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Author Topic: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout  (Read 8369 times)

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Limetime

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Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« on: January 16, 2016, 09:55:38 pm »
+5

This is the thread to talk about things other than scout. (Scout things go here)
Feel free to sway the conversation to anything Dominion strategy related(except for scout)
Let's talk about theif.
Theif is a card that is pretty bad
Questions:
What Types of games like theif?
How many times do you need to play theif for it to effectively destroy a terminal draw big money strategy?
In a thief slog with gardens when do you get theif?
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2016, 10:03:54 pm »
0

Are you kidding, Thief is like the second best card, it's only worse than tuocS.
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liopoil

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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2016, 12:13:46 am »
+1

In two-player, I think thief is actually best on niche engine boards where you can get and play a bunch of them in just 1-2 turns and it's worth doing that. You can halt the Big Money player in their tracks, so you can come back even down as much as 6-0 on provinces.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 12:24:14 am »
0

Thief can be good with TR/KC boards too. The biggest downside is helping your opponent clear out Coppers if they are building an engine.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2016, 06:05:33 pm »
+1

Pirate ship is generally better than theif right.
List five boards that are unlike each other where this is not true.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 06:10:49 pm »
+3

Any engine deck where you can trash your Coppers, but your payload still has to be treasures is made much weaker by Thief. This happens a lot in the base set, actually. I know of a few games I've played that are examples, but unfortunately Noble Brigand got to shine there, even though Thief would have done pretty much the same thing.

In 3P or more, Thief is quite ridiculous. Thief/Gardens even in a 3P game with little other support should crush most other strategies that need Treasure to do anything. In a 4P game Thief is really good even without support; unfortunately, at that point you're playing a 4P game of Dominion so you've already lost :P
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 06:11:43 pm »
+1

Not completely, best way to use thief is in 6p gardens game when everybody needs to buy thiefs. It also shines in scrying pool games, nothing is better than finding and stealing opponents potion.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2016, 06:51:00 pm »
0

Pirate ship is generally better than theif right.

Right.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2016, 08:06:17 pm »
0

Games where alt-treasures are important (potion was mentioned, but Fool's Gold is also a good example) can sometimes make thief useful, especially if there is already enough trashing (e.g. chapel) that the extra copper trashing isn't significant and the odds of whiffing are lower. And that usefulness scales with more than two players, obviously. I remember giving an opponent conniptions when he tried to use fool's gold with heavy trashing to build an engine around; my thief kept sniping his economy.

But it's very much a niche card, one of the nichest. Which is both the problem and one of the reasons it's still better than The Card Which Must Not Be Named; thief is actively bad in 95% of games, but in the remaining 5% it's golden. TCWMNBN, on the other hand, is nothing in 95% of games, and slightly better than nothing in the remaining 5%.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 01:18:48 am »
0

But it's very much a niche card, one of the nichest. Which is both the problem and one of the reasons it's still better than The Card Which Must Not Be Named; thief is actively bad in 95% of games, but in the remaining 5% it's golden. TCWMNBN, on the other hand, is nothing in 95% of games, and slightly better than nothing in the remaining 5%.

I disagree. It's bad in more than half of games. It's usually not even worth the space it takes up. It's not as bad as Thief, but it's still usually worse than not having it. Most of the time it's worth it to trash it if you somehow get one.

I have never gotten Thief to work with Gardens in 2-player, and I have tried. It's honestly worse than silver most of the time, and silver is a pretty bad card with Gardens.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 06:55:47 am »
+3

It also shines in scrying pool games, nothing is better than finding and stealing opponents potion.

Be careful, if you are trashing your opponent's Coppers for them (which is much more likely than hitting their Potion unless they are trashing the Coppers for you) then playing Thief is still worse than not playing Thief. The worst thing that can happen is that they have to re-buy their Potion, but you also spent a $4 buy on a card that you had to then draw and play. So you need to hit their Potion twice to really be getting value out of this.

I'd think that by the time you're able to play enough Thieves to have a decent chance of actually hurting your opponent this way, they already have enough Pools that it doesn't actually hurt them.

Examples of a game where this was actually effective are welcome. I've never seen Thief be good in 2P unless it's specifically targeting your opponent's payload and the opponent has spent the time trashing his Coppers for you.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 06:58:23 am »
0

Examples of a game where this was actually effective are welcome. I've never seen Thief be good in 2P unless it's specifically targeting your opponent's payload and the opponent has spent the time trashing his Coppers for you.

