Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $2 cards  (Read 11192 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2231
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +3546
    • View Profile
The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $2 cards
« on: January 03, 2012, 03:12:50 am »
+10

Exactly 30 lists were sent in. Thanks for all your contribution.
You were waiting for the results, so let's get started. Feel free to comment.
I'm sorry for mistakes with the English language as I'm no native speaker.
And please let me know if you like my comments and the current format.

The Best $2 Cards
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#16 Duchess (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 15.05 / Median: 16 / Mode: 16 / Standard Deviation: 1.5
Highest Rank(s): #11 (2x), #12 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #16 (17x)

Duchess is the worst $2 card. It was close, but more than a half of all players ranked it last, so it deserved its spot. Why is it so bad?

It's a terminal silver with a spy-effect that has even a benefit for your opponents. Yeah, it's even so bad that it needs a clause to get it for free when you buy a Duchy.
And mostly that are the only cases you want a Duchess. Rarely you want to spend $2 to buy one. Once in a while you want it for free, especially when you are trying to make a "green card rush" with Duke or Gardens and want to maintain the buying power and emptying the third pile as fast as possible.
#15 Secret Chamber (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 14.59 / Median: 14.5 / Mode: 15 / Standard Deviation: 1.4
Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #12 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #16 (6x)

The consensus was even higher with Secret Chamber. Only 3 other cards have a lower standard deviation.
Also no-one has put it higher than #11, but it got not as many last places as Duchess. Why is it so bad?

The action part seems not so bad. You can discard cards for money and in decks with many victory cards or curses it's guaranteed $4. But first: What do you want to buy with $4? As a opener it's bad, because mostly you want to get to $5 and later in the game you need $5 too to get at least a Duchy. So, basically it's a very bad Vault and you better buy a Silver. But there are rare cases, especially you can use it when you need virtual money like in Tactician turns or when you want to buy Grand Markets. It's reaction part is really bad. It has nearly no effect against the best attacks: Cursers and Handsize-Reducers, but you can use it against cards that mess up the top of your deck or trash cards from your deck, like Thief or Pirate Ship.
But Thief is already bad. Why buy a reaction card against Thief?
#14 Pearl Diver (Seaside) Weighted Average: 13.66 / Median: 14 / Mode: 15 / Standard Deviation: 1.5
Highest Rank(s): #10 (1x), #11 (1x), #12 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #16 (3x)

No surprise here. Everyone agrees here too. Pearl Diver has a sure spot on #14 with enough space to #15 and #13. It's the first card which reached #10, but most players put it on #14 or #15. Why is it so bad?

Pearl Diver mostly don't hurt in your deck as it is a cantrip. So, if you got $2 early and you don't want to buy an Estate, you can buy a Pearl Diver. Buying too much Duchesses or Secret Chambers hurts much more than too many Pearl Divers. But the benefit of Pearl Diver is lower than those cards. It's only use is to minimize draw luck a little bit and to let cards shine which interact with the top card of your deck (Native Village comes into my mind). OK, I admit, since Cornucopia it got a little boost as it can add more diversity into your deck and cards like Menagerie, Fairgrounds, Horn of Plenty can profit from it. But I think you all agree when I say it's weaker than Duchess and Secret Chamber per se, but it hurts less.
#13 Herbalist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 12.71 / Median: 13 / Mode: 13 / Standard Deviation: 1.1
Highest Rank(s): #11 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #14 (8x), #15 (1x)

Even less surprise here. It's the card with the third least deviation. High consensus here, as no-one ranked it higher than #11 (even Pearl Diver managed that), but no-one put it in the last place too. If I know correctly it's a card that's widely hated, especially because it's the only non-potion-related card in the Alchemy set (Apprentice references Potion at least) and its bad too. Many liked to see it replaced with another potion-cost card. But I think it's bad reputation is only half-justified. Yeah, it's a terminal copper. How bad is that! So, mostly it hurts. Bad "scheming" your treasures is really nice. In the beginning you can use your newly buyed Gold twice if you have the luck to draw it with Herbalist. And even putting back a Silver is not so bad in the beginning. But especially if you're going for Potion (because of that it's in Alchemy) you can use it twice early on. The most important combo might be Alchemist+Herbalist. And - mostly forgotten - it's one of three $2 cards that gives the important +Buy and it's the only one which gives the +Buy without taking a disadvantage (either discarding one card or forfeiting an option). But if you have no +Actions this card is mostly not worth buying.
#12 Moat (Base) Weighted Average: 12.24 / Median: 12 / Mode: 12 / Standard Deviation: 2.1
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #9 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #15 (2x), #16 (2x)

So, now the first card with higher deviation. The first time we have a card which reaches a single-digit rank, but at the same time reaches the last place two times. What could be the reason?

