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junkers

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #550 on: May 17, 2016, 06:03:44 am »
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So I will have to post pictures later.  If I forget, feel free to remind me.
Don't want you going to too much trouble, but if you do remember the next time you have them out, I'll be far from upset.

To answer your question about the two pile idea I had, my idea was only that the bottom card would be much less powerful, or would turn into a cantrip perhaps only during the season of winter, but otherwise would be quite powerful.  Perhaps the top card would be a little less interesting, so you have to decide whether you will buy through the top cards to get to the powerful bottom card.
Something that clearly puts a clock on itself like that is going to be quite difficult to design.

Are you thinking that the top part would be $2-$3 to encourage digging, or will the underlying card be incentive enough, even if the top is $5-6?

Before you even get there, I guess you've got to decide on a super strong function that has to be buried and only printed five times...

Your idea about starting the seasons at a different time is a good one.  I think adding a seasons card that says "Setup: start the seasons marker in Winter" would be an interesting twist :)
And it's here where I should probably go back and read the rest of the thread to here the dev's justifications for why it's a one year game, and why each season is five turns exactly...
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Nflickner

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #551 on: May 17, 2016, 10:48:44 am »
+2

And it's here where I should probably go back and read the rest of the thread to here the dev's justifications for why it's a one year game, and why each season is five turns exactly...

I think the rationale is simply that most dominion games last around 18-22 turns.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #552 on: May 17, 2016, 02:55:39 pm »
+4

And it's here where I should probably go back and read the rest of the thread to here the dev's justifications for why it's a one year game, and why each season is five turns exactly...

I think the rationale is simply that most dominion games last around 18-22 turns.

That's part of it, but not the only reason. It's true that a standard game of Dominion, or at least a game played by halfway skilled players, will be over after about that number of turns. In fact, during playtesting we made the experience that only few games with certain kinds of kingdoms enter the second year. But of course the game is not bound to end after one year.

Still, you can map Seasons to game phases rather well. The first Season is your opening phase. 5 turns ensures you will always be able to play your opening buys in Spring, unless of course some Brigands or other criminal scum discards them. (This is also the reason why i personally prefer to have cards that do something special when played in Spring to cost $4 or less, so you can always open with them. Well, as you see, we have an exception, too.) So, here's an advantage of 5. If we made it 4, not only would the game usually end in Spring instead of Winter, but we also had some people not be able to play their opening buys in Spring. This sucks for some cards, like Student, or Sojourner. What about 6? Well, it just feels too long, the Seasons drift apart, and there's no real advantage over 5. And, well, 5 is a nice number to remember.

The other Seasons are not as tight, but here's the thought behind them: If Spring is opening, Summer is buildup. In Fall (Autumn for the classy ones), you should have your deck running and doing your last preparations to green. Winter is where you green and your deck slowly degrades. And second Spring, well, it's not strictly the same pattern as the first, but still has a similarity: A relatively weak deck with quite a few VP cards. Of course, second Spring still isn't as clearly defined as the first. Which isn't that much of a problem, because first, you don't often get there. Second, if you do, it's probably because you are playing a special kind of kingdom, such as a slog, and then most of the other things don't apply as much either. And: The fact that you might run into a second Spring creates an interesting turning point. If we had the year take 24 turns, it would very, very rarely happen to get into year two. With 20 turns, it feels like something that might happen, and an experienced player might be able to guess it beforehand.

Of course, all that's theory. If you try to set up a kingdom designed to prove how useful Scout is, you might not be finished after year 3...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:58:19 pm by Asper »
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Nflickner

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #553 on: May 17, 2016, 06:18:38 pm »
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And it's here where I should probably go back and read the rest of the thread to here the dev's justifications for why it's a one year game, and why each season is five turns exactly...

I think the rationale is simply that most dominion games last around 18-22 turns.

