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Author Topic: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Results!)  (Read 8909 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2016, 09:16:58 pm »
+1

I didn't submit anything!  I just didn't have any ideas that I liked this time around.

Quote
Artisan
Types: Event
Cost: $2
+1 Buy
Gain a copy of the least expensive card you have in play.

Clarification: if several cards are tied for least expensive, you choose which one of them to gain a copy of.

This is a neat cost reduction card.  It reduces a target card exactly to $2, which can be huge, but it (usually?) takes effort to make it work.  Only working on a card in play prevents abuse with big VP cards.

The strongest interaction is with coin-producing cards, especially non-terminal ones.  With this event available, every copy of Grand Market will buy another GM, so as long as you don't play something cheaper.  Since GM produces +$2 on its own, you don't need to play anything else.

Also, a single Platinum will allow you to buy two more.

I'm not sure if that should be considered a bug or a feature.  I still like this event a lot though.

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Bootstraps
Types: Event
Cost: $6
Once per turn: Look through your discard pile. You may put a card from your discard pile into your hand. Play an Action card from your hand.

I don't really like the idea of playing an action card during the buy phase.  $6 is also really expensive for this.  I can't really imagine a scenario (apart from weird edge cases) where I would want to pay $6 just to play another action.  In most cases, I don't think a single additional Action is going to make up for the cost of $6 and 1 buy.  If it will, that Action is probably a King's Court that leads into a big chain... but then we're talking about an engine that probably should be able to run without needing Bootstraps.  Maybe I'm missing something here.

Quote
Border Crossing
Types: Event
Cost: $4
Move your Gaining token to an Action Supply pile (when you buy a card from that pile, you may gain a cheaper card.)

Sounds reasonable.  I don't have a lot to say about this one.

Quote
Call to Arms
Types: Event
Cost: $5
Flip your Journey Token over (it starts face up)
If it's face up, each other player discards down to three cards. Gain a Gold for each card discarded in this way.

I think this starts strong and scales poorly.  In 2p, I'm usually gaining 2 Gold from this.  That's already really good!  You're essentially buying two Gold for $5 each and getting an unblockable discard attack for free.  But in 4p, you're gaining up to 6 Gold.  That's ridiculous.  It also adds to first player advantage with 3+ players, since the first person to trigger this will weaken the effect if a following player also goes for it.

I like the idea of a powerful event that changes up play style, but making the game into a discard-heavy Gold flood doesn't sound all that fun to me.

Quote
Discovery
Types: Event
Cost: $5
Gain an Action card costing up to $4.
Look through your discard pile and put a card from it on top of your deck.

It's Armory+ as an Event.  Sounds reasonable, but it doesn't interest me.

Quote
Dragon's Offerings
Types: Event
Cost: $6
Trash a card costing less than this from the Supply. Put this in front of yourself. At the start of each of your turns, if this is in front of you, you may gain a non-Victory card costing less than a card another player gained on his previous turn.

This feels overly complicated for what it does.  It works for cards gained by any other player, something that Smugglers is deliberately worded to avoid (probably due to increased tracking difficulties).  The king-of-the-hill nature of it also feels un-Dominion-ly to me. 

I think there's a real danger of it having Fancy Balance Issues.  The ideal case would be that it has value in picking up some extra engine components ($5s especially would be cool), enough to make the $6 investment an efficient one.  If the potential value is low, people will just buy Gold or $5 kingdom cards directly instead.  But if the potential value is high, I imagine people will just fight over it, and then everybody loses.  I can't afford to let you gain so many free engine components so I need to buy this away from you.  If I do it soon enough, your investment is wasted.  And if you buy it back from me (because you also can't afford to let me get a bunch of free components) then my investment is wasted.  And so on until somebody whiffs or the game ends from piles being trashed out.

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Event
Types: Event
Cost: $1
Each other player gains a copper putting it into their hand.

Unrestricted Copper attacks already scale poorly due to the size of the Copper pile.  Making it available as a cheap Event probably makes it much worse, if the scrapped on-gain discard attack (mentioned in the Secret Histories of Hinterland) is any indication.

Quote
Odyssey
Types: Event
Cost: $4
The player to your left moves your +1 Card and +1 Action tokens to an Action Supply pile (when you play a card from that pile, you first get +1 Card, +1 Action).