Moat is very situational. It highly depends on the cards on the board and - more important - on the number of players. If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat might be a good buy. It can prevent getting 3 coppers and 3 curses in one turn. But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers or Library/Watchtower/Menagerie agains hand-size-reducing is mostly the better alternative. Even worse, if there's no attack card on the board, +2 cards with no other benefit is so weak, because that means a raw benefit of +1 card . Maybe only if your going for Big Money with bad other cards and you're getting unlucky and hit $2 early, this might be worth considering.
#11 Embargo (Seaside) Weighted Average: 10.23 / Median: 10 / Mode: 11 / Standard Deviation: 2.2
Highest Rank(s): #7 (2x), #8 (5x) / Lowest Rank(s): #14 (2x), #16 (1x)

We now make a big step of 2 points in the weighted average and are getting to the first middle-ranked $2 card. The middle-ranked cards are hard to rank, maybe because of that the deviation is higher. Every middle-ranked card has advantages and disadvantages. What thoughts might let you put that card into the 11th place?

First, it's a terminal silver. Basically that's bad. But it's a one-shot. So if you get unlucky and hit $2 early you can buy it without much thinking as it only interferes once. But Embargo can be a game-changer, especially if you and your opponent(s) are taking different strategies. And it really shines if your opponent buys a Potion and you decide not to go for Potion. Just embargo the Potion-cost card and you are turns ahead. So, it's nearly never bad, but only shines situation-wise. And it might be the first card in the list that's worth to play with King's Court.
#10 Cellar (Base) Weighted Average: 9.31 / Median: 9.5 / Mode: 11 / Standard Deviation: 2.7
Highest Rank(s): #4 (2x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #13 (3x)

Now we get to the card with the second highest deviation. It started already heavy discussion in the worst $2 card thread. There seem to be Cellar Lovers (like me ;) ) and haters (and those who just compare it to Warehouse :P ) It mostly ranked on #11 (7x) but got higher rankings more often than lower rankings. Why so different opinions?

There are many cards that take profit from bad cards like Estate or Curses. Secret Chamber fails - as mentioned earlier - by just getting $1 per card. Cellar let you discard them and get you get your good cards in hand. Of course Warehouse is better in most cases as it let you draw your cards before discarding. If you want compare Cellar with another $2 card, Crossroads comes into your mind. Crossroads also lets you draw more cards for useless cards. But it is limited to green cards, so you get no benefit for Curses and Coppers. But you don't have to discard them and it gives you +3 Actions the first time. So it highly depends which card is better. In cursing games Cellar's great. And of course with Tunnel.
#9 Native Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 8.32 / Median: 8 / Mode: 8 / Standard Deviation: 2.4
Highest Rank(s): #5 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #12 (3x), #13 (2x)

Native Village is also a mediocre $2 card with relative high deviation. It's the worst $2 village (with Hamlet and Crossroads to come). Why?

The problem with NV is that you get no immediate benefit beside the +2 Actions. If you use it as a cheap village you only draw 1/2 card per play. But you can use it either as a pseudo-trasher by putting bad cards on the mat. But it fails that you cannot choose the card to put there. You need assistence with cards like Spy, Pearl Diver, Wishing Well or Lookout. The best use may be to use it for mega-turn with a lot of buys. NV+Bridge is the most effective combo.
#8 Pawn (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 7.62 / Median: 8 / Mode: 9 / Standard Deviation: 1.7
Highest Rank(s): #5 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #10 (5x)

No big surprise here. Pawn is THE mediocre card in my opinion. Thus the middle rank with little deviation. Pawn is the first card of 4 cards which are very close together and it lost the race for #5.