That's part of it, but not the only reason. It's true that a standard game of Dominion, or at least a game played by halfway skilled players, will be over after about that number of turns. In fact, during playtesting we made the experience that only few games with certain kinds of kingdoms enter the second year. But of course the game is not bound to end after one year.

Still, you can map Seasons to game phases rather well. The first Season is your opening phase. 5 turns ensures you will always be able to play your opening buys in Spring, unless of course some Brigands or other criminal scum discards them. (This is also the reason why i personally prefer to have cards that do something special when played in Spring to cost $4 or less, so you can always open with them. Well, as you see, we have an exception, too.) So, here's an advantage of 5. If we made it 4, not only would the game usually end in Spring instead of Winter, but we also had some people not be able to play their opening buys in Spring. This sucks for some cards, like Student, or Sojourner. What about 6? Well, it just feels too long, the Seasons drift apart, and there's no real advantage over 5. And, well, 5 is a nice number to remember.

The other Seasons are not as tight, but here's the thought behind them: If Spring is opening, Summer is buildup. In Fall (Autumn for the classy ones), you should have your deck running and doing your last preparations to green. Winter is where you green and your deck slowly degrades. And second Spring, well, it's not strictly the same pattern as the first, but still has a similarity: A relatively weak deck with quite a few VP cards. Of course, second Spring still isn't as clearly defined as the first. Which isn't that much of a problem, because first, you don't often get there. Second, if you do, it's probably because you are playing a special kind of kingdom, such as a slog, and then most of the other things don't apply as much either. And: The fact that you might run into a second Spring creates an interesting turning point. If we had the year take 24 turns, it would very, very rarely happen to get into year two. With 20 turns, it feels like something that might happen, and an experienced player might be able to guess it beforehand.

Of course, all that's theory. If you try to set up a kingdom designed to prove how useful Scout is, you might not be finished after year 3...

Thanks Asper, the last part about the different seasons and what they are generally for is quite helpful.  In my games of Seasons, we found that Spring went extremely fast, to the point where we almost decided to adust it so that the marker doesn't move after the first turn, but then we kept to the rules :)  The other seasons then slow down quite a bit. 
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Nflickner

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #554 on: May 17, 2016, 06:23:15 pm »
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On a random note, I just purchased Tabletop simulator, and I think I correctly uploaded the seasons file that CL posted earlier in the thread, but I don't know how to access it in an actual Dominion app to play with in Tabletop Sim.  How do I find it in the game?  I know you've worked with it before Asper, so I'm hoping you will be able to help me with my query.  Thanks :)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #555 on: May 17, 2016, 06:52:59 pm »
0

On a random note, I just purchased Tabletop simulator, and I think I correctly uploaded the seasons file that CL posted earlier in the thread, but I don't know how to access it in an actual Dominion app to play with in Tabletop Sim.  How do I find it in the game?  I know you've worked with it before Asper, so I'm hoping you will be able to help me with my query.  Thanks :)
I was going to get TS but I'm waiting till it goes on sale. I'd love to play with you when I get it!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #556 on: May 17, 2016, 07:51:55 pm »
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I have TS, and I'll be happy to play Seasons with someone sometimes, but I'll be busy most of the next two weeks...

Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #557 on: May 17, 2016, 09:47:20 pm »
+1

On a random note, I just purchased Tabletop simulator, and I think I correctly uploaded the seasons file that CL posted earlier in the thread, but I don't know how to access it in an actual Dominion app to play with in Tabletop Sim.  How do I find it in the game?  I know you've worked with it before Asper, so I'm hoping you will be able to help me with my query.  Thanks :)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Dominion app". TS has no apps. It has elements, like cards, tokens and so on, and you can drag them around and do stuff with them. It's a physics simulator. Like with actual cards, you can either use them to actually play the game, or just throw them in another player's face. Long story short, TS just loads the elements and knows no rules, therefore what you are looking for is not an app, but the actual components, like cards and tokens, which you should be able to find in the TS Workshop. You can also just copy a game when playing with somebody who already has it, or at least i imagine you should be able to do that. And of course i encourage you to buy/own the games you download.
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Nflickner

