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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $4 cards  (Read 26197 times)

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Qvist

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The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $4 cards
« on: January 11, 2012, 12:27:52 pm »
+3

Here comes the first part of the $4 list. I look forward to hear your complains ;)
I think this list will be the most discussed one, even more than the $5 list.
There seemed to be very difficult decisions, especially in the middle ranks you will see in the next part.

The Best $4 Cards - Part 1/3
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#43 Thief (Base) Weighted Average: 41.22 / Median: 42 / Mode: 43 / Standard Deviation: 2.4
Highest Rank(s): #34 (1x), #35 (1x), #38 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (13x)

Thief is without doubt the worst $4 card in the game. The next card has a healthy margin and Thief has by far the lowest deviation of all $4 cards. Nearly the half of all players ranked it last.

An attack on the last position may seem strange, but Thief has the big problem helping your opponent in the early game. Its a free trasher for your opponent and even later it's so risky hitting the Coppers of your opponent. Its only use may be in thin Chapel decks or if you manage to play it multiple times per turn. And it gets better in 3- or 4-player games, where you can minimize the risk of getting nothing and hitting Coppers. It can be a nice counter against a Ill-Gotten-Gains rush dealing out curses with it, but it is still swingy and therefore still a bad card. You don't want it early and in the later game it's almost never worth a buy.
#42 Scout (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 39.12 / Median: 38.5 / Mode: 37 / Standard Deviation: 5.3
Highest Rank(s): #21 (1x), #28 (1x), #29 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (4x)

Although it has a higher median than the next card and a pretty high mode (it got #37 6 times), it still only is second last. Only four cards have a lower deviation, so the consensus is still high and it even got last 4 times and #42 6 times too.

Scout has its uses. You don't need to spend an action, but it isn't a cantrip, so it really can hurt your deck. If you're massively greening this can be nice as it makes your next turn better, but is still not good. The best uses are: making Crossroads way better, it has a nice synergy with Wishing Well (making it a cheap Lab) and of course it's great with dual-type-victory cards like Harem, Great Hall and Nobles, making Scout a Lab or even better. There might be more edge cases when Scout shines, but those cases are rare and most of the times you can win without buying a Scout.
#41 Coppersmith (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 38.27 / Median: 39 / Mode: 41 / Standard Deviation: 6.2
Highest Rank(s): #16 (1x), #22 (1x), #26 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (11x), #43 (2x)

Coppersmith is the third last card with a third of all players ranking it there. It has a below average deviation, but it's really high for such a low ranked card, because it has a few outliers in way higher rank regions.

Yes, Coppersmith is very hard to rank, because it's either clearly the worst card on the board or it's very dominating. As a opener you may get to $6 or even $8, but you also can draw only one Copper, so it's very swingy as a opener and gets worse later. On the other hand King's Court + Coppersmith can become brutal and it has some nice synergy with Apothecary and Counting House. The cases where it shines may occur more rarely than with any other card, but then it's a must-buy.
#40 Talisman (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 37.84 / Median: 38.5 / Mode: 40 / Standard Deviation: 4.2
Highest Rank(s): #28 (1x), #29 (1x), #30 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (4x)

Talisman is the card with the third least deviation, so no surprise here. No-one ranked it last, but 4 people ranked it second last and 5 people ranked it exactly on #40.

There are very few cards for $4, you want in masses. Silk Road and Gardens may be a exception, but Talisman doesn't work with victory cards. So there are even less cards you want for free with Talisman. Caravan and in some cases Throne Room, Conspirator and Tournament came to my mind being the only cards which makes Talisman a good buy, especially as a opener. You can build a Village + Smithy/Envoy quicker too, but this is rarely worth a Talisman buy since you need money too. But it shines especially with cost reducers like Quarry, Bridge and especially Highway. Play Highway, play Talisman, buy Highway, get one for free, that's nice. Talisman is also nice for a quick 3-pile ending. This works well with Bishop for example: get many Talismans and then Bishops, trash Talismans for 3VP and try to three-pile. But Talisman also can hurt very badly since the free extra card is not optional, so only buy Talisman if you really want cheap card in masses. And don't forget: if you're buying more expensive cards you've spent $4 for a Copper.
#39 Bureaucrat (Base) Weighted Average: 35.75 / Median: 37 / Mode: 39 / Standard Deviation: 5.3
Highest Rank(s): #22 (1x), #26 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (4x), #43 (1x)

We make the next big jump and can observe a close battle for not getting into the Bottom 5. Bureaucrat loses, maybe it got bad rankings more often with one last place, so that its high ranks couldn't save it.