Pawn is bad if you don't know how to play it and simply use it as a cantrip. But it can be very useful as a cheap source of +Buy and in the beginning it's mostly a cheap Silver if you use it for card + money. It's flexibility makes it good. But it's not great. It can win your game because you picked it up for +Buy but normally it's no game-changer. And if you use it for card + action it at least doesn't hurt. But nothing is more frustrating if you use if for card + money and you draw a Pawn dead.
#7 Crossroads (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 7.36 / Median: 7 / Mode: 7 / Standard Deviation: 2.4
Highest Rank(s): #3 (2x), #4 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #11 (3x), #12 (1x)

Crossroads is the third card of four cards in the race for #5. It's also the first card which managed to get in the Top 3. But there seem many Crossroads haters too. So, it's high deviation was the problem not getting in the Top 5.

Crossroads is the only card with +3 Actions which can be very useful. The problem is the luck factor you need with that card. If you buy it early and get a hand with 4 coppers, you wish it were a Silver or one of the above $2 cards. Later you draw it with 3 Estates and you draw now your Vault and you can buy a Province for sure. It combos well with cards that take advantage of big hands. So Crossroads + Vault is very good and of course it's great with your good $5 attacks, especially setting up a Torturer chain. IMO Crossroads is never a reason to go green earlier, but it helps a lot in the end game and can assure you won't lose your buying power. As mentioned above another problem is that it only synergizes with victory cards not with curses what makes it a worse alternative to Cellar in cursing games.
#6 Haven (Seaside) Weighted Average: 6.78 / Median: 6 / Mode: 6 / Standard Deviation: 2.2
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #4 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #10 (2x), #13 (1x)

Haven lost the battle for #5 very close. 7 times it was ranked #5 and another 7 times #6, so it was clear it was a close call between those two ranks. What makes it above-average?

At first Haven is a cantrip and never hurts. And it's ability to minimize draw luck is great. You have $11, just set a Gold aside. You have $7, just set a Copper aside. Two terminal actions in hand, no problem. You get your maximum out of your money and your actions. It's a very good card, but no game-changer what may be the reason why it didn't get into the Top 5. It supports every strategy but isn't a strategy on its own.
#5 Fool's Gold (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 6.52 / Median: 5.5 / Mode: 5 / Standard Deviation: 3.2
Highest Rank(s): #2 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #10 (3x), #11 (1x), #16 (1x)

Welcome in the Top 5. It was very close, but FG managed to beat Haven. Also, welcome to the first card that got #2, and that even 3 times. But it also got last one time. So it's the card with the by far highest deviation. What may be the reason?

Going for Fool's Gold is its on strategy what Haven isn't. If you buy just one or two, it mostly isn't worth it, because who wants a Copper what gets into Gold in the late game when you can't catch up anymore? You want FG in masses, in high density. With a card with money and +Buy and/or a card drawer it's really great and you have to go for it. Goal: Get as many FGs as you can. Margrave + FG or Nomad Camp + FG are good combos, but you can get even higher density with Mint. Mint + FG is the second best opening on Councilroom. That may reason enough that FG deserves to be in the Top 5. You really have to analyze when to buy it. On some boards it's the worst card on other boards the best card. Your rankings proved that.
#4 Lighthouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 4.48 / Median: 4 / Mode: 4 / Standard Deviation: 2.0
Highest Rank(s): #2 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #9 (1x), #10 (1x)

Let's make a huge step and let's get to the 4 good $2 cards. Lighthouse has the same high rankings as Fool's Gold, but is consistent. Its low ranks are rare and it got #4 11 times.

With Lighthouse on the board, you really need to evualate if it's worth buying a attacking engine. It may the best Reaction that isn't even blue. Why? Most important: It's non-terminal. Unlike Moat, it cannot collide with other terminal actions or another copy. Second: It gives you money. It may look like a Copper, but after you play it, you are safe and get even another $1 the next turn. So on boards with heavy attacks, it's superior to Silver. You only have to make sure you play one Lighthouse each turn.
#3 Courtyard (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 3.46 / Median: 3 / Mode: 3 / Standard Deviation: 2.3
Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #2 (8x) / Lowest Rank(s): #8 (2x), #10 (1x)

Courtyard is the first card which reached the top spot. 10 times it got ranked on #3, so no surprise that it ranked here.