Hard to say, but I feel like this would be a very binary card.  Either it's totally worthless (when there is a bad target on the board, like Chapel) or it's amazing (and it would be amazing on most cards).  Pathfinding is $8 and Lost Arts is $6.  Even with an opponent choosing, I think this would have to cost at least $6, probably $8+.

Quote
Plague
Types: Event
Cost: $0
Pay the cost of an action card in the supply to set it aside as a plague card. At the end of the game plague cards score an additional -1VP.

Clarification: Set aside cards never become part of any players deck.

I'm going to assume that the wording is inaccurate and that all copies of the set aside card should be affected.  I'd recommend specifying that the card gets set aside under the Plague Event.

I think the idea is interesting, but this version ends up being political.  I can't think of a good way to fix it.

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Prediction
Types: Event
Cost: $1
+1 Buy
Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it on the bottom.

I have a soft spot for effects that let you selectively put cards together for a future turn.  I like it, but I think this could be buffed to be more impactful.  Maybe something like, "+2 Cards, put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck".

Quote
Refuge
Types: Event
Cost: $1
+2 Cards; +1 Buy
Once per turn: Each player (including you) may discard an Action card. If they do, they gain an Action card costing up to $5.

Clarification: You can only buy this once per turn.

I think this could be cool.  Make good use of a dead action in hand, or gamble on drawing one with the Event if you don't have one already.  Other players get to discard to gain as well, but the cost is (hopefully) higher for them than for you.

Quote
Salvage Yard
Types: Event
Cost: $1
Discard any number of cards from your hand. Gain a card from the trash costing up to $2 per card discarded.

This card is ambiguously worded.  I discard 2 cards.  Now, do I:

A) gain 1 card from the trash costing up to $4; or
B) gain 2 cards costing up to $2 each?

I assume A is intended because B would be terrible.

The problem with this event is that the trash usually doesn't have good stuff in it.  That's why Rogue is also a trashing attack and Graverobber makes it more likely that good cards get trashed.

Quote
Time Walk
Types: Event
Cost: $5
Put your Duration token on a non-duration Action-supply pile. At the end of the turn, instead of discarding the action from play, set it aside and play the action again at the start of your turn, discarding it from play at the end of that turn.

I think this is comparable to Lost Arts in a lot of ways, so it should cost at least $6.  Other than that, I think it sounds alright.  I don't understand the name.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2016, 09:22:22 pm »
0

Discovery: I like it. It's kind of overshadowed by Summon, but summon can be slightly OP anyway.

Oh, I already thought Discovery was kind of boring.  I didn't even think of the similarity to Summon.

I guess it will be obvious which card is mine now, but maybe I misunderstood some "hard coded" rule when I designed this...

The idea behind Bootstraps is to "reset" your turn. It's not cheap, but the implications is that you can do something better if you had another chance. Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, or so the saying goes.

Ahh.  Yeah, Bootstraps as submitted doesn't do what you want.  With that in mind... I'm still not really a fan.  For this "reset" to be worthwhile you still need to generate more than $6, and this will be without all the cards you played in your first go at it.  It seems really niche, and it just extends the downtime for other players.
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Accatitippi

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2016, 02:08:28 am »
+1

Quote
Hard to say, but I feel like this would be a very binary card.
Either it's totally worthless (when there is a bad target on
the board, like Chapel) or it's amazing (and it would be
amazing on most cards).  Pathfinding is $8 and Lost Arts is
$6.  Even with an opponent choosing, I think this would have
to cost at least $6, probably $8+.
I'm a big fan of Odyssey (except for the name, actually), and I think 4c for it is a fair price, since it's an event that's much worse the later you get it (since you already have built some). In a similar way to Chapel, it's much more fun if you sell it for cheap, as knowing exactly what is the board layout before you start committing to a plan is simply more interesting.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2016, 06:17:08 am »
0

Odyssey and Border Crossing seem the most interesting to me, not to mention that they make sense thematically (which is a big one for me in a game which features a lot of unthematic cards). Border Crossing is probably well-priced but Odyssey is an Event I am not sure about so I think that it would have to be playtested intensively until one could settle at a balanced cost.
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trivialknot

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2016, 09:39:57 pm »
0

Quote
Bootstraps
Types: Event
Cost: $6
Once per turn: Look through your discard pile. You may put a card from your discard pile into your hand. Play an Action card from your hand.
I had an idea for an event that was similar to this.  My event would give you an extra turn, but skip your cleanup phase (discarding no cards from your hand or from play, and drawing no new cards).  In effect, it was an +Action event.  I priced it at $2, although I never playtested it.

