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Author Topic: Scout Archives  (Read 50273 times)

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faust

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2016, 07:52:36 pm »
+10

In reflection of this post, it is pointless, and I shouldn't post it, but I wasted time typing it, so here we are.

Personally I admire how you made it so that your post precisely resembles Scout in that game.
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Asper

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2016, 09:08:05 pm »
+1

This thread is satire, right? I like it.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2016, 11:47:20 pm »
0

This thread is satire, right? I like it.
You just wait until I get computer access: we got Apothecaries, Mystics, Nobles, Great Halls, Harems, other stuff, etc.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2016, 07:28:32 am »
0

I made a deck online with Great Halls, Harems, Nobles, Wishing Well, Prince and Mystic (and a couple of others.) Surprisingly, I did bought a few scouts there.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2016, 08:58:07 am »
+8

This needs to go into its own subforum so that I can ignore that subforum.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2016, 09:36:04 am »
+1

Recently, I bought a Scout in a game for the sole reason of making a Golem play non-terminal. It was the only non-Potion cost card that was non-terminal, there were no other Villages than Golem, and it was important because I wanted to play two Torturers every turn. It worked out.

That was the only time ever I was actually happy I bought a Scout.

I still think Apothecary/Scout is the best combo with Scout, but I haven't played an Apothecary/Scout game yet.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2016, 09:39:05 am »
0

I still think Apothecary/Scout is the best combo with Scout

It's not a combo. It's not really even something you want to do.
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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2016, 10:19:28 am »
0

I still think Apothecary/Scout is the best combo with Scout

It's not a combo. It's not really even something you want to do.

But if Apothecary is a thing you want to do, Scout is decent lubrication for draw once the greening phase begins, and I'd argue that Scout allows you to start greening earlier in an Apothecary-based draw engine.
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Gubump

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2016, 10:48:55 am »
0

"I think generally the criticism of Scout sums up in the words 'Opportunity cost.' It only hurts you because it is taking the place of something that would help you more." -Jamfamsam

Thank you, Jamfamsam, for providing a common argument as to why Scout is bad. However, what is there that might help you more? Cards like Sea Hag, JOAT and Remake are generally better than Scout, I will not argue that they are better than Scout. But here's the thing that causes lots of people to disagree with me: I think Scout passes the Silver Test. I don't think Scout's opportunity cost is super low. So the 'Oppurtunity Cost' argument doesn't faze me because it doesn't make sense; Scout doesn't have low Oppurtunity Cost.

Um, you're arguing against him by agreeing with him...you're saying that it has a high opportunity cost, which is the exact same thing as Jamfamsam is saying...
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2016, 12:50:38 pm »
0

"I think generally the criticism of Scout sums up in the words 'Opportunity cost.' It only hurts you because it is taking the place of something that would help you more." -Jamfamsam

Thank you, Jamfamsam, for providing a common argument as to why Scout is bad. However, what is there that might help you more? Cards like Sea Hag, JOAT and Remake are generally better than Scout, I will not argue that they are better than Scout. But here's the thing that causes lots of people to disagree with me: I think Scout passes the Silver Test. I don't think Scout's opportunity cost is super low. So the 'Oppurtunity Cost' argument doesn't faze me because it doesn't make sense; Scout doesn't have low Oppurtunity Cost.

Um, you're arguing against him by agreeing with him...you're saying that it has a high opportunity cost, which is the exact same thing as Jamfamsam is saying...
I'm saying that if the Oppurtunity arises to get a Scout, it's probably a good idea.
Wait, does Mountebank have a high or low opportunity cost?
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Awaclus

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2016, 01:10:43 pm »
0

I'm saying that if the Oppurtunity arises to get a Scout, it's probably a good idea.
Wait, does Mountebank have a high or low opportunity cost?

It depends. The more opportunities to do other stuff in its stead you have to throw away in order to acquire a card, the higher the opportunity cost. Sometimes it's an extremely high opportunity cost when you have, say, three Golds and a Potion and it's a Colony game with Possession, Grand Market and King's Court in the kingdom — if you buy Mountebank there, you're sacrificing the opportunity to do a lot of other good stuff. If it's an engine game and the relevant engine component piles are either empty or so low that you don't want to make them any lower and you have a $5 dud turn and it's not yet the time for Duchies and there aren't really any cards in the kingdom that you particularly want (i.e. you're essentially deciding between Mountebank and nothing), then it's an extremely low opportunity cost.