Courtyard is really great with Big Money. Like Haven it minimizes shuffle luck by putting a card on top of the deck, so if you have too much money or a second Courtyard in hand, that's no problem. But you don't get a 6 card hand like with Haven. But the card draw makes it really nice with Big Money and very strong for a $2 card. It's not much worse than Smithy which costs $4. And Smithy itself is by far not the worst $4 card. Its concept is simple but very effective. Don't underestimate the power of Courtyard.
#2 Hamlet (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 2.52 / Median: 2 / Mode: 2 / Standard Deviation: 0.9
Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #2 (16x) / Lowest Rank(s): #4 (5x), #5 (1x)

No surprises in the top 2 spots. Hamlet has the second lowest deviation and deserves the #2 spot without doubt. It even got #1 once. What makes it so great?

It's one of the best villages around. Yes, you have to discard one card as "payment" for the second action, but if you really need the +2 Actions there's no problem for you to discard that Copper. And most important: Most engines lack +Buy. Hamlet may provide that for another card as payment. Even if you don't need the +2 Actions for your strategy, a non-terminal card with +Buy is always worth to buy. So, if you use both options, you have a Worker's Village for $2, but you have to "pay" for that options. And when you got your first Hamlet you can easily buy more Hamlets with that additional +Buy.
#1 Chapel (Base) Weighted Average: 1.18 / Median: 1 / Mode: 1 / Standard Deviation: 0.5
Highest Rank(s): #1 (28x) / Lowest Rank(s): #3 (2x)

Really, that's no surprise. A nearly perfect score. Only two times it didn't get first. Is it really that great?

So, what's up with that uber-card? Even Donald X. admitted that Chapel is a little bit overpowered and he won't release another card so strong like Chapel in future expansions. Trashing is important in the beginning, and the cost of Chapel enables everyone to open with Chapel. As Councilroom shows it's veeery strong, but only if you open with it. You even want to start Chapel/Silver with 3/4. It's not every time a must-buy but in most occasions it is. It's so strong that you already can say you lost if your opponent opened Witch/Chapel and you have a 4/3 start. Mountebank/Chapel is the best opening on Councilroom and Govenor/Chapel, Tournament/Chapel and Witch/Chapel are currently on 4-6. So its power is undeniable.

As a side note: Cards that are strong openers and bad in late game seem very difficult to rank for all of you. Those cards - as you will see - mostly have high deviation. But Chapel is such a game-changer that it is #1 without doubt.

To the $3 cards
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 08:13:41 am by Qvist »
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2074
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 04:08:46 am »
0

Thanks for compiling this.

The overall order of the $2 cards has no real surprises, but I guess it's been discussed to death in another thread. The surprising thing in my eyes is that three people ranked each of lighthouse and fool's gold #2, and that 3 people ranked courtyard #8 or worse.
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1492
  • Respect: +661
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 04:44:27 am »
0

Okay, so I've already put my hands up that I ranked Chapel number 3 (and stand by that). Who's the other guy?

Edit: Also, nice list. I'm pretty happy with how it's turned out. My only concern is that Fool's Gold is as high as it is, but I'm sure that'll be down to the people in the simulating board who have convinced themselves it's an unbeatable power card and have grown blind to the word "Fool's" in it's name. Also, it certainly is possible to draw Lighthouse dead, but that's the only adjustment I'd make to the text.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 04:46:56 am by Thisisnotasmile »
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 04:50:49 am »
0

Okay, there are 3 cards that surprised me:

#16 Duchess (my rank: #12): Duchess is a card that comes free. It has a cost, but you cannot rate it as a standard $2! In the endgame you might find yourself wondering: "Should I buy Duchy or Gold?" When Duchess are out, you don't hesitate at all and grab it, because you just got (almost) Duchy+Silver, which is not bad at all! When you start greening too early, you might get in lots of troubles and Duchess might save your ass (also the ability is good when you have lots of green). That is why in my list I rank it higher than Secret Chamber, Pearl Diver, Herbalist and...

#10 Cellar (my rank: #13): This is a bad card. You discarded your Coppers? Well here, have some Estates as your reward. It is one of 4 cards (with the 3 mentioned above) that I would buy only with $2. Duchess is bonus to Duchy and the rest might be a good idea with $3. But you have $3 and considering Cellar? Take a Silver, goddammit! (of course it makes nice combo with Tactician and Vault, but that won't save it).

#4 Lighthouse (my rank: #8): This is not a bad card, but it is not superb either. It saves you from attacks, that is true, but it does not help you GET the attack as good as Silver does and well, that is a bit problem because if you defend to Witch, it means you will get the Curses later. If you play Witch too, that means that you will get less of them. That's the difference. Also important thing - duration cards miss reshuffle more often than other cards, many people forget about this...

