Ironworks is skippable.
#29 Remodel (Base) Weighted Average: 25.08 / Median: 23 / Mode: 22 / Standard Deviation: 9.1
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #8 (1x), #10 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (1x), #39 (1x), #42 (1x)

Remodel is the card with the highest deviation so far. It was even second once, but also second last. What could be the reason? As a side note Remodel would be #26 in the unweighted ranking, so it seems that unexperienced players overrate it.

Remodel introduced us to the cards that trash for a better card. As a opener it has big problems trashing the Coppers, because you need either good $2 cards on the board you want in masses like Fool's Gold or Lighthouse or you need to remodel in 2 steps (Estate to Silver or another $3-$4 card) which is not really a good idea. But Remodel is good in the later game. Just remodel your money in the respective victory card. It seems some of you take the opener qualities more into account while others did it vice versa, maybe therefore the high variance.
#28 Silk Road (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 24.89 / Median: 22.5 / Mode: 17 / Standard Deviation: 9.9
Highest Rank(s): #7 (2x), #15 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #39 (1x), #41 (1x), #42 (1x)

Silk Road now has the same problem as I mentioned already a lot of times. How do you rank Victory cards? It has the fourth highest deviation of all $4 cards. It has also a very high mode with ranking on #17 6 times.

Silk Road plays similarly to Gardens. You have to rush them, with support of Workshop/Ironworks and/or additional buys for double Estates in the end game. You can pick Gardens up in the late game without rushing them and they are mostly worth 3VP like a Duchy. That's mostly not the case with Silk Road, you need a special strategy for them. But Silk Road is great with a board with dual-type victory cards like Island, Nobles or Harem. I think personal preference has played a big role with that card and I think many still have not much experience with this card what may result in this high variance.
#27 Trader (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 24.29 / Median: 25.5 / Mode: 33 / Standard Deviation: 9.1
Highest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #8 (1x), #11 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #37 (1x), #38 (1x), #42 (1x)

Trader has a significant worse Median than the last two cards and the Mode is much worse too. But the ranks of the better players made the small difference.

Trader is - like all Reaction cards - very situational. It's Silver gaining defense is mostly stronger than Watchtower's trashing, so you have to think twice if you really want to play that Curse-giving attack or another card that deals out junk and give your opponent a free Silver, especially with Mountebank on the board for 2 Silvers. Silver is a good opener in non-Colony Big Money games too, so you can trash Estates for 2 Silvers. It's also good with Gardens, eventually trashing a Silver to 3 Silvers. But in all other boards Trader is simply a no-go. So, it deserves this high deviation.
#26 Cutpurse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 23.79 / Median: 25.5 / Mode: 36 / Standard Deviation: 10.2
Highest Rank(s): #10 (2x), #13 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (2x), #43 (1x)

Cutpurse has the second highest deviation of all $4 cards. And it has a even worse Mode and the same bad Median as Trader. And it is the last card with a last place. If we would take the unweighted average into account, Cutpurse would be only on #30, so unexperienced players seem to underrate it.

Cutpurse is a pretty good opener. It's a terminal Silver that can even hit harder than Militia. In the beginning where every coin is important to get to $5, Cutpurse can be really annoying. And it is even worse in games with more than 2 players where you can lose multiple Coppers in one turn. Yes, later it gets worse and worse and is nothing but a terminal Silver where you can see your opponents hand. So this card is of course very difficult to rank and has therefore the second highest deviation like every card, which is pretty good opener and gets worse afterwards, has a high variation.
#25 Baron (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 23.61 / Median: 23.5 / Mode: 30 / Standard Deviation: 7.7
Highest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #7 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #30 (3x), #32 (1x), #36 (1x)

Baron only has a 0.18 point lead over Cutpurse. Baron is the first card which has no rank in the bottom 5 and has some pretty high ranks too.