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #558 on: May 17, 2016, 10:01:51 pm »
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On a random note, I just purchased Tabletop simulator, and I think I correctly uploaded the seasons file that CL posted earlier in the thread, but I don't know how to access it in an actual Dominion app to play with in Tabletop Sim.  How do I find it in the game?  I know you've worked with it before Asper, so I'm hoping you will be able to help me with my query.  Thanks :)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Dominion app". TS has no apps. It has elements, like cards, tokens and so on, and you can drag them around and do stuff with them. It's a physics simulator. Like with actual cards, you can either use them to actually play the game, or just throw them in another player's face. Long story short, TS just loads the elements and knows no rules, therefore what you are looking for is not an app, but the actual components, like cards and tokens, which you should be able to find in the TS Workshop. You can also just copy a game when playing with somebody who already has it, or at least i imagine you should be able to do that. And of course i encourage you to buy/own the games you download.

Yeah, I'm familiar with how TS works in terms of how it is a physics engine.  I've loaded one of the Dominion set ups from the workshop (that's what I meant by "app" in my previous post).  It has all the expansions and tokens (and yes, I own all the physical copies myself).  My question is, I'm not sure how to get the seasons cards into the playing arena along with all the other cards on the table.  Is there some place in TS where you can add elements to the game that you have previously saved?  What I mean is, I saved the seasons deck in the deckbuilder, but I'm not sure how to access it in the actual TS simulator. 
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Nflickner

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #559 on: May 17, 2016, 10:04:09 pm »
+1

On a random note, I just purchased Tabletop simulator, and I think I correctly uploaded the seasons file that CL posted earlier in the thread, but I don't know how to access it in an actual Dominion app to play with in Tabletop Sim.  How do I find it in the game?  I know you've worked with it before Asper, so I'm hoping you will be able to help me with my query.  Thanks :)
I was going to get TS but I'm waiting till it goes on sale. I'd love to play with you when I get it!

It's on sale right now for only ten bucks fifty percent off at humble bundle!  https://www.humblebundle.com/store/tabletop-simulator
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junkers

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #560 on: May 18, 2016, 05:19:36 am »
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The other Seasons are not as tight, but here's the thought behind them: If Spring is opening, Summer is buildup. In Fall (Autumn for the classy ones), you should have your deck running and doing your last preparations to green. Winter is where you green and your deck slowly degrades. And second Spring, well, it's not strictly the same pattern as the first, but still has a similarity: A relatively weak deck with quite a few VP cards. Of course, second Spring still isn't as clearly defined as the first. Which isn't that much of a problem, because first, you don't often get there. Second, if you do, it's probably because you are playing a special kind of kingdom, such as a slog, and then most of the other things don't apply as much either. And: The fact that you might run into a second Spring creates an interesting turning point. If we had the year take 24 turns, it would very, very rarely happen to get into year two. With 20 turns, it feels like something that might happen, and an experienced player might be able to guess it beforehand.

Thanks for the summary, Asper.

I figured that, once set, re-balancing the pros and cons for each individual card based on seasons would be a nightmare. And this is very thematic, without restricting you to a single year: a second spring may pop up, and you may have to deal with it.

TTS

Can only be used with a GabeSoft account? No thanks.

Seasons might be the excuse I need to get to grips with VASSAL...
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #561 on: May 18, 2016, 05:46:37 am »
+1

On a random ote, I just purchased Tabletop simulator, and I think I correctly uploaded the seasons file that CL posted earlier in the thread, but I don't know how to access it in an actual Dominion app to play with in Tabletop Sim.  How do I find it in the game?  I know you've worked with it before Asper, so I'm hoping you will be able to help me with my query.  Thanks :)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Dominion app". TS has no apps. It has elements, like cards, tokens and so on, and you can drag them around and do stuff with them. It's a physics simulator. Like with actual cards, you can either use them to actually play the game, or just throw them in another player's face. Long story short, TS just loads the elements and knows no rules, therefore what you are looking for is not an app, but the actual components, like cards and tokens, which you should be able to find in the TS Workshop. You can also just copy a game when playing with somebody who already has it, or at least i imagine you should be able to do that. And of course i encourage you to buy/own the games you download.

