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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $3 cards  (Read 42354 times)

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mnavratil

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 10:57:52 am »
0

Sometimes Fortune teller is better than a single rabble.

But then again sometimes it's not.
Rabble, for instance, won't let your opponent top-deck a dual-type victory card (Nobles, Harem...) where fortune teller will. This can make fortune teller helpful to the oppoonent in more cases than just baron or tournament.

I do tend to wonder why fortune teller doesn't share the same wording with Rabble.
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michaeljb

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 11:34:13 am »
0

I never got around to making my own lists for this project (wish I had, but oh well), but I wanted to chime in on a few cards here:

-I thought Oracle was incredibly weak when I first read it, but now that I've actually played with it a couple times, I've found it's much better than my first impression, and I'm fairly certain it would be higher on my list.

-Workshop better than Fortune Teller?? ok yeah...both situational, but I've definitely found Fortune Teller better in a much wider variety of situations than Workshop.

-Smugglers, Black Market, both are too high. Black Market is more like the Black Casino, and Smugglers is more like wish-I-would-have-had-a-Silver. Not sure how I'd rank these two against each other. To be fair, there are certain boards where Smugglers can be a powerhouse card, almost like a Workshop gaining up to $6. But most of the time, it's no good.

-One of Loan's nice features is not having to spend an Action to use, and it is also an excellent counter to those top-deck attacks. I don't think it's fair to call Loan weak without acknowledging those two features which are definitely strengths. Sure, sometimes it hits your only Silver (and of course later on it's more likely to hit better treasure--because you've been dumping Coppers remember? Plus you don't keep playing Lookout late into the game), but it is definitely a legitimate early game trasher, something Trade Route can't really say (unless of course the openings involve Great Hall or Island or whatever).

-Oh and about Scheme: best (or at least my favorite) uses of Schemes are too repeatedly play Attack cards and Hunting Parties.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:38:47 am by michaeljb »
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Tables

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 02:00:02 pm »
0

Hm... looks like I've overrated Chancellor, Workshop and Oasis, while underrating Black Market and Village.

Chancellor... I don't think is a great card. But I think it's advantages (faster shuffling) outweigh the cards beneath it. I probably overrated it a little, but I'd say it outweighs the very situational Tactican/BM deck, Woodcutter, Oracle... quite a few of the +$2 terminals, actually.

Workshop is generally bad, but it has those occasions that it's so good: Gardens and Silk Road, and other cases when there are great $3 or $4's out. Again, I think I overrated it, but I think people underestimate what it can really do (especially the Ironworks argument... yes, it's worse in games with Ironworks, but what if there isn't and you want some $4's?)

Oasis I just don't have enough experience with, but in games with no trashing it feels pretty good, and discarding a card can be taken advantage of, with Menagerie, Library and other similar cards. I think my opinion might fall as I use it more.

Black Market was mentioned already, but really asides from Tactician, all you can really do with BM is hope to hit a really good card early. Unless the BM deck is really good, that doesn't happen most of the time. You might win big with this card, but more often, you'll lose slightly. And Dominion isn't a game that cares about the magnitude of your wins.

Village... everyone knows about village :P. Actually, I didn't underrate this by THAT much, but as a source of extra actions I find it pretty mediocre in general.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 02:10:16 pm »
+1

Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game

I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game.  Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.

Anyway, yeah this list is way wronger than the $2s.  In particular: Smugglers is massively overrated, even at #20: I was one of the #25 votes, and I think there's a pretty huge gap between Smugglers and the next best card (which probably deserves to be Workshop, though I think I voted for something else there).  Fortune Teller is severely underrated; I think I had it at #16, so not the largest outlier but much higher than average.  Oracle is similarly underrated.  Black Market and Trade Route, on the other hand, are too high.  I had BM at #20, and was worried that I was overrating it given how bad it is at actually winning games; and Trade Route I had all the way down at #21 though on reflection it ought to be a few spots higher than that.  Trade Route has many of the same problems of Develop, though it is better at getting you Victory cards and the +buy helps a lot.  Come to think of it #17 was probably around right.

I don't have Scheme as low as TINAS, but I also sure don't think it deserves to be in the top 11.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 12:51:11 am by chwhite »
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 02:14:01 pm »
0

Hm... looks like I've overrated Chancellor, Workshop and Oasis, while underrating Black Market and Village.

Actually I'd say you're more right than not.  Chancellor is not nearly as bad as its reputation; I had it at #22 (still pretty low, but better than Develop, Smugglers, Workshop, and Woodcutter).  Oasis is a strong utility card: very often as good as Peddler, and sometimes better (Menagerie for instance).  And everyone overrates Black Market.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 02:16:16 pm by chwhite »
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rrenaud

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2012, 02:32:00 pm »
0

One good point for develop, unlike many threes, and all of the other poorly rated 3s, is that it can be really damn good.  And the other is that it's a trasher, and you mostly expect trashers to be good early and poor late, but develop is much better late than it is early.

Put a $7 on the board and it's sweet. 
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120104-204526-9c34f008.html#rrenaud-show-turn-15
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 02:41:15 pm »
0

Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game

I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game.  Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.

