Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7  All

Author Topic: Scout Archives  (Read 50046 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

drsteelhammer

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1527
  • Shuffle iT Username: drsteelhammer
  • Respect: +1470
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2016, 09:41:38 pm »
+1

Scout doesn't counter Rabble. It'll clean up the mess Rabble left, if you have scout in hand. That's still not worth actually getting a Scout since that leaves you with one less useful card in the first place. It's like saying Storeroom counters Rabble cause it can do the same as Scout, but even turns the green cards into money :) To top it off, Scout doesn't even draw the Curses! The best thing about the Rabble/Scout interaction is that Rabble doesn in fact discard your scouts aswell and doesn't leave them on top.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

There is no bad shuffle that can not be surmounted by scorn.

enfynet

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1691
  • Respect: +1162
    • View Profile
    • JD's Custom Clubs
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2016, 09:41:42 pm »
0

Edits made: Added Mystic combo, added Ghost Ship and Rabble counters. I also responded to more criticism.

I would like someone to debate the fact that Scout doesn't hard counter Rabble.
You are assuming the deck is of "poor" quality to assign Scout as a counter to Rabble, which may not do anything in a streamlined engine deck. Your personal experience playing BM/slog games really shows if you are concerned with having a counter to Rabble.
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1346
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2016, 10:01:42 pm »
0

Edits made: Added Mystic combo, added Ghost Ship and Rabble counters. I also responded to more criticism.

I would like someone to debate the fact that Scout doesn't hard counter Rabble.
You are assuming the deck is of "poor" quality to assign Scout as a counter to Rabble, which may not do anything in a streamlined engine deck. Your personal experience playing BM/slog games really shows if you are concerned with having a counter to Rabble.
Once you start greening against the Rabble player, then Scout is excellent.
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

Elanchana

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 697
  • Princess of Derpminion
  • Respect: +1013
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #103 on: January 17, 2016, 11:27:26 pm »
+2

Okay, it looks like you desperately need someone to side with you seriously. And since I've been in your position before, I'll do my best.

The Green-Grab Function
This is the trademark element of Scout. It can siphon off as many as four victory cards, which are often useless other than their point values, paving the way for your key draw cards to get at the good stuff. In most decks, this effect doesn't make much of a difference, since, for example, a well-constructed engine draws past the green without much effort, or a slog deck doesn't mind having low-income turns anyway. By the time most decks are clogging themselves with green cards, it's too late for Scout to matter. But there are a few times when green-grabbing can get you places you want. Most obviously, with a deck heavy in functional alt-VP, a Scout can get up to that sweet, sweet double-Lab effect. Silk road works too. With a spare buy or two in an Apothecary deck, it can helpfully avoid that nasty pile of victory cards left when you pull all the coppers out from in between them. And then there's the counter to things like Rabble or Bureaucrat, where it can sift right past the attack and get your deck running again.

The Deck Inspection Function
Although it doesn't give the benefits of something like Cartographer, Scout does give you advance knowledge of up to four cards. This gives it great synergy with cards like Wishing Well and Mystic, and also their cousins like Vagrant and Magpie which depend on a certain type of card being there. Even if there's no card that directly benefits from deck inspection, an extra Scout could give you an insight into whether it's worth it to play that big terminal draw card with your last action or not.

The Non-Terminality
Hey, it doesn't waste an action to play it! In this respect, it's vastly superior to other "useless" cards such as Chancellor or Duchess. (I actually made a kingdom with the two lowest-rated cards from each coin price category - Scout was the only non-terminal on the board.) This can lead to some interesting considerations on boards when it's the only non-terminal. Prince it, and you have a permanent village. Have Golem hit it, similar story. And unlike Ruined Village, there's something it does besides give you another action. Speaking as someone who's directly benefited from a Princed Scout, it feels good when you can get that extra action in play and know what's coming next.

The Opportunity Cost
All of this ignores the downside of Scout - it takes four coins and a buy just to stick one in your deck, and even then there's no guarantee you'll draw it at the right time. Sure, outside of a big money deck (with dead-draw tendency) it might pass the silver test, but it rarely passes the other-cards-on-the-board-at-similar-prices test. I'd much rather spend a $4 hand on a Village, or a Vagrant, or a Conspirator, or a Sage, or... the list goes on. There are very few times when a Scout would be essential to someone's deck, no matter how helpful it might be otherwise. This is why it's a card that is often reserved for spare $4 buys, which don't often happen. The strategies that really take advantage of the three functions I mentioned earlier are the exceptions, and even then the nature of a game might not allow time to get enough Scouts to make a difference.
Edit: How the heck could I forget gainers? In games with Ironworks or Workshop or something, Scouts get a lot closer to free, so the opportunity cost can get low enough for you to get the small (sometimes not so small) help that Scout gives without having to pass up something more essential. I agree that if the only important pile of $2-4 actions runs out in an engine game with Ironworks and no victory chips, some Scouts should DEFINITELY leave the pile.