The attack of Bureaucrat is weak. Your opponent loses one card that he don't need anyway for him getting another 4 card hand in the next turn. And he might even be able to counter that easily by playing Farming Village of Cartographer for example. The attack gets better in multiplayer games, especially if there are dual-type victory cards like Nobles or Harem on the board. The benefit on the other side still isn't good either. Top-decked silvers are nice, especially in the beginning and you can get to $8 with 4 silvers too, but it's not easy. So it seems Bureaucrat is nice where you don't want to get to $8, like in Duke / Gardens / Silk Road games, but then Bureacrat is a good counter too. And you can play your Bureaucrat less frequently if your deck is already flooded with silvers. Bureacrat + Big Money is not bad on the other side as it doesn't seem to have synergies well with other cards.
#38 Noble Brigand (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 35.71 / Median: 36.5 / Mode: 41 / Standard Deviation: 5.6
Highest Rank(s): #24 (1x), #25 (1x), #26 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (5x), #42 (2x)

Noble Brigand wins against Bureaucrat with a 0.04 point lead. It didn't got any last place, but got third last 5 times in exchange. So the order of these two isn't fixed.

Noble Brigand is the better Thief on many boards. It hasn't the disadvantage of trashing the opponents Coppers, making it a better opener. It even attacks on-buy. It deals out Coppers too which is nice playing against no-treasure decks. And it gives $1 too, so you have at least an immediate benefit. But it's worse in Colony games as it cannot steal Platinum, it cannot steal Ill-Gotten-Gains like Thief and cannot steal other Kingdom treasure cards. And most important: it's still too slow and doesn't hurt enough if you can't play one nearly each turn.
#37 Navigator (Seaside) Weighted Average: 34.56 / Median: 35 / Mode: 32 / Standard Deviation: 5.7
Highest Rank(s): #21 (1x), #22 (1x), #29 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (4x)

Navigator is the card with the second most last places shared with Scout. But Navigator is the first card with a way higher mode with 7 times #32. It also has a worse unweighted average than Noble Brigand, so better players seem to rank Navigator higher than Newbies.

Scout is at least non-terminal and therefore nice for Wishing Well to draw the top-decked cards. Top-decking the next 5 cards in a specific order is only nice if you have still an action left to draw a few of them. Because if you don't do that, you draw all 5 cards no matter in what order you put them back. The discarding option is nice to minimize shuffle luck and to get a half Chancellor effect, but still it is terminal and most of the time there are better terminal cards on the board. At least it gives you $2. The best use still may be to enable Tunnel's reaction.
#36 Nomad Camp (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 33.92 / Median: 33.5 / Mode: 32 / Standard Deviation: 5.3
Highest Rank(s): #21 (1x), #25 (1x), #27 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (2x), #43 (2x)

Nomad Camp has two last places too with 4 last places still to come. It has a pretty low deviation, the fifth least like Scout. With only 4 times #32, the mode has not much significance here.

Woodcutter was the third worst $3 card. Here we have a Woodcutter with a on-buy top-deck ability. Is it worth costing $1 more? And how can it be that it ranks higher than Woodcutter?
IMO there are only 2-3 reasons for that. You have a high chance to get a $5 card on turn 2 even with a 4/3 opening which is nice especially for Hunting Party and Cursers. Similar to that it is nice you need the +Buy either way and need multiple cheap cards as fast you can. But the only opening which is strong is IMO Nomad Camp / Fool's Gold / Fool's Gold. The last reason is  if you're really unlucky in the late game and only get $4 and want to maximize the chances to hit $8 in the next turn. Beside of that it's only an expensive Woodcutter.
#35 Walled Village (Promo) Weighted Average: 32.86 / Median: 32.5 / Mode: 30 / Standard Deviation: 4.7
Highest Rank(s): #27 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #40 (2x), #42 (2x)

Walled Village is the next promo in the list. Its low deviation (fourth least) shows the consensus in its rank. As we get nearer to the middle ranks, the mode gets less significance, it was #30 4 times.