Baron is very interesting as it gives you a very high probability getting Gold early, but is very swingy too. If you cannot draw your Baron with an Estate, this is dead card in the beginning, because you mostly don't want another Estate (and getting Estate for feeding your Baron is mostly no good idea). But as the game goes on, the probability decreases drawing an Estate with Baron. In the middle game Baron is most of the time no good card, but later in the game it can you net another point and gives you a +Buy too. If you're going to trash your Estates, don't buy a Baron and if you have a deck that can guarantee an Estate in every hand, like multiple Hunting Parties, Baron can very powerful. So, Baron is very situational and a rank in the middle of the $4 cards seems deserved.
#24 Quarry (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 23.42 / Median: 24 / Mode: 24 / Standard Deviation: 7.5
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #8 (1x), #11 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #33 (2x), #37 (1x)

Quarry has only a 0.19 point lead too. With rank #24 and the same Median and Mode, there is no doubt here. The unweighted average is worse than Baron's. So Quarry might be underrated by newer players.

Quarry is very situational too. For action cards, this is basically a Gold you can pick up in the opening turns. So if you want many action cards and have additional buys too, Quarry is your card to go for, for example with Goons. But in the later game when you picking up victory cards, you wish this weren't only a Copper.
#23 Worker's Village (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 21.23 / Median: 19.5 / Mode: 24 / Standard Deviation: 6.6
Highest Rank(s): #10 (1x), #11 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #29 (2x), #30 (1x), #37 (1x)

With Worker's Village we have a card with low deviation for a middle-ranked card. It was only one time below #30, but has on the other side no one-digit rank. And compared to the cards before, it has a really high Medium.

If you build an action engine, you need villages and strong terminals. But then you realize you have a strong engine producing so much money and have no +Buy. With Worker's Village you don't need an additional card for that - you have it included in your village which is great. It's also great picking up additional Peddlers in masses and with Goons where you need as many buys as you can get. But when you just need a simple village and don't plan to get more than $8 or $11 respectively, other villages for $4 are probably better. So this is the third best village out of four in your $4 list.
#22 Spice Merchant (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 21.14 / Median: 20 / Mode: 14 / Standard Deviation: 8.9
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #10 (1x), #11 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #35 (1x), #37 (1x), #38 (1x)

Spice Merchant has only a 0.09 point lead over Worker's Village, a close call. With a really big outlier on #3 and more bad rankings than Worker's Village, its higher deviation is no surprise. Spice Merchant would be #23 in the unweighted ranking.

Spice Merchant is a very flexible trasher and the comparism to Moneylender is obvious. It produces less money for the cost of an additional buy. It can really shine if you want a non-terminal trasher (its option +2 cards, +1 action basically restores the hand size) and if there's no other +Buy and you really need one. It's therefore more flexible (not limited to Copper and two options to choose from) but a slower opener as it's harder to get to $5 early on. It may be still useful later on, but it can lead to very hard decisions if you really want to trash that Silver.
#21 Farming Village (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 20.81 / Median: 20 / Mode: 20 / Standard Deviation: 7.0
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #10 (1x), #11 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #30 (1x), #31 (1x), #34 (1x)

Farming Village's stats are similar to the Worker's Village ones. With a big outlier on #5 it has a slightly higher deviation. It has a slightly worse Median and a better Mode. It would be on #19 taking the unweighted average into account, so it seems overrated by newer players.

Farming Village is the second best $4 Village. The additional ability of this village is always useful and a good counter in cursing games and against top-decking attacks like Rabble. And later in the game where you are heavily greening its additional ability is very useful too. You may even pick it up if you don't necessarily need the actions and just want to have its filter ability.
#20 Island (Seaside) Weighted Average: 20.24 / Median: 21 / Mode: 21 / Standard Deviation: 8.5
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #5 (1x), #10 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #31 (1x), #34 (1x), #35 (1x)

Island has two really high outliers, one even being second. Both the Median and the Mode are lower than Farming Village.

Island does pseudo-trashing with the addition of giving additional points. So you can use it for pseudo-trashing the Estates without losing the points and later in the game you can pick it up and take your Provinces out of your deck. It can really be great with Silk Road on the board. It is rarely a game-changer, but can be a nice addition to some decks to keep them clean. And even in cursing games with no trashers, you can take Curses out of your deck for a total net of +1 point.
#19 Mining Village (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 20.11 / Median: 20 / Mode: 26 / Standard Deviation: 7.0
Highest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #7 (1x), #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #28 (3x), #33 (1x), #34 (1x)

Another close call for Mining Village: Only 0.13 point-lead over Island. Comparing this Village with the stats of the last ones, it has clearly higher ranks with 3 times in the Top 10 and similar ranks in the lower regions. It also has the same deviation range as the other Villages.

