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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $3 cards  (Read 41917 times)

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BJ Penn

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #100 on: May 27, 2012, 01:54:04 pm »
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Can somebody explain the logic of Steward at 4?

Menagerie, Swindler, and Scheme completely out-class it in my opinion.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2012, 01:56:54 pm »
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Can somebody explain the logic of Steward at 4?

Menagerie, Swindler, and Scheme completely out-class it in my opinion.


Probably the same reason Chapel is number 1 on the $2 list. People around here are still obsessed with trashing despite the game moving on. Don't get me wrong, both cards are strong, just not nearly as strong as they used to be.
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yuma

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #102 on: May 27, 2012, 06:46:19 pm »
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Can somebody explain the logic of Steward at 4?

Menagerie, Swindler, and Scheme completely out-class it in my opinion.

I think it is ok at 4... the difference between 4 and 7 isn't that far apart. What I like about Steward is that it is ok a lot of different things--although not at the same type obviously and is adaptable as the game progresses. Decent trasher, decent card draw, decent $ generator. Not a must buy always but neither are the three you mention. I would put Menagerie above it, but probably not the other two.
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Morgrim7

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #103 on: May 27, 2012, 06:54:38 pm »
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Not totally taken off guard by anything…except for Develop being the worst. What? Below Chancellor? Really? Develop is NOT that bad!
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #104 on: May 27, 2012, 07:18:08 pm »
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You're using Chancellor as your comparison. What? Really? Chancellor is NOT that bad! It's a decent terminal $2, and has one very powerful combo at least. Develop needs very specific circumstances to not be total garbage.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #105 on: May 27, 2012, 07:25:40 pm »
+3

The activity in this thread caused me to go over the list again. I am really, really struck by how mis-ranked Oracle is. It doesn't belong in the bottom third at all. I would also put Fortune Teller at least a couple slots higher. Develop and Chancellor absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, deserve last and second last place.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #106 on: May 27, 2012, 07:28:34 pm »
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You're using Chancellor as your comparison. What? Really? Chancellor is NOT that bad! It's a decent terminal $2, and has one very powerful combo at least. Develop needs very specific circumstances to not be total garbage.
No, here are some good examples of Develop being a good card:
-Cursers, no other trashing.
-Border Village w/$7 card
-Familiar w/Golem and 2P
-Sea Hag
-Cutpurse
-Any other card that loses its value later in the game.

Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.
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ehunt

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #107 on: May 27, 2012, 07:37:56 pm »
+2

on a board where chancellor is the only terminal, i'll basically always pick one up. on a board where develop is the only terminal, i'll basically always ignore it.

separately, i prefer chancellor to fortune teller.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #108 on: May 27, 2012, 07:45:35 pm »
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on a board where chancellor is the only terminal, i'll basically always pick one up. on a board where develop is the only terminal, i'll basically always ignore it.

separately, i prefer chancellor to fortune teller.
if stash isn't present, taking fortune teller over chancellor any day.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #109 on: May 27, 2012, 08:06:46 pm »
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First I'll just point out calling Develop total garbage was a slight exaggeration, it's more... very weak in most cases.

No, here are some good examples of Develop being a good card:
-Cursers, no other trashing.

No. Unless the game is going to end up being really long anyway because of other brutal attacks, you're going to be better off buying a silver or other $3, rather than adding an extra essentially dead card to your deck so you might be able to use your action twice if you collide it with a curse to gain 1 VP and get rid of a dead card. I did a little testing with e.g. BM+Witch against BM+Witch+Develop for example, and the best conditions I could get for the Develop were basically the ones that bought the Develop as late as possible (e.g. if you have >=6 curses is a pretty close loss - if you have 6 curses, you're probably gonna lose anyway, but buying the Develop still hurts you!)

Quote
-Border Village w/$7 card

Border Village, Develop, and one of four cards costing $7? That falls comfortably into the extremely rare conditions category. Not to mention it's not even that good. You need to actually draw the BV and a Develop together, and well, which $7 were you really hoping to fit into a BV/Develop strategies? It's going to depend a lot on the $5's, and that makes it even harder to be successful.

Quote
-Familiar w/Golem and 2P

Even rarer conditions than above, for a combo that's not. Golem into Develop? Sounds like a quick way to lose.