Yeah, I'm familiar with how TS works in terms of how it is a physics engine.  I've loaded one of the Dominion set ups from the workshop (that's what I meant by "app" in my previous post).  It has all the expansions and tokens (and yes, I own all the physical copies myself).  My question is, I'm not sure how to get the seasons cards into the playing arena along with all the other cards on the table.  Is there some place in TS where you can add elements to the game that you have previously saved?  What I mean is, I saved the seasons deck in the deckbuilder, but I'm not sure how to access it in the actual TS simulator.

While running TS, you need to load any table (preferrably your Dominion table), and then select "Host" -> "Chest" -> "Custom" -> "Deck". The first two should be accessible from the main selection visible at the top of the screen on any table, somewhere in the middle, and should open a big window showing several previews for components you can load into your game. One of those is "Custom", and when you click there, you should be able to select "deck" in a smaller window. This is where you can load the files into the game. You could also google "tabletop simulator custom deck", they made a video to explain it.
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Nflickner

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #562 on: May 18, 2016, 09:36:08 am »
0


TTS

Can only be used with a GabeSoft account? No thanks.

Seasons might be the excuse I need to get to grips with VASSAL...
I'm not sure what Gabesoft is, but I don't remember needing an account with them.  You do need a Steam account for it, but that is it I think.  It's a beautiful little simulator
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Nflickner

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #563 on: May 18, 2016, 09:39:51 am »
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On a random ote, I just purchased Tabletop simulator, and I think I correctly uploaded the seasons file that CL posted earlier in the thread, but I don't know how to access it in an actual Dominion app to play with in Tabletop Sim.  How do I find it in the game?  I know you've worked with it before Asper, so I'm hoping you will be able to help me with my query.  Thanks :)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Dominion app". TS has no apps. It has elements, like cards, tokens and so on, and you can drag them around and do stuff with them. It's a physics simulator. Like with actual cards, you can either use them to actually play the game, or just throw them in another player's face. Long story short, TS just loads the elements and knows no rules, therefore what you are looking for is not an app, but the actual components, like cards and tokens, which you should be able to find in the TS Workshop. You can also just copy a game when playing with somebody who already has it, or at least i imagine you should be able to do that. And of course i encourage you to buy/own the games you download.

Yeah, I'm familiar with how TS works in terms of how it is a physics engine.  I've loaded one of the Dominion set ups from the workshop (that's what I meant by "app" in my previous post).  It has all the expansions and tokens (and yes, I own all the physical copies myself).  My question is, I'm not sure how to get the seasons cards into the playing arena along with all the other cards on the table.  Is there some place in TS where you can add elements to the game that you have previously saved?  What I mean is, I saved the seasons deck in the deckbuilder, but I'm not sure how to access it in the actual TS simulator.

While running TS, you need to load any table (preferrably your Dominion table), and then select "Host" -> "Chest" -> "Custom" -> "Deck". The first two should be accessible from the main selection visible at the top of the screen on any table, somewhere in the middle, and should open a big window showing several previews for components you can load into your game. One of those is "Custom", and when you click there, you should be able to select "deck" in a smaller window. This is where you can load the files into the game. You could also google "tabletop simulator custom deck", they made a video to explain it.