Mining Village is a normal Village with a one-shot Silver possibility. If you need a Village you can use that one-shot self-trashing option later in the game when you give up your engine and fully commit on going green or have bad luck late in the game and only hit $6 or $7. And even if you doesn't have a engine and are going basically big money, you can buy this in the mid-game when you miss $6 for a Gold and don't want another Silver in your deck, because this still gives you the additional card and the $2 of a Silver. And if you have enough money and no additional buy you can save the one-shot Silver for later.
#18 Throne Room (Base) Weighted Average: 18.72 / Median: 15.5 / Mode: 27 / Standard Deviation: 9.1
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #6 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #32 (1x), #35 (1x), #36 (1x)

A tiny jump to the next two interesting cards. Throne Room has a clearly higher Median with a higher deviation. The high Median shows, that when it got a low ranking, it got a really low ranking.

I was curious how Throne Room was going to perform as Throne Room for itself basically does nothing and is highly dependant on the other cards on the board. It can be so strong, especially with strong attacks and with card drawers too. But nothing is more depressing than drawing Throne Room with no other action card. So you need a high action density and hope to draw it with that card you really want to double. You can also use it as a pseudo-village if there's no-one available and really need one, if you double a cantrip. Throne Room can really be a game-changer, especially if you have the luck and draw it with the right cards.
#17 Conspirator (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 18.34 / Median: 18.5 / Mode: 24 / Standard Deviation: 7.6
Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #5 (1x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (1x), #27 (1x), #33 (1x)

Here's the first card that got first and least once. Its Median is clearly worse than Throne Room's Median, but nearer to its actual ranking.

Conspirator is so strong, but heavily depends on supporting cards that have to be non-terminal. Duration cards also help to activate Conspirator, but cheap action cards like Wishing Well, Pearl Diver or Hamlet that you can pick up in masses, especially with additional buys are great with Conspirator. You want thin decks with high action density. With that big support, this is a Grand Market just without the additional buy. In all other cases, you have to skip over Conspirator, because it's just a terminal Silver then.

To the third part
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 08:17:51 am by Qvist »
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kn1tt3r

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2012, 06:20:24 pm »
0

Wow. Silk Road at 28 seems absolutely ridiculous to me. This is WAY too low.

And Remodel... how can anyone rate it at #2 or #42...? It's so clearly a mediocre $4 card - not super great, but by no means super bad.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 06:25:51 pm by kn1tt3r »
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Glooble

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2012, 06:48:05 pm »
0

I can't remember my rankings at all (should have written them down) but I'm willing to bet I was one of the ones who put Conspirator in the top 10. It's one of those cards that requires a very specific set-up, but when it shines it really shines. I can see why people would rate it lower, though - so many boards its a dead card, without sufficient cantrips and villages to enable it, or it gets you crazy money but no +buy.

I'd have put Spice Merchant higher. Use it as a lab and it replaces both itself and the copper it trashed, so its essentially trashing a copper without hurting your buying power this turn, much like a loan. Unlike a loan, it doesn't risk skipping your other opening purchase or become a liability later on. In the endgame it often worth it to sacrifice a silver you'll never see again anyway for a much-needed extra buy. It's no power card, but I'd rank it above 22.
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Elyv

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2012, 07:12:50 pm »
0

Silk Road seems way too low. Also as a quick note, in my experience you don't have to rush them if there's another green kingdom card.

Edit: Silk Road is at 28 and Gardens is at least 16? Seems hard to believe that's the right ranking to me.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 07:20:04 pm by Elyv »
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PerdHapley

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2012, 07:26:15 pm »
0

A small quibble on the Conspirator paragraph - duration cards played the previous turn actually don't help activate it. Really interesting lists so far, wish I had voted. Thanks so much for putting this together!

EDIT: Also, I have to agree with Elyv about Silk Road/Gardens. I think they're pretty much equally powerful given the right kingdom. I have no idea where on this list I would place them. They're hard to compare to good $4 actions, they're generally useless in Colony games, and in many games they can be dangerous trap cards. Somewhere around 20, maybe?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 07:39:00 pm by PerdHapley »
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Glooble

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2012, 10:26:04 pm »
0

A small quibble on the Conspirator paragraph - duration cards played the previous turn actually don't help activate it.