So like, Scout doesn't deserve as bad a rep as it gets, but it needs a bit more power behind it to be relevant enough to shake that reputation.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:12:24 am by Elanchana »
Logged
Sure it's just a game. The same way that your best friend in the whole world is "just a friend".

TwitchYouTubeMusic

!!CHANGED MY USERNAME ON 2.0!!

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5345
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #104 on: January 17, 2016, 11:41:24 pm »
0

Guys, in all fairness: Roadrunner is, if i understand correctly, usually playing with his family. If this means what i think it does, many of his games are against several opponents, not one. Engines, while still usually the most viable strategy, are quite a bit harder to build in multiplayer games. More players share the same pool of engine parts, meaning that everyone gets less of them, and more attacks hit your deck. Multiplayer games turn into slogs far quicker. The assumption that all games are engine races where you fight over some "split" is just not accurate.

Edit: Which doesn't mean i claim Scout is any good. It just means that "Rabble is not an argument, you're not supposed to have green!" is not a good point.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 11:44:11 pm by Asper »
Logged

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1346
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #105 on: January 18, 2016, 12:32:14 am »
0

Guys, in all fairness: Roadrunner is, if i understand correctly, usually playing with his family. If this means what i think it does, many of his games are against several opponents, not one. Engines, while still usually the most viable strategy, are quite a bit harder to build in multiplayer games. More players share the same pool of engine parts, meaning that everyone gets less of them, and more attacks hit your deck. Multiplayer games turn into slogs far quicker. The assumption that all games are engine races where you fight over some "split" is just not accurate.

Edit: Which doesn't mean i claim Scout is any good. It just means that "Rabble is not an argument, you're not supposed to have green!" is not a good point.
Not as many games as it may seem are again multiple opponents. I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #106 on: January 18, 2016, 01:17:28 am »
+6

I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.

If there's a source of +Buy on the board, you should be letting her get the first 5-6 Provinces while continuing to build your engine, then win by snagging all the remaining green in a couple of turns, after she has inevitably stalled.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1346
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2016, 01:23:22 am »
0

I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.

If there's a source of +Buy on the board, you should be letting her get the first 5-6 Provinces while continuing to build your engine, then win by snagging all the remaining green in a couple of turns, after she has inevitably stalled.
Okay, I let her get 6 Provinces.
Now I need 2 Provinces, 8 Duchies and 4 Estates (seeing as she didn't trash her estates). I can totally produce $64 coins and 14 buys in 'a couple of turns.'
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

wachsmuth

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 266
  • Respect: +347
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2016, 01:31:02 am »
0

I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.

If there's a source of +Buy on the board, you should be letting her get the first 5-6 Provinces while continuing to build your engine, then win by snagging all the remaining green in a couple of turns, after she has inevitably stalled.
Okay, I let her get 6 Provinces.
Now I need 2 Provinces, 8 Duchies and 4 Estates (seeing as she didn't trash her estates). I can totally produce $64 coins and 14 buys in 'a couple of turns.'

5 Provinces is more doable to catch up to, then you only need 3 Provinces and 5 Duchies. Which can absolutely be done if you've been able to build for 7-8 turns longer than her (assuming there is some real benefit to building for that long, of course). Many boards will also have some sort of catch-up mechanism that aids the engine player (e.g. a slow curser such as Jester, or some sort of engine-friendly alt-VP such as Fairgrounds or Monument).
Logged

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1728
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #109 on: January 18, 2016, 03:12:00 am »
0

Scout doesn't counter Rabble

I agree.  Doing the same thing that your opponent is doing to play all those Rabbles would be a better counter to them playing all those Rabbles than would be buying a Scout (or whatever they heck you're trying to do with it).
Logged

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +278
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #110 on: January 18, 2016, 04:21:31 am »
0

@RR: What about you come up with a couple of boards where you think Scout is a valuable addition to a deck. Then you (or someone) can do some simulation and possibly some sample games and see how a Scout performs vs. a respective no-Scout deck.