Thanks asper, that helps alot.  I finally got it to work.  Seasons is now part of it!   The only trouble I'm having is with loading the seasons changer mat.  Whenever I try to load it into TTS, it is way too small. 
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #564 on: May 18, 2016, 09:57:18 am »
+1

On a random ote, I just purchased Tabletop simulator, and I think I correctly uploaded the seasons file that CL posted earlier in the thread, but I don't know how to access it in an actual Dominion app to play with in Tabletop Sim.  How do I find it in the game?  I know you've worked with it before Asper, so I'm hoping you will be able to help me with my query.  Thanks :)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Dominion app". TS has no apps. It has elements, like cards, tokens and so on, and you can drag them around and do stuff with them. It's a physics simulator. Like with actual cards, you can either use them to actually play the game, or just throw them in another player's face. Long story short, TS just loads the elements and knows no rules, therefore what you are looking for is not an app, but the actual components, like cards and tokens, which you should be able to find in the TS Workshop. You can also just copy a game when playing with somebody who already has it, or at least i imagine you should be able to do that. And of course i encourage you to buy/own the games you download.

Yeah, I'm familiar with how TS works in terms of how it is a physics engine.  I've loaded one of the Dominion set ups from the workshop (that's what I meant by "app" in my previous post).  It has all the expansions and tokens (and yes, I own all the physical copies myself).  My question is, I'm not sure how to get the seasons cards into the playing arena along with all the other cards on the table.  Is there some place in TS where you can add elements to the game that you have previously saved?  What I mean is, I saved the seasons deck in the deckbuilder, but I'm not sure how to access it in the actual TS simulator.

While running TS, you need to load any table (preferrably your Dominion table), and then select "Host" -> "Chest" -> "Custom" -> "Deck". The first two should be accessible from the main selection visible at the top of the screen on any table, somewhere in the middle, and should open a big window showing several previews for components you can load into your game. One of those is "Custom", and when you click there, you should be able to select "deck" in a smaller window. This is where you can load the files into the game. You could also google "tabletop simulator custom deck", they made a video to explain it.

Thanks asper, that helps alot.  I finally got it to work.  Seasons is now part of it!   The only trouble I'm having is with loading the seasons changer mat.  Whenever I try to load it into TTS, it is way too small.

Try, um, hovering your mouse over it and pressing "+"? Or maybe try another way to load it into the game, for example as a custom board (if you didn't already do that).
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #565 on: May 18, 2016, 10:07:27 am »
+3

And it's here where I should probably go back and read the rest of the thread to here the dev's justifications for why it's a one year game, and why each season is five turns exactly...

I think the rationale is simply that most dominion games last around 18-22 turns.

That's part of it, but not the only reason. It's true that a standard game of Dominion, or at least a game played by halfway skilled players, will be over after about that number of turns. In fact, during playtesting we made the experience that only few games with certain kinds of kingdoms enter the second year. But of course the game is not bound to end after one year.

Still, you can map Seasons to game phases rather well. The first Season is your opening phase. 5 turns ensures you will always be able to play your opening buys in Spring, unless of course some Brigands or other criminal scum discards them. (This is also the reason why i personally prefer to have cards that do something special when played in Spring to cost $4 or less, so you can always open with them. Well, as you see, we have an exception, too.) So, here's an advantage of 5. If we made it 4, not only would the game usually end in Spring instead of Winter, but we also had some people not be able to play their opening buys in Spring. This sucks for some cards, like Student, or Sojourner. What about 6? Well, it just feels too long, the Seasons drift apart, and there's no real advantage over 5. And, well, 5 is a nice number to remember.

The other Seasons are not as tight, but here's the thought behind them: If Spring is opening, Summer is buildup. In Fall (Autumn for the classy ones), you should have your deck running and doing your last preparations to green. Winter is where you green and your deck slowly degrades. And second Spring, well, it's not strictly the same pattern as the first, but still has a similarity: A relatively weak deck with quite a few VP cards. Of course, second Spring still isn't as clearly defined as the first. Which isn't that much of a problem, because first, you don't often get there. Second, if you do, it's probably because you are playing a special kind of kingdom, such as a slog, and then most of the other things don't apply as much either. And: The fact that you might run into a second Spring creates an interesting turning point. If we had the year take 24 turns, it would very, very rarely happen to get into year two. With 20 turns, it feels like something that might happen, and an experienced player might be able to guess it beforehand.

