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[Elanchana]

I played a game with those two cards a few weeks ago and EEEEVERYTHING WAS CONFUSING. So I want to ask about every interaction between them that I can think of.

What happens if...

• I play someone's Outpost while Possessing them once?
• I've Possessed them multiple times and play their Outpost during the first Possession turn?
• ...the last Possession turn?
• ...a/the middle Possession turn?
• ...two Possession turns in a row?
• I play Possession and my own Outpost in the same turn?
• I'm Possessing someone and I play their Possession and their Outpost?
• The above happens on the first Possession turn of a multi-Possession?
• ...the last Possession turn?
• ...a/the middle Possession turn?
• ...two Possession turns in a row?

And finally, can I replace "play Outpost" with "buy Mission" and get similar answers (as in, replace starting with a 3-card hand with not being able to buy cards) or would there be a difference?

[Burning Skull]

That's an extremely rare situation when you want to say something like that, BUT Dominion would have been a better game without these two interact.

[Infthitbox]

Well, there's this topic: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14193

and many more about this. I guess somewhere there's an answer.

[AdamH]

If I remember correctly, this is one of the Possession things that Goko didn't ever implement correctly. I have no idea if it's correct on the MF client (I would guess that it isn't). I think the part on Outpost that was like "this can't cause you to take more than two consecutive turns" wasn't respected completely or something.

[drsteelhammer]

The mission one is easy: It says "if the previous turn wasn't yours", that means playing it on any Possesion turn of yours will have no effect at all.

edit: Outpost say it can not make you take more than two consecutive turns. That means: If you played Outpost and Possession: You can choose which one to play first and you should take the Outpost one first otherwise it will have no effect. Playing Outpost on a possession turn does not do anything either since that would be atleast the third turn of yours. (It does give your opponent or your next possession turn a 3-card hand, though.)

[-Stef-]

I played a game with those two cards a few weeks ago and EEEEVERYTHING WAS CONFUSING. So I want to ask about every interaction between them that I can think of.

What happens if...

In contrast to when I made own rules clarification request about it, I now finally grok how these three cards interact.

I play someone's Outpost while Possessing them once?

O: they take another turn after this one. They only draw 3 cards at the end of this turn. After that they continue with their regular turn.
M: they take another turn after this one. They can't buy cards on it. After that they continue with their regular turn.

I've Possessed them multiple times and play their Outpost during the first Possession turn?

O: They draw only 3 cards at the end of this turn. After this turn several extra turns are waiting to happen for them (1 outpost controlled by them and some possession turns controlled by you). They choose which one comes first. If they choose their self-controlled turn first they just take it, and after that you possess them a couple of times, before the regular turns go on again. However, if they choose one of the turns possessed by you comes first they will have to choose their outpost turn later on. At that point it will fail to happen, because they already had >1 turn before it.
M: They also get a choice, but the mission turn will always happen, even if they choose it after some possessed turns.

...the last Possession turn?

O: They will draw only 3 cards on that last possession turn. The outpost turn will fail. So they get to do their regular turn after it with only 3 cards. Excellent plan for you.
M: nothing special happens. The mission turn fails, they just go on with their normal turn.

...a/the middle Possession turn?

O: The outpost turn will fail. Your possessions are still happening, but you'll draw only 3 cards at the end of this turn. Not a good plan.
M: no effect, the mission turn fails.

...two Possession turns in a row?

If you play 2 possessions on your turn, you get to possess the next player twice, before they take their own regular turn.

I play Possession and my own Outpost in the same turn?

You first take your outpost turn, then you take your possession turn, then they take their own regular turn. Nothing freaky here.

I'm Possessing someone and I play their Possession and their Outpost?

O: At the end of this turn they only draw 3, then they take an outpost turn, then they take a possession turn (controlling the player after them, which would be you in 2P), then they take their regular turn.
M: they take a mission turn, then they take a possession turn (controlling the player after them, which would be you in 2P), then they take their regular turn.

The above happens on the first Possession turn of a multi-Possession?

O: They get to make a choice: outpost first, or possessed-by-you-first (they will also possess the next player but can't choose to do so right now. First all the extra turns concerning them have to happen.) Again, only when they choose outpost-first, it actually happens. After all the extra turns for them have happened, they get to possess the next player, and after that their regular turn continues.
M: same as above, except the mission turn will not fail.