I mean, the point most people are making is that Scout is often not bad to HAVE, but not good enough to GET on most boards. The only way to prove or disprove that point is facts and data.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12847
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #111 on: January 18, 2016, 05:22:37 am »
+2

The Opportunity Cost
All of this ignores the downside of Scout - it takes four coins and a buy just to stick one in your deck, and even then there's no guarantee you'll draw it at the right time. Sure, outside of a big money deck (with dead-draw tendency) it might pass the silver test, but it rarely passes the other-cards-on-the-board-at-similar-prices test. I'd much rather spend a $4 hand on a Village, or a Vagrant, or a Conspirator, or a Sage, or... the list goes on. There are very few times when a Scout would be essential to someone's deck, no matter how helpful it might be otherwise. This is why it's a card that is often reserved for spare $4 buys, which don't often happen. The strategies that really take advantage of the three functions I mentioned earlier are the exceptions, and even then the nature of a game might not allow time to get enough Scouts to make a difference.
Edit: How the heck could I forget gainers? In games with Ironworks or Workshop or something, Scouts get a lot closer to free, so the opportunity cost can get low enough for you to get the small (sometimes not so small) help that Scout gives without having to pass up something more essential. I agree that if the only important pile of $2-4 actions runs out in an engine game with Ironworks and no victory chips, some Scouts should DEFINITELY leave the pile.

It doesn't pass the Silver test. It doesn't even pass the nothing test. It doesn't get better than nothing until you can take significant advantage of all of the three categories you mentioned above. In other words, before you even consider buying or gaining a Scout over nothing, you should expect your draw pile to contain at least 25% Victory cards when you play Scout, you should have a card that cares about the order of the top of your deck and it should be essential that said card works correctly as much as possible, and you should have a card that benefits from $4 non-terminal Actions named Scout being in your deck. If one of these three is not true, you don't want to gain Scout over nothing, and even if all three are true, you probably don't want to gain Scout over the other alternatives unless there are no other alternatives.

I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.

If there's a source of +Buy on the board, you should be letting her get the first 5-6 Provinces while continuing to build your engine, then win by snagging all the remaining green in a couple of turns, after she has inevitably stalled.
Okay, I let her get 6 Provinces.
Now I need 2 Provinces, 8 Duchies and 4 Estates (seeing as she didn't trash her estates). I can totally produce $64 coins and 14 buys in 'a couple of turns.'

Sounds like two or three turns to me, maybe even one turn if it's a Bridge or Merchant Guild board.

It feels like maybe 1/5 of games (even with Taxman as one of the kingdom cards) tops are BM games, and maybe 1/10 of the ones BM games with Taxman in them don't have anything better, so that's like a 2% gain rate by my estimation. I'd put scout at more like 5%.

Well, looking at this thing again, Scout's gain rate is something like 9% and Taxman's is 22%. Both are higher than I would have expected and it's also more in Taxman's favor than I expected, and it also turns out the top 20 players have a significantly higher win rate than usual (over 70%) when they're the only player gaining Taxman, while they have more or less the expected win rate when they're the only player gaining Scout (around 63%). EDIT: I initially had the wrong win rate percentage for Scout.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 05:34:02 am by Awaclus »
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2833
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3879
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #112 on: January 18, 2016, 07:07:25 am »
+2

I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work).

This one comes to mind (it was played really badly, though) KC+Coppersmith is one of the more explosive payloads out there.

IGG+Coppersmith is like amazing, I can't believe nobody has mentioned that (though to be fair I've skimmed over a good amount of this thread. I really don't feel like there's much value in talking about Scout anymore TBH but hey it's Dominion so I'll take it :P)

There's this guy from forever ago too.

If you just search the Game Reports subforum for "Coppersmith" you'll find like 55 threads about games where Coppersmith is good. Sure, terminal money isn't the most exciting but nobody's knocking on Poor House and Coppersmith can be just as powerful pretty easily.
Logged
Visit my blog for links to a whole bunch of Dominion content I've made.

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #113 on: January 18, 2016, 08:14:16 am »
+1

My gf and I both made a deck to make Scout work. I guess on both of these you might be incentivized to buy a scout, no?



My deck.


[/url][/img]

My girlfriend's deck.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 08:15:20 am by AdrianHealey »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12847
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #114 on: January 18, 2016, 08:17:54 am »
+1

I guess on both of these you might be incentivized to buy a scout, no?

No.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #115 on: January 18, 2016, 08:19:54 am »
0

I guess on both of these you might be incentivized to buy a scout, no?

No.

Especially in the first one, I'd find it weird. How would you play on that particular board?