Of course, all that's theory. If you try to set up a kingdom designed to prove how useful Scout is, you might not be finished after year 3...

Thanks Asper, the last part about the different seasons and what they are generally for is quite helpful.  In my games of Seasons, we found that Spring went extremely fast, to the point where we almost decided to adust it so that the marker doesn't move after the first turn, but then we kept to the rules :)  The other seasons then slow down quite a bit.

Spring goes by fast because two of those turns are just putting money on the table and buying stuff. Heck, in some games, there's no $2 and a few of those turns might be over immediately. From a gameplay perspective, you need to be aware of the fact that you practically must open with a Season card if you want to play it in Spring. I mean, unless one of your opening buys is Warehouse or something, or you hope to draw it as one of the three second-shuffle cards on turn 5... It's true Spring feels very short, but there's a philosophical nihilist reasoning behind that. One Season just has to include the opening, so let's make that season about the opening alone (pretty much).
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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #566 on: May 18, 2016, 10:11:10 am »
+1

On a random ote, I just purchased Tabletop simulator, and I think I correctly uploaded the seasons file that CL posted earlier in the thread, but I don't know how to access it in an actual Dominion app to play with in Tabletop Sim.  How do I find it in the game?  I know you've worked with it before Asper, so I'm hoping you will be able to help me with my query.  Thanks :)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Dominion app". TS has no apps. It has elements, like cards, tokens and so on, and you can drag them around and do stuff with them. It's a physics simulator. Like with actual cards, you can either use them to actually play the game, or just throw them in another player's face. Long story short, TS just loads the elements and knows no rules, therefore what you are looking for is not an app, but the actual components, like cards and tokens, which you should be able to find in the TS Workshop. You can also just copy a game when playing with somebody who already has it, or at least i imagine you should be able to do that. And of course i encourage you to buy/own the games you download.

Yeah, I'm familiar with how TS works in terms of how it is a physics engine.  I've loaded one of the Dominion set ups from the workshop (that's what I meant by "app" in my previous post).  It has all the expansions and tokens (and yes, I own all the physical copies myself).  My question is, I'm not sure how to get the seasons cards into the playing arena along with all the other cards on the table.  Is there some place in TS where you can add elements to the game that you have previously saved?  What I mean is, I saved the seasons deck in the deckbuilder, but I'm not sure how to access it in the actual TS simulator.

While running TS, you need to load any table (preferrably your Dominion table), and then select "Host" -> "Chest" -> "Custom" -> "Deck". The first two should be accessible from the main selection visible at the top of the screen on any table, somewhere in the middle, and should open a big window showing several previews for components you can load into your game. One of those is "Custom", and when you click there, you should be able to select "deck" in a smaller window. This is where you can load the files into the game. You could also google "tabletop simulator custom deck", they made a video to explain it.

Thanks asper, that helps alot.  I finally got it to work.  Seasons is now part of it!   The only trouble I'm having is with loading the seasons changer mat.  Whenever I try to load it into TTS, it is way too small.

Try, um, hovering your mouse over it and pressing "+"? Or maybe try another way to load it into the game, for example as a custom board (if you didn't already do that).

Thanks, that worked like a charm :)  I made a randomizer deck with all the cards plus seasons--it is beautiful. 
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Nflickner

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #567 on: May 24, 2016, 01:39:23 am »
+1



Here is my new mock up of my Serf.  Would love to hear thoughts
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 10:15:44 am by Nflickner »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #568 on: May 24, 2016, 06:24:22 am »
0



Here is my new mock up of my Serf.  Would love to hear thoughts

I like that it's a Traveller that's worse if you pick it up as part of your opening. Nice idea that uses the Season mechanic in a simple but meaningful way. Not sure it's enough to discourage buying it, but it gives waiting another shuffle a small buff. Although of course whether it's a buff or not depends on what exactly Outlaw does. If it's terminal draw, the Silver is (more often) good. If it's a Village, the Silver is usually bad, and i'd intentionally pick it up in Spring so i don't get a Silver. Nice idea either way.

