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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon  (Read 2927 times)

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mameluke

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Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« on: January 22, 2016, 01:34:41 pm »
+7



Dungeon: Action - Duration
$3

+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn: +2 Cards, then discard 2 cards.

--------
Discussion:
1) The obvious comparison is with Warehouse. If you're playing either one at the start of your turn,
Warehouse: Choose your best 4 cards out of 7, continue your turn with another action.
Dungeon: Turn 1 -- Choose your best 4 cards out of 6, continue your turn with another action
              Turn 2 -- Choose your best 5 cards out of 7, continue your turn with another action

Certainly there will be few times when they're both on the same board, but Warehouse can activate 3 Tunnels in a single turn, if you're lucky enough to see them all within 7 cards. On one play, Dungeon can activate 4 Tunnels, and they can be mixed among your next 13 cards.

Warehouse isn't that great against handsize attacks because you end up with only 2 cards in hand post play. This faces a similar problem on Turn 1, but on Turn 2  you'll at least have 3 cards to start with, even after some filtering.

2) So, for duration effect, is giving up one card of cycling worth it, compared to Warehouse? For the price, I'm not sure.

3) This seems extremely good when you need to constantly collide cards: think Tournament/Province, Baron/Estate, Treasure Maps, and even Urchin/Urchin (although for $3, perhaps you're better off buying another Urchin). Engines will like this, even if there is good trashing, because of the increased reliability in setting your engine off on Turn 2.
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Marcory

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2016, 01:16:25 am »
+1

The comparison to Warehouse is apt, but so too are comparisons to Guide and Gear, also from Adventures. Guide is a better (if slower) nonterminal cycler, but Gear is better at creating the desirable collisions (like Urchin/Attack Card) that you described.

But I think Dungeon's key is that on the second turn, it doesn't reduce your handsize, so you can play multiples more freely than you can with Warehouse. This also makes it better with Throne Rooms (including Royal Carriage).

On the other hand, a duration cycling card is kind of counter-productive, given that the whole purpose of cycling is that you can play your engine cards more often. And if you're using your cycler to counter junkers when there's no trashing, Warehouse is probably more likely to give you a $5 or $8 hand than the spread-out effect of Dungeon.

That said, Dungeon does cater to certain kinds of kingdoms where Warehouse might be suboptimal, so it fills a good niche.

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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2016, 08:41:15 am »
0

I don't like Dungeon. I think it's personal preference, but I just don't like it.

Warehouse isn't a card that you just play at random. You somewhat often decide not to play it, and when you do you carefully choose when to play it to avoid bad shuffles or "wasting" good cards. The duration aspect of Dungeon puts you in a rough place pretty often where you just didn't want to play it but it's there and now you have to deal with it.

Best with light or no trashing, and with cards that need to collide or discard to work (Baron, Tournament, Tunnel)
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2016, 08:46:01 am »
+1

I like the second turn with Dungeon. It may happen at an suboptimal time, but the +card makes more than up for it in my opinion. The play on the  first turn is kind of weak, though.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2016, 04:23:21 pm »
+7

It's hard to know what to say about Dungeon that doesn't also apply to Warehouse, etc. It's nice to have another sifter in the game.
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jonts26

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2016, 10:37:14 pm »
+7

It's hard to know what to say about Dungeon that doesn't also apply to Warehouse, etc. It's nice to have another sifter in the game.

So cellar is worse because dungeon exists?
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DG

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2016, 01:51:50 pm »
+3

There is a difference between dungeon and warehouse, although it may sometimes change how many you'd buy rather than whether you'd buy them at all. Warehouse will be better with cards like advisor where you want to draw a big hand before you play the warehouse. Dungeon will be better with cards like hunting party that you want to be in hand at the start of the action phase (and you don't want many dungeons in the draw deck). Dungeon will also suit engines decks that risk failing without a good starting hand, such as festival-smithy, that will eventually draw the whole deck anyway.

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2016, 02:58:12 pm »
+11

I believe that Warehouse is generally a superior card to Dungeon for engines, because in an engine you would rather not use the sifting effect until you have to, rather than always doing it start-of-turn. I mean, you do get the offset that it doesn't cost you a card that turn, so that probably makes it slightly better for slogs and money decks. I think. It also misses shuffles a lot more often, which is a real cost.

