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spiralstaircase

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Expansion creation advice
« on: January 25, 2016, 03:55:07 am »
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For creating individual cards, we have rinkworks' amazing Fan Card Creation Guide.  Increasingly, though, people are assembling their fan cards into expansions.  Those who've done this - what advice would you give on how to put together an expansion?  Those who haven't - what do you like to see?

Some possible questions to answer:
  • What balance of card costs and types do you put in?
  • What does each set need?  Should there be at least one trasher, one gainer, one sifter etc...
  • How many themes should an expansion have?  How many cards make up a theme?  Are off-theme cards OK?
  • To what extent is it OK to use mechanics from other expansions?  What about completely new mechanics?
  • How do these things change in large vs. small expansions?
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Davio

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Re: Expansion creation advice
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2016, 04:22:42 am »
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Try come up with a clever mechanic, every set introduces something new:

Intrigue: Dual-type cards
Seaside: Duration
Prosperity: Colony and VP tokens
Alchemy: Potion
Cornucopia: Tournament
Hinterlands: non-Action Reaction
Dark Ages: Looter, Shelters, Knights, on-trash
Guilds: Coin tokens
Adventures: Events, Travellers, Reserve

Most sets have a balance of cards which makes it better to play with only cards from that set.
You can use mechanics from other expansions, Adventures does that.
Off-theme cards are perfectly fine, every set has one.

Small expansions have less room so you won't likely include something like Hermit-Madman.
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ipofanes

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Re: Expansion creation advice
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2016, 11:06:26 am »
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Try come up with a clever mechanic, every set introduces something new:

Cornucopia: Tournament


... and variety of cards counts.
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Marcory

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Re: Expansion creation advice
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2016, 11:14:30 am »
+1

Try come up with a clever mechanic, every set introduces something new:

Intrigue: Dual-type cards
Seaside: Duration
Prosperity: Colony and VP tokens
Alchemy: Potion
Cornucopia: Tournament
Hinterlands: non-Action Reaction
Dark Ages: Looter, Shelters, Knights, on-trash
Guilds: Coin tokens
Adventures: Events, Travellers, Reserve

Most sets have a balance of cards which makes it better to play with only cards from that set.
You can use mechanics from other expansions, Adventures does that.
Off-theme cards are perfectly fine, every set has one.

Small expansions have less room so you won't likely include something like Hermit-Madman.

Other mechanics introduced:

Intrigue: Cards with choices (forced like Tribute, or optional like Torturer, Ironworks, etc)
Seaside: 'Set Aside', including play mats
Prosperity: Kingdom Treasure cards, cards costing more than $6
Cornucopia: Cards that care about the variety in your deck
Hinterlands: On-gain and on-buy
Dark Ages: Cards that turn into other cards (Hermit/Madman), cards that care about what's in the trash (Forager/Rogue/ Graverobber)
Guilds: Overpay
Adventures: Durations that last more than one extra turn, Tokens
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 11:18:08 am by Marcory »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Expansion creation advice
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2016, 12:03:06 pm »
+6

• What balance of card costs and types do you put in?
Donald has addressed card type balance in the interview thread, I think. Let me find the quote.

These days for ~25 cards by default I want about 2.5-3 villages (counting thrones or expensive ones for less), 2-3 +buys, 2-4 remodels/vaults (trash or discard for benefit), 4 attacks (down from 5), 2-3 non-attack player interaction (up from 1), 1 victory card, 1 treasure, 6-7 cards with +1 card +1 action (up from 5, counting villages but not thrones), and a bunch of $5's.

OK now here's my personal take on that list.

• For better or worse, most Dominion sets average more than 2-3 +Buys. It's more like 3-4. If you have a set of about 25 cards and only 2 have +Buy, hopefully your set has a lot of gainers.
• I agree that one pure Victory card is the perfect number. You could totally have more if the rest of them are also Actions or Treasures. But any new hybrid Victory card should have a pretty good reason to have VP attached to it. Having VP just tacked onto another card was cool once (in Intrigue), but now it's been done.
• It's totally fine to have a bunch of Kingdom Treasure cards. It's important to have mostly Actions, since they can be stronger for their cost, but if your set has a few interesting Treasures, great.
• I recommend shooting for 40% of your set's cards costing $5 (unless your set has a major wonky-cost theme, like Alchemy). Realistically you'll probably end up with fewer $5 cards, but 2 out of every 5 cards costing $5 is a good goal.