It is the worst of the four $4 villages. Why? Its only ability is top deck it if you weren't able to use both actions. So this is nice if you have only 2-3 terminal actions and really want to play them each time without taking the risk of colliding. The only reason opening with Walled Village could be if there's a $3 key card and you want a second one later too. Because of that Walled Village / Masquerade and Walled Village / Ambassador are Level 4 openings rankings on #91 and #114 on Councilroom respectively. In all other cases it is the same as the normal village.
#34 Pirate Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 32.71 / Median: 33 / Mode: 33 / Standard Deviation: 8.6
Highest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #9 (1x), #19 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #40 (4x), #41 (1x), #43 (1x)

Pirate Ship is only 0.15 points higher than Walled Village and has a clearly higher deviation than all cards before, but is still only 14th in the deviation ranking (that shows the big discussion I expect in the next part). It got last once (with three more to come) and is the first card that even got in the Top 10 twice.

There's the third attack that trashes treasures (tongue twister). Pirate Ship is the best one, but still not good. Or is it? The high ranks may result from players mainly playing 3- or 4-player games where Pirate Ships can be devastating. In 2-player games it's too slow most of the times. The advantage over Thief and Noble Brigand is getting virtual money and therefore not clogging your deck so you can play Pirate Ship more often and get the coins more often. So, with Pirate Ship you really want to buy as many as you can, so you can play them multiple times, and with Throne Room or King's Court this card is really great.
#33 Spy (Base) Weighted Average: 32.17 / Median: 32 / Mode: 31 / Standard Deviation: 6.7
Highest Rank(s): #17 (1x), #18 (1x), #23 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (1x), #43 (2x)

Spy got on the last place twice, so there's only one more last place left. It has two outliers in the Top 20. It's unweighted average is lower than Pirate Ship, so higher ranked players seem
to rank Spy higher than Pirate Ship.

An attack that is a cantrip, that seems nice at the first look. But Spy is an attack with a pretty bad attack and little benefit. It's very swingy as you can discard your victory card (or even your Tunnel) and discard the only Witch of your opponent, but you can hit a victory card of your opponent too that you put back. That's no change for your opponent and he even may use that additional info for the next turn. You can add a Spy in your drawing engine if you have a buy and money left, but is really rarely worth a buy. It may have ranked that high, because it's a cantrip and at least don't hurt (or hurts less than a few other cards already mentioned above may hurt). If we already cards with different costs (Warehouse and Cellar), the way better Cartographer comes into my mind.
#32 Treasure Map (Seaside) Weighted Average: 31.57 / Median: 31.5 / Mode: 31 / Standard Deviation: 8.8
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #9 (1x), #14 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #39 (3x), #40 (1x), #42 (1x)

Treasure Map's stats seem similar to the Pirate Ship ones. Two outliers in the Top 10 too, similar high deviation, but no last place this time, only a second last place this time.

I can already here the outcry of a card that ranks that high and is so luck-dependant. Its power is undeniable thou. An early enabling can already decide a game. But you can hardly call it strategy going for Treasure Map. You really need enablers for that, like Warehouse, Chapel, Tactician or the Watchtower/Talisman combo. If you go for Treasure Map without such enablers, you totally rely on your luck. And losing against a totally luck-based enabling can really be frustrating.
#31 Feast (Base) Weighted Average: 30.25 / Median: 31.5 / Mode: 36 / Standard Deviation: 8.2
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #12 (1x), #18 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #38 (1x), #40 (1x), #41 (1x)

Feast is the last card before a big gap. So its the best card of the bad third of the $4 cards. It has two outliers again with one in the Top 10 and very low mode.