...the last Possession turn?

The outpost/mission turn will always fail. So the only thing that matters here is outpost lets you draw only 3 cards. Then they will possess the next player, and then they will take their regular turn.

...a/the middle Possession turn?

Again the outpost/mission turn will fail. In case of outpost, you hurt one of your own possession turns, nothing else. Also after you're done possessing them they get to play a possession turn of the next player.

...two Possession turns in a row?

If you possess them, and play 2 possessions, then after this turn they get to possess the next player twice. After they're done with that they take their regular turn.



maybe these will make it more clear:

• In *all* of your questions the next regular turn is theirs to take. Before we get to that all of the extra turns that were generated have to happen
• possessed turns are turns owned by the player being possessed, even though someone else gets to make all the decisions
• turns always happen in turn order. This also applies to extra turns, regardless of what card created them
• in case several extra turns are trying to happen for the same person, that person chooses which one goes first
• The condition on outpost turns is checked when they happen; the condition on mission turns is checked when you buy it; possession turns just always happen

[Jeebus]

The reply from drsteelhammer is wrong, because it doesn't take into account the fact that a Possession turn is always played by the Possessed player. That is, it's the Possessed player's turn, not the Possessor's turn. EDIT: cross-post with Stef.

What happens if...
I play someone's Outpost while Possessing them once?

So you mean that they play Outpost (as chosen by you). They draw 3 cards in Clean-up, then get an extra turn from Outpost (since they've only had one turn before, the extra turn from Possession). They control this turn. Then they get their normal turn.

I've Possessed them multiple times and play their Outpost during the first Possession turn?

So you mean that they play Outpost. They draw 3 cards in Clean-up. Then after this turn, they (not you*) decide whether to take the Outpost turn or a Possession turn. If they choose Possession, the 3 card turn will be controlled by you, then the Outpost turn won't happen, since they already had two turns. If they choose Outpost, the 3 card turn will be controlled by them. Then the rest of the Possession turns happen.

*Donald recently changed this ruling. Before the Possessor got to choose in between turns.

...the last Possession turn?
...a/the middle Possession turn?

In either case, they draw 3 cards in Clean-up, but don't get an extra turn, since they already had two or more turns. EDIT: As clarified by Stef, if it's the last Possession turn, their regular turn will be the 3 card turn. If not, it will be one of the Possession turns controlled by you.

...two Possession turns in a row?

The second time, they draw 3 cards in Clean-up, but don't get an extra turn, since they already had two or more turns.

I play Possession and my own Outpost in the same turn?

Your extra turn (from Outpost) always comes first, since you're the active player and effects go in turn order.

I'm Possessing someone and I play their Possession and their Outpost?

So you mean that they play Possession and Outpost. Their extra turn (from Outpost) always comes first, then the next player's extra turn (from Possession). The next player is the player after them; it's you if it's a two player game. After that turn, they (the player you Possessed) get their normal turn.

The above happens on the first Possession turn of a multi-Possession?

They draw 3 cards in Clean-up. Then after this turn, they decide whether to take the Outpost turn or a Possession turn. If they choose Possession, the Outpost turn won't happen, since they already had two turns. Then the rest of their Possession turns happen. After that the next player's Possession turn happens. After that turn, they (the player you Possessed) get their normal turn.

...the last Possession turn?
...a/the middle Possession turn?

In either case, they draw 3 cards in Clean-up, but don't get an extra turn, since they already had two or more turns. After any and all of their Possession turns, the next player's Possession turn happens. After that turn, they (the player you Possessed) get their normal turn.

...two Possession turns in a row?

The second time, they draw 3 cards in Clean-up, but don't get an extra turn, since they already had two or more turns. After any and all of their Possession turns, the next player's two Possession turns happen. After that turn, they (the player you Possessed) get their normal turn.

And finally, can I replace "play Outpost" with "buy Mission" and get similar answers (as in, replace starting with a 3-card hand with not being able to buy cards) or would there be a difference?