It's also good when you have an awesome engine but your BM playing opponent has been a little bit too fast and you're losing the game. It's still probably not enough to win the game, but it gives you a chance that you otherwise wouldn't have at all.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 08:41:35 am »
+2

Guys why did we decide it would be better to talk about another of the worst cards in the game. Do we need another thread to discuss cards we'll actually buy?
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 08:57:43 am »
+1

Guys why did we decide it would be better to talk about another of the worst cards in the game. Do we need another thread to discuss cards we'll actually buy?

One person decided to say Thief. Some other people responded with comments. If you don't like the card we're talking about, be the change you want to see! Start talking about some other card that you want to get better with. Nobody will get mad at you for changing the subject; that has never happened on this forum, ever.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2016, 10:41:18 am »
+1

I disagree. It's bad in more than half of games. It's usually not even worth the space it takes up. It's not as bad as Thief, but it's still usually worse than not having it. Most of the time it's worth it to trash it if you somehow get one.

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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2016, 12:32:42 pm »
0

I sometime like to punch some unsuspecting opponent (bots are great for this) with a Pirate Ship spite deck, and while I understand it's hardly ever the best strategy, it can be devastating if the opponent doesn't answer promptly.
I find that you need:
- trashing (most often, but sifting is also good)
- an engine on the board
- no or weak coins from actions (except pirate ship, that is)
- a collaborating opponent (that is, an opponent that realizes too late that money is bad for him)

The thing is, it's fun, it hurts, it punishes the guy badly, and leaves you with a strong deck afterwards (sometimes stupid good). Thief is bad for this because when you want to gear into greening, it doesn't provide much help, so you're not even sure you'll win in the aftermath.

All in all, I think Pirate ship (and Thief to a much lesser extent) are powerful attacks that are fortunately very easy to play around. The fact that PS was considered awesome for some time shows how hard it can kick ass on careless or unexperienced (or robotic) opponents.

I love pirates.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2016, 02:12:54 pm »
0

Ideally, you pick up Thief or Pirate Ship once your deck is able to handle the extra terminal action that may not immediately benefit you. (Saboteur) And if you pick up a few of them at once without giving your opponent time to react, you may very well stall them to a point where you can command the pace of the end-game.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2016, 02:15:43 pm »
+3

The fact that PS was considered awesome for some time shows how hard it can kick ass on careless or unexperienced (or robotic) opponents.

I always thought that PS was considered awesome for so long because it actually is awesome in lots of games with more than 2 players.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2016, 03:23:16 pm »
+2

thief and pirate ship are good when there are treasure cards other than silver and gold that matter, never let yourself forget. there's nonzero games where you both go for a trim horn of plenty deck and can pick up a thief as another unique, and both of you forgot that horn of plenty is a treasure card because it's not, and then it turns out than 6 horns beats the snot out of 4 horns.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2016, 03:55:53 pm »
+1

Guys why did we decide it would be better to talk about another of the worst cards in the game. Do we need another thread to discuss cards we'll actually buy?

One person decided to say Thief. Some other people responded with comments. If you don't like the card we're talking about, be the change you want to see! Start talking about some other card that you want to get better with. Nobody will get mad at you for changing the subject; that has never happened on this forum, ever.
I don't actually really care, was just remarking. Thief is a fine card to talk about
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2016, 10:24:51 am »
0

Let's compare thief to noble brigand
In my opinion when thief is good noble brigand is worse.
First of all Noble brigand can't steal platinum and kingdom treasures.
Platinum is very important to many colony games.
In colony games trashing is more important and both are more likely to hit platinums
To do a full economic pin you need to trash coppers not give them.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2016, 12:44:06 pm »
0

I play quite a lot 4p games and thief is an okayish card there.
But it΄s not vey much fun to play with. I often discard it for another kingdom card.

What usually happens is that one player gets really screwed by the thief, while it helps the other oponents, which leads to a lot of frustation for that one player, which Gold/Silvers always show up.
It rarely helps the player that bought it to win games, it helps his luckiest opponent a lot more.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2016, 09:31:51 am »
+1

Talisman is another card that is really good when it does shine.
In this game that Ela streamed. Ela picked up a turn ten Talisman to get two extra minstrels, two extra moats, and two extra throne rooms. The chat agreed that she should of picked it up earlier even as early as the second shuffle. Near the end of that game she triggered a nasty shuffle that she had to waste a whole turn not buying any green. Luckily her opponent could not afford province.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 10:31:12 am by Limetime »
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2016, 10:11:45 am »
+1

Thief is not bad, it's situational.

Sadly, there aren't a lot of good situations for Thief.
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Re: Dominion strategy discussion about things other than scout
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2016, 03:31:29 pm »
+1

Thief is not bad, it's situational.

Sadly, there aren't a lot of good situations for Thief.

Pretty sure that a situational card, for which there aren't a lot of good situations, is a bad card. (I mean bad as in weak; not sure if that's what you meant).
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