Compared to my card, I don't really like this one.  It's prohibitively expensive, it depends on your discard, and it's confusing rules-wise.  But obviously I like the underlying idea of buying actions with an event.  It's like a coin of the realm that you don't even have to buy.  Suddenly you can make a deck with nothing but terminal draw and money.

Quote
Dragon's Offerings
Types: Event
Cost: $6
Trash a card costing less than this from the Supply. Put this in front of yourself. At the start of each of your turns, if this is in front of you, you may gain a non-Victory card costing less than a card another player gained on his previous turn.
This seems highly game-warping.  If anyone buys it, nobody can ignore it.  I don't really like the unignorable aspect.  The supply-trashing seems designed to end games, but if it really comes to ending the game that way I think maybe the game isn't fun anymore.

Quote
Odyssey
Types: Event
Cost: $4
The player to your left moves your +1 Card and +1 Action tokens to an Action Supply pile (when you play a card from that pile, you first get +1 Card, +1 Action).
Finally, the scout buff we've all been waiting for.  Hmmm... an even better target would be Prince.

Quote
Plague
Types: Event
Cost: $0
Pay the cost of an action card in the supply to set it aside as a plague card. At the end of the game plague cards score an additional -1VP.

Clarification: Set aside cards never become part of any players deck.
Like a previous commenter, I prefer a set price rather than a variable price.  Plague certainly isn't stronger when placed on expensive cards, if anything it's weaker.  But I think this is an interesting event.  It incentivizes variety with VP.  In multiplayer, you want someone else to spend their money on it.

Quote
Time Walk
Types: Event
Cost: $5
Put your Duration token on a non-duration Action-supply pile. At the end of the turn, instead of discarding the action from play, set it aside and play the action again at the start of your turn, discarding it from play at the end of that turn.
Playing an extra action without having to draw it or spend an action, it's like Pathfinding and Lost Arts put together.  I don't think there's any correct price point for that.  I am also confused about the rules for one-shots.

I wanted to comment on other cards but I have to go right now.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2016, 04:40:34 am »
+1

I want to comment on what I consider to be the most interesting card, Odyssey. The issue of the card is that it is on the one hand, as Accatitippi has pointed out, something you wanna get very early before you have committed yourself so it should cost 4$ and on the other hand, as eHalcyon has pointed out, potentially very powerful and thus too cheap for 4$.

I quickly went over all Dominion cards and conservatively (i.e. including rather too many than too few) picked out the ones which I guess will benefit the least from getting cantrip-ified:

Base: Chapel, Workshop, Bureaucrat, Feast, Thief, Library, Mine, Adventurer
Intrigue: Baron, Coppersmith
Seaside: Smugglers, Island, Salvager, Treasure Map, Explorer, Outpost, Tactician
Alchemy: Transmute, Possession
Prosperity: Watchtower, Bishop, Counting House, Mint, Expand, Forge
Cornucopia: -
Hinterlands: Jack of all Trades, Noble Brigand
Dark Ages: Beggar, Death Cart, Graverobber, Pillage, Altar
Guilds: Stonemason, Merchant Guild
Adventures: Duplicate, Transmogrify, Distant Lands
Promos: Prince

About potential pattern: one-shots and very expensive cards (>6$) do not get played that often, some cards with weak effects are in there (Thief, Transmute, Stonemason) and cards of which you never want a lot even if they are cantrip-ified (Counting House, Outpost, Tactician).
My conservative pick includes about 40 cards out of roughly 240 Kingdom cards so 1 in every 6 cards would not benefit that much from Odyssey.

Please note again that this is a conservative pick so there might be ample of cards in there which others might consider to benefit significantly from getting cantrip-ified. For example Adventurer becomes a GM without the extra buy so you could argue that it doesn't belong on the  list. Coppersmith and Salvager are also dubious choices, cantripified Jack of all Trades might just become an even more straightforward BM enabler, Noble Brigands becomes a Peddler with a bonus and so on.