Not directly.  But a Fishing village is certainly helpful if you draw three conspirators with no + action card. And the card draw from Wharf, Caravan or Tactician helps you draw Conspirators with their enablers. The virtual money from Conspirator chains makes double Tactician an enticing strategy. And Haven is hugely helpful in setting up a conspirator turn.  So I would say pretty much every duration card combos well with Conspirators, even if durations played the previous turn don't actually help you activate the chain. I think that's what the OP was getting at.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2012, 10:48:53 pm »
+1

I have found that the true strength of Trader is using it in a Silver flood strategy on slower boards.  In this way it is similar to Apprentice or Salvager: if you are using it on Coppers you are doing it all wrong.  Next time, try using it on the highest value card it appears with and you'll see what I mean.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

timchen

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2012, 11:02:38 pm »
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I find the comparison between villages interesting. My personal rating would be

Mining>Worker's>Farming>Walled

In my experience the first two have definite uses in various setups. I haven't found a consistent use for the Farming Village but its ability even triggered only randomly seems to justify its cost. Then, I have way too many bad memories that when I played my 2 Walled Village in hand, I just draw a third one.

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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2012, 02:45:27 am »
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I find the comparison between villages interesting. My personal rating would be

Mining>Worker's>Farming>Walled
I agree. Farming Village is way overrated in this list, imo. Worker's is just so much more useful offering a +buy, which is a crucial part of any engine which utilizes villages.

I also think conspirator and throne room are both way too high. I get that conspirator can sometimes be a really key card, but the frequency of this is really not that great. And throne room is even worse.

I am one of the people who put cutpurse at 10. I think I generally have attacks and cards that are good with more than 2 players higher than most people. I do feel like it should be much higher than it is because it can lock people out from 5s, which can be really devastating.

The other real shock for me is that horse traders made it into the top third. Really? A reaction card that's basically only good against handsize reduction (and is basically otherwise just a woodcutter)? Everyone hated on the reactions for the $2 cards, and somehow horse traders is a good $4? Seems really inconsistent...
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olneyce

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2012, 03:36:42 am »
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Baron at 25 seems VERY low.  Baron is a great card.  I probably overrated it in my list, but it's a very powerful opener that has some very solid mid and late game potential.

Count me as another person perplexed by Farming Village finishing where it did.  It's clearly the next-weakest village after Walled.  And I will almost always prefer Worker's Village over Mining, too.

I don't really get the love for Island.  It's a fine card, but it's pretty slow at clearing out your deck.  And it's not worth that much.

I'm enjoying this project quite a bit, in part because it's making me me go back and look at my own lists, and wonder why in the world I made some of the rankings that I did.   There are some where I continue to believe the crowd got it wrong, but there are plenty where I think I probably was wrong, too.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2012, 03:58:50 am »
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Baron at 25 seems VERY low.  Baron is a great card.  I probably overrated it in my list, but it's a very powerful opener that has some very solid mid and late game potential.
I had Baron that low (though it probably should be a bit higher -- like low 20s). I don't think it's a generally good opener. It's got a good chance of hitting the first time and getting you a gold or forge, but then it can get progressively less likely to hit, turning it into kind of dead weight. It's a good opener when there is something like lab to keep hand size big enough to keep hitting, or if you suspect the game will be really short (i.e. 4-player), or if you really need the +buy early. Otherwise there are a lot of better openers.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2012, 07:17:21 am »
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But nothing is more depressing than drawing Throne Room with no other action card.

Having multiple dead King's Courts in one hand. So... much... potential energy. All fizzling out to nothing. Aaargh!

Anyway, thanks for doing these lists, I'm really enjoying them.
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Tables

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2012, 12:52:12 pm »
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This list is very interesting while looking at mine. I'd say I've overrated a lot of cards, but it's more accurate to say I underrated a good number. In particular, Horse Traders, Monument, Smithy and Envoy, which seem to be shoving everything else up a good 2-4 places. I was also baffled that I placed Mining Village at #10... I know why I did it (because total accuracy is hard, and I kinda just scanned down and found Bridge and probably went 'Mining Village or Bridge... eh, Bridge is often a trap so they're certainly about the same. Above Bridge' and that was it) but still... it's definitely a good 5-10 places too high.