TINAS - And why did you do that?  :)
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1492
  • Respect: +661
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 05:09:40 am »
0

I did that because I honestly believe it's a worse card than Hamlet and (you're going to like this one...) Lighthouse. Back when there was just the base set, or Base and Intrigue or maybe even a couple more sets too, yeah, it was the number 1 $2-cost card. No doubt about it. But as more and more expansions are released (and even more so with Hinterlands than any other), the power of heavy early trashing has diminished, and thus so has the power of Chapel. Don't get me wrong, I believe it is a strong card (I ranked it as the 3rd best $2-cost card afterall), it's just not the staple opener that it once was.

My Councilroom page shows that I buy or gain at least one copy of Chapel in only 63% of games, compared to the general population's average of 78.5%. I also have positive (albeit small) Effect With and Without the card.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1476
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 05:23:43 am »
0

Edit: Also, nice list. I'm pretty happy with how it's turned out. My only concern is that Fool's Gold is as high as it is, but I'm sure that'll be down to the people in the simulating board who have convinced themselves it's an unbeatable power card and have grown blind to the word "Fool's" in it's name. Also, it certainly is possible to draw Lighthouse dead, but that's the only adjustment I'd make to the text.

I did rank nothing, but I don't think we think it's an unbeatable power card. It's just incredible good in BM and BM-X, where the BigMoney is exactly Fool's Gold. I would have ranked Courtyard high, exactly for BM-Courtyard(-X), not for +Action/+Card. And with this thoughts I would have ranked FG over CY.

@Lighthouse. The point with Lighthouse is that in many decks (Village-Torturer, Minion) 2 Lighthouses can prevent you entirely from being attacked, because it matters which cards you will see during your whole turn, not only which cards are in your hand when you're attacked, like in Moat. There are situations where that it not a great difference, and in this cases Lighthouse is about at bad as Moat, but there are Situations where you draw you're whole deck anyway, and than you really like the Lighthouses.

@Cellar. There are also the times where I love risking to discard my Coppers for the Estates, if therefore I can play my Mountebank more often. But honestly that mostly requires a 5/2-start.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 05:26:01 am by DStu »
Logged

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 982
  • Respect: +931
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 06:43:52 am »
0

A slight quarrel - "Haven can't hurt you"

Haven draws one card, and then you must set aside Haven and one card. So in the absence of other drawing, it does reduce your handsize by one (in exchange for increasing it next turn). Of course, you're no worse off than before you drew Haven per se, but if you need everything in your hand and you like what you draw, it can cause some irritating moments.
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1083
  • Respect: +721
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 07:59:13 am »
0

I'm surprised to see Courtyard so high, and Haven so low.

Also, Crossroad is sometimes SO powerful. I remember nice games with crossroads, like Crossroads + baron, or crossroads + Trade route + silk road (trashing the coppers with trade route and buying others with the +buy). Crossroad is one of the best I think, even if sometimes crossroad is useless (in a game with others villages and trashed estates).
Logged

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2638
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3111
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 10:10:36 am »
0

Thanks for compiling this.

The overall order of the $2 cards has no real surprises, but I guess it's been discussed to death in another thread. The surprising thing in my eyes is that three people ranked each of lighthouse and fool's gold #2, and that 3 people ranked courtyard #8 or worse.

I'm going to admit to both of those (edit: Fool's Gold and Courtyard, I put Lighthouse 4th (edit 2: Actually, I put Courtyard 7th. I thought it was 8th. Guess I can't count)). Courtyard is a card which, I'll be honest, I've rarely actually used, and done well as a result. According to my Council Room page, I've only gained it in 25% of games it's been available, and my win rate given available is 1.65 (1.73 with, 1.62 without). So it's always felt a bit weak to me. But I've only got 43 games with it, so perhaps it's just that I've never really had good boards for it. I'm warming up to the idea of it being a good card, but currently, it still doesn't feel that good to me.

As for Fool's Gold, I guess it's the opposite. My Council Room log doesn't seem that accurate since I remember seeing it a fair bit more than it says there, but perhaps that's just games in person. But from what I have seen, when it's good (which is quite often), it's incredibly good. In retrospect, I probably did overrate it a little, but I would definitely still put it in the top 5.