So after going very quickly over all cards to get a rough idea of the ratio I gotta agree with eHalcyon, there are too few cards which do not massively benefit from being cantrip-ified which is why Odyssey might have to cost more.
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Accatitippi

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2016, 05:40:12 am »
+1

I want to comment on what I consider to be the most interesting card, Odyssey. The issue of the card is that it is on the one hand, as Accatitippi has pointed out, something you wanna get very early before you have committed yourself so it should cost 4$ and on the other hand, as eHalcyon has pointed out, potentially very powerful and thus too cheap for 4$.

I quickly went over all Dominion cards and conservatively (i.e. including rather too many than too few) picked out the ones which I guess will benefit the least from getting cantrip-ified:

Base: Chapel, Workshop, Bureaucrat, Feast, Thief, Library, Mine, Adventurer
Intrigue: Baron, Coppersmith
Seaside: Smugglers, Island, Salvager, Treasure Map, Explorer, Outpost, Tactician
Alchemy: Transmute, Possession
Prosperity: Watchtower, Bishop, Counting House, Mint, Expand, Forge
Cornucopia: -
Hinterlands: Jack of all Trades, Noble Brigand
Dark Ages: Beggar, Death Cart, Graverobber, Pillage, Altar
Guilds: Stonemason, Merchant Guild
Adventures: Duplicate, Transmogrify, Distant Lands
Promos: Prince

About potential pattern: one-shots and very expensive cards (>6$) do not get played that often, some cards with weak effects are in there (Thief, Transmute, Stonemason) and cards of which you never want a lot even if they are cantrip-ified (Counting House, Outpost, Tactician).
My conservative pick includes about 40 cards out of roughly 240 Kingdom cards so 1 in every 6 cards would not benefit that much from Odyssey.

Please note again that this is a conservative pick so there might be ample of cards in there which others might consider to benefit significantly from getting cantrip-ified. For example Adventurer becomes a GM without the extra buy so you could argue that it doesn't belong on the  list. Coppersmith and Salvager are also dubious choices, cantripified Jack of all Trades might just become an even more straightforward BM enabler, Noble Brigands becomes a Peddler with a bonus and so on.

So after going very quickly over all cards to get a rough idea of the ratio I gotta agree with eHalcyon, there are too few cards which do not massively benefit from being cantrip-ified which is why Odyssey might have to cost more.

I do not totally agree with your list, since for example I would include most mandatory trashers, and exclude some stuff like Merchant Guild or Duplicates which are crazy in multiples. Anyway, going with your estimate of "1/6 of cards are weak Odyssey targets", the probability of not hitting any of those in any given kingdom is roughly 16% (I simply did 5/6^10), which is acceptably low, considering that even on a kingdom exclusively made of awesome targets, you opponent will make sure to offer you the one that works worst with the other cards.
Yes, at 4 on some boards it will be a no-brainer, but on those very boards the decision of what to Odissey is extremely interesting and game-defining, and for me this more than makes up for it to be a easy buy on some boards. If it were more expensive (say costing 6, since I can see 5 working out allright), the boards with obvious targets will suffer because nobody will buy Odyssey (while at four I might decide that cantrip adventurers are worth skipping an early buy, wasting an adventurer buy to cantripize adventurers is a much easier offer to turn off), and at the same time the all-stars boards will also get less interesting, since the Odyssey result won't affect your deck planning and building nearly as much.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 05:41:41 am by Accatitippi »
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2016, 06:16:34 am »
+1

I want to comment on what I consider to be the most interesting card, Odyssey. The issue of the card is that it is on the one hand, as Accatitippi has pointed out, something you wanna get very early before you have committed yourself so it should cost 4$ and on the other hand, as eHalcyon has pointed out, potentially very powerful and thus too cheap for 4$.