Crossroads likes green, scout likes green, wishing well and mystic like knowing what's coming and storeroom likes additonal cards in your hand. And Harem and Nobles are not-not useful. Princing a scout on this board seems... potentially worth it.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 08:23:24 am by AdrianHealey »
Logged

assemble_me

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1407
  • Shuffle iT Username: assemble me
  • Dominion stream/yt junkie
  • Respect: +807
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #116 on: January 18, 2016, 08:24:34 am »
0

My gf and I both made a deck to make Scout work. I guess on both of these you might be incentivized to buy a scout, no?
...

I wouldn't get Scout in your GF's deck. I'd probably open NV/Jack (maybe NV/Black Market) and go for Native Villages, Rabbles, some Nobles and Goons, hoping for extra Villages and Trashing from the BM. Scout seems not worth it, because I probably would not get enough green cards even with Nobles and some Great Halls (but you rather take Peddlers from spare buys)

Not so sure about the first one. It might be okay here, guess the heart of the deck should be Crossroads/Nobles, though.
Logged
Join the f.ds Dominion league | My Twitch channel

... and none of his posts shall remain unedited

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12847
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #117 on: January 18, 2016, 08:26:00 am »
+3

Especially in the first one, I'd find it weird. How would you play on that particular board?

Depending on my draws, I might just go for pretty much Nobles+BM or do something BM-like with Mystics and Wishing Wells. Near the end of the game I'd get a few Crossroads too.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 08:27:13 am by Awaclus »
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #118 on: January 18, 2016, 08:28:43 am »
0

My gf and I both made a deck to make Scout work. I guess on both of these you might be incentivized to buy a scout, no?
...

I wouldn't get Scout in your GF's deck. I'd probably open NV/Jack (maybe NV/Black Market) and go for Native Villages, Rabbles, some Nobles and Goons, hoping for extra Villages and Trashing from the BM. Scout seems not worth it, because I probably would not get enough green cards even with Nobles and some Great Halls (but you rather take Peddlers from spare buys)

Not so sure about the first one. It might be okay here, guess the heart of the deck should be Crossroads/Nobles, though.

Hers was more of a 'let's see if we can make it work without deliberately aiming for it'. Mine was, obviously, created with 'let's put everything that works with scout in one deck'.

Before you get to nobles, you wouldn't pick up a scout?

Either way: if that deck doesn't make you want to buy a scout, than I really do think nothing will.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 08:32:31 am by AdrianHealey »
Logged

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2833
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3879
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #119 on: January 18, 2016, 08:33:09 am »
+15

Let me try and be more helpful than Awaclus while still getting less upvotes.

On the first board, your payload is "draw a bunch of cards and play some Storerooms" -- not all that explosive and it might lose to Big Money with the decent-ish enablers here (Warehouse is probably better for big money than it is for something involving Scout). If you want me to buy Scout on this board, throw in some Copper trashing and a bigger payload (the second board has Goons on it, that seems pretty good). EDIT: I've found Scout/Crossroads is only good in puzzles when you get to assume perfect shuffle luck. Otherwise, you end up taking green from your next hand where your CR was while not being able to use it this hand, just as often as you make something good happen with it.

The second board has Black Market. Gross. The thing is, there's another source of draw on the board (Rabble) that is really stinkin' good. Makes me not want Scout. Also there's no Copper trashing unless you can find it in the BM deck -- this is really important because without a way to thin Coppers, you're not really ever going to be able to consistently line up two cards that Scout can draw in the four that it can see, and if you can't do that, there's no reason to build your entire deck/draw strategy around making that work when there's an alternative (Rabble) that is really good. Yeah, it's terminal, but you can go digging in the BM deck for villages if you want and you're more likely to succeed. That plus the attack is non-trivial.


Finally, this may be useful to you:

Code: [Select]
[img width=640]http://s23.postimg.org/i6b17cozv/Schermafbeelding_2016_01_18_om_14_11_39.png[/img]
My deck.

[img width=640]http://s27.postimg.org/78q4zqv2b/Schermafbeelding_2016_01_18_om_14_12_39.png[/img]
My girlfriend's deck.

Gets you this, which on lower resolutions will make it much easier to view the images :-)


My deck.


My girlfriend's deck.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 08:34:46 am by AdamH »
Logged
Visit my blog for links to a whole bunch of Dominion content I've made.

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #120 on: January 18, 2016, 08:36:28 am »
+1

Let me try and be more helpful than Awaclus while still getting less upvotes.