Finally, I think this ought to really help me improve my analysis of various cards. Looking at this, it seems I underrate Courtyard, Moat and Crossroads, but overrate Pawn and Fool's Gold.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 10:15:49 am by Tables »
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +435
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 10:18:23 am »
0

This is a quite reasonable list!  Wisdom of crowds, etc.

Swap Pawn (incredibly useful in many engines as disappearing cash or +Buy when you need it) and Fool's Gold (better than I first thought, but still quite inflexible, requiring both a rush strategy and a Treasure-favoring setup), and you have a list that I'd be hard pressed to quibble with much.  (Well, okay, I had Moat lower as well.)
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7540
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +8334
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2012, 11:05:19 am »
0

You can't King's Court an Embargo...  just saying.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1476
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 11:08:40 am »
+1

You can't King's Court an Embargo...  just saying.
Of course I can...
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1492
  • Respect: +661
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 11:11:38 am »
+1

You can't King's Court an Embargo...  just saying.
Of course I can...

And you even get it's full benefit three times, as opposed to the also false statement "You can't King's Court a Goons" which while untrue, has an inkling of fact in it (in that you can't get the main benefit three times).
Logged

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2638
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3111
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 11:13:54 am »
0

You can't King's Court an Embargo...  just saying.
Of course I can...

And you even get it's full benefit three times, as opposed to the also false statement "You can't King's Court a Goons" which while untrue, has an inkling of fact in it (in that you can't get the main benefit three times).

*sigh*

The main benefit of Embargo is that you get to trash a bad card. That bit you can only do once. Obviously.
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2501
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3114
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 12:16:08 pm »
0

Thanks for putting this together, Qvist!

This is a pretty good list. I still say Secret Chamber is worse than Duchess, but they're so close it doesn't really matter. I would also switch Embargo and Cellar. Embargo can actually effect the strategic landscape of a game, whereas Cellar is inessential at best.

Fools Gold at 5 surprised me. Lot of people had a bad experience, I take it?
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4334
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2012, 12:25:29 pm »
0

I'd like to point out that if you're using Native Village for 1/2 a card, you're almost surely using it wrong by giving yourself some pretty decent card disadvantage.

Eistee

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
  • Respect: +45
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2012, 01:25:18 pm »
0

To everybody who doesn't get it: You do get the whole Embargo effect three times when you King's Court it because it is missing the "If you do". For example, a King's Courted Mining Village can't give you +6$, since you can't trash it if you already trashed it, so "you don't".
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 01:30:08 pm by Eistee »
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4334
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 02:58:59 pm »
0

Actually, using trashers to combat cursing is generally a losing proposition...

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7540
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +8334
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 03:17:46 pm »
0

You can't King's Court an Embargo...  just saying.
You can. Just like Feast.

I see.  I re-read the rules for Base and Intrigue.  Somehow this doesn't seem entirely consistent with other mechanics in the game...
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Elyv

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
  • Respect: +14
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 04:47:09 pm »
0

You can't King's Court an Embargo...  just saying.
You can. Just like Feast.

I see.  I re-read the rules for Base and Intrigue.  Somehow this doesn't seem entirely consistent with other mechanics in the game...
It's because Feast and Embargo don't say "if you do", the way a card like trading post or mining village does. If feast said "Trash this, if you do gain a card that cost 5 or less", it wouldn't work with KC.
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 06:11:42 pm »
0

+1 to this. I think with a wide range of people ranking this, median is the most stable statistic to look at (lessening the effect of people ranking courtyard #10...)

I totally agree.

Just add a single remake or a single moat to the witch bot. Which do you think is better? Witch+Moat beast Witch+Remake 53-43.

I don't think emulators prove anything here. Playing with trashers is very difficult, you would need to set it very good to make it optimal. I am not saying that you are not right (I think you are not, but I dont play with Moat very often, so my opinion might be pretty bad) - I am just saying emulators don't prove anything most of the times and this is one of them :)
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2074
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 06:48:03 pm »
0

^Okay, maybe remake is a big more complicated to play than moat, but I think that even if you play around with the play rules, it's not going to make it better than moat in witch+BM. Obviously simulators can't really prove anything other than what was programmed into them -- i.e. the exact strategy of one bot beats the strategy of the other. But you can get a general picture out of them. Here my point is that moat is more useful in curse+money games than most trashers. The reasoning is that you're going to end up in situations where copper is not that bad of a card, and wasting buys and turns to remove it doesn't benefit you at all. If the trasher is only benefiting you by removing curses and estates and maybe getting you an extra attack play, it's not doing enough to actually be that good of a card. On the other hand, a moat block is more likely to win you the curse split than light trashing, and while +2 Cards is not that great, it this kind of game it beats something like "trash 2 card, buy nothing".
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 06:50:08 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
Logged

toaster

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 133
  • Respect: +46
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 08:38:44 pm »
0

