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Author Topic: Scout Archives  (Read 50048 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2016, 12:45:46 pm »
+2

NSFW
Here is a screenshot of everything Scout and below. My list (if made today) would be very, very different. Please no judging.

Well, at least you got the order of Walled Village and Farming Village right.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2016, 02:19:54 pm »
+2

I am having trouble believing that are any boards at all with both Worker's Village and Scout, or Tournament and Scout, where Scout is the better card of the two.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2016, 02:40:38 pm »
0

Did you measure their strength or how much you like them?
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2016, 02:47:46 pm »
0

Did you measure their strength or how much you like them?
I'm not sure. I think both.
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liopoil

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2016, 04:22:55 pm »
0

Did you measure their strength or how much you like them?
I'm not sure. I think both.
Well, if scout is your favorite card and also the worst card, then it make sense for it to be in the middle.

Ok, I buy that Treasure Map isn't the worst. I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work). Even when nothing else is going on Taxman struggles to pass the silver test for me. I guess I agree that the picking up while greening is rare, so the primary use of scout is as non-terminal re-arranger. Truly it is a ruined village+. And well, I can see that being better than a couple terminals that just don't do much of anything.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2016, 04:51:18 pm »
0

Did you measure their strength or how much you like them?
I'm not sure. I think both.
Well, if scout is your favorite card and also the worst card, then it make sense for it to be in the middle.

Ok, I buy that Treasure Map isn't the worst. I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work). Even when nothing else is going on Taxman struggles to pass the silver test for me. I guess I agree that the picking up while greening is rare, so the primary use of scout is as non-terminal re-arranger. Truly it is a ruined village+. And well, I can see that being better than a couple terminals that just don't do much of anything.

Taxman is pretty good actually, definitely not one of the bottom 5 $4 cards. It's a slightly weaker, but also cheaper Mine with a Cutpurse-ish attack to boot. It's strong on boards where Mine would also be strong - engine boards with good draw and +Buy, but no other Copper trashing. It's especially awesome in Colony games.

Every card can be useful, but Scout is probably the card for which those situations are rarest.
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liopoil

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2016, 05:47:02 pm »
0

Did you measure their strength or how much you like them?
I'm not sure. I think both.
Well, if scout is your favorite card and also the worst card, then it make sense for it to be in the middle.

Ok, I buy that Treasure Map isn't the worst. I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work). Even when nothing else is going on Taxman struggles to pass the silver test for me. I guess I agree that the picking up while greening is rare, so the primary use of scout is as non-terminal re-arranger. Truly it is a ruined village+. And well, I can see that being better than a couple terminals that just don't do much of anything.

Taxman is pretty good actually, definitely not one of the bottom 5 $4 cards. It's a slightly weaker, but also cheaper Mine with a Cutpurse-ish attack to boot. It's strong on boards where Mine would also be strong - engine boards with good draw and +Buy, but no other Copper trashing. It's especially awesome in Colony games.

Every card can be useful, but Scout is probably the card for which those situations are rarest.
Taxman is way worse than mine (and Mine is one of the worst 5-costs). It effectively decreases your handsize by 3 (!), so you better have a ton of draw. And if you have that much draw, the attack is probably irrelevant (opponent will just draw it all anyway), and so it effectively says "discard a treasure, if you do, gain a peddler" (assuming you reliably draw your deck). This means that it takes 4 turns to have payed out more than a silver. Do you have those four turns (and 4 actions and 4 cards)? It's just awful.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2016, 06:09:17 pm »
0

I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work).

Coppersmith generally has 2 roles: early game accelerator and massive $ payload.

In this game, Apprentice/Fortress provides huge draw and actions but poor Copper trashing, and Coppersmith is a better payload than Fool's Gold or Treasure Map.

Why? Take a look at the numbers:

Coppersmith: terminal $7 in 1 card costing $4
Treasure Map, cashed in for 2 golds: non-terminal $6 in 2 cards costing $4
Fool's Gold: non-terminal $8 in 2 cards costing $4 and 2 buys

Awaclus

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2016, 06:33:19 pm »
0

Taxman is way worse than mine (and Mine is one of the worst 5-costs). It effectively decreases your handsize by 3 (!), so you better have a ton of draw. And if you have that much draw, the attack is probably irrelevant (opponent will just draw it all anyway), and so it effectively says "discard a treasure, if you do, gain a peddler" (assuming you reliably draw your deck). This means that it takes 4 turns to have payed out more than a silver. Do you have those four turns (and 4 actions and 4 cards)? It's just awful.

You don't reliably draw your deck, you're going for Taxman.

In the type of game where nothing's going on, any early hand with Taxman in it is better than the same hand with a Silver instead of Taxman. For instance, if you have a Silver and 4 Coppers, you can buy a Gold, but if you have a Taxman and 4 Coppers, you can turn one of those Coppers into a Silver and buy a Silver (which is roughly as good as buying a Gold) and you attack your opponent. If you have a Silver and 3 Coppers, you can buy a Silver, but if you have a Taxman and 3 Coppers, you get that same benefit while you're also trashing a Copper and attacking your opponent. It's only worse than Silver in your current hand when you're greening, and in that case, you can utilize the topdecking ability to set up big turns and make your opponent's turns significantly weaker.