You're right, of course. When I wrote that I had "As there is no Attack card for $2, look at the worst attack in the game." in my head from the list text. I didn't stop to think that there could be a worse attack at a higher cost, and there are in fact many. Not Bureucrat though. Bureaucrat is a great card. My only other major problem with the list text that I'd suggest changing is the part about Shanty Town where it says you can play one followed by two terminals and then another ST. That's just plain wrong.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 03:03:30 pm »
0

I am a great defender of Shanty Town as an elite opener paired with something other than  a terminal.  It is only great in decks that run a non-terminal engine or Torturer or Rabble without another Village on the board.  One Shanty Town in a deck with no terminals is essentially a Laboratory and should be respected as an early game card.

Very nice work, Qvist.  Kudos.
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2012, 03:26:25 pm »
0

Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game

I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game.  Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.

I think you are wrong. Bereaucrat is just better. Thief, Noble Brigand and Pirate Ship are all very good in 3+ players, so you cannot purely say that they are worse (although I made my lists mainly for 2p game). And Saboteur? Can you imagine Saboteur costing $3?
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Fabian

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2012, 03:39:10 pm »
0

What does it matter how good Saboteur would or wouldn't be if it was a full $2 cheaper? Fortune Teller is clearly a much much better card than Saboteur. It's a lot better than Thief and Noble Brigand too, and certainly better than Pirate Ship in 2p games at least.
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2012, 04:03:23 pm »
0

What does it matter how good Saboteur would or wouldn't be if it was a full $2 cheaper? Fortune Teller is clearly a much much better card than Saboteur. It's a lot better than Thief and Noble Brigand too, and certainly better than Pirate Ship in 2p games at least.

You can gain Saboteur or Fortune Teller - which one would you take? Qvist did not mean "relative to the cost", he meant it absolute (at least I hope he did, if he did not, he was terribly wrong of course)...
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Voltgloss

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2012, 04:07:44 pm »
0

Comparing Fortune Teller to Bureaucrat seems interesting, as both are terminal actions that sorta do the same things (giving you $2 and topdecking the opponent's green), but obviously go about them in quite different ways.  Fortune Teller gives you +$2 right away; Bureaucrat gives you a Silver in your next draw.  And Fortune Teller digs through the opponent's deck for a green, while Bureaucrat hits them again with a green they already have in hand.

That said, Bureaucrat "must" be better than Fortune Teller because it costs $4 instead of $3.  Discussion so far in this thread seems to agree with that conclusion.  Yet Bureaucrat does have some inarguable drawbacks - it doesn't increase your buying power in the turn you actually play it (unless you sneak it into the middle of a +Actions/+Cards run), and if your opponent isn't holding green its attack has no effect.  So what is it about how Bureacrat does things that makes it better than Fortune Teller?  Is it that important to have a card breeding Silvers without you having to buy them (and if so, why are things like Workshop and Explorer looked down upon)?  Is it that much more effective to hit your opponent twice with a green they already have in hand, despite the risk your attack may whiff if their green is all in their deck?

Note that I, too, consider Bureaucrat to be more useful than Fortune Teller, though I'm having a difficult time exactly articulating why, and would be curious to hear other folks' thoughts.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2012, 04:09:11 pm »
0

#13 Loan (my rank: #22): Okay, so you want me, to buy a Copper instead of a Silver so I can trash my Coppers??? Are you nuts? This is the 2nd (after Develop) worst trasher in the game! Unless you have absolutely no other choice, it is a big NO and there are many boards, where Loan is the only trasher, and it is still SO SLOW, you don't want to waste time for buying it over Silver. Compare it to other "coppertrashers" - Moneylender gives you $3, Spice Merchant gives you +2cards/+1action. This poor guy gives you a Copper. No, thanks! (I know that Moneylender and SM trashes the Copper from your hand, so they give you a virtual "-$1", but at least you KNOW that you gonna trash the Copper, Loan can show you a Gold)
There are a couple subtle things about loan that make it better than Moneylender and Spice Merchant, imo.
1. It doesn't take an action
2. It costs only $3, so you can open it with a good (terminal) $4 card
3. It only gives $1 less than moneylender, but cycles at least 1 card
4. It gives about the same money as spice merchant (assuming cards give $1 on average).
5. You don't have to trash to get the $1
Quote
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.

Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more.  It's a huge difference.

Maybe one should compare it more to Courtyard?
It compared to courtyard like cellar does to warehouse. Theory would hate it :)

Ah, but even the simulators (!) show that BM/Oracle is superior to BM/Smithy. And they necessarily play Oracle sub-optimally. Oracle is actually a power card.
Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.

Other stuff:
I agree with most people that the attacks are too low and black market is too high. It's hard to complain, because while I put a lot of thought into the top of my list, I didn't spend much time on the rest, as it's really hard to compare the really situational $3 cards. The one that I ranked much lower than it turned out was oasis. I guess I underrated it, but I felt like it's mostly a do-nothing card (if you discard a copper, it's essentially a cantrip) that in some situations (menagerie, minion, library-types) is pretty good. I have a hard time seeing how it can rank better than wishing well, for instance.