Quote
-Sea Hag

This can be helpful, but you need to collide the Sea Hag (or two) with your Develop in a deck likely full of curses. If it is, this is pretty unlikely to be useful. If it's not, then, well, I presume you have trashing, and the value of TFBing the Sea Hag into a $5+$3 compared to just trashing it (especially as the trashing you have might be trash for benefit anyway!) is not going to be worth the oppertunity cost of buying the Develop, trying to collide them and being left with the Develop at the end still anyway. I'd probably say this is a very minor improvement over just flat Sea Hags.

Quote
-Cutpurse

Uhh... why?

Quote
-Any other card that loses its value later in the game.

This can certainly make Develop an option in some situations, but most of the time you don't buy enough earlygame cards to make the Develops actually valuable. It might sound like a really good strategy to buy some Trade Posts early, thin your early cards into Silvers then turn the Trade Posts into Golds and some $4's with Develop later, but you need to actually draw those Trade Posts and Develops together later, which is difficult.

Really, all of those reasons are things that can make Develop not totally ignorable, but you need a good 2-3 of them to even make Develop a noticable improvement over a silver.

Quote
Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.

Wrong twice. Chancellor is AMAZING with Stash, it's an extremely strong two card combo. It can just e.g. tank past curses from a BM+Witch deck, green early, and pick up Provinces at a very rapid pace. And other than that, it's a terminal Silver with a decent secondary effect. Discarding your deck on average is a fairly good thing until late in the game, it speeds up getting purchaces into your deck and can circumvent a number of deck inspection attacks. It's not great - it's certainly no Swindler, but it's a generally overlooked and often useful terminal Silver. In the absensce of other terminals, I'm certainly picking it up over Fortune Teller and, depending on the other cards, quite often over Navigator and Woodcutter.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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BJ Penn

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #110 on: May 27, 2012, 08:21:34 pm »
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Another vote for Oracle being ridiculously out of place. I don't have a simulator or anything, but I'd imagine it is similar to courtyard and Smithy in effectiveness in BM games.
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cherdano

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #111 on: May 27, 2012, 08:28:12 pm »
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I agree that Develop is underrated - it is certainly better than I had thought originally. Basically whenever you are building an engine where you need cards in the range $4/$5/$6 or $5/$6/$7, develops gives you a $5 value at the cost of two places in your hand and an action, plus topdecking the two new cards - that usually pretty good value.

I also think using it on curses or sea hags etc. can very occasionally be useful - basically when the game is going to be very long, and you have some card draw e.g. via labs, and you want to transition slowly into having a decent hand. Could be a colony game, or a goons game, etc.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #112 on: May 27, 2012, 08:28:23 pm »
+3

Please don't lump courtyard and smithy together for big money enablers.  Thanks.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #113 on: May 27, 2012, 08:50:49 pm »
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With everyone bashing develop, I feel a certain urge to defend it  ;) I won't say I love it, but I certainly don't ignore it either. It doesn't feel like the lamest $3 card to me at all.

If it's the only trasher, and I really want to build an engine (and I always do) then develop it will be. If I play with scrying pools, I don't care how bad the trasher is - those coppers and estates just have to go. The engine is almost always worth it.

Another scenario that springs to mind is vineyards; its ok to gain points by putting another 2 actions on my deck.

It feels quite good with IGG. Getting a gold on my deck... yummie. Getting rid of a curse... not that bad. In a straight IGG-rush I probably don't have time to pick up a develop, but in a slightly different game (say IGG + witch) I think I'd go for it at some point.

And of course develop can really shine in end-game shenanigans. If both players have a very strong deck and I want to threaten to end the game on 3 piles, develop is likely to help a lot. Put it on your deck, draw it, use it, repeat...  8)
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #114 on: May 27, 2012, 11:57:02 pm »
+1

I do think develop is being underrated too. I may want it less often than something like chancellor, but when I do want it, it can be really important. Okay, still it's terrible. But not SO bad as people are giving credit...

chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #115 on: May 28, 2012, 01:38:44 am »
+3

Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.

You must not be... familiar with opening Chancellor/Potion on certain Curse boards.  8)

...