Dingan

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2016, 01:27:25 pm »
0

My only thoughts that haven't already been mentioned:

- I feel Warehouse works slightly better with Menagerie, and maybe also Shanty Town, because (1) you have more control over when to play Warehouse, and (2) you can trigger multiple Menageries more easily when playing multiple Warehouses.

- Playing Warehouse or Dungeon on T3 would trigger a shuffle at the start of T4 (usually a good thing); Warehouse on T4 would trigger a shuffle on T4 (and miss the shuffle); Dungeon on T4 NOT trigger a shuffle on T4 (but would miss the shuffle on T5).  Not sure how much this matters, but I feel it makes Dungeon slightly better in this scenario.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 01:28:49 pm by Dingan »
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AdamH

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2016, 01:57:56 pm »
+9

I believe that Warehouse is generally a superior card to Dungeon for engines, because in an engine you would rather not use the sifting effect until you have to, rather than always doing it start-of-turn. I mean, you do get the offset that it doesn't cost you a card that turn, so that probably makes it slightly better for slogs and money decks. I think. It also misses shuffles a lot more often, which is a real cost.

I think you're mostly correct here, especially in terms of raw power; but in many engines the duration-ness of the card can save you from a stall turn, which can be game-decisive.
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Donald X.

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2016, 08:05:54 pm »
+2

This was one of the first cards in the set; a very simple duration card, for an effect that didn't have one yet. And it was always fine, though it did start out at $4.

Man what is there to say about. In all Adventures games it's great for upgrading Travellers faster. I get it a lot; obv. you can overdo it, but it's great to start a turn by improving your hand a little.
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Dingan

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2017, 02:21:14 am »
+5

They call me the necro'er, mwahahaha.

Yeah, Dungeon is WAY stronger than Warehouse. Just sayin.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2017, 07:42:39 am »
+1

I think it's good to necro those threads.

I agree with Dingan, Dungeon is atleast WAY stronger than Warehouse. Most duds happen at the start of the turn, and Warehouse doesn't help much there. (Except you're lucky and draw it at the beginning. But if that's the case, a village might have been just as good).

So in deck drawing decks that are not 100% reliable, having 2 Dungeons often makes them super reliable.

Breppert once posted a nice example of this on discord, it was something like this: You have your starting cards, 2mountebanks, 4 villages and 3 smithies (or something similar), would you rather add 4villages +4smithies or have a duration dungeon in play? (hint: dungeon is really good)
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Awaclus

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2017, 08:21:41 am »
0

Yeah, that's true. The on-play effect of Dungeon is obviously weaker than Warehouse, but it's not that much weaker actually; a lot of the time, Warehouse makes you discard something that you would have wanted to draw into, anyway. And the duration effect is way stronger than the on-play of Warehouse it's more like the on-play of Forum, and that makes a huge difference, plus it's convenient to guarantee getting the effect at the start of the turn as drsteelhammer pointed out.
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2017, 02:55:39 pm »
0

Yeah lol I was way off here. Dungeon is supremely good. A pair of Dungeons makes most any deck dramatically more reliable.

Does anyone have that link to that example post where someone demonstrates how dramatically Dungeon increases reliability? The one I think Breppert did showing it was comparable on certain boards to adding multiple Village / Draw pairs.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 04:00:24 am »
0

I'm surprised it took so long for people to realize this was better than Warehouse. I felt the first time playing it that it was better than Warehouse.
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aku_chi

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2017, 09:12:12 am »
+1

It took me a while to realize that Dungeon is significantly stronger than Warehouse.  If you only buy Dungeon when you would buy Warehouse, it's going to be about as strong.  But Dungeon has a place in thin engines in a way that Warehouse does not.  The latter realization took time.

Link to Breppert's post.
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crj

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Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Dungeon
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2017, 11:08:43 am »
0

Here because the thread was resurrected.

I see Donald X. has already mentioned what I was thinking about the synergy with Travellers. However, in the specialised case of wanting, every single turn, to draw one specific card from your deck without caring what else is in your hand, it feels like either Warehouse or Guide is significantly better.

Dungeon cycles four cards each time you play it. Guide cycles six cards each time you play it: cantrip, plus five when called.

Warehouse only cycles three cards, but you can play each Warehouse twice as often.

But for the specific purpose of cycling Travellers, I've found Cellar to be even more awesome, especially as being $2 instead of $3 makes a considerable difference on the turn you play a Peasant: you can easily pick up two of them. That's seven cards a turn of cycling!
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