Feast basically does nothing but being a one-shot balancing bad shuffle luck, especially at the start. If you really want a specific $5 card and have a 4/3 opening you can open with Feast and can be sure to get that $5 card soon. It also can be used with Throne Room and King's Court to gain multiple $5 cards.

To the second part
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 08:17:05 am by Qvist »
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 01:02:42 pm »
0

There are some really weird outliers here.  Someone ranked Feast and Treasure Map at #7?  And Pirate Ship at #6??!?  Seriously, #6 for a card that is a mortal lock for Bottom 5 status in 2p and still not any good with 3+ most of the time??

The even weirder thing is that despite all the weird outliers this is a freakishly solid "worst third" in aggregate if not necessarily in the specifics: Spy was the only card in this list that I didn't have ranked #31 or lower... and I had it #30.  And if I was making this list again I'd probably have Spy at #31 instead, since I'm pretty sure I underestimated Baron by a few slots.

The specifics, however, leave a little bit to be desired, mainly in the predictable overrating of Pirate Ship, Treasure Map, and Noble Brigand.  Yes, Noble Brigand was all the way down at #38 and I still think it was horribly overrated by y'all.  (I had the Brigand at #41 and the Ship at #40; excepting Thief, where I had lots of company, those were the only times my ranking was near the highest or lowest.)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 04:23:39 pm by chwhite »
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GendoIkari

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 01:03:51 pm »
+1

Just one note... For Bureaucrat, Farming Village does indeed counter it, but Cartographer does not, as he'll draw that Victory card (instead of whatever he would have) when he plays Cartographer.
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 01:07:39 pm »
0

FWIW I really struggled with the middle third of the #4 cards and I would be disappointed if there *wasn't* a massive range for some of them.  Heck, I struggled with the top third too, after a fairly obvious top 4 the next ten or so were all very hard to tease apart, though there was definitely a break between them and the mid-level cards.

Also:

Woodcutter was the third worst $3 card. Here we have a Woodcutter with a on-buy top-deck ability. Is it worth costing $1 more? And how can it be that it ranks higher than Woodcutter?
IMO there are only 2-3 reasons for that. You have a high chance to get a $5 card on turn 2 even with a 4/3 opening which is nice especially for Hunting Party and Cursers. Similar to that it is nice you need the +Buy either way and need multiple cheap cards as fast you can. But the only opening which is strong is IMO Nomad Camp / Fool's Gold / Fool's Gold. The last reason is  if you're really unlucky in the late game and only get $4 and want to maximize the chances to hit $8 in the next turn. Beside of that it's only an expensive Woodcutter.

There's another reason for that: the bad $4 cards are far worse than the bad $3 cards.  Nomad Camp looks better by comparison because there's just so much more competition on the bottom end.


Oh, one last thing:

Thief is without doubt the worst card in the game.

Fixed that for you. :P

« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 01:12:45 pm by chwhite »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 01:15:35 pm »
+1

FWIW I really struggled with the middle third of the #4 cards and I would be disappointed if there *wasn't* a massive range for some of them.  Heck, I struggled with the top third too, after a fairly obvious top 4 the next ten or so were all very hard to tease apart, though there was definitely a break between them and the mid-level cards.

Also:

Woodcutter was the third worst $3 card. Here we have a Woodcutter with a on-buy top-deck ability. Is it worth costing $1 more? And how can it be that it ranks higher than Woodcutter?
IMO there are only 2-3 reasons for that. You have a high chance to get a $5 card on turn 2 even with a 4/3 opening which is nice especially for Hunting Party and Cursers. Similar to that it is nice you need the +Buy either way and need multiple cheap cards as fast you can. But the only opening which is strong is IMO Nomad Camp / Fool's Gold / Fool's Gold. The last reason is  if you're really unlucky in the late game and only get $4 and want to maximize the chances to hit $8 in the next turn. Beside of that it's only an expensive Woodcutter.