EDIT:
To add more specific discussion about the attacks:
I'm not surprised fortune teller is low, since it's not a good early game attack. Like rabble, it's a good late game attack, and it's easy to forget about $3 cards late game.

The thing with oracle is when you first read it, nothing jumps out at you, but if you think about it at all, it's pretty good. Skipping a good card in the early game hurts sooo much. Yes +2 Cards isn't sexy, but no one complains about witch being weak. You can't say an attack card is bad by ignoring the attack part.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 04:23:18 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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DStu

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2012, 04:09:17 pm »
0

@DrHades
But absolute includes the cost. If there was a card "Your opponent trashes a Province" for $24, that would be the worst attack in the game. Exactly because it costs $24.
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DStu

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2012, 04:12:34 pm »
0

Note that I, too, consider Bureaucrat to be more useful than Fortune Teller, though I'm having a difficult time exactly articulating why, and would be curious to hear other folks' thoughts.

I think it's because the decks you want the Bureaucrat for are these where you want to have the Silver, the attack is just a bonus.
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ycz6

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2012, 04:31:42 pm »
0

Didn't vote, but I'm finding the discussion interesting.

I feel like pointing out that of course the $3 list is going to have more deviation per person. There are more cards!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2012, 04:33:29 pm »
0

Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.

In that it wins heads-up.
What bots are you using?

theory

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2012, 04:37:17 pm »
0

Comparing Fortune Teller to Bureaucrat seems interesting, as both are terminal actions that sorta do the same things (giving you $2 and topdecking the opponent's green), but obviously go about them in quite different ways.  Fortune Teller gives you +$2 right away; Bureaucrat gives you a Silver in your next draw.  And Fortune Teller digs through the opponent's deck for a green, while Bureaucrat hits them again with a green they already have in hand.

That said, Bureaucrat "must" be better than Fortune Teller because it costs $4 instead of $3.  Discussion so far in this thread seems to agree with that conclusion.  Yet Bureaucrat does have some inarguable drawbacks - it doesn't increase your buying power in the turn you actually play it (unless you sneak it into the middle of a +Actions/+Cards run), and if your opponent isn't holding green its attack has no effect.  So what is it about how Bureacrat does things that makes it better than Fortune Teller?  Is it that important to have a card breeding Silvers without you having to buy them (and if so, why are things like Workshop and Explorer looked down upon)?  Is it that much more effective to hit your opponent twice with a green they already have in hand, despite the risk your attack may whiff if their green is all in their deck?

Note that I, too, consider Bureaucrat to be more useful than Fortune Teller, though I'm having a difficult time exactly articulating why, and would be curious to hear other folks' thoughts.
1) Because the attack does hurt more if you're putting stuff from your hand onto your deck, by slowing your cycling.

2) Because the Silvers accumulate over time in a way that FT does not.
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2012, 04:43:01 pm »
0

@DrHades
But absolute includes the cost. If there was a card "Your opponent trashes a Province" for $24, that would be the worst attack in the game. Exactly because it costs $24.

When you hava $5 and one buy in game, then all the cards that have $5 or less are exactly $5 now. You won't buy Menagerie over Lab just because it is cheeper - the cost just don't matter right now. This is the reason why comparing cards without the cost makes perfect sence, are we on the same page now? :)

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Fabian

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2012, 04:57:11 pm »
0

DrHades, so Possession is better than Fishing Village. King's Court is better than Masquerade. Expand is better than Throne Room. See how useless and silly it is to think in those terms? It's definitely not how everyone else thinks about card strength, in any case.

(bonus: Warehouse is better than Cellar!)
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2012, 05:04:08 pm »
0

Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.

In that it wins heads-up.
What bots are you using?
Well back when I did it, I put less time and effort into the oracle bot than you did. But just now, using the ones in geronimoo's simulator (your oracle and my smithy), smithy wins 49-42.

When you hava $5 and one buy in game, then all the cards that have $5 or less are exactly $5 now. You won't buy Menagerie over Lab just because it is cheeper - the cost just don't matter right now. This is the reason why comparing cards without the cost makes perfect sence, are we on the same page now? :)
And when you have $4 and one buy in game, then all cards costing $4 or less cost $4, and all cards costing $5 or more cost $infinity...
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2012, 05:15:15 pm »
0

Yes, when I say that one card is stronger than the other, I almost always mean relatively to the cost. BUT there are good reasons to consider which card is better in absolute. I would not say that a card is "the worst absolute attack" because I think it is not interesting at all, but I think Qvist meant it this way.

Are we clear now? Finally?  ;D
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Fabian

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2012, 05:22:44 pm »
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As long as you understand Qvist didn't mean it the way you mean it, and no one else means it in that way either, then I think we're clear!
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Deadlock39

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2012, 05:53:17 pm »
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A $3 Saboteur would certainly be degenerate, but it would still be a crappy attack.

DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2012, 06:03:00 pm »
0

As long as you understand Qvist didn't mean it the way you mean it, and no one else means it in that way either, then I think we're clear!

I did never mean it that way. I am just saying how I think Qvist meant it.
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