The difference is if you Possessed them multiple times and they buy Mission:

If it's the first Possession turn, they will get the Mission turn, since their previous turn wasn't theirs. After this turn, they decide whether to take the Mission turn or a Possession turn. In any case the Mission turn will happen. If they choose Possession now, they get to make the same choice again afterwards (until the Mission turn is played or there are no more Possession turns).

If it's a later Possession turn, buying Mission will not get them an extra turn, since the previous turn was theirs.

[Jeebus]

Stef, you misunderstood the questions about two Possession turns in a row. See my answer.

Good call on the 3 card hand for you or your opponent depending on whether you make them play Outpost on the last Possession turn or an earlier turn. I missed that important aspect.

Several places you refer to taking "your" Possession turn, when in fact it's not your turn; or taking "their" Possession turns, when in fact it's not their turn. The root of a lot of the confusion in these interactions is not realizing that it's the Possessed player's turn, so I think it should be phrased differently.

[sudgy]

I haven't read the questions or the answers, but this is what I remember being the answer to all of these types of questions:

Each player has an "extra turn queue".  Whenever a card says for a player to take an extra turn, you add it to the queue.  At the end of a turn, you check the current player's extra turn queue.  If they have any extra turns, take them.  If not, check the next player's extra turn queue.  If they have any, take them.  If nobody has extra turns, you go on to the next player.  If someone has multiple types of extra turns, they choose which one to take.

Possession always adds an extra turn, even if it takes a while to get there.

Outpost will always make you draw three cards and adds something to the extra turn queue.  At the time you choose to take the Outpost turn, it checks if it would cause you to take too many consecutive turns, and the turn will fail at that time.

Mission checks if the last turn was yours when you buy it, so if that part succeeds, it adds it to the extra turn queue.

[-Stef-]

Stef, you misunderstood the questions about two Possession turns in a row. See my answer.

I think you're right and I indeed misunderstood those questions, but probably there is no right way to understand them?
The whole idea of doing something on two possessed turns in a row is invalid if what you do on the first generates another extra turn.
Those two possessed turns won't be on a row anymore, and we're just looking at the same situation as the questions referring to "the last/middle possessed turn".

Several places you refer to taking "your" Possession turn, when in fact it's not your turn; or taking "their" Possession turns, when in fact it's not their turn. The root of a lot of the confusion in these interactions is not realizing that it's the Possessed player's turn, so I think it should be phrased differently.

I think the root of the confusion is not lack of understanding of the rules for most players, but a gap between what the rules call yours and what technically is yours.

Suppose we play a "simple" game: no village of any kind, no missions, no outposts, just possession. You buy it and I don't. You manage to build a deck-drawing engine and your terminal is always possession. Technically speaking I am taking twice as many turns as you. Half of my turns are controlled by me, the other half controlled by you. But that's not how it feels to anyone out there. It sure as hell feels like you are taking two turns for every turn I have (and, on a sad note, I'm not going to like that game, even when I win it).

[Elanchana]

THANK. YOU. FRIENDS. That was wonderful.

[Burning Skull]

grok

It's peculiar to see this word in everyday speech. Had it become a part of modern English language or is it just you loving Heinlein?

[Infthitbox]

I'm not sure how common it is, but in my office it is used frequently.

[Jeebus]

The whole idea of doing something on two possessed turns in a row is invalid if what you do on the first generates another extra turn.
Those two possessed turns won't be on a row anymore, and we're just looking at the same situation as the questions referring to "the last/middle possessed turn".

True (mostly), but still I'm pretty sure that was the question.

I think the root of the confusion is not lack of understanding of the rules for most players, but a gap between what the rules call yours and what technically is yours.

Maybe so, but this is a rules question, and the cards refer to counting "your" turns, so it's important in our replies to be clear about what constitutes "your" turns.

[markusin]

Can I take the opportunity to ask what happens in this scenario?

P1 plays Possession
P2 (Possessed by P1) plays Possession.

So from what I read in this thread, P1 gets a turn while possessed as P2 before P2 gets a regular turn. If so, what happens if:

P1 (possessed by P2) plays Possession (before P2 gets a regular turn)

Does this lead to:

P2 (possessed by P1) ...<doesn't play Possession>
P2 (normal turn)

Is that what happens? What if instead P2 played another Possession on the turn possessed by P1? Does P1 get yet another turn where they are possessed by P2 before P2 gets their normal turn? Can the players just keep playing Possession while being possessed themselves for the rest of the game preventing normal turns from ever happening?