There's another reason for that: the bad $4 cards are far worse than the bad $3 cards.  Nomad Camp looks better by comparison because there's just so much more competition on the bottom end.


Oh, one last thing:

Thief is without doubt not the worst card in the game (though in 2P it's close).

Fixed that for you. :P


Fixed that for you.
Come on, transmute!

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2012, 01:17:24 pm »
0

You know, for the most part, these all belong down here. Pirate ship is far too high, Bureaucrat is too low, but the accuracy of the 4s so far seems closer to me to that of the 2 than of the 3s.

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2012, 01:22:17 pm »
0

Fixed that for you.
Come on, transmute!

Transmute's one of the worst, sure, but unlike Thief I will willingly buy it and get value out of it a non-zero amount of the time.  If it's a Familiar game and there's no other trashing, Transmute can be a lifesaver.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2012, 01:26:47 pm »
+2

It's maybe a bit unfortunate that the card rankings are basically assuming 2 player games.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 01:28:18 pm »
0

You clearly underestimate thief. And that's really hard to do.
It's nice in trashing games where you have to go money. Heck, it beats big money, so on a board with a bunch of junk...
It's also nice in games with particular treasures you need to get a lead on (yeah, I'm looking at fool's gold here), and probably most importantly, in games with alternate VP cards, where you're really slogged down in a muck of green by the end.

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2012, 01:33:57 pm »
0

You clearly underestimate thief. And that's really hard to do.
It's nice in trashing games where you have to go money. Heck, it beats big money, so on a board with a bunch of junk...
It's also nice in games with particular treasures you need to get a lead on (yeah, I'm looking at fool's gold here), and probably most importantly, in games with alternate VP cards, where you're really slogged down in a muck of green by the end.

I would think that in the last scenario, Thief will be more likely to help your opponent than hurt, just by discarding 2 green cards from the top of his deck.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2012, 01:36:57 pm »
+1

You clearly underestimate thief. And that's really hard to do.
It's nice in trashing games where you have to go money. Heck, it beats big money, so on a board with a bunch of junk...
It's also nice in games with particular treasures you need to get a lead on (yeah, I'm looking at fool's gold here), and probably most importantly, in games with alternate VP cards, where you're really slogged down in a muck of green by the end.

I would think that in the last scenario, Thief will be more likely to help your opponent than hurt, just by discarding 2 green cards from the top of his deck.
...huh? I mean, sure that CAN happen, but it's only likely if they have so much green they're totally paralyzed anyway....

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2012, 01:37:10 pm »
+1

I would have liked to see Navigator and Spy a little higher up.  I underestimated Navigator for a long time, and while it certainly belongs in the bottom third it can be the difference between winning and losing on slower boards or situations where it is key to dig out that one powerful card that will wreck your opponent or set up a big combo.

Spy fits in most deck types exempting big money terminal draw decks.  Primarily it is a $4 consolation prize in non-terminal engine decks that do not want more than a couple of Silver.  I would not dismiss the cycling or attack portion as too weak.  Consider, in a Sea Hag fight the person who splits 6/4 has a nice advantage, but to really sink the other guy you have to get lucky and force him to discard his most powerful card on turn 3-4.  A network of Spies, gained without a large opportunity loss, is a force that has to be reckoned with in the long game.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 01:40:01 pm by Mean Mr Mustard »
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 01:41:53 pm »
0

My rankings were pretty close for the most part.  My two ranks on the low end were Scout (which I put in last) and Noble Brigand, hardly major outliers.  Scout vs. Thief was a toss-up for last, but I went with Scout because I feel it's a much bigger trap card...I see people go for Scout far more often than Thief, even though it's usually a mistake.

On the high side I had spy...23 is almost certainly a bit too high, but I think that card definitely has it's uses...it's a cantrip that improves the consistency of cantrip decks, especially when trashing options are on the weak side.