I quickly went over all Dominion cards and conservatively (i.e. including rather too many than too few) picked out the ones which I guess will benefit the least from getting cantrip-ified:

Base: Chapel, Workshop, Bureaucrat, Feast, Thief, Library, Mine, Adventurer
Intrigue: Baron, Coppersmith
Seaside: Smugglers, Island, Salvager, Treasure Map, Explorer, Outpost, Tactician
Alchemy: Transmute, Possession
Prosperity: Watchtower, Bishop, Counting House, Mint, Expand, Forge
Cornucopia: -
Hinterlands: Jack of all Trades, Noble Brigand
Dark Ages: Beggar, Death Cart, Graverobber, Pillage, Altar
Guilds: Stonemason, Merchant Guild
Adventures: Duplicate, Transmogrify, Distant Lands
Promos: Prince

About potential pattern: one-shots and very expensive cards (>6$) do not get played that often, some cards with weak effects are in there (Thief, Transmute, Stonemason) and cards of which you never want a lot even if they are cantrip-ified (Counting House, Outpost, Tactician).
My conservative pick includes about 40 cards out of roughly 240 Kingdom cards so 1 in every 6 cards would not benefit that much from Odyssey.

Please note again that this is a conservative pick so there might be ample of cards in there which others might consider to benefit significantly from getting cantrip-ified. For example Adventurer becomes a GM without the extra buy so you could argue that it doesn't belong on the  list. Coppersmith and Salvager are also dubious choices, cantripified Jack of all Trades might just become an even more straightforward BM enabler, Noble Brigands becomes a Peddler with a bonus and so on.

So after going very quickly over all cards to get a rough idea of the ratio I gotta agree with eHalcyon, there are too few cards which do not massively benefit from being cantrip-ified which is why Odyssey might have to cost more.

I do not totally agree with your list, since for example I would include most mandatory trashers, and exclude some stuff like Merchant Guild or Duplicates which are crazy in multiples. Anyway, going with your estimate of "1/6 of cards are weak Odyssey targets", the probability of not hitting any of those in any given kingdom is roughly 16% (I simply did 5/6^10), which is acceptably low, considering that even on a kingdom exclusively made of awesome targets, you opponent will make sure to offer you the one that works worst with the other cards.
Yes, at 4 on some boards it will be a no-brainer, but on those very boards the decision of what to Odissey is extremely interesting and game-defining, and for me this more than makes up for it to be a easy buy on some boards. If it were more expensive (say costing 6, since I can see 5 working out allright), the boards with obvious targets will suffer because nobody will buy Odyssey (while at four I might decide that cantrip adventurers are worth skipping an early buy, wasting an adventurer buy to cantripize adventurers is a much easier offer to turn off), and at the same time the all-stars boards will also get less interesting, since the Odyssey result won't affect your deck planning and building nearly as much.
About the list, I did not put a lot of thought in it so I think that one could easily come up with a far more precise list.
About the probability, 16% is indeed fairly small. But I think my list is fairly conservative so if e.g. half of the cards on the list are actually decent when they are cantrip-ified we would end up with 20/240 = 1/12 and a probability of 40% to not hit any of them in a Kingdom.
I agree that Odyssey should be tested at a cost of 4 or 5. 6 is definitely too high. Pathfinding and Lost Arts change cards of which you already have some in your deck whereas with Recover your opponent will choose a card which you do not have. Even if its cantripified version is pretty good it might be too late in the game to get enough of them and benefit from your investment into Recover.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2016, 05:00:14 pm »
+1

I agree with some of the points being made about Odyssey.  It is certainly different enough that it's not obvious how it should be priced.  But I think $4 is a good place to start testing.  With any card in Dominion, and I think even more so with events, it's more important for a card to be fun than to be balanced.  Usually being priced "fairly" makes the card more fun, but not always.  Chapel is probably cheaper than the "fair" price, but Donald decided it was more fun overall for it to cost $2.

So even if Odyssey is going to be super-strong sometimes at $4, I think that the $4 price is overall more fun than a $6+ price.  I think the times when it will add the most to the game are the times when it will make you go for a card that you wouldn't normally go for.  As an example let's say Mine.  If Odyssey costs $4, you can open with it, and it's not so bad, you just spent $4 to cantripify Mine, and you can play the rest of the game with cantrip Mine.  If it costs $6+, you have to wait until you can get it, and by then, it's probably not worth spending that much just to cantripify a card you're not excited about anyway.  So I think the most interesting case (when there's a borderline-level target) goes away when Odyssey is too expensive.

