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[GendoIkari]

Ok, so here's the concept for the top half of our card:

India - Action, Reaction
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to more than it. If the trashed card is an action, +1 action. If the gained card is an action, play it.

We'll figure things out like "up to" vs "exactly" more, and vs , depending on balance and avoiding any broken combos due to playing the gained card immediately.

But first, let's get the mechanic for the reaction. We already agreed that this would react to "whenever any player gains a [card with some condition]". That condition could be based on card type, cost, or anything really.

Also remember that we can use "would gain" instead here, or "buys" instead of "gains", just depending on what the effect does.

Please PM me with your ideas for the reaction. Feel free to throw around ideas for open discussion here as well. I'll make the poll for reaction effects on Saturday.

[GendoIkari]

I don't have any ideas at the moment for what the reaction would actually do. But as for what it reacts to, one conditional gain could be "when a player gains a second card on a turn". Because the card itself is a gainer, you know it's possible to gain 2 cards per turn. Your opponent might not ever gain 2 cards on a turn, but in most setups, he probably will on some turns.

[Gubump]

"When any player gains a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player discards the top card of his deck and puts the gained card on top."

So you could do it to yourself when you gain a card you want on top of your deck, and you could also do it to your opponent when they gain a card they wouldn't want on top of their deck, such as a Victory or Curse card. Discards the top card for the same reason Sea Hag does: So that it can't completely wreck the opponent's next turn.

[GendoIkari]

Seems ok, but it does need some condition, it can't just react to any gain (based on what we voted previously).

[Gubump]

Seems ok, but it does need some condition, it can't just react to any gain (based on what we voted previously).

Okay, disregard that one then, I thought having a conditional one was optional.

"When any player gains an Action or Treasure card costing up to $5, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a copy of the gained card, setting it aside. At the start of your next turn, play the set aside card, then return it to the Supply."

So it turns itself into a one-shot but free version of whatever card was gained, as long as it's an Action or Treasure and costs no more than $5.

[spiralstaircase]

Most importantly, what alphabet are we going to use to name the reactions?

[spiralstaircase]

"When any player gains an Action or Treasure card costing up to $5, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a copy of the gained card, setting it aside. At the start of your next turn, play the set aside card, then return it to the Supply."

I was thinking along the same lines, back in part 13:

When any player gains a card, if it is an action, you may set this card aside.  If you do, at the start of your next turn, play this card as if it were the gained card.  This card is that card until it leaves play.

I like that your version helps track what was copied, though it comes at the cost of not being able to copy the last of a card.  Setting a $5 cost limit sounds good, and I like that yours is another chance for BM/Artificer type shenanigans.

[Gveoniz]

I feel that this would be either broken or pointless, but one possible reaction could be to gain from trash, something like this:

When a player gain a (??) card, you may discard this from your hand, if you do, gain a card from the trash costing less than it.

[enfynet]

What about reacting to a gained card with "Set this aside with an Action from your hand. At the start of your turn, play it, and return this to your hand."

Something like a one-shot Prince reaction?

[GendoIkari]

A lot of ideas have been around letting you play a card, which the main action already lets you do. Nothing automatically bad about having the reaction be a different version of the action (see Caravan Guard for the obvious example), but for most reaction cards, the reaction is a different thing.

[Roadrunner7671]

What about the broken Fortress combo?

[spiralstaircase]

What about the broken Fortress combo?

How about "Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, other than [India]?" or "If the gained card is an action other than [India], play it."?  That would stop you from chaining them.

[Roadrunner7671]

What about the broken Fortress combo?

How about "Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, other than [India]?" or "If the gained card is an action other than [India], play it."?  That would stop you from chaining them.

That would work.

[Marcory]

Reaction: When another player gains a card costing more than $4, you may set this aside; if you do, at the start of your turn, +$2 and return this to your hand.
++++++++++
In an ideal, world, this could be +$1 per every X in the gained card's cost, or +$1 when a card costing $4 or less is gained, but tracking it would be a nightmare.

[GendoIkari]

Reaction: When another player gains a card costing more than $4, you may set this aside; if you do, at the start of your turn, +$2 and return this to your hand.
++++++++++
In an ideal, world, this could be +$1 per every X in the gained card's cost, or +$1 when a card costing $4 or less is gained, but tracking it would be a nightmare.

See, given the complexity of the top, I'd prefer a simpler reaction like this. Though it should work when any player gains a card, yourself included.

[eHalcyon]

Keep in mind that the top already does something to gained action cards.  Maybe the reaction should be conditional to Treasure cards to avoid overlap and confusing timing.  Victory wouldn't work since Action-Victory is a thing.

Also keep in mind that simplicity remains important or the text may not fit on the card.

I don't like the idea of a reaction that gains because then you have to be super careful about turn order with 3+ players.  There will be cases where you need to know if another player is going to reveal before you do, and bad nesting interactions where you react to the reaction reacting to another reaction and so on.

[GendoIkari]

Keep in mind that the top already does something to gained action cards.  Maybe the reaction should be conditional to Treasure cards to avoid overlap and confusing timing.  Victory wouldn't work since Action-Victory is a thing.

Also keep in mind that simplicity remains important or the text may not fit on the card.

I don't like the idea of a reaction that gains because then you have to be super careful about turn order with 3+ players.  There will be cases where you need to know if another player is going to reveal before you do, and bad nesting interactions where you react to the reaction reacting to another reaction and so on.

I like all of this.

[spiralstaircase]

We already agreed that this would react to "whenever any player gains a [card with some condition]". That condition could be based on card type, cost, or anything really.