As a whole, there were only 3 disagreement between my bottom third and this bottom third.  Spy was the only card I put significantly out of that range.  On the flip side, two cards I buried were Throne Room and Quarry.  Quarry because it's too situational...with two copies and +buy it can be amazing, but too often one would be better off with just a silver.  Throne Room probably shouldn't be as low as I put it, but I do think it's not nearly as powerful as it seems at a glance.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 01:42:38 pm »
0

You clearly underestimate thief. And that's really hard to do.
It's nice in trashing games where you have to go money. Heck, it beats big money, so on a board with a bunch of junk...
It's also nice in games with particular treasures you need to get a lead on (yeah, I'm looking at fool's gold here), and probably most importantly, in games with alternate VP cards, where you're really slogged down in a muck of green by the end.

I would think that in the last scenario, Thief will be more likely to help your opponent than hurt, just by discarding 2 green cards from the top of his deck.
...huh? I mean, sure that CAN happen, but it's only likely if they have so much green they're totally paralyzed anyway....

I guess when I read "alternate VP cards" I immediately thought of either Duke or Silk Roads, in which case I'd think it's not too uncommon for the top 2 cards to be victory. But I also suppose that hitting a silver would be much more devastating in those games.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2012, 01:50:08 pm »
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You clearly underestimate thief. And that's really hard to do.
It's nice in trashing games where you have to go money. Heck, it beats big money, so on a board with a bunch of junk...
It's also nice in games with particular treasures you need to get a lead on (yeah, I'm looking at fool's gold here), and probably most importantly, in games with alternate VP cards, where you're really slogged down in a muck of green by the end.

I guess I could imagine Thief being worth a buy in a setup with Chapel and Fool's Gold, okay.  But I'm not convinced about the rest.  I mean, sure, it can put the hurt on a Chapel Big Money deck... but Chapel Big Money isn't actually much of an improvement over straight BM; it's not like Thief is countering what would otherwise be an unstoppable strategy.  Rather the presence of Thief would at best discourage me from doing something that's unnecessary to begin with.  I'll grant Fool's Gold and possibly Venture as exceptions.

It's maybe a bit unfortunate that the card rankings are basically assuming 2 player games.

I think Pirate Ship is the only card where it really makes much of a difference.  And even if we assumed people play multiplayer far more often then they actually do, it'd still rank in the bottom third IMO.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 10:32:28 pm by chwhite »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2012, 02:02:31 pm »
0

You clearly underestimate thief. And that's really hard to do.
It's nice in trashing games where you have to go money. Heck, it beats big money, so on a board with a bunch of junk...
It's also nice in games with particular treasures you need to get a lead on (yeah, I'm looking at fool's gold here), and probably most importantly, in games with alternate VP cards, where you're really slogged down in a muck of green by the end.

I guess I could imagine Thief being worth a buy in a setup with Chapel and Fool's Gold, okay.  But I'm not convinced about the rest.  I mean, sure, it can put the hurt on a Chapel Big Money deck... but Chapel Big Money isn't actually much of an improvement over straight BM; it's not like Thief is countering what would otherwise be an unstoppable strategy.  Rather the presence of Thief would at best discourage me from doing something that's unnecessary to begin with.  I'll grant Fool's Gold and possibly Venture as exceptions.

It's maybe a bit unfortunate that the card rankings are basically assuming 2 player games.

I think Pirate Ship is the only card where it really makes much of a difference.  And even if we assumed people play multiplayer far more often then they actually do, it'd still in the bottom bottom third IMO.

Thief is pretty strong in 4p gardens games. No, seriously.

WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2012, 02:02:47 pm »
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You clearly underestimate thief. And that's really hard to do.
It's nice in trashing games where you have to go money. Heck, it beats big money, so on a board with a bunch of junk...
It's also nice in games with particular treasures you need to get a lead on (yeah, I'm looking at fool's gold here), and probably most importantly, in games with alternate VP cards, where you're really slogged down in a muck of green by the end.

I would think that in the last scenario, Thief will be more likely to help your opponent than hurt, just by discarding 2 green cards from the top of his deck.
...huh? I mean, sure that CAN happen, but it's only likely if they have so much green they're totally paralyzed anyway....