On the first board, your payload is "draw a bunch of cards and play some Storerooms" -- not all that explosive and it might lose to Big Money with the decent-ish enablers here (Warehouse is probably better for big money than it is for something involving Scout). If you want me to buy Scout on this board, throw in some Copper trashing and a bigger payload (the second board has Goons on it, that seems pretty good)

Fair enough. I am not trying to prove Scout's point. I was just wondering how bad people consider scout to be. If you wouldn't buy it on the first deck, you really consider it shit. FWIW: I just tried a few scenario's, and my best game on the first deck still involved buying one or two scouts, on the way of getting nobles.

Maybe it helped that it's a colony/platinum game.


Finally, this may be useful to you:


I have been googling for something like this, but couldn't find it. Thanks!
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12847
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #121 on: January 18, 2016, 08:38:11 am »
+8

Mine was, obviously, created with 'let's put everything that works with scout in one deck'.

That's not how it works, though. It doesn't matter how many different cards there are that synergize with Scout's deck ordering ability or the Victory card drawing ability, what matters is that in the dominant strategy that you're already going for regardless of Scout, there must be a reason to expect the top cards of your deck to have a significant amount of Victory cards, there must be a way to significantly benefit from the deck ordering, there must be a way to benefit from the fact that Scout is a non-terminal Action, and there must be a way to gain Scout for no opportunity cost at all.

For the record, yours is the kind of a kingdom where I'd buy Taxman if Scout was Taxman.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #122 on: January 18, 2016, 08:43:47 am »
0

Mine was, obviously, created with 'let's put everything that works with scout in one deck'.

That's not how it works, though. It doesn't matter how many different cards there are that synergize with Scout's deck ordering ability or the Victory card drawing ability, what matters is that in the dominant strategy that you're already going for regardless of Scout, there must be a reason to expect the top cards of your deck to have a significant amount of Victory cards, there must be a way to significantly benefit from the deck ordering, there must be a way to benefit from the fact that Scout is a non-terminal Action, and there must be a way to gain Scout for no opportunity cost at all.

For the record, yours is the kind of a kingdom where I'd buy Taxman if Scout was Taxman.

One and three are definitely true in this particular deck, though. Two... possibily. Four... also possible, because there is no other $4 card.

I also don't think you are right in saying that all of these need to be present, if some of these are *strongly* present. Given the amount of green cards (and the other card that synergizes with green: crossroads), I'd say that compensates for the lesser importance of 3. (Although that's still possible, if you buy wishingwell/mystic.)

Not that I am specifically defending scout, maybe just defending scout on this deck. But the fact that you need to design an entire kingdom just to make one card work... (and even then it seems like it's not the deck to be) seems to count against that card.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 08:44:51 am by AdrianHealey »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12847
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #123 on: January 18, 2016, 09:00:45 am »
+6

I also don't think you are right in saying that all of these need to be present, if some of these are *strongly* present. Given the amount of green cards (and the other card that synergizes with green: crossroads), I'd say that compensates for the lesser importance of 3. (Although that's still possible, if you buy wishingwell/mystic.)

Like I said, it doesn't matter how many different green cards there are in the kingdom. If you just suddenly had all of them in your deck, you would want Scout, but you're not going to buy enough of them for Scout to be better than nothing.

In fact, I recently played a game where all of those four were true, and Scout was just good enough to be better than nothing. My opponent got it too early and it sucked for him. http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160113/log.0.1452694196857.txt

Scrying Pool benefited from the deck ordering very significantly, Scrying Pool + Vault benefited from an extra Action card being in my deck, the combined lack of Estate trashing and +buy and the presence of Nobles meant that I would need to have a lot of green cards in my deck at some point before the end of the game, and I could gain Scouts with the Border Villages that I wanted to buy anyway just for being $6 Villages after I felt like I had enough (i.e. 3) Young Witches.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 09:10:22 am by Awaclus »
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2833
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3879
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #124 on: January 18, 2016, 09:02:41 am »
0

Maybe it helped that it's a colony/platinum game.

Hmm, this is an important bit of information -- this might be enough payload for me to invest in the Nobles/Storeroom/whatever shenanigans and potentially help Scout pass the Silver test. OTOH, my point about Scout not being able to reliably find two or more cards still stands, I think in the endgame on bad hands if I had enough Great Halls I might pick up a Scout. Hmm, maybe I'd just get a Crossroads instead. I dunno. Seems pretty edge-casey still.

For the record, yours is the kind of a kingdom where I'd buy Taxman if Scout was Taxman.

In a Colony game, Taxman is actually quite good.

Awaclus is making a lot of really good points, actually. Seriously, everyone should +1 his posts :)
Logged
Visit my blog for links to a whole bunch of Dominion content I've made.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7  All
 

Page created in 0.066 seconds with 21 queries.