Now in the crazier case, where the targets are all strong when cantripified, Odyssey feels underpriced at $4, but I think a lower price still makes the game overall more fun.  If it costs $6+, whoever can spike Odyssey first is at a huge advantage, because they know what card is going to be cantripified earlier, and can load up on them sooner.  I think giving both players the opportunity to open with it reduces the swinginess and gives players the opportunity to plan early on how to take advantage of the cantrip card.

Now maybe there's an argument that having to adapt part-way through to whatever the opponent names makes it more fun.  I think that's a good argument for a higher price actually, but that's just in the case that there's no good target (or bad target depending on whose perspective you're looking at it from).  But I think the lower price would make Odyssey games better overall.
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Accatitippi

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2016, 05:19:58 pm »
+1

Yes, I agree that an expensive Odyssey would be very swingy on a board with no bad targets:
A spikes 6 turn 3, gets Card X Odysseyed. Starts loading up on it.
B gets to 6 turn 8, but hey, only four copies of Card X are left. He doesn't even bother buying Odyssey, since now there's an obvious target.
And if B bought more Xs before Odysseying, A would just choose another card and leave him with a deck full of mediocrity.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2016, 05:24:23 pm »
+1

The thing is though, Odyssey is sometimes useless if they use it on Chapel, Remake (because trashing isn't optional), Ruins (they're an action supply pile), Thief, Prince, Feast, Treasure Map (maybe), etc.

I still like it. It might be a tad cooler (but weaker) if your opponent could move the tokens to different piles, but maybe not.
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Accatitippi

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2016, 05:48:25 pm »
+2

The thing is though, Odyssey is sometimes useless if they use it on Chapel, Remake (because trashing isn't optional), Ruins (they're an action supply pile), Thief, Prince, Feast, Treasure Map (maybe), etc.

I still like it. It might be a tad cooler (but weaker) if your opponent could move the tokens to different piles, but maybe not.

Sign me up for cantrip ruins any time!  ;D

"then I play a Peddler, drawing a Market Square, which I play, oh nice, a Lab, and what do we have here, a Village and a Pearl Diver that actually does something! And with all those +Buys, I think I'll get a bunch more of these free useless cantrips, please."
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2016, 06:11:32 pm »
0

The thing is though, Odyssey is sometimes useless if they use it on Chapel, Remake (because trashing isn't optional), Ruins (they're an action supply pile), Thief, Prince, Feast, Treasure Map (maybe), etc.

I still like it. It might be a tad cooler (but weaker) if your opponent could move the tokens to different piles, but maybe not.

Sign me up for cantrip ruins any time!  ;D

"then I play a Peddler, drawing a Market Square, which I play, oh nice, a Lab, and what do we have here, a Village and a Pearl Diver that actually does something! And with all those +Buys, I think I'll get a bunch more of these free useless cantrips, please."
Hmmm, good point. But would it apply to all those Ruins or just the named one? Same issue with Knights...
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2016, 06:37:48 pm »
0

Hmmm, good point. But would it apply to all those Ruins or just the named one? Same issue with Knights...

They're all from the same pile, so yes it works.



Re: price, there's a cost between $4 and $6+, guys...
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2016, 03:03:27 am »
+1

I agree with some of the points being made about Odyssey.  It is certainly different enough that it's not obvious how it should be priced.  But I think $4 is a good place to start testing.  With any card in Dominion, and I think even more so with events, it's more important for a card to be fun than to be balanced.  Usually being priced "fairly" makes the card more fun, but not always.  Chapel is probably cheaper than the "fair" price, but Donald decided it was more fun overall for it to cost $2.

So even if Odyssey is going to be super-strong sometimes at $4, I think that the $4 price is overall more fun than a $6+ price.  I think the times when it will add the most to the game are the times when it will make you go for a card that you wouldn't normally go for.  As an example let's say Mine.  If Odyssey costs $4, you can open with it, and it's not so bad, you just spent $4 to cantripify Mine, and you can play the rest of the game with cantrip Mine.  If it costs $6+, you have to wait until you can get it, and by then, it's probably not worth spending that much just to cantripify a card you're not excited about anyway.  So I think the most interesting case (when there's a borderline-level target) goes away when Odyssey is too expensive.