The difference between Mountebank and Scout is that in the former scenario, it can actually be a good idea to buy the Mountebank sometimes (assuming that you got the Golds from Tunnel or something) because Mountebank is that strong. Scout is not that strong. You hardly ever want it over nothing, and even when it "shines", it's hardly ever worth buying instead of something else you could get with $4 and a buy.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2016, 01:18:30 pm »
+3

Econ teacher: the 'height' of your opportunity cost depends on alternatives.

Having $6 and buying a scout on a board with mountebank and gold: there is a high opportunity cost for buying scout.

Having $4 when you already have 5 nobles, 3 harems, 2 great halls and the only other 4 card cost is younh witch and all the curses are gone? Lower opportunity cost.

The general claim against scout is: buying scout has a high opportunit cost, so it's not worth it, usually.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2016, 01:19:36 pm »
0

Econ teacher: the 'height' of your opportunity cost depends on alternatives.

Having $6 and buying a scout on a board with mountebank and gold: there is a high opportunity cost for buying scout.

Having $4 when you already have 5 nobles, 3 harems, 2 great halls and the only other 4 card cost is younh witch and all the curses are gone? Lower opportunity cost.

The general claim against scout is: buying scout has a high opportunit cost, so it's not worth it, usually.
Thank you, for some reason I thought it was the other way around.
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liopoil

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2016, 01:26:07 pm »
+3

I disagree that opportunity cost changes with how good scout is. All 4-costs have the same opportunity cost. Opportunity cost describes just the value of what you would have otherwise spent the opportunity on. In deciding whether to get scout, ask if the alternative would be more helpful rather than whether scout would be helpful. The argument is that scout is rarely good enough to stand up against the alternative - it's value is less than the opportunity to get a 4-cost, so getting a scout is a bad trade. The idea is that you are spending an opportunity, and in return you get a scout.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 01:28:10 pm by liopoil »
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enfynet

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2016, 01:26:39 pm »
+1

op·por·tu·ni·ty cost

noun [ECONOMICS]

the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.
_____

Basically the Cost of Scout is 1 Buy and $4. The Opportunity Cost of Scout is the [missed] opportunity to buy something that may be of greater benefit with the same resources.
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Asper

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2016, 01:38:55 pm »
+12

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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2016, 01:40:54 pm »
0

Oh, no. This thread has exhibited the first telltale sign that it will go off-topic: memes!
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theright555J

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2016, 01:48:40 pm »
0

Oh, no. This thread has exhibited the first telltale sign that it will go off-topic: memes!

It's not about being off topic...that meme was quite on topic! It's that this point has been already thoroughly demonstrated for several years!! This is why so many jokes abound about scout. I'm not sure whether you understand that, and if if not then what information would help convince you, and if you do understand it already, then this whole thing is just silly.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2016, 02:06:55 pm »
+1

op·por·tu·ni·ty cost

noun [ECONOMICS]

the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.
_____

Basically the Cost of Scout is 1 Buy and $4. The Opportunity Cost of Scout is the [missed] opportunity to buy something that may be of greater benefit with the same resources.

In class, I'd say that the *price* of Scout is $4. The *cost* (which is always short for opportunity cost) is whatever you could have got with the $4 and the buy.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2016, 02:08:13 pm »
0

What RR needs to done - as I am sure he knows - is to prove that there are more situations than others (including me) generally think where it's worth buying scout. He needs to prove that our estimate of the opportunity cost of buying scout is lower than we think it is.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2016, 02:12:57 pm »
+1

What RR needs to done - as I am sure he knows - is to prove that there are more situations than others (including me) generally think where it's worth buying scout. He needs to prove that our estimate of the opportunity cost of buying scout is lower than we think it is.
The problem is, many of you are biased against Scout. You automatically assume it's bad and you are willing to ignore evidence just to prevent your world from falling apart.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2016, 02:17:21 pm »
0

What RR needs to done - as I am sure he knows - is to prove that there are more situations than others (including me) generally think where it's worth buying scout. He needs to prove that our estimate of the opportunity cost of buying scout is lower than we think it is.
The problem is, many of you are biased against Scout. You automatically assume it's bad and you are willing to ignore evidence just to prevent your world from falling apart.