[sudgy]

Can I take the opportunity to ask what happens in this scenario?

P1 plays Possession
P2 (Possessed by P1) plays Possession.

So from what I read in this thread, P1 gets a turn while possessed as P2 before P2 gets a regular turn. If so, what happens if:

P1 (possessed by P2) plays Possession (before P2 gets a regular turn)

Does this lead to:

P2 (possessed by P1) ...<doesn't play Possession>
P2 (normal turn)

Is that what happens? What if instead P2 played another Possession on the turn possessed by P1? Does P1 get yet another turn where they are possessed by P2 before P2 gets their normal turn? Can the players just keep playing Possession while being possessed themselves for the rest of the game preventing normal turns from ever happening?

Yes, a normal turn never happens until all extra turns are done.

[enfynet]

I thought Turn Order would kick in, preventing this odd skip around pattern.

[sudgy]

I thought Turn Order would kick in, preventing this odd skip around pattern.

With several extra turns, Turn Order kicks in, but as long as there are extra turns, you need to get those done first.

[werothegreat]

The wiki page for either Possession or Outpost should reflect the most up-to-date interpretation of the rules.  Please let me know if it doesn't.

[Dingan]

Just played a game w/ Possession, Outpost, and Tactician:
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160201/log.0.1454295979123.txt

Super weird.  So I guess this can happen:
- I (P1) play 1 Possession
- I play 1 turn as P2
- During that turn, I play Outpost
- P2 (not possessed) plays the 3-card hand.  That turn ends, and now it's my (P1) turn, with the game "back to normal".

So this was basically an attack because P2 did not get another turn after their Outpost turn.

[-Stef-]

Just played a game w/ Possession, Outpost, and Tactician:
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160201/log.0.1454295979123.txt

Super weird.  So I guess this can happen:
- I (P1) play 1 Possession
- I play 1 turn as P2
- During that turn, I play Outpost
- P2 (not possessed) plays the 3-card hand.  That turn ends, and now it's my (P1) turn, with the game "back to normal".

So this was basically an attack because P2 did not get another turn after their Outpost turn.

This is not what is supposed to happen; MF has it wrong here.

On your turn 12 you played a possession. At this point an extra turn should be generated owned by ShortyMinx and controlled by you. This is where the first (although very small) mistake happens: they claim it's ShortyMinx's turn 13, where in fact it's an extra turn generated by turn 12. On that turn you play an Outpost. Since ShortyMinx wasn't the owner of the last two consecutive turns, he should get an extra one, drawing only 3 cards. The second mistake is a lot more severe, MF simply doesn't hand out this extra turn.


What happens here - "outpost as an attack" - is only supposed to work if you played at least two possessions, and make your opponent play the outpost on the last turn you possess him.

[Elanchana]

Just played a game w/ Possession, Outpost, and Tactician:
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160201/log.0.1454295979123.txt

Super weird.  So I guess this can happen:
- I (P1) play 1 Possession
- I play 1 turn as P2
- During that turn, I play Outpost
- P2 (not possessed) plays the 3-card hand.  That turn ends, and now it's my (P1) turn, with the game "back to normal".

So this was basically an attack because P2 did not get another turn after their Outpost turn.

This is not what is supposed to happen; MF has it wrong here.

On your turn 12 you played a possession. At this point an extra turn should be generated owned by ShortyMinx and controlled by you. This is where the first (although very small) mistake happens: they claim it's ShortyMinx's turn 13, where in fact it's an extra turn generated by turn 12. On that turn you play an Outpost. Since ShortyMinx wasn't the owner of the last two consecutive turns, he should get an extra one, drawing only 3 cards. The second mistake is a lot more severe, MF simply doesn't hand out this extra turn.


What happens here - "outpost as an attack" - is only supposed to work if you played at least two possessions, and make your opponent play the outpost on the last turn you possess him.

Yeah, that's what caused my confusion in the first place. I was in the same situation when I thought I would get the extra turn but it flipped back to my opponent and they just had the one turn with a three-card hand. Then I tried to do the same thing on a multi-Possession turn and it got WEIRD.