Now in the crazier case, where the targets are all strong when cantripified, Odyssey feels underpriced at $4, but I think a lower price still makes the game overall more fun.  If it costs $6+, whoever can spike Odyssey first is at a huge advantage, because they know what card is going to be cantripified earlier, and can load up on them sooner.  I think giving both players the opportunity to open with it reduces the swinginess and gives players the opportunity to plan early on how to take advantage of the cantrip card.

Now maybe there's an argument that having to adapt part-way through to whatever the opponent names makes it more fun.  I think that's a good argument for a higher price actually, but that's just in the case that there's no good target (or bad target depending on whose perspective you're looking at it from).  But I think the lower price would make Odyssey games better overall.
This. I totally agree that one should start to test at the lower price, i.e. 4$.
The only slight disagreement I have is that a Kingdom in which there is an obvious choice for Odyssey might not be "fun" as it might be too scripted if Odyssey is too cheap. Everybody will buy it on turn 1 or 2 and then rush-pile the cantrip-ified card.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2016, 11:10:53 am »
+1

Preliminary Results:

Odyssey - 19
Border Crossing - 13
Plague - 9
Artisan - 7
Salvage Yard - 6

Discovery - 5
Refuge - 5
Time Walk - 5
Event - 3
Bootstraps - 2
Call to Arms - 2
Prediction - 2
Dragon's Offerings - 1
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Voting!)
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2016, 11:12:19 am »
0

Quote
Artisan
Types: Event
Cost: $2
+1 Buy
Gain a copy of the least expensive card you have in play.

Clarification: if several cards are tied for least expensive, you choose which one of them to gain a copy of.

Quote
Border Crossing
Types: Event
Cost: $4
Move your Gaining token to an Action Supply pile (when you buy a card from that pile, you may gain a cheaper card.)

Quote
Odyssey
Types: Event
Cost: $4
The player to your left moves your +1 Card and +1 Action tokens to an Action Supply pile (when you play a card from that pile, you first get +1 Card, +1 Action).

Quote
Plague
Types: Event
Cost: $0
Pay the cost of an action card in the supply to set it aside as a plague card. At the end of the game plague cards score an additional -1VP.

Clarification: Set aside cards never become part of any players deck.

Quote
Salvage Yard
Types: Event
Cost: $1
Discard any number of cards from your hand. Gain a card from the trash costing up to $2 per card discarded.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Finalists!)
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2016, 01:34:56 pm »
0

I just noticed that I failed to copy the voting instructions. Here they are, in case anyone wasn't sure what to do:

Submit your votes to me via this forum's messaging system. To vote, give each card a score from 0 to 10. (It is recommended, but not required, that you give at least one card a 0 and at least one card a 10, to maximize your voting input.) The winner will be the card with the highest sum. Feel free to discuss the cards (but not your scores) in this thread.

I will extend voting for another two days.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Finalists!)
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2016, 05:16:18 am »
0

Just a short note, I think that Border Crossing could be tried with gain instead of buy. Concerning balance, as most of the times you gain a card except via buying it costs 4$ or less I doubt that this makes the event that much better (such that it could be too cheap for 5$).
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King Leon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Finalists!)
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2016, 05:49:53 pm »
0

We should also add any trashing effect to Salvage Yard, so that this event is not a dead card, when no trashers are in the kindom.

What about:
Salvage Yard
Types: Event
Cost: $1
Choose one:

Discard any number of cards from your hand. Gain a card from the trash costing up to $2 per card discarded.

or

Trash a card from your hand.
You may a card costing less, which is not a Victory card.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 02:13:19 pm by King Leon »
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Finalists!)
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2016, 11:18:53 am »
+3

Results:

Odyssey (scott_pilgrim) - 77
Border Crossing (spiralstaircase) - 49
Artisan (Accatitippi) - 41
Salvage Yard (LibraryAdventurer) - 41
Plague (RobertJ) - 21

Clear winner here, congrats scott_pilgrim!
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 3: Event (Finalists!)
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2016, 12:50:14 am »
+2

Results:

Odyssey (scott_pilgrim) - 77
Border Crossing (spiralstaircase) - 49
Artisan (Accatitippi) - 41
Salvage Yard (LibraryAdventurer) - 41
Plague (RobertJ) - 21

Clear winner here, congrats scott_pilgrim!

Congrats scott pilgrim!
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