By the way, you can have your images be smaller and only become large on click by using "width=600" or whatever number inside your image tag (quote me to see how it works).
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Nflickner

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #569 on: May 24, 2016, 11:02:54 am »
+1

I like that it's a Traveller that's worse if you pick it up as part of your opening. Nice idea that uses the Season mechanic in a simple but meaningful way. Not sure it's enough to discourage buying it, but it gives waiting another shuffle a small buff. Although of course whether it's a buff or not depends on what exactly Outlaw does. If it's terminal draw, the Silver is (more often) good. If it's a Village, the Silver is usually bad, and i'd intentionally pick it up in Spring so i don't get a Silver. Nice idea either way.
Thanks Asper,  Here is a new idea that I've touched up:

It makes it more playable later on for a variety of decks.  It also gives a bigger penalty if you want to play it in Spring.  The idea is that you want to play it as early as possible because the later Travellers are kind of a race, but it sucks to play it early. 
I also remembered to add my setup clause for the Dragon card, which is explained in my first post further up.  It's a card that attacks everyone in the game periodically through the seasons until it is destroyed by the last card in the traveller line. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 11:47:16 am by Nflickner »
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #570 on: June 25, 2016, 12:04:12 am »
+1

So, I just read all of the cards in the set for the first time in a while. A few things about them that I would like to mention:

A) I feel as though Sanitarium should cost . Yes, it can be better than village, but, not strictly better more often than not. The on-gain is nice, yes, but only works in early game. yes, early trashing is powerful, but it loses that ability when, or just after, junking would start. After that, it is strictly worse than village, as it can often function as a necropolis if there is any other draw in your deck at all. I would think that, although the jump from to is not that big, preventing players from opening Sanitarium/Sanitarium is not worth it, considering what is mentioned above.

B) Conversely, I think that Ballroom should be priced higher at , as it is strictly better than BoM. It gains you a card with the same restrictions as BoM, then plays it, thus acting as a BoM that gains the card it mimics. Granted, being a TR in the later half of the game might mitigate this issue, but I think it would be a solid if you restricted it to cards costing or less as opposed to cards costing less than it. Of course, there's the issue of milling the ballroom pile in one turn with cost reducers...if that comes up too often, that could be an issue, but otherwise it might be fun.

C) I think the first Bailiff is marginally more powerful than the second, as it allows the gaining of silver (or CotR, or loan...you get the picture) if used to gain estates.

Also, just a passing thought, have you ever thought about doing recommended sets of ten for Seasons?
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #571 on: June 25, 2016, 02:22:18 am »
+2

So, I just read all of the cards in the set for the first time in a while. A few things about them that I would like to mention:

A) I feel as though Sanitarium should cost . Yes, it can be better than village, but, not strictly better more often than not. The on-gain is nice, yes, but only works in early game. yes, early trashing is powerful, but it loses that ability when, or just after, junking would start. After that, it is strictly worse than village, as it can often function as a necropolis if there is any other draw in your deck at all. I would think that, although the jump from to is not that big, preventing players from opening Sanitarium/Sanitarium is not worth it, considering what is mentioned above.
I don't like players to be able to open Sanitarium/Sanitarium. Trashing two Estates prior to the first shuffle is enormous and warps the game too much for my taste, and it's basically an auto-buy. Also there are cards with worse on-gain effects which still warrant a $1 cost increase (Nomad Camp). Although Sanitarium isn't technically a Village+, it has the potential to draw multiple cards when you reduce your handsize beforehand. It comes up more often than you probably think and we find it reasonably priced for that matter.