I think I was one of the first people to rag on Develop when it was new, basically saying that "I'm Level 40 and I think that playing Develop well is above my pay grade, so I avoid it and win.  Maybe when I'm Level 50 I'll have it figured out".  Well, I'm not quite Level 50 but I do think it's a lot better than I originally gave it credit for.  The cute tricks you can do with exploding one good card into two good cards still don't work all that well most of the time... but sometimes they do (IGG, Grand Market for instance), and slow single-card TFB is strong when Curses are around (Hag games especially), or if, say, you're building a cantrip engine in a Colony game.

Now, it's still not good- I continue to buy it less often than Chancellor (which I maintain is slightly underrated), though it's going to be a bigger help when you do buy it (Stash/Familiar/Inn games excepted).  If I was making this list again, I'd have to at least consider kicking Develop up from the basement, and returning to just hatin' on Smugglers instead.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 01:43:20 am by chwhite »
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #116 on: May 28, 2012, 02:39:29 am »
+2

Just want to remind everyone that the voting for these lists were done when Hinterlands hadn't been out for very long, so there are probably a lot of semi-random misrankings of Hinterlands cards. I think if voting were to be done again, Oracle wouldn't be nearly so low, though Develop would still hang around the bottom.

Oracle had a pretty huge variance in rankings. If you look at the extreme votes for Oracle, the top 3 are rank 9-11, which is close to where it should be, imo (I have it at 10), but there are 3 last-place votes. This is likely the result of people not having played with it yet, and arbitrarily putting it last.

Develop, on the other hand, people continue to argue should be last. I personally think Develop should be above Chancellor, because it's more often actually a dominant card. But it still needs a lot of things right about the Kingdom to actually be that good, since it kind of depends on having worthwhile cards at a lot of different price points. So it's hard to rank it too far from the bottom.
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Morgrim7

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #117 on: May 28, 2012, 09:59:36 am »
0

Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.

You must not be... familiar with opening Chancellor/Potion on certain Curse boards.  8)
??? What does this do? Provide +$2? Ensure you could play your Familiar more often? Is that not possible with Sea Hag and YW also?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh, now I see your point.
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I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

Asklepios

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #118 on: May 28, 2012, 11:24:12 am »
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I'd personally would place Chancellor as the 2nd weakest $3 card and Develop as the weakest $3 card. Having said that I think there's plenty of circumstances where I'd buy them - the game design here is good, I think, in that even these "weakest" cards need to be considered when looking over a kingdom. There is NO card in Dominion so weak that you should never buy it, just as there's no card so strong that you should always buy it.

So, for Develop, I think people have already mentioned some nice tricks, along the lines of IGG, Border Village, etc.
More broadly though, I think its worth thinking the following:
- Does it have the potential to create a topdecked pair of cards that will go well together? (like say, Fishing Village / Wharf out of my now redundant Sea Hag, or a Duchy / Great Hall for my Silk Road deck, or more simply, just a Silk Road / Estate, or a pair of action cards from one action card for my Vineyards deck?
- Will adding value to the deck ($X of cards becomes $2X of cards) serve me well in helping me win the game? Are there any tricks that will add even more value? (like on gain effects, like Border Village or IGG) Or any ways to strongly utilise that $ value? (like Apprentice, or Bishop)
- Where are the "stop" points where Develop ceases to give me a +$1 value card? (for many games, this will be at Gold, with no $7 card to go to)

For Chancellor, I think the following:
- Are there any other terminals I want more, that Chancellor might clash with?
- Are there any simple combo tricks, like Stash, or any complex tricks, like Golem/Counting House/Chancellor/Worker's Village in a Colony Game?
- Does the fast movement to reshuffle benefit me? (like with Familiar, or with any other action where there's a big advantage to playing it fast and first)

Thats just my thought process with these cards.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #119 on: May 28, 2012, 11:53:26 am »
0

Just want to remind everyone that the voting for these lists were done when Hinterlands hadn't been out for very long, so there are probably a lot of semi-random misrankings of Hinterlands cards. I think if voting were to be done again, Oracle wouldn't be nearly so low, though Develop would still hang around the bottom.

Oracle had a pretty huge variance in rankings. If you look at the extreme votes for Oracle, the top 3 are rank 9-11, which is close to where it should be, imo (I have it at 10), but there are 3 last-place votes. This is likely the result of people not having played with it yet, and arbitrarily putting it last.