Hm interesting list...here's where I fall on the extremes (excluding the uninteresting cases where 10+ people had an extreme value):

Cards I rank high:
Courtyard (2nd)
Cellar (4th, I'll own it)
Pawn (5th)

Cards I rank low:
none

First of all, interesting that there are no cards that I rank significantly lower than the consensus....my bottom four match the list exactly, and then I merely switched Moat and Embargo.

In terms of the ones I like...Courtyard and Pawn are pretty easy cases.  Both Courtyard and Hamlet are excellent cards, I tend toward a big money-ish playstyle, which Courtyard excels at, while Hamlet is an excellent engine-focused card.  Pawn is easy to overbuy...nothing says poor purchase decision like using it only for +1 card/+1 action, but in many action-heavy decks it's a great card to have, not to mention a versatile source of early +buy.

And last, the Cellar.  Yes, yes....bring on the hate.  And with some justification: in many set up it's simply a poor buy.  When it's good though, it's really good.  For one thing, players often like to focus on what makes for the best sleek, well-oiled decks...but not all tableaus support such clean games.  When the going gets ugly, Cellar can be a godsend.  Plus it can make draw engines function much better in the absence of trashing.  Card draw and lack of trashing are the two situation where I look to this card, and for those roles is does quite well and a cheap cost.

edit - as an interesting side note, although I rank it poorly, Moat is in fact my personal best "win rate with" $2 card (with a purchase rate of 24%).  Rounding out my top 5 are Courtyard, Fool's Gold, Pearl Diver, and Cellar.  None of them get purchased by me more than 50% of the time.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 09:06:10 pm by toaster »
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2012, 09:32:48 pm »
0

^Okay, maybe remake is a big more complicated to play than moat, but I think that even if you play around with the play rules, it's not going to make it better than moat in witch+BM. Obviously simulators can't really prove anything other than what was programmed into them -- i.e. the exact strategy of one bot beats the strategy of the other. But you can get a general picture out of them. Here my point is that moat is more useful in curse+money games than most trashers. The reasoning is that you're going to end up in situations where copper is not that bad of a card, and wasting buys and turns to remove it doesn't benefit you at all. If the trasher is only benefiting you by removing curses and estates and maybe getting you an extra attack play, it's not doing enough to actually be that good of a card. On the other hand, a moat block is more likely to win you the curse split than light trashing, and while +2 Cards is not that great, it this kind of game it beats something like "trash 2 card, buy nothing".

I understand what you are saying. But I honestly very rarely play BMX, I always try to spice it up a bit. And I think if my primary goal is Witch and I take Remake, I will be in much better situation than with Moat. With pure BM, Moat is be better. With some other stuff, I don't think so...

Yes, in games where Copper is good, I agree Moat will be better. But IMO on most boards you are able to find a strategy that handles the Curses better then just saying "Yay! I am on the right of 6-4 Curse split and with my 4 nice Silvers I am able to grab a Duchy once in a while cause I have all these lovely Coppers!"  ;D

Also - I played some games with Chapel-GM, where I totally ignored Sea Hag or (Young) Witch and won anyway, because some curses in my deck wasn't that big of a deal - by the time I got lots of them, I got lots of green too...

And of course - If you are going to prove curse-giving attacks are not always superior strategy (and these are one of the most entertaning games), Moat is much worse, because it will only make you get the Curses later, while trasher will really get rid of them.

But I might be wrong, this is just my POV :)
Logged

olneyce

  • 2011 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
  • Respect: +210
    • View Profile
Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $4 cards Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2012, 10:28:23 pm »
0

My only outlier was Fool's Gold, which I had at #10.  Other than that, all my picks were within two, and most were within one, of the consensus.

I think the 2s are pretty easy to divide into groups, though (a clear top 4 and bottom 5 - and some pretty easy distinctions in the middle, too), so I'm really curious to see if/how things diverge more with the higher numbers.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.136 seconds with 20 queries.