If it's a kingdom where you want to buy something other than a Silver whenever you have $5, Taxman is not very good. Which is a lot of the time, but not every time, and the games where Taxman is useful are more common than the games where Scout is useful and the Taxman in those games is also more powerful than the Scout in those other games.

Taxman is pretty good actually, definitely not one of the bottom 5 $4 cards. It's a slightly weaker, but also cheaper Mine with a Cutpurse-ish attack to boot. It's strong on boards where Mine would also be strong - engine boards with good draw and +Buy, but no other Copper trashing. It's especially awesome in Colony games.

Engine boards with good draw and +buy but no Copper trashing are where Coppersmith is good. Taxman is incredibly weak engine payload, and if there's no trashing and no better payload, it's probably not an engine board. If there is better payload, you want that instead of Taxman.

Every card can be useful, but Scout is probably the card for which those situations are rarest.

I don't think that they are the rarest for Scout. Coppersmith, Thief, Harvest, Tribute, Adventurer and Transmute definitely might be rarer. The main problem is that even when Scout is actually useful, it's not gamebreaking, a central part of your strategy or even strong. It's just so very slightly better than nothing that it makes hardly any difference even when it's a good idea to buy it. That could also be said of Harvest and Adventurer (and I think they are pretty much as awful as Scout), but cards like Coppersmith and Thief are better than Scout because they have the potential to be incredibly strong at least once per 90-93 games where the card appears.

Coppersmith generally has 2 roles: early game accelerator and massive $ payload.

It's not really any better than Silver at the former.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 06:36:34 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2016, 06:36:05 pm »
0

Oh, so now we're saying Scout isn't weak, it's just not super strong? It's a start, guys.

And what are you talking about, 'game breaking?' There are like 15 cards that are game breaking. 15 < 90-93.
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Awaclus

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2016, 06:38:36 pm »
0

Oh, so now we're saying Scout isn't weak, it's just not super strong? It's a start, guys.

No, we're saying that even in the best case scenario, Scout is still not strong. Outside of the super rare best case scenario, Scout is completely awful and if you happen to draw it in the same hand with Chapel, you should trash the Scout (depending on the situation, you might even want to do it if it means you can't play your other terminal Action in that hand and this is neither a joke nor an exaggeration).

Quote
And what are you talking about, 'game breaking?' There are like 15 cards that are game breaking. 15 < 90-93.

I'm talking about stealing your opponent's Platinums or generating $7 with one terminal Action that costs $4 to purchase.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 06:40:57 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2016, 06:40:32 pm »
0

Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insane not to take it. You can go on and on about a decrease in hand size, but no. No. Scout.
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Awaclus

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2016, 06:41:22 pm »
+1

Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insane not to take it.

FTFY.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 06:43:18 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2016, 06:42:30 pm »
+1

Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insane not to take it.

FTFY.
No you did not fix that for me! I meant what I said and I said what I meant.
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Awaclus

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2016, 06:44:24 pm »
0

Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insane not to take it.

FTFY.
No you did not fix that for me! I meant what I said and I said what I meant.
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A weaker Laboratory which hands Scouts over to your opponent is considered one of the strongest $5 cards in the game. That's how bad the card is.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2016, 06:47:40 pm »
0

Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insane not to take it.

FTFY.
No you did not fix that for me! I meant what I said and I said what I meant.
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A weaker Laboratory which hands Scouts over to your opponent is considered one of the strongest $5 cards in the game. That's how bad the card is.
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Awaclus

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2016, 06:53:05 pm »
0

This is some bull.

No it's not. It was the #3 $5 card (and underrated) in Qvist's rankings this year.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2016, 06:55:00 pm »
0

This is some bull.

No it's not. It was the #3 $5 card (and underrated) in Qvist's rankings this year.
I need to make a joke about a current Mafia game but I can't :(
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2016, 07:02:31 pm »
+2

Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insane not to take it.

FTFY.
No you did not fix that for me! I meant what I said and I said what I meant.
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A weaker Laboratory which hands Scouts over to your opponent is considered one of the strongest $5 cards in the game. That's how bad the card is.
This is some bull. I'm never going to get anything done talking to Awaclus, am I?
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liopoil

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2016, 07:48:22 pm »
0

Taxman is way worse than mine (and Mine is one of the worst 5-costs). It effectively decreases your handsize by 3 (!), so you better have a ton of draw. And if you have that much draw, the attack is probably irrelevant (opponent will just draw it all anyway), and so it effectively says "discard a treasure, if you do, gain a peddler" (assuming you reliably draw your deck). This means that it takes 4 turns to have payed out more than a silver. Do you have those four turns (and 4 actions and 4 cards)? It's just awful.

You don't reliably draw your deck, you're going for Taxman.