I am fairly new to this. I just 'discovered' this scout-meme thing a few days ago. But I could be persuaded: can you give a theoretical description of when/how you'd use scout?
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Awaclus

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2016, 02:27:30 pm »
+1

The problem is, many of you are biased against Scout. You automatically assume it's bad and you are willing to ignore evidence just to prevent your world from falling apart.

Stop projecting.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2016, 02:44:04 pm »
0

What RR needs to done - as I am sure he knows - is to prove that there are more situations than others (including me) generally think where it's worth buying scout. He needs to prove that our estimate of the opportunity cost of buying scout is lower than we think it is.
The problem is, many of you are biased against Scout. You automatically assume it's bad and you are willing to ignore evidence just to prevent your world from falling apart.

I am fairly new to this. I just 'discovered' this scout-meme thing a few days ago. But I could be persuaded: can you give a theoretical description of when/how you'd use scout?
Scout is a card with two prime purposes: it puts victory cards into your hand, and it reorders the top cards of your deck. It also has the added plus of being non-terminal.

So let's focus on the fact that it puts victory cards into your hand. This is obviously good in the end game where you don't want your next turn polluted by Duchies and Provinces, so you can draw 2-4 Victory cards and make it more likely that you can buy that last Province next turn. However, Scout can also combo with a deck full of alt-VP. Is Nobles the only draw for your engine? Put them in hand with Scout! Island is the only trashing? Speed up that process with Scout! Buying a lot of Duchies to help your Dukes? Maybe you can hit $5 next turn if you play Scout and draw three Duchies. Have Great Halls because they are better than nothing on the board that you're playing? Draw them with Scout! Harems? Scout has a solution for that. In a rush strategy, Scout usually isn't that good as it takes a valuable turn to pick one up. However, in a Gardens/Silk Road/Feodum slog, Scout can draw you a lot of cards and make your next turn that much better. Now, with all these victory cards in your hand, what can you do? If they are an Action-Victory hybrid, you can obviously play them. But what if they are a Silk Road or a Garden? You can play discard for benefit cards (Warehouse, Cellar, Inn, Horse Traders, Embassy, etc.) as there are tons of those. You can also use cards that like having victory cards in your hand, such as Madman, Crossroads, Baron, Tournament or Explorer. And Apothecary is often considered to be Scout's best combo, as Apothecary chokes on the green cards that Scout can pick up easily. Finally, Inheritance, an event, combos with Scout for obvious reasons.

Now let's focus on our second point: Scout reorders the top cards of your deck (assuming that you don't draw four Victory cards). When can reordering the top cards be a good idea? When you have a cantrip in your hand (anything that gives +1 card and +1 action) you can decide what card you want to draw. Already have $7? Put a Copper on top of your deck and save that Gold that you were going to draw with your Walled Village. With non-terminal weak draw, like Ruined Library, Moat, Mercanary and other cards that only give +1 card or +2 cards, you can put your treasure cards on top and save your action cards for next turn. Scout also helps cards that care about the top card of your deck, such as Mystic and Wishing Well. Scout can also combo with Spy particularly better than other cantrips, as you put the card that you want to draw with Spy on top of your deck, then you put a Curse/Copper/Ruin right under that card so that you can discard it with Spy. Doctor and Scout can be a combo, but not if you're hoping to trash Estates with Doctor! You can guarantee that Doctor will hit a few of your coppers, though. I will admit that the reordering part of Scout is not the strongest aspect of the card, but it is still something to look for.

Finally, Scout is non-terminal. What does this mean? This means the addition of Scout to your deck is less likely to hurt than a terminal card that is considered 'weak.' It also means that in a pinch, you can Prince Scout if you are desperate for a village. You can also find it with Golem for a village (if you find another non terminal, which could be another Scout!). Scout can also lower the price of Peddler and activate Conspirator, but it's unlikely that you should buy Scout just for that purpose.

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Re: Scout Archives
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2016, 03:07:33 pm »
+1

Am I supposed to list all the other cards that can serve those functions as well?
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