As for Silk Road being where it was while Gardens is so much higher... WHY? Gardens is generally better, but by that much of an edge? I doubt it.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2012, 01:18:19 pm »
+1

This list is very interesting while looking at mine. I'd say I've overrated a lot of cards, but it's more accurate to say I underrated a good number. In particular, Horse Traders, Monument, Smithy and Envoy, which seem to be shoving everything else up a good 2-4 places. I was also baffled that I placed Mining Village at #10... I know why I did it (because total accuracy is hard, and I kinda just scanned down and found Bridge and probably went 'Mining Village or Bridge... eh, Bridge is often a trap so they're certainly about the same. Above Bridge' and that was it) but still... it's definitely a good 5-10 places too high.

As for Silk Road being where it was while Gardens is so much higher... WHY? Gardens is generally better, but by that much of an edge? I doubt it.
Silk Road is generally better than Gardens...

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2012, 01:31:13 pm »
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As for Silk Road being where it was while Gardens is so much higher... WHY? Gardens is generally better, but by that much of an edge? I doubt it.
Silk Road is generally better than Gardens...

Perhaps. Personally I have them right next to each other, and I doubt that'd change, but I'd have thought Gardens, being able to be powered by cards which can help gain more Gardens (treasure & actions) would make up for the fact that Silk Roads require less ammo to use, when that ammo for the most part will cost $4 or more too (there's Estates, Great Hall, Tunnel... any other's at $3 or less?) And building a deck with that many victory cards is going to require a good number of actions and treasures too, as hitting $4 or more consistently isn't too easy.

Of course, you're far more experienced than me and this isn't exactly a rigorous reason. But I'd like to know why you say that - I'd have thought Gardens is better on most boards.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

brokoli

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2012, 06:33:11 am »
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This list is very interesting while looking at mine. I'd say I've overrated a lot of cards, but it's more accurate to say I underrated a good number. In particular, Horse Traders, Monument, Smithy and Envoy, which seem to be shoving everything else up a good 2-4 places. I was also baffled that I placed Mining Village at #10... I know why I did it (because total accuracy is hard, and I kinda just scanned down and found Bridge and probably went 'Mining Village or Bridge... eh, Bridge is often a trap so they're certainly about the same. Above Bridge' and that was it) but still... it's definitely a good 5-10 places too high.

As for Silk Road being where it was while Gardens is so much higher... WHY? Gardens is generally better, but by that much of an edge? I doubt it.
Silk Road is generally better than Gardens...

+1. Silk road is way way too low (and Throne room too high).

Quote from: olneyce
I don't really get the love for Island.  It's a fine card, but it's pretty slow at clearing out your deck.  And it's not worth that much.

Disagree. Island isn't so slow. Island is one of the best openers, I think. I play Island very well and I win often with it (mainly when I buy more than 3 !). In a 4/4 province split, Island make the difference. Second best 4$ card for me.

Baron at 25 seems VERY low.  Baron is a great card.  I probably overrated it in my list, but it's a very powerful opener that has some very solid mid and late game potential.
I had Baron that low (though it probably should be a bit higher -- like low 20s). I don't think it's a generally good opener. It's got a good chance of hitting the first time and getting you a gold or forge, but then it can get progressively less likely to hit, turning it into kind of dead weight. It's a good opener when there is something like lab to keep hand size big enough to keep hitting, or if you suspect the game will be really short (i.e. 4-player), or if you really need the +buy early. Otherwise there are a lot of better openers.

Baron is an excellent opener, and one of the best combo engine I think. Just played a game when I won 84-49. I took laboratories, Throne room, cartographers and menageries. It was a good draw engine, and baron made the difference. I succeed to buy three colonies in one turn, because I played three barons and discarded my estates. In a good draw engine baron is amazing. And there are many way to have a good draw engine.

About villages, I think Worker's village and Farming village are both good. Worker's village is probably the best source of +buy. Farming village is unique, and an excellent defense against top-deck attacks, and really good in cursing games.
I like mining village but it's less useful, IMO.
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