I guess when I read "alternate VP cards" I immediately thought of either Duke or Silk Roads, in which case I'd think it's not too uncommon for the top 2 cards to be victory. But I also suppose that hitting a silver would be much more devastating in those games.
Or copper.

DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2012, 03:02:45 pm »
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The cases where it (Coppersmith) shines may occur more rarely than with any other card, but then it's a must-buy.

Maybe they are so rare that I have never seen one :) Also: Coppersmith is NOT great with KC. If you have 2 coppers in hand, KC-ing Coppersmith is worse than KC-ing Navegador. You need to draw lots of stuff, then Coppersmith is good (but I seriously doubt that it is a must-buy).

The only surprise for me was this:

#32 Treasure Map (my rank: #9):

I really don't like TM, but I think it is not a bad card. It is a chance for bad and mediacore players and EVERY time it is on board you need to consider whether it is a bad idea or not. But I must admit I would put it lower if I made the list now...
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rrenaud

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2012, 03:14:13 pm »
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KC + coppersmith + card that draw more than 1 card + action with +buys  is rocking.

I am not sure how rare it is, given KC/coppersmith.  Someone want to do some combinatorics?  I hit the mega combo in about 1/5 of my KC/coppersmith games.

KC + (councilroom or wharf) + coppersmith is the quintessential combo. But you can split the +cards and the +buys card into two and still be okay.  KC + lab + coppersmith + pawn is good enough to go for it.

I've hit a Coppersmith mega turn 3 times, in these sets:

Chancellor, Colony, Coppersmith, Embassy, Feast, Ironworks, Island, King's Court, Loan, Menagerie, Nomad Camp, and Platinum
Coppersmith, Council Room, King's Court, Merchant Ship, Militia, Outpost, Saboteur, Shanty Town, Wharf, and Wishing Well
Cache, Coppersmith, Fishing Village, Great Hall, Hunting Party, King's Court, Library, Possession, Potion, Trader, and Worker's Village
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toaster

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2012, 03:14:48 pm »
+1

I do think that a chunk of higher level players rate Treasure Map down because they don't like how swingy it is rather than because of it's actual strength.  That said, I think it's rank of this list is pretty close to the mark (I had it at 31).  In many sets Treasure Map is just a trap, and even when it can be pulled off quickly, there are a number of sets where that isn't a decisive blow.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 04:23:22 pm by toaster »
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2012, 03:16:50 pm »
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RE: KC + (councilroom or wharf) + coppersmith...of course, the combo is actually bigger than that...you need a 4th card to pull it off (ideally another KC, or any +2 action card).  The gap between 3 and 4 card combos is often quite significant.
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theory

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2012, 03:26:20 pm »
+1

Tactician/Coppersmith is the easiest way to abuse Coppersmith, especially if you have Warehouse/Cellar.
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rrenaud

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2012, 03:26:57 pm »
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The limiting factor is having stuff in the supply, not making the combo go off conditioned on having the right ingredients. 

To start the combo with a plain drawer requires KC + KC + the drawer in hand, everything else is pretty much irrelevant. 

Wharf is especially forgiving in terms of making the combo go off, if you hit a KC + Wharf one turn, the next one you'll almost surely hit KC + KC + Wharf, since you start with 11 cards, and then the chance that you don't draw the whole deck is basically nil.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2012, 03:31:49 pm »
+1

Tactician is a pretty simple and strong combo with coppersmith. Not bad with apothecary either. And let's not forget Ill Gotten Gains.

Kore

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2012, 03:38:54 pm »
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Really surprised to see spy (my rank #43) winning out over situationally useful cards like bureaucrat (my rank #33), thief (#39) and feast (#27). Buying a spy is almost the same as skipping your buy. You haven't made your deck any weaker by adding a spy but you haven't made your deck any stronger either. In fact, if you have any kind of terminal draw, buying a spy hurts you more than it helps. The attack is at best a weaker bureaucrat that can't be chained and buying a catnip for the sake of buying a catnip is almost always a stupid idea. If it let you look at the top card before drawing it, it might have some use but I honestly can't think of a use for spies when vineyards, conspirators or peddlers aren't on the board.
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