Develop, on the other hand, people continue to argue should be last. I personally think Develop should be above Chancellor, because it's more often actually a dominant card. But it still needs a lot of things right about the Kingdom to actually be that good, since it kind of depends on having worthwhile cards at a lot of different price points. So it's hard to rank it too far from the bottom.

Yeah, that's definitely true. Many Hinterlands cards had still high variance and some cards would now be ranked higher and other cards much lower.
These lists were compiled at the end of 2011 and I wanted to start the next list either a few months after Dark Ages or at the end of 2012.

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #120 on: May 28, 2012, 12:28:31 pm »
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Personally, I'd be interested in seeing a new list fairly soon: All the cards now out we're familiar with, and with Dark Ages being so big and apparently likely complex, it'd take a while for that to be well understood. I think now might be a good time to see what people think.

Incidentally, have you still got the fun rankings, Qvist?
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #121 on: May 28, 2012, 01:10:57 pm »
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I am really disagree with develop and black market!
You need in 90% of games buy black market because they are almost cards like goons, wharf, kc , mountebank.... (for me Black market is in the top 8)
And develop, ok it s often a bad card... but when they are cost 7 cards for example, it become really strong and even without it s not so bad to trash a cost 4 cards for a wharf village(on the deck!)...
And moreover cards like chancellor or fortune teller are so useless, i don t understand how they can be behind develop...

Black Market is so low because
1) It makes games annoying
2) It takes way too long to get the Black Marketed cards when you should be focusing on cards already on the table
3) Certain cards pop up in the Black Market which are useless by themselves, like Treasure Map or Fool's Gold
1) Why is JoaT number 1?  Shouldn't it be last? (I kid but this is not a reason to list a card lower)
2) Right... if you are playing BM.  If you are making a decent engine (but not a superior engine), its not nearly as slow as BM games.
3) Why so negative, there are so many great cards where getting the only one gets a huge competitive advantage.  That's the strength of BM.  Does it provide HUGE variance, yes.  Does that make it bad, no. 

BM just wants to be surrounded by +actions so that BM and its terminals from BM can be played.  That's a decent amount of boards where it can shine.  Add on little tricks here and there, its a respectable card.  I'm not as skilled to say it should be played on 90% of boards, but any with a slight resemblance of a mediocre engine available and I'm in.  (This of course also likely means there is no power card available either).   
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #122 on: May 28, 2012, 01:24:33 pm »
0

Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.

You must not be... familiar with opening Chancellor/Potion on certain Curse boards.  8)
??? What does this do? Provide +$2? Ensure you could play your Familiar more often? Is that not possible with Sea Hag and YW also?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh, now I see your point.

Chancellor is actually one of the very best Silver-equivalents on Familiar boards, since the increased cycling can be really helpful in getting those Curses out quicker, and you're not worried about terminal clashes since Familiar is a cantrip.  Similarly, Chancellor is a good opener for IGG rushes, though the ranks of IGG-helpers are a good deal larger (esp. since they allow for $4 terminal Silvers).  I'll also open Chancellor in Mountebank games, since the fact that Mountebank doesn't give +Card, and does give Copper, mitigates the possibility of terminal clashes.  But terminal clashes are too likely, and too damaging when they happen, to really use Chancellor in Hag/YW/Witch games.

Familiar is one of the three best cards for Chancellor, along with Stash (obviously) and Inn (play Chancellor, buy Inn, set up great Action chain for next turn no matter how bloated your deck is).  Beyond those three cards it's something to buy and maybe get a little advantage over Silver when either there's a dearth of terminals, or a glut of +Actions.  Yeah, I know it can theoretically be great with Counting House, but good luck actually setting that up.
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O

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #123 on: May 28, 2012, 03:19:45 pm »
0

I think Oracle as P1 probably beats chancellor for familiar games.

Chancellor: Makes a big difference in Stash games, a moderate difference in IGG/Familiar games, a small difference in most other games.

Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.

Yea, I'll take develop.



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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $3 cards
« Reply #124 on: May 28, 2012, 08:10:17 pm »
0

Oracle and Black Market below Loan?  o.0

Loan brings new meaning to failing the Silver test!


I agree with O about Develop.  I ended up in this bizarre game where both players had thick decks and Apothecaries and Developing into Coppersmith+something else was like a really awesome way to guarantee Provinces (maybe it was Colonies) next turn.  I swear it was real.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 08:12:26 pm by popsofctown »
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