B) Conversely, I think that Ballroom should be priced higher at , as it is strictly better than BoM. It gains you a card with the same restrictions as BoM, then plays it, thus acting as a BoM that gains the card it mimics. Granted, being a TR in the later half of the game might mitigate this issue, but I think it would be a solid if you restricted it to cards costing or less as opposed to cards costing less than it. Of course, there's the issue of milling the ballroom pile in one turn with cost reducers...if that comes up too often, that could be an issue, but otherwise it might be fun.
Ballroom is not strictly better than BoM (but it's stronger in many cases). While you can play BoM as some cheap action cards which are only useful in the early game (Curpurse, Chapel, ...) and then switch to something different, you can't effectively do that with Ballroom because those cards end up in your deck. Yes, this will often still be an advantage as you can trash them for benefit or what have you. But upon playtesting we didn't feel any balancing issues with Ballroom. On a board with Ballroom and BoM, you will most certainly play Ballroom because it's usually better. But there are other cards that have a similar relationship with each other, e.g. you would usually buy Margrave or Torturer over Rabble. Ballroom might work at $6, too but I think it's less attractive and we don't have the time to do more tests at $6. But you can feel free to test alternative versions.

C) I think the first Bailiff is marginally more powerful than the second, as it allows the gaining of silver (or CotR, or loan...you get the picture) if used to gain estates.
Yes, the first one is obviously better as it's more flexible. But the wording has its problems and the second version avoids those. We want Bailiff to be primarily a victory card gainer in the second half of the game anyway.

Also, just a passing thought, have you ever thought about doing recommended sets of ten for Seasons?
No but that might be interesting. I have never 'designed' a kingdom before and it's probably not easy to do. Again, I don't know if Asper and I will find the time to test such kingdoms. Please be our guest to come up with a good kingdom involving Season cards; I'd like to see that.

Thanks for your feedback. We like to think of our set as finalized for the most part. Some cards come in two versions so you can play with whichever you prefer. Both are valid cards.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 02:29:04 am by Co0kieL0rd »
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #572 on: June 25, 2016, 02:47:49 am »
+2

Something else I just noticed with bailiff. The first half simply says "trash 3 cards..." as opposed to "trash up to 3 cards..." was this intentional?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #573 on: June 25, 2016, 07:50:05 am »
+1

I do think Sanitarium would be fine at $3 if it didn't have the on-gain, because there are both situations where it's much better (discard attacks, discard for benefit, non-drawing cards, trashers) and situations where it's much worse than Village (handsize increasers). However, it does have the on-gain, and as you usually pay $4 for a Villages either way, so we went with thr path that made it good without being mandatory.

BoM will never clog your deck with Terminals, Ballroom will. I admit Ballroom is better, but far from being strictly better. Also, if you get it too late, you just paid $5 for a Throne Room.

Yes, Bailiff demands 3 cards, no less.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Seasons
« Reply #574 on: July 13, 2016, 03:21:01 pm »
+2

I do think Sanitarium would be fine at $3 if it didn't have the on-gain, because there are both situations where it's much better (discard attacks, discard for benefit, non-drawing cards, trashers) and situations where it's much worse than Village (handsize increasers). However, it does have the on-gain, and as you usually pay $4 for a Villages either way, so we went with thr path that made it good without being mandatory.

BoM will never clog your deck with Terminals, Ballroom will. I admit Ballroom is better, but far from being strictly better. Also, if you get it too late, you just paid $5 for a Throne Room.

Yes, Bailiff demands 3 cards, no less.
I actually changed sanitarium to 5 because it's too good at 4. I think nobody really realizes how good a draw to X village is. (Well, except LibraryAdventurer). Adding a sweet on-gain bonus is just the icing on the cake. It may need further changing, but I'm defiantly not using it how it is at 3, or even 4.
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