In the type of game where nothing's going on, any early hand with Taxman in it is better than the same hand with a Silver instead of Taxman. For instance, if you have a Silver and 4 Coppers, you can buy a Gold, but if you have a Taxman and 4 Coppers, you can turn one of those Coppers into a Silver and buy a Silver (which is roughly as good as buying a Gold) and you attack your opponent. If you have a Silver and 3 Coppers, you can buy a Silver, but if you have a Taxman and 3 Coppers, you get that same benefit while you're also trashing a Copper and attacking your opponent. It's only worse than Silver in your current hand when you're greening, and in that case, you can utilize the topdecking ability to set up big turns and make your opponent's turns significantly weaker.

If it's a kingdom where you want to buy something other than a Silver whenever you have $5, Taxman is not very good. Which is a lot of the time, but not every time, and the games where Taxman is useful are more common than the games where Scout is useful and the Taxman in those games is also more powerful than the Scout in those other games.
Ok, yes I agree that Taxman is only viable in a kingdom with no engine sort of thing at all. I was just addressing Aleimon Thimble's argument that it is.

Now your argument basically just shows that Taxman-BM is better than BMU. Okay, yes, this is true (and the same cannot be said for Scout). However, how often will there not only not be an engine, but also the best BM strategy involves Taxman? Most terminal 4-costs would be better, not to mention plenty of cards at other costs. Big-Money decks have very limited terminal space which is hardly ever best filled by Taxman. That's why you should usually just take a silver if Taxman is your only option at .
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Awaclus

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2016, 07:55:25 pm »
0

Now your argument basically just shows that Taxman-BM is better than BMU. Okay, yes, this is true (and the same cannot be said for Scout). However, how often will there not only not be an engine, but also the best BM strategy involves Taxman? Most terminal 4-costs would be better, not to mention plenty of cards at other costs. Big-Money decks have very limited terminal space which is hardly ever best filled by Taxman. That's why you should usually just take a silver if Taxman is your only option at .

Well, I feel like games where the best BM strategy doesn't involve any good cards happen like a few times per 100 games or something like that. Taxman being in the kingdom slightly increases the likelihood of this being the case. I guess it might be around once per 10-20 games with Taxman in them, which definitely means that it's a bad card in general, but I think the number is worse for Scout. (and if it turns out that the number I pulled out of my ass for Taxman is inaccurate, then I think my estimation for Scout is equally inaccurate relative to that)
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liopoil

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2016, 08:07:06 pm »
0

I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work).

Coppersmith generally has 2 roles: early game accelerator and massive $ payload.

In this game, Apprentice/Fortress provides huge draw and actions but poor Copper trashing, and Coppersmith is a better payload than Fool's Gold or Treasure Map.

Why? Take a look at the numbers:

Coppersmith: terminal $7 in 1 card costing $4
Treasure Map, cashed in for 2 golds: non-terminal $6 in 2 cards costing $4
Fool's Gold: non-terminal $8 in 2 cards costing $4 and 2 buys
Okay, so you definitely don't want to open Coppersmith there and you got the perfect turn 3/4. Probably open pawn/silver to maximize chances of getting Apprentices, then you're going to want to get Fortresses, and I think after that Treasure map (!) is a better option. Two treasure maps become non-terminal $12 while two Coppersmiths are terminal $14. The 2-coin difference is more than made up for by:

-Now you can trash coppers if you want
-You no longer have to draw your deck to have a decent turn
-You have more free actions so your pawns become a bit better

Also you got a silver on the opening so there's two coins too. You are, however, counting on being able to collide the treasure maps right away, but I think that this will be very likely by the time you get them (both in one turn, after having trashed estates and having several fortresses and apprentices), and the golds do take up more space in your deck.

I will grant you that if you substitute Treasure Map for Scout, Coppersmith becomes worthwhile.

Now your argument basically just shows that Taxman-BM is better than BMU. Okay, yes, this is true (and the same cannot be said for Scout). However, how often will there not only not be an engine, but also the best BM strategy involves Taxman? Most terminal 4-costs would be better, not to mention plenty of cards at other costs. Big-Money decks have very limited terminal space which is hardly ever best filled by Taxman. That's why you should usually just take a silver if Taxman is your only option at .

Well, I feel like games where the best BM strategy doesn't involve any good cards happen like a few times per 100 games or something like that. Taxman being in the kingdom slightly increases the likelihood of this being the case. I guess it might be around once per 10-20 games with Taxman in them, which definitely means that it's a bad card in general, but I think the number is worse for Scout. (and if it turns out that the number I pulled out of my ass for Taxman is inaccurate, then I think my estimation for Scout is equally inaccurate relative to that)
It feels like maybe 1/5 of games (even with Taxman as one of the kingdom cards) tops are BM games, and maybe 1/10 of the ones BM games with Taxman in them don't have anything better, so that's like a 2% gain rate by my estimation. I'd put scout at more like 5%.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2016, 08:49:11 pm »
0

Edits made: Added Mystic combo, added Ghost Ship and Rabble counters. I also responded to more criticism.

I would like someone to debate the fact that Scout doesn't hard counter Rabble.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 09:09:43 pm by Roadrunner7671 »
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2016, 09:32:33 pm »
+4

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2016, 09:34:47 pm »
0


I don't get it. Is the joke that you can draw Estates then turn them into Gold via Transmute? That sounds like a cute trick (it sounds weak, but still cute).
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