Did we decide that the condition had to relate to the card?  I'm thinking about Tunnel's reaction, if you can have "When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase" could we use "When a player gains a card other than during a Buy phase"?

[enfynet]

Looking at some current Reaction functions...

- Tunnel, Market Square, Trader, Beggar, Fools Gold all give treasure in their reaction.

- Horse Trader and Caravan Guard give bonuses to your next turn in their reaction.

 -Secret Chamber and Moat offer protection to Attacks in their reaction.

- Watchtower manipulates a gained card in it's reaction.

And this is going to react to whenever any player gains [some condition] right?

I think bonus to your next turn is the easiest reaction that doesn't get mucked up in multiplayer. I don't think card manipulation is a good idea for another player's cards. And we have 5 different "gain treasure" reactions already.

[GendoIkari]

We already agreed that this would react to "whenever any player gains a [card with some condition]". That condition could be based on card type, cost, or anything really.

Did we decide that the condition had to relate to the card?  I'm thinking about Tunnel's reaction, if you can have "When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase" could we use "When a player gains a card other than during a Buy phase"?

I don't think this question came up. The actual vote was on "When a player gains a [card with some condition]", which could be read either way. But I would say that "gains a card other than during a buy phase" fits in there.

[scott_pilgrim]

When a player gains a Treasure card, you may discard this.  If you do, gain a copy of that Treasure card, putting it into your hand [or on your deck or somewhere else].

I agree with eHalcyon that we want to avoid letting it react to gaining actions (or at least be very careful about that), because it can get really messy with actions being gained and played.  I think Treasures in general are weak enough that this idea would not be OP.  You use the top half if you want to gain and play an action, or the bottom half if you want to gain and play a treasure.  Since actions are generally better (and you can make better use of the flexibility there), it requires you to trash something first, while the treasure part does not.

Also, will there be an option to cut out the "If the trashed card is an action, +1 action" part?  It's not important to the concept at all and it would be a lot cleaner without it I think.

[eHalcyon]

I'm just going to assume that the +1 action line will be cut, because it's just extra complexity and power that doesn't add that much since you usually wouldn't want to trash an action anyway.

It's also worth mentioning that the top is already a stronger version of Remodel, thus worth $5+ even without the action.  The reaction should probably be on the weaker side or account for it some other way.  Having it react to treasure gaining may be enough, since it incentivizes using the card to gain a Treasure instead of an Action.

So, maybe something like this?

When any player gains a Treasure card, you may discard this from your hand.  If you do, +2 cards.

When a player gains a Treasure card, you may discard this.  If you do, gain a copy of that Treasure card, putting it into your hand [or on your deck or somewhere else].

That can still cause the weird multiplayer gain chains.  Suppose you gain a Harem.  Now you have to slow down and go around in turn order to see if anybody will use their reaction.  You may have to do it for every gain, even when nobody has the reaction in hand, because otherwise you'll give away information when you make a point of asking if anybody before you wants to react.  And even after you've gone around the circle once, you may have to go around a second time since a player who passed on reacting to the original gain may want to react to your use of the reaction (likely involving emptying piles).

Having it gain a specific Treasure (Copper, Silver or Gold) would help.  The pile is less likely to empty, so turn order won't be as much a concern.

But maybe it could do a similar thing without gaining?

When any player gains a Treasure card, you may discard this from your hand.  If you do, reveal a Treasure card from your discard pile and put it [into your hand/on top of your deck].

The nice thing is that it still has some symmetry with the top.  I worry that this is getting too lengthy though.

[Marcory]

Reaction: When another player gains a card costing more than $4, you may set this aside; if you do, at the start of your turn, +$2 and return this to your hand.
++++++++++
In an ideal, world, this could be +$1 per every X in the gained card's cost, or +$1 when a card costing $4 or less is gained, but tracking it would be a nightmare.

See, given the complexity of the top, I'd prefer a simpler reaction like this. Though it should work when any player gains a card, yourself included.

Then there's the question of discarding it or setting it aside for your next turn. The reactions are pretty much equivalent during your own turn (barring engines where you can draw it back), but discarding it during other people's turns makes the reaction weaker than setting it aside.

Would a 'discard this to gain 2 cards' reaction be too strong? Caravan Guard's reaction only replaces itself, while Horse Traders' reaction is related to the fact that HT itself is a discarder. That's why I suggested +$ instead, and setting the card aside to help with tracking. (It could, of course, be tweaked to 'when a player (including you) gains a card, you may set this aside; if you do, at the start of your next turn, . . . )

[eHalcyon]

Would a 'discard this to gain 2 cards' reaction be too strong? Caravan Guard's reaction only replaces itself, while Horse Traders' reaction is related to the fact that HT itself is a discarder. That's why I suggested +$ instead, and setting the card aside to help with tracking. (It could, of course, be tweaked to 'when a player (including you) gains a card, you may set this aside; if you do, at the start of your next turn, . . . )

You mean +2 cards, not gain 2 cards, right?  Caravan Guard's reaction also gives you the +$1 a turn earlier, which is the point, I think.  Replacing itself is nice, but if that was the only benefit then it would be worthless (it would be equivalent to a simple cantrip, weaker than Pearl Diver).

[GendoIkari]

Also, will there be an option to cut out the "If the trashed card is an action, +1 action" part?  It's not important to the concept at all and it would be a lot cleaner without it I think.

Yes, we'll figure out either changing the action-trashing bonus, or removing it completely. I had the same thought which I mentioned in part 15.