• What does each set need?  Should there be at least one trasher, one gainer, one sifter etc...

This is sort of related to the previous question. It would be weird to have a set with zero trashers. I think it's important to have some way to deal with junk cards, and that usually means having enough trashers/sifters. Your set can be light on one and heavy on the other. Hinterlands leans toward sifting, whereas Dark Ages leans toward trashing. But they both have some of each.

I wouldn't even try to create a set of interesting cards without a gainer. A lot of cards in Dominion gain other cards, even if it's just "Gain a Silver".

• How many themes should an expansion have?  How many cards make up a theme?  Are off-theme cards OK?

Some "themes" in official Dominion expansions are just 3 cards. Like Looters, Spoils-gainers, VP token cards, etc. I would hesitate to call something a theme if it was used by fewer than 3 cards. But really it's all just semantics. It's good to have at least one theme, and it's good if at least one of your themes has at least 7-8 cards. It's totally OK to have off-theme cards.

• To what extent is it OK to use mechanics from other expansions?  What about completely new mechanics?

Some mechanics you can just put wherever, like choose-one and on-gain abilities. Beyond that, there's no consensus in this community. Lots of people are willing to add e.g. one Potion-cost card or one VP-chip card to an expansion. I think that if you're going to require components like that, you should have enough cards to justify requiring them.

• How do these things change in large vs. small expansions?

Small expansions only exist because the German publisher at the time (Hans im Glück) wanted them. You can still totally make one if you don't have enough card ideas for a full set, though. Mostly you just want to keep the ratios of cards the same. About 10%-15% villages, 35%-40% $5 costers, 15% attacks, etc.
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tristan

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Re: Expansion creation advice
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2016, 12:42:25 pm »
0

For creating individual cards, we have rinkworks' amazing Fan Card Creation Guide.  Increasingly, though, people are assembling their fan cards into expansions.  Those who've done this - what advice would you give on how to put together an expansion?  Those who haven't - what do you like to see?
Just try to make sure to have some villages, some trashers, some junkers and some cards that draw (sifter, terminal draw, non-terminal draw, whatever) in it, i.e. to have roughly the same ratio of basic cards which the official sets have.
If you have a lot of official sets and mix all cards together the above advice is not that relevant and you can just pick whatever cards you like most.
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461.weavile

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Re: Expansion creation advice
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 06:52:49 pm »
+1

I actually have a chart that I marginally used to estimate how much of each thing I needed. Except for Potion-cost cards, I tried to keep the cost ratios the same, the type ratios the same, and effect ratios the same - meaning Villages, terminals, disappearing money, junkers. It's obviously not necessary, but I did it just to keep the game similar to it's intended variance, and I can share it if you feel like using it.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Expansion creation advice
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2016, 02:26:30 am »
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It's obviously not necessary, but I did it just to keep the game similar to it's intended variance, and I can share it if you feel like using it.

If you don't mind, that would be great.
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Asper

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Re: Expansion creation advice
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2016, 09:26:41 am »
+2

Real sets usually have 1 or two mayor themes, sometimes a third. Seaside for example has Durations, Mats and tokens, but all go back to the theme of affecting later turns. Adventures has the same theme, but implements it with a more diverse pool of mechanics. It also introduces Events, something completely different.

What you'll want is your themes to be noticeable. This means: Rather have off-theme cards (every set has them) than trying to make a theme out of everything. Revealing stuff, naming stuff, those are invisible themes. You'll have a hard time making a set from those.

What you'll also want are player interaction cards. Don't make all of them attacks, although having 2 or 3 attacks is usually good.

You will see sets usually have more $5s than any other cost.

About expansion mechanics, it depends. My "set" for example is a Treasure Chest. You could say that's its theme. If you only use one or two old mechanics, try to find more than one or two cards that use it. 3 is fine, see Ruins or VP tokens. Also, obviously i'm not following my own suggestions, but then again i don't usually think of my cards as a "set".
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 